Character Feedback Request on 500 word Incest Story

[wildsweetone]

ok learning slowly but surely... i can't have a male in a half erect state with cock pointing down, drizzling a little. it's not the stereotypical norm methinks.

you mean to say real men don't wear tight jeans, leather jackets and no helmets? *teasing*

imho, you appear to have had a well spent youth... look where you are today, certainly much the wiser

how can i think straight to write with thoughts like these crossing my mind constantly? rofl

 

[jon.hayworth]

Got it because to an extent "show" relies on stereotypes. Therefore the shorter the story the more the "show" the greater the reliance on using the readers stereotypical images.

This is great you have really made me think about the "art"

jon

 

[wildsweetone]

i too have found this thread interesting in many different ways. thank you for sticking with me. i'm not sure i like the idea of using stereotypes though.

maybe it's a case of just letting enough information out about the characters description to allow us to visualise that possible stereotype. by adding a tiny piece extra, i can adjust the picture. at least that sounds good in theory.

hmmm

The motorbike stood on its stand beside the minivan, silver helmet balanced on the seat. The leather jacket was shrugged off and thrown, landing haphazardly on the hook inside the minivan door. Denim material was pulled away from the body, the tight fit taking a moment to be adjusted comfortably for the standing position. The hand moved to the groin, knees bending a little to free the area of restriction.

male or female?

 

[superlittlegirl]

oh, this is fun!

wildsweetone,

I would be convinced the character were male, except for the silver helmet. The first time I read it through, I thought it could go either way. Then the second time around, that silver helmet really stood out and said "woman" (I've never seen a man wearing a silver one-- but I'm also pretty sheltered, so that could explain that....) I do know that almost anyone who gets off of a motorcycle, regardless of parts, has to readjust the jeans-crotch. I know I would. So my vote is for female. But then again, maybe I'm just thinking back affectionately to my first girlfriend who rode a bike.

PM the answer to the quiz so as not to ruin it for everybody?

--Freya

 

[Ray Dario]

WSO;

maybe it's a case of just letting enough information out about the characters description to allow us to visualise that possible stereotype. by adding a tiny piece extra, i can adjust the picture. at least that sounds good in theory.

Uh, oh, you are turning to the dark side! Give up these thoughts of description, that way leads to sorrow!

*****

About the twist ending: My fault, I didn't say what I meant very well. I wasn't talking about a twist at the end. I love stories that have a cool twist at the end.

An real example of what I hate would be a story where in the story a character named Carl is shot and killed. There is no hint of Carl being anything other than a normal man. Then at the end the writer "reveals" that Carl was an android and was never really dead.

This is a gimmick not a twist. The writer should have dropped clues as to Carl's real nature, set up the ending, not so that it was obvious to the reader but so when the ending was revealed the reader goes, "Cool, Now I get it.". The writer should not have left the reader to assume Carl was a real man. Otherwise the ending seems contrived and hollow.

*****

About men and decreasing flacidity. I wear 501 Blues and when my big 10 inch starts waking up, I start hurting! It isn't a choice to "play pocket pool" it's a necessity! I could no more stand there enduring the agony of a constricted erection than I could hold my hand into a fire and let it burn.

However in your story, it is a little lapse and honestly I didn't pick up on it. As far as dripping down his leg, I just assumed you were showing the extreamely large amount of ejaculate he produced. I would think it more unlikely, although my female characters do it, that a woman could produce enough fluid, without urinating, to drip down her leg.

And about the Silver helmet. I've seen lots of boys wearing white or silver helmets. Most of them are "motocross" wannabes riding Kawasaki's or Honda's and wearing the helmet their mommy bought them. I think a man riding a real bike and wearing a silver helmet would probably get the shit beat out of him, at least around here.

Ray

 

[wildsweetone]

ohhhhh the dark side...

oh Ray! do you really think I can't do a decent character description? you may well be correct.

i don't think i've read anything like the gimmick work you're talking about. i don't think it sounds like something that i'd enjoy discovering at the end either.

what on earth are 501 Blues? and how tall are you?

i'm still amazed at how much we each insert into stories we read.

wow... it sure sounds like you live in an extremely biased/prejudiced place. forgive me if i'm wrong, but why the hell beat up on someone who is wearing a silver helmet? ok i know you were most likely joking. but far out, the mere thought makes me wanna spit tacks.

 

[superlittlegirl]

Ray and I are both from the southern part of the U.S. (he's from Texas, right?) so maybe it's the cultural bias of the South that makes us think silver helmets are not for 'real men'. Here in Georgia, I simply do not see men wearing silver helmets. Their ladies frequently do, however.

I know this is just as absurd as pink=girly and blue=for boys, but it's just something I've noticed. I'm not at all involved in motorcycle culture, but perhaps there's an unspoken machismo-driven aesthetic standard that dictates silver helmets are for sissy-boys so you'd better not wear one. I don't think anyone would beat someone up for wearing a silver helmet, but they'd give him his fair share of ribbing. And then he'd go buy a nice black helmet.

This is surely our American-centric view of motorcycle helmets and gender expression, so it could easily vary according to country or continent. I'm sure it varies from state to state even within the U.S. I know that both Texas and Georgia are high on the 'display of machismo' scale-- maybe it's perfectly normal for men to wear silver helmets in Arizona or Connecticut. Or New Zealand.

I'm sure you can see that I'm being a little silly with this, but it is a great illustration of how much a reader's environment can influence the way she reads your work.

So are you gonna give? Is it a boy or a girl? I'm itching to know.

--Freya

 

[wildsweetone]

ok so it's stereotyping again...

hmmm how about if i add a little...

***
The motorbike stood on its stand beside the minivan, silver helmet balanced on the seat. The leather jacket was shrugged off and thrown, landing haphazardly on the hook inside the minivan door. Denim material was pulled away from the body, the tight fit taking a moment to be adjusted comfortably for the standing position. The hand moved to the groin, knees bending a little to free the area of restriction.

The first step into the minivan loosened the board even more. The whole weight of the rider was balanced on a single piece of wood. Just how rotten it was became quickly evident as the rider lay sprawled in a pile. The airborne language wasn't what you'd expect to hear from a bikie. But then, nothing about this bikie was what you'd expect.
***

 

[superlittlegirl]

steroetype or observation?

wildsweetone,

Stereotype is not a four letter word. I have taken pains to point out that my perception is nothing more than what I have had the opportunity to observe in my tiny corner of the world. I don't mean to say that it's right, or even objective. It's not. I'm just trying to explain how my individual POV interprets one element of your story.

Stereotype or no, I still maintain that there is an aesthetic that seems to be unique to bikers, at least in these here parts . I don't presume to be an expert on bikers, because I'm not, but I have _never_ seen a man wearing a silver helmet. I'm not saying these men don't exist, but because I have seen _so many_ women in silver helmets, that's the image that springs to mind. I don't know if you're involved in bike culture; if you are, I humbly defer to you and drop my argument. But...

If I wrote a detailed description of my character getting dressed, starting with back-seamed stay-up stockings, followed by lacy bra, wispy slip, silk georgette dress, and stiletto pumps, you'd probably assume that my character was female. Until I showed my character looking in the mirror, admiring the tent his hard-on made in the silks, that is.

Stereotype? Perhaps, but some images spring relentlessly to mind until another image is brought in replacement.

Silver helmets just seem (to me) as feminine as thigh-highs and wonderbras. I don't mean to rail singlemindedly about silver helmets, to be sure. It's just an example. But I'm slightly annoyed that my empirical observation is scoffed at as being stereotypical. Perhaps it is, but it's based on my own observation in addition to a culturally influenced perception.

And if you refuse to accept the reality that people are profoundly affected by stereotype, writing sex is going to be very hard. As unique as we all are, we still carry our own trite baggage.

--Freya

I have thoroughly enjoyed the discourse, though.

 

[wildsweetone]

weird how everything these days needs labels...

it's ok Freya,

i'm learning that a character description can be extremely bare of details and yet we can still create a full picture in the minds of readers.

take for example the minivan in that last piece... i can actually picture what the van looks like, how old it is, how in need of repair it is. i can also imagine without having been told, just what state the inside of the van is. yet i barely described it.

i think... stereotypes are formed in similar ways to cliches... they have been so prominent that they're a basic foregone conclusion.

we are all individual people, our experiences are individual to each of us. therefore we can fill in the details based on our own experiences.

had i chosen grey as the colour of the helmet, would the picture in your mind still have been female. is the word 'silver' indicative of being feminine?

taking that a step further, had i been more specific still and said that the rider was a male, would that have taken a little of the suspense from the piece?

so therefore, with the short story writing, there needs to be more input in the storyline than in the character.

thank you for making me think.

how's my learning going so far?

 

[superlittlegirl]

wildsweetone,

You're doing beautifully. I'm learning, too. I appreciate that you are willing to indulge my eccentricity.

If the helmet had been *primer gray* then I could see it on a man, but one person's grey is another's silver, so plain old grey says girl to me. I never realized how much color mattered, before. I think it's not across the board with me-- just in relation to bikers, and fetishy types, perhaps. If a man walked into a room wearing a seersucker suit, I'd never imagine that the room was a dungeon, for example.

I've discovered that I have some odd notions as a result of this conversation. I have always protested color demarcations for gender, but I guess that I'm a little guilty of doing it myself.

I wonder, though, is your character going to be able to fuck after the mishap with the minivan floor collapse?

--Freya

Completely off the subject-- have you heard the song "My Sweet One" on Phish's "Lawnboy" album? It's one of my favorites, and every time I see your name it turns the song on in my head. If you haven't heard it, you should look it up. It's silly.

 

[wildsweetone]

hell yes!

my biker aint gonna die that easily i already gave up a nun, i'm not giving up my biker rofl

i'm having a job now trying to think of things and images that are not stereotypical. grrrr

think i might have to take a trip into sci-fi land soon. lol

as to your question of the song... no i'm sorry i haven't heard it. i'll look it up tomorrow though

 

[Ray Dario]

Re: ohhhhh the dark side...

oh Ray! do you really think I can't do a decent character description? you may well be correct.

No! Emphatically No! I actually think you can do a very good character description. I just think you are fighting it way to hard

what on earth are 501 Blues? and how tall are you?

501 Blues are a particular style of Levi blue jeans. They have a button fly and a unique fit that is very comfortable, until you get an erection while wearing them.

How tall am I? Hmm, wondering why you ask, but I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 feet, give or take a few inches.

i'm still amazed at how much we each insert into stories we read.

I think the human mind will fill in any details the writer leaves out. Some feel that is good. As a reader I want the author to give me the details, otherwise it is me telling part of the story, not him.

wow... it sure sounds like you live in an extremely biased/prejudiced place. forgive me if i'm wrong, but why the hell beat up on someone who is wearing a silver helmet? ok i know you were most likely joking. but far out, the mere thought makes me wanna spit tacks.

I do indeed live in Texas, very near to New Mexico. There are a considerable number of very perjudiced people here. I'm not black, but I am dark skinned and I've faced my share of skin heads and rednecks out to prove just how stupid they are.

Now about your Minivan scene. I would swear up and down the subject was a woman. Everything you showed took me in that direction. To me this is a big part of the problem of carefully avoiding description in stories. If you want your character to be male, then make him male, describe him as male, and don't hide his gender from the reader. If on the other hand the story calls for some doubt or hesitation about the gender then do what you did, because it was a beautifully described scene. And you did use description. "Leather Jacket", "thrown Haphazardly", etc.

All big no no's from at least one person here on Lit (who by the way hasn't cared to take part in this discussion. Or any other for a while, other than sending me a VERY nasty PM a few days ago)

Okay, rant over

Ray

 

[superlittlegirl]

go incognito!

wildsweetone,

I think it might be time for a field trip. Put on your best black t-shirt, jeans and blackboots (stereotype?) and go to your friendly neighborhood biker bar. Get a beer (or soda) and find a spot where you can eavesdrop. Watch and listen. Observe the variations and similarities in mannerism, mode of dress, gesture, and speech pattern. If you're feeling brave, pick out one who resembles your character (or just find a nice big burly one) and let him buy you a drink. If you smoke, bum a cigarette. Or offer him one. Does he light it for you? How does he respond if you offer to light his? Get close enough so you can smell him. Tease him a little bit and watch how he responds. You'll know so much more about your character by the time you're ready to leave. Make particular note of any stereotypes you see confirmed or disproven.

In the parking lot, notice how many of the helmets are black. How many are silver? Are the silver ones in tandem with black? Are there any purple ones? Just be careful not to knock the bikes over domino-style like Pee-Wee did in _Pee-Wee's Big Adventure_ or you might learn more about bikers than you ever wanted to.

I'm going to do the field trip too, because this discussion has made me realize that all my ideas about bikers are based purely on stereotype. Plus, I think it would be so much fun! If you do it too, we can compare notes and gain more insight into this whole stereotype vs. observation issue. Are you game?

--Freya (always up for a new adventure)

p.s. I asked my best friend what gender she would attribute to a silver-helmet-wearer. She guessed female, under the rationale that men wear black helmets. I think I'm going to ask this question of everyone I meet. I'll let you know what kind of results I get.

 

[jon.hayworth]

Wildsweetone

Can I chip in?

I reckon the "bikie" biker is female, but only because nothing about this biker was what you'd expect. From a UK / European perspective the colour of the helmet indicates nothing.

Apart from dyed in the wool Outlaw Bikers, who do tend wear black helmets. We wear helmets of every colour under the rainbow including silver.

Added twist: - before the advent of really good thermal clothing, we often wore women's tights under our jeans to keep the cold out. So common it did not even cause a raised eyebrow in casualty when I smashed my leg. <OMG> I am always making these confessions - shrinking jeans, tights - what next. Try earning a living riding a bike between 10 to 16 hours a day in the depth of winter.

jon

 

[wildsweetone]

Freya do you have any idea at all how much trouble i can get myself into without venturing anywhere near a group of bikers? far out, i'm killing myself laughing at the thought of jumping right in there and doing as you suggest. what an incredible idea!

am i game? oh dear, way more than you think. but i'll try and control the urge and adapt my research to something a little more appropriate for the 'sweet' side.

having said that, my research may well take a while *wicked wink*

***
Ray, half the fun is in the fighting the other half is in my weird and warped way of learning. i love it! lol

501 blues - made a yellow sticky note to remind myself to take a good CLOSE look at jeans next outing to see if i can spot a pair of 501s.

6' give or take a few inches... hmmm average it out to 6'... check out the 10 incher... ok you got me... i am impressed *wicked wink*

i think it's a good debatable issue, this description detail lark. is the line so clearly marking those of us who like to put our own features in and those who like it spelt out for us? are you an oddball in this or is it me? don't answer that, i already know it's me rofl

subconsciously the minivan story has turned into what we each want it to be. now there's an idea to think about and come back to later.

the difference in our thinking doesn't have to be a 'problem' though. not until it collides with some other part of the story that doesn't seem right. then i agree with you, the description needs to be more specific.

care to be specific about the 'all big no no's' bit? i hope it wasn't nasty.

actually just about that minivan scene... thanks for your nice comments about it. i wonder... with that as a basis i wonder how well it would fit into a 750-2,000 worder. i wonder if it's possible to write an entire 750-2,000 word story from the narrator point of view without specifically giving away the gender.

***
jon

please feel free to always chip in
seems like dress codes are different the world over. (thank goodness)

btw you are messing up my stereotype of an englishman somat terrible *wicked wink* wet jeans and pantyhose... ohmygolly i sure love uniqueness!

***
wildsweetone

 

[Ray Dario]

6' give or take a few inches... hmmm average it out to 6'... check out the 10 incher... ok you got me... i am impressed *wicked wink*

Oops! Didn't mean to be bragging. Actually that came from an old Aerosmith song, "Big Ten Inch". I know I shouldn't but I'm always doing that and I know other people can't hear what's running through my vaporous head and so they don't get it. Sorry about that. Oh and I'm not saying how big it really is

i think it's a good debatable issue, this description detail lark. is the line so clearly marking those of us who like to put our own features in and those who like it spelt out for us? are you an oddball in this or is it me? don't answer that, i already know it's me rofl

Actually I seem to be in the minority here. However, on my SciFi forums elsewhere on the web I'm in the great majority. I don't think the line is nearly as clear a it may seem though. Often I feel like we are saying very similar things, just missing each other in the dark of faceless communication.

care to be specific about the 'all big no no's' bit? i hope it wasn't nasty.

Actually is was very nasty. Nuff said about it here though, it was a private little nasty note and the person who sent it has disappeared.

actually just about that minivan scene... thanks for your nice comments about it. i wonder... with that as a basis i wonder how well it would fit into a 750-2,000 worder. i wonder if it's possible to write an entire 750-2,000 word story from the narrator point of view without specifically giving away the gender.

It is probably possible. It is also listed in at least one writers workshop I've attended as an item in the "top ten things not to do" list. Apparently writers do it often enough to annoy SciFi editors. I believe it was right below submitting manuscripts in 4 point sanscript font in order to get the entire story on a single page.

Ray

 

[jon.hayworth]

Wildsweetone,

Must tell you I used to work with some Kiwi motorcycle couriers over here, and they also wore pantyhose to stay warm! One of them had an interesting money making sideline, he used to buy old Jaguars that were fit for the scrap-yard and send them back to NZ where his brother sold them for big money.

Enough of reminiscences, I was going to talk about how same word means an entirely different thing. -
MINIVAN to you means a van with a carrying capacity of about i.5 tonne like a Dodge or a Ford Transit.
Here in the UK MINIVAN is a tiny little van British Leyland formerly Morris used to build based on the Mini - remember the film "THE ITALIAN JOB"
Our generic term for the vans you call Minivans would be a Tranny.

jon

 

[wildsweetone]

ray

"Big Ten Inch" will you please hum it for me sometime, i may know it.

actually i don't think we're too far apart in what we are hearing each other say. will only take a slight perspective change to make it clear.

a writer is an individual person. he or she can form an opinion on any topic and write about it from their own perspective.

the reader is also an individual who is able to form an opinion on what they prefer to read. some prefer to not have to work in their reading, to have everything laid out between the pages and others prefer a little mystery, a story they can add their own connotations to.

Reading well written non-fiction is and should be like stepping out of your own environment and into another. it should transport you to the pages.

while i enjoy writing these short stories, i prefer a long novel to read. i like to be taken away from the present for long lengths of time. so i fully understand what you are saying.

as for the 'top ten things not to do'... i'm afraid that i'm the kind of person who, when cornered with rules and regulations, tends to break every one of them i can in order to prove that nobody will lock me into a pile of obsessional tortuous limitations if i don't wish to be locked in.

ok yes rules and grammar and ideals and morals etc all have their place. but not to the detriment of being individuals.


all the above is in my opinion of course... no humbleness about it.

 

[Ray Dario]

"Last night I held my girlfriend
Got her in a lovers clench
She got all excited
When she stepped on my big ten inch
<pause>
Record of my favorite blues
A band that plays the blues
She just love my big ten inch
<pause>
Record of my favorite blues"

does that bring back any memories WildSweetOne?

Damn it sucks that my mind can remember that shit, but can't remember my boss's name!

Ray

 

[superlittlegirl]

nothin' wrong with your memory

You obviously remember the important things!

--Freya

 

[wildsweetone]

and it's downhill from here on...

jon are you sure they were KIWI motorcyclists and males at that?

mmmmm now you're talking cars! jaguar XJS convertible, black, leather and wood interior, two exhaust pipes... whew - who turned the heat up?

you know this minivan thing... i was using it from the STX thread... it's an american expression. i had a vision of a thing we call a caravan over here. can sleep one or more, has a tiny stove, fridge, loo (sometimes) etc... know the thing i mean?

now if you're gonna talk about 'tranny' then you'd be talking about transistor radios, you know the kind? take two batteries and hold them to your ear, rust in the bathroom etc?

btw i love your reminiscences, thank you

ray that would be an OUCH for sure... just imagine having one that long that somebody stood on it, what a complete curse it would be! size does matter! i wouldn't wanna be tripping over it everytime i walked by

no it doesn't ring any bells though. i'd have to hear the tune i think.

freya!!! what are you doing back here, you're meant to be doing research! rofl

 

[superlittlegirl]

tranny?

For me, the word tranny evokes an instant association with transsexual. It takes me away from vehicles and into the thought-realm of women who are so much more beautiful that I'll ever be....

--Freya

 

[Ray Dario]

To me Minivan is something a Yuppy drives. It seats 7 doesn't have a bed, or a "loo" , just seats.

A tranny to me is a transmission for car, usually hopped and attached to a big engine in a rod, as in "Mike blew the tranny when he missed the shift from second to third gear."

But that sentence might work even for the "Transexual" definition too

Ain't language funny!

Ray

 

[wildsweetone]

lol!

i love it!

'Mike blew the tranny when he missed the shift from second to third gear.'

that's gonna keep me going for hours dear, thank you!!!