capital punishment?

[Pyro Paul]

okay now this is where i start to sound crazed and weird. but..

Though i dont care one way or the other about capital punishment(im the one that voted dont care ), i would fully agree on the usage of capital punishment against those that it is so deamed nessary on. captial punishment is an end all be all statment on those that have proved themselves too dangrous to be allowed in the world. in a sense it is not a form of revenge, even though Those that are the sufferers of the accused, they do see it as a fit of revenge.

oddly Enough Capital punishment is Deamed by the Bible as a Rightfule usage of that to be used against those that have commited sins of the highest manner of which there is no forgiveness. the predominant sin is muder.

'The house and light of god is in each and every one of us, and thou hast destroyed the house of god, a sin in which is unforgiveable. unto which thou shall be cast unto the deapths of hell, through the rite of life has been vanquished from thee.'

Also, the statment on how the system of justice is built and how it is flawed is very true. yes this is america, and yes we All have equial rights. but Some people can use those rights better than others. the ones that can not use their rights as well tend to get the raw end of the deal and often get shuffled into a cell for most of their life. its a sad truth that we must go through, there are flaws in every thing and there always will be.

and. with the saying, for every one that we got right there are a handful of wrongs that we got too. from a statistical stand point, if that one Right was still alive, the same number of wrongs would of been killed any ways if they would be left out in the world.

again another sad truth that we must deal with.

 

[Exciteher]

... oddly Enough Capital punishment is Deamed by the Bible as a Rightfule usage of that to be used against those that have commited sins of the highest manner of which there is no forgiveness. the predominant sin is muder.

There those scholars, ministers, etc. that would agree, but there are more that do not agree. The bible has many literal conflicts in it about this subject.

Also, one has to take into account the differences between Judaic doctrine (old testament) and Christian (New Testament).

Every major Christian denomination, except Southern Baptist, and all three major branches of modern Judaism have taken a policy position against the death penalty.

Is it irony that Christ himself was the the victim of the death penality? Or is it a metaphor?

And what of Christ's prayer to the Father where he asks forgiveness for his executioners, and all mankind... "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". This is the most lucid thing in the bible about the death penality.

My opposition to the death penality rests not on what religion says, it rests on three things.
1) What "the light of god" that is within me, my own spirit, says about the morality of killing.
2) The evidence that the death penality is associated with increased murder, violence etc, and the certainty that it cannot be ethically applied.
3) The logical and moral paradox that exists if one choses to permit killing for any reason.

 

[Munachi]

actually, for me part of my opposition to the death penalty is religious. it is not up to me to judge. and as you say killing someone is about the biggest sin there is - how then can you support any killing, i.e. for example the death penalty?

 

[Halo_n_horns]

I'm probably a little late to get in on this one, but I'm all for capital punishment. I'd be ecstatic about it if it didn't take so fuckin' long to get these people killed. They took a life, or several lives, they need to pay the ante.

Heck, the governement could stop using our taxes to pay for these people to live in that jail until their time comes and just sell tickets to the executions instead. They'd probably make a pretty good profit on the whole deal.

 

[HornyHenry]

The bible supports

actually, for me part of my opposition to the death penalty is religious. it is not up to me to judge. and as you say killing someone is about the biggest sin there is - how then can you support any killing, i.e. for example the death penalty?

the concept of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
The punishment has never been in question, only the judging of the crime.

 

[AppleBiter]

if they are born that way it is not their fault either...
and as for "don't blame me, blame society" - of course this alone doesn't work either, as i do think people have to take responsibility for their actions. but blaming only them, or just assuming they are all psychopaths, is making to too easy for us.

A. No one is assuming they're all psychopaths. Perhaps you missed the part where I said my major is Criminal Justice and I just got through with Criminology [The scientific study of crime, criminals, criminal behavior, and corrections]. I assure you, you don't walk into a classroom and have the prof say, "Hey, they're all psychos. Everyone go home." They are not all psychopaths or sociopaths (and I did not infer that they were), obviously, but some are.

B. "Don't blame me, blame socieity" does not apply when you're talking about someone born as a psychopath/sociopath. In that case, it is not nurture, but nature. You're actually arguing the opposite side of the issue.

 

[phoenix1224]

if they are born that way it is not their fault either...
and as for "don't blame me, blame society" - of course this alone doesn't work either, as i do think people have to take responsibility for their actions. but blaming only them, or just assuming they are all psychopaths, is making to too easy for us.

Why shouldn't we blame ONLY them?

No matter how shitty a person's life is, that person ALWAYS has a choice as to how he/she acts/reacts bacause of it.

For every case in which a person blames the life that they were born into for them becoming a criminal, you'll find another case in which a person born into the same sort of life used it as motivation for improving their situation.

A couple examples:

Judge Greg Mathis - Born and raised in a Detroit ghetto. Had some run ins with the law as a youth. Turned his life around to become a lawyer, and later, a judge with his own television show.

Jewel - Homeless, living with her family in a car. Chased her dream of becoming a successful singer/song writter... And realized that dream.

I could go on and on.

It's just amazing how our society has become sooo PC that there are people that believe that criminals shouldn't be held solely responsible for their own choices/actions.

What are we teaching our young people? That, so long as they have a "good" excuse, they don't have to take responsibility for their own actions?




FYI: I'm not assuming that they're all sociopaths/pyschopaths... I just used those as examples to prove that your statement about how criminals aren't born bad is wrong in some instances.

 

[silverwhisper]

phoenix: i think you're using "PC" a bit broadly. :>

ed

 

[Munachi]

Heck, the governement could stop using our taxes to pay for these people to live in that jail until their time comes and just sell tickets to the executions instead. They'd probably make a pretty good profit on the whole deal.

Actually, I find this sick... and again, scary. I would be as scared of the person that pays to go to see an execution as I would be of the murderer that gets executed...

 

[Munachi]

the concept of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
The punishment has never been in question, only the judging of the crime.

an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is in the old testament. Jesus changed quite a lot of things... and then of course in a prayer that in my church at least is quite central (our father in heaven or something like that in english, i obviously say it in german) one line goes "and forgive us our sins as we forgive those that sinned against us" - for me, christianity is all about forgiveness.

 

[Munachi]

You're actually arguing the opposite side of the issue.

actually what I am trying to say is that, in neither case, be they born that way or be they raised that way, i could support the death penalty.

 

[Munachi]

Why shouldn't we blame ONLY them?

No matter how shitty a person's life is, that person ALWAYS has a choice as to how he/she acts/reacts bacause of it.

For every case in which a person blames the life that they were born into for them becoming a criminal, you'll find another case in which a person born into the same sort of life used it as motivation for improving their situation.

A couple examples:

Judge Greg Mathis - Born and raised in a Detroit ghetto. Had some run ins with the law as a youth. Turned his life around to become a lawyer, and later, a judge with his own television show.

Jewel - Homeless, living with her family in a car. Chased her dream of becoming a successful singer/song writter... And realized that dream.

I could go on and on.

It's just amazing how our society has become sooo PC that there are people that believe that criminals shouldn't be held solely responsible for their own choices/actions.

What are we teaching our young people? That, so long as they have a "good" excuse, they don't have to take responsibility for their own actions?




FYI: I'm not assuming that they're all sociopaths/pyschopaths... I just used those as examples to prove that your statement about how criminals aren't born bad is wrong in some instances.

different people will react differently to the same situation. also, the influences that make people turn "bad" do not have to do only with being poor. ANd i am not saying people don't have responsibility for what they do - but i am saying "we" as "society" should also look for our own responsibility just as they should for theirs. Disposing of them in the way of killing them makes it too easy for us - and this teaches our youth something as well - that killing someone can solve a problem.

 

[karndav]

I absolutely believe in the death penalty! Especially incases like Jessica Lunsford down in Florida and Lacey Peterson. Not all murderers need the death penalty but some certainly do!!! I definitely think the punishment should fit the crime. The guy who kidnapped Jessica (what was his name...John Couey??) I think he should be buried alive like Jessica was! Crimes like that against innocent children make me sick and I have absolutely no sympathy for the people who commit them at all!! The man who kidnapped the two Groene children, I hope he is punished to the fullest extent of the law!

 

[rgraham666]

I don't support the death penalty for three reasons.

First, we can't fix mistakes. And by my standards, every time we execute a person innocent of the crime they were executed for we are as a society and individuals responsible for murder in the first degree.

Second, the penalty is not going to be carried out fairly. Rich, white males do not end up on Death Row. John du Pont is not on Death Row. Neither are those kids who blew up their parents (The Rodrigues brothers?)

Here in Canada, I know neither Helmuth Buxbaum or Colin Thatcher would be in danger of hanging by the neck until dead.

Thirdly, capital punishment is a political tool, not a judicial one. If you look at most places on this planet that have capital punishment, death is more likely to be dealt out for opposition to the government, real or imagined, than for other things. In fact, in such places, if you're a cold blooded murderer, you're very likely to have a position in their legal system.

Even the States, in my opinion, uses capital punishment for political purposes. Last time I looked, blacks and Hispanics made up about 16% of the general population. And they made up about 48% of the population of Death Row. I regard that as a pretty definite political statement.

I'm lucky enough to live in a place without capital punishment. There is often talk of bringing it back though.

Should this happen, I am going to push for two changes.

First, the method of execution will be a hollow point pistol bullet in the back of the head. Why? To fix the responsibility. Our current methods are designed to deflect any responsibility. We either use an executioner or some method, like one blank in a rifle, so that we can say, "I may not have been the one responsible." I'm not going to voice my displeasure with that attitude.

Second, I will fill the job of executioner by conscription! Anyone of us could get a letter telling us that on a particular day we are expected to march someone out, kneel them down and stick a cap in them.

I won't do it. I'll go to jail first. How many people would be able to do it? Could you kill a stranger, just because you're ordered. What if it's a case you're aware of, and have a lot of doubts about? Could you still do it?

Most people, in my opinion, are in favour of capital punishment because it happens to 'those people, not like us'. Capital punishment only happens to abstractions. I believe my changes would make the abstract real, and thus, I hope, more difficult for people to support.

 

[phoenix1224]

different people will react differently to the same situation. also, the influences that make people turn "bad" do not have to do only with being poor. ANd i am not saying people don't have responsibility for what they do - but i am saying "we" as "society" should also look for our own responsibility just as they should for theirs. Disposing of them in the way of killing them makes it too easy for us - and this teaches our youth something as well - that killing someone can solve a problem.

I'll put it at bluntly as I possibly can...

We (as a society) have absolutely no problem putting down a rabid dog so, why should a rabid human being be any different?


And yes, I understand that not only poverty influences people... But still, blaming others for YOUR actions is just plain bull shit.

I grew up in a family that struggled to make ends meet (nothing like getting made fun of at school for wearing hand-me-downs). My mother was both extremely overbearing AND borderline abusive (there was a LOT of yelling and I got hit quite often... she definitely has some anger management issues).

When I got older, I used this upbringing as an excuse to be a loser... Dropping out of college, working dead end jobs, getting involved with drugs, getting into trouble with the law (I'm a convicted felon), getting fired from the dead end jobs, etc.

But, eventually, I came to the realization that, although I had no control over the conditions of my childhood, as an adult, the ONLY person responsible for my situation was ME and it was ONLY ME that would be able to turn it around... So, I began to dig myself out of the HUGE hole that I dug myself into... I'm still struggling, but I'm well on my way.

When people ask me that political question "are you better off now than you were ten years ago?", I'm one of the people that can answer "yes".

 

[Weenieschnitzel]

bump.

 

[Weenieschnitzel]

First, we can't fix mistakes. And by my standards, every time we execute a person innocent of the crime they were executed for we are as a society and individuals responsible for murder in the first degree.

my words!!!!

 

[SlickTony]

I heard today where they sentenced that Rader guy, the BTK man, to ten consecutive life sentences with no possiblity of parole for 40 years. True, the guy will be pushing 100 by then and probably couldn't bind, torture and kill anyone if he wanted to, but what was wrong with no possiblity of parole, EVER? They'll probably have to keep him separate from all the other murderers, who are bound to pass judgment on him.

 

[Exciteher]

.... but what was wrong with no possiblity of parole, EVER?....

Nothing wrong with that.

So why was that not done in this case?

Because, in their supreme wisdom, the legislature of that state wrote the statute to enforce parole for murder convictions! In other words, the elected representatives in that state... wrote the law that the judge was bound by in sentencing Rader. Don't like parole for murderers? Write your representative and tell them to change the law! Or elect new ones! This is a political problem... not a judicial one.

 

[Exciteher]

Pardon comes 60 years after her execution
One-day trial in 1945 sent Georgia woman to electric chair

By CARLOS CAMPOS ccampos@ajc.com and BILL TORPY btorpy@ajc.com
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 08/16/05

On March 5, 1945, Lena Baker sat in Georgia's electric chair and said, "I am ready to meet my God."

Moments earlier the black woman, convicted of killing a white man, had said: "What I done, I did in self-defense or I would have been killed myself. Where I was, I could not overcome it."

Sixty years later, the Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles has agreed with her. The board plans to issue a formal pardon later this month in a ceremony for the only woman the state executed in the 20th century. The pardon was made public Monday.

A parole board's decision in 1945 to deny Baker clemency and allow her execution was "a grievous error, as this case called out for mercy," the pardon signed by all five current board members said.

Roosevelt Curry, Baker's great-nephew, said he cried when the board informed him of its action. He had campaigned for the pardon.

"Now we can all cry tears of joy," Curry, 61, said Monday. He said the case signified how life was stacked against black people at the time. "She had nothing and no one stood by her," he said.

"It's late but it's on time," Curry said. "This case was passed to me. I'm hoping I can pass this on to my family."

The pardon does not declare Baker's innocence but suggests she "could have been charged with voluntary manslaughter, rather than murder, for the death of E.B. Knight." Officials said the average sentence for voluntary manslaughter is 15 years in prison.

Testimony from the August 1944 trial, in the southwest Georgia town of Cuthbert, showed Baker, 44, and 67-year-old gristmill owner Ernest B. Knight had been drinking and may have struggled. Knight died of a gunshot wound behind his left ear.

Baker had worked for Knight, and the two often drank together and had a sexual relationship that caused neighbors to complain in those days of segregation. Knight's son, Eugene, testified he had warned Baker to stay away from his father. Later, he told the court he found the two together and "I took her and beat her until I just did leave life in her."

Baker, in rambling testimony, said she and the elder Knight had been drinking that day and he had locked her in his gristmill. She said she pulled a pistol away from him and then shot him after he threatened her with a metal pipe.

Baker, a mother of three, was tried, convicted and sentenced in one day by an all-white, all-male jury. Baker's picture and her last words are displayed near the retired electric chair at a museum at Georgia State Prison in Reidsville.

Garland R. Hunt, the parole board's vice chairman, said Monday the board did not see the pardon as striking a blow against racial injustice or righting a historical wrong.

"We just felt that this was a situation that was unique," Hunt said. "We felt it was a good thing to do for the sake of the family."

Baker's posthumous pardon is only the third such act by the state parole board in its 62-year history.

In 1992, missionaries Samuel Austin Worcestor and Elihu Butler were pardoned. The men were convicted in 1831 and spent four years in prison for protesting the removal of Cherokees from North Georgia.

In the other case, Leo Frank, the manager of an Atlanta pencil factory, was pardoned in 1986 for the 1913 murder of a 13-year-old female employee. Frank, who was Jewish, was lynched by a mob in 1915 after his death sentence was commuted.

The effort to clear Baker's name began several years ago when Curry met John Cole Vodicka, who runs the Americus-based Prison and Jail Project. Curry had worked to locate his great-aunt's unmarked grave, and Vodicka, who visits rural courthouses in an effort to look out for defendants' rights, had come across the transcript of her trial.

"It's not often in our work we get to see something bear fruit," Vodicka said. "If you step forward and speak up and challenge the system for fairness, it can work. Maybe it will give hope to others that wrongs can be righted."

Curry grew up in Cuthbert, the southwest Georgia town where Baker lived, and had heard family members talk about the case over the years. He said one of Baker's daughters is still alive but she is elderly and does not want to talk about the case.

"It destroyed her life," Curry said. "If that was your mother and she was baked like a turkey, you wouldn't want to think about that."

Curry said he does not know whether the family will seek restitution.

Martin Embry, a deacon at Mount Vernon Missionary Baptist Church, the 130-year-old rural church where Baker was buried, showed Curry the location of his great-aunt's grave, allowing him to erect a gravestone. Embry said Monday he was glad the parole board acted but said too much time had passed.

"There ain't much to be said," Embry said. "Most people are dead and gone. Most young people don't care or don't know."
Minni Lewis, a retired teacher who was a classmate of Baker's late son, James, said the board's action was important in marking the final chapter of a sordid tale.

"It needs to be told," she said. "It's a part of our history. The young people should know about this. It happened."

 

[Weenieschnitzel]

but the woman is dead. ALso this ceremony can not bring her back to life.

And this thing is the reason why I am against the dp in every way.

And Iif I hear "the electric chair was designed for human killing", I am shuddering.

 

[silverwhisper]

uh...hate to tell you this, but the chair was indeed specifically designed for that purpose. i'm just saying... :>

ed

 

[Weenieschnitzel]

uh...hate to tell you this, but the chair was indeed specifically designed for that purpose. i'm just saying... :>

ed

I know, I see no other purpose for it.

 

[silverwhisper]

i don't know if you're aware of this, but thomas edison and nikola tesla (and westinghouse) were the champions for DC and AC electrical power, respectively. edison's campaign ultimately lost, but not before edison paraded around the fact that electric chairs were powered by AC current. if you're interested, you can read more about that here.

ed

 

[Munachi]

I'll put it at bluntly as I possibly can...

We (as a society) have absolutely no problem putting down a rabid dog so, why should a rabid human being be any different?


And yes, I understand that not only poverty influences people... But still, blaming others for YOUR actions is just plain bull shit.

I grew up in a family that struggled to make ends meet (nothing like getting made fun of at school for wearing hand-me-downs). My mother was both extremely overbearing AND borderline abusive (there was a LOT of yelling and I got hit quite often... she definitely has some anger management issues).

When I got older, I used this upbringing as an excuse to be a loser... Dropping out of college, working dead end jobs, getting involved with drugs, getting into trouble with the law (I'm a convicted felon), getting fired from the dead end jobs, etc.

But, eventually, I came to the realization that, although I had no control over the conditions of my childhood, as an adult, the ONLY person responsible for my situation was ME and it was ONLY ME that would be able to turn it around... So, I began to dig myself out of the HUGE hole that I dug myself into... I'm still struggling, but I'm well on my way.

When people ask me that political question "are you better off now than you were ten years ago?", I'm one of the people that can answer "yes".

well i stay with my opinion. first of all i see a difference between a human and a dog, and secondly, in case that by rabid dog you don't mean one with rabis, but one that goes wild killing people i would think that in a lot of cases is due to misbreading and cruesome training done by humans - so i still find killing the dog quite gruesome and very much hope laws controlling just what people do with these animals that brings them so far are made more strict.

i agree that people are responsible also for their own actions - i feel i am for mine. but also i think it is very difficult to judge someone in whose very situation i haven't been... and as i said different people due to being different react different to the same situation. so great that you had the strength of mind to get out of all this. others don't. and more than anything i feel sorry for them.