*control*

[artful]

luv

"you are (just) a sub/slave...your obligation is to obey without question"

that type of dynamic is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.....

I agree with this also, and from reading many posts here in THIS Forum, I sense THAT is a *raw* nerve that gets bumped often by the subs in here.

Often, they see a text that is terse, and they automatically jump to the wrong conclusion of what was meant by that kind of sentence. It truly is a sore spot with many subs.

Often statements are taken out of context, and a sub will IMPOSE the "JUST" in their mind, even though that was not the intent of the poster. It is well that you pointed it out. Thanks again!

 

[luvsubbbbb]

luv, we are in complete agreement. please call me des.

thanks, des....nice to meet you

i believe it is easy to agree with such a premise....it is only the Dominant who seeks to marginalize the sub/slave under His/Her charge and to continually "pull rank" (so to speak) without taking care of his/her's needs that will not "get it"

 

[luvsubbbbb]

Re: luv

I agree with this also, and from reading many posts here in THIS Forum, I sense THAT is a *raw* nerve that gets bumped often by the subs in here.

Often, they see a text that is terse, and they automatically jump to the wrong conclusion of what was meant by that kind of sentence. It truly is a sore spot with many subs.

Often statements are taken out of context, and a sub will IMPOSE the "JUST" in their mind, even though that was not the intent of the poster. It is well that you pointed it out. Thanks again!

i agree, artful.......many a sub overreacts when they THINK they are being marginalized.....it is often difficult to accept being in a vulnerable state ........having decisions made for you.......and trusting the opinions of those who would control you.......

i am honored to be able to participate in Your thread...thank You!!

 

[artful]

Re: Re: *control*

When the preagreed limits or extremes of capabilites are breached, then control reverts to the sub.

I can't agree with your statement here. As pertaining to the *breaching*, then the control reverts to the sub. A sub can ONLY end the scene or relationship with ME. They are NOT going to *control* it.

Thanks for posting your opinion though.

 

[~Dream~]

well i agree with you Des..

This concept resonates with me. If the needs of BOTH parties aren't met consistently, the relationship will fail. (Obviously, this isn't limited to power exchange relationships). I'm speaking of a pattern rather than isolated instances of a partner's needs not being met.

Inherent in giving control to a Dominant, is trust and an expectation that my needs will be met if possible. Of course, I am speaking of needs as opposed to wishes, wants, whims, etc. JMO

_______________

I totally DO expect my needs to be met and I expect to really be "heard" also..that is "paramount" to me as a matter of fact..My Master cannot always KNOW what is 'best" He is human after all and I expect to be "let in" on things that are of concern to both of us ..Yes I shall abide by His Final decision but only after much discussion has taken place as the relationship is to NOT be a "dictatorship"

 

[luvsubbbbb]

control

_______________

I totally DO expect my needs to be met and I expect to really be "heard" also..that is "paramount" to me as a matter of fact..My Master cannot always KNOW what is 'best" He is human after all and I expect to be "let in" on things that are of concern to both of us ..Yes I shall abide by His Final decision but only after much discussion has taken place as the relationship is to NOT be a "dictatorship"

interesting post, dream.........my opinion is that Dictatorships get a bad name because "Bad People" usually run them!........

here....in our idyllic BDSM world, Dictatorships run by caring and nurturing Owners could well be wonderful relationships!.......its just that these Dictators "have" to do their homework thoroughly in getting to know Their treasures infinately well before unilaterally deciding what was best for them!

for example: which situation is worse to be in?.......

1) a "Democratic" Owner misreading the situation and injuring His/Her "deeply spaced" sub/slave in a scene while waiting for a safeword?

or

2) a "Dictatorial" Owner who does not allow safewords because He/She claims to (and, in fact, DOES) know His/Her sub/slave so well that a mistake is NEVER made in knowing when to stop a scene?


i would venture to say that not only is the first situation worse, but that there is nothing wrong with the second situation and it could very well be a wonderful and safe place for BOTH parties to be in, as long as it is what BOTH parties need.........and agree to..........

just food for thought.............

 

[boz]

Re: Re: Re: *control*

I can't agree with your statement here. As pertaining to the *breaching*, then the control reverts to the sub. A sub can ONLY end the scene or relationship with ME. They are NOT going to *control* it.

Thanks for posting your opinion though.

Maybe I should have said, when that point is reached, the sub controls that point in time when the scene is no longer and it ends, or changes direction. but no longer continues in its previous form.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Sis

What you said is true,...but Darrell stole THAT line from "Jimmy Swaggart"!

Not really.

Darrell was being funny. Swaggart was being a holier than thou hypocrite.

Not the same.

Eb <who disdains bible spewing hypocrites>

 

[Richard49]

Control,...what is it, where does it come from, where does it go, who has it, when is it passed from one to the other?

Much has been said about the aspects of control, some say in a D/s relationship, the sub is REALLY the one in control, others disagree.

An example to contemplate:

A sub is laying spread eagled on the bed, by the command of their Dom/me. They are fully exposed, naked, and waiting. Their Dom/me orders them to not move, and begins to sexually tease the sub.

Physically and verbally, the assault begins to affect the sub, in such a way as to make them want to squirm,...to move. The sub, wishing to please their Dom/me, exerts much effort in not moving.

Relentlessly, the Dom/me pursues their pleasure in teasing. Harder and harder it becomes, for the sub to NOT move. Willpower, and determination to last as long as possible, is made to be of paramount importance to the sub.

The sub, is undoubtably controlling their bodily movements, to the best of their ability. The Dom/me is testing the subs abilities to do so. The action will continue until ONE of them, BREAKS the test.

So,...who is in control,...the Dom/me or the sub?
Please give other examples as you may wish, comments and examples are welcome by all.

Both
but in different ways

 

[Shadowsdream]

Control,...what is it, where does it come from, where does it go, who has it, when is it passed from one to the other?

Much has been said about the aspects of control, some say in a D/s relationship, the sub is REALLY the one in control, others disagree.

An example to contemplate:

A sub is laying spread eagled on the bed, by the command of their Dom/me. They are fully exposed, naked, and waiting. Their Dom/me orders them to not move, and begins to sexually tease the sub.

Physically and verbally, the assault begins to affect the sub, in such a way as to make them want to squirm,...to move. The sub, wishing to please their Dom/me, exerts much effort in not moving.

Relentlessly, the Dom/me pursues their pleasure in teasing. Harder and harder it becomes, for the sub to NOT move. Willpower, and determination to last as long as possible, is made to be of paramount importance to the sub.

The sub, is undoubtably controlling their bodily movements, to the best of their ability. The Dom/me is testing the subs abilities to do so. The action will continue until ONE of them, BREAKS the test.

So,...who is in control,...the Dom/me or the sub?
Please give other examples as you may wish, comments and examples are welcome by all.

Both are in control in the scene that You describe...the sub is in control of the body movements and the Dom is in control of the scene

***a moment where the Dominant says crawl to the bedroom..the sub says...why?...the Dominant was in control 100%. IF the submissive trusted that the Dominant had some reason and obeyed joyfully in anticipation of what the scenerio would become.

Once the submissive asked WHY the flow of the control was broken to a certain degree as the Dominant must now decide if there really was any legitimate reason for the question or if in fact it was just something that was a habit of this submissive...To question. A part of the control is gone no matter what in this very mild scene..it now has entered a partial control for both.

The Dominant may or may not decide to take back the control...
* OBEY * The submissive can give back the control by obeying. The Dominant can stop a scene playing out to explain WHY to something so idiotically questioned and give the control to the sub or out of boredom stop the scene and withdraw back into a chosen and unsatisfied Domination.

It is much easy to Dominate sexually as the submissive gets to enjoy wonderful sexual tittilation..it is much easier to submit sexually for this very same reason.

I feel sexual submission and mental submission cannot be used in the same context of control...opinions?

 

[~Dream~]

Re: control

interesting post, dream.........my opinion is that Dictatorships get a bad name because "Bad People" usually run them!........

here....in our idyllic BDSM world, Dictatorships run by caring and nurturing Owners could well be wonderful relationships!.......its just that these Dictators "have" to do their homework thoroughly in getting to know Their treasures infinately well before unilaterally deciding what was best for them!

for example: which situation is worse to be in?.......

1) a "Democratic" Owner misreading the situation and injuring His/Her "deeply spaced" sub/slave in a scene while waiting for a safeword?

or

2) a "Dictatorial" Owner who does not allow safewords because He/She claims to (and, in fact, DOES) know His/Her sub/slave so well that a mistake is NEVER made in knowing when to stop a scene?


i would venture to say that not only is the first situation worse, but that there is nothing wrong with the second situation and it could very well be a wonderful and safe place for BOTH parties to be in, as long as it is what BOTH parties need.........and agree to..........

just food for thought.............

_________________________
I do hear what you are sayin luv however,an owner who does NOT allow "safe words would NOT be a WISE owner in my opinion..I never know in any given day how my body just may react "differently" i.e. be more "sensitive' to certain stimuli than it is on others ,therefore I may NEED to "safe word" out of the "scene" and I cannot "expect My Master to be a " mindreader " if You will and just know each & every MOOD I may be in.. by the way..EVERYONE makes mistakes.. even Dictatorial Owners..

 

[zipman]

Re: Re: *control*

<snip>
The Dominant may or may not decide to take back the control...
* OBEY * The submissive can give back the control by obeying. The Dominant can stop a scene playing out to explain WHY to something so idiotically questioned and give the control to the sub or out of boredom stop the scene and withdraw back into a chosen and unsatisfied Domination.

I often will completely stop a scene if I feel I am questioned during a scene. This way, I do not relinquish any control and I am pleased to know that my sub will not be receiving any pleasure from me for the rest of the evening. I find that it makes a sub question their own questions more carefully in the future.

It is much easy to Dominate sexually as the submissive gets to enjoy wonderful sexual tittilation..it is much easier to submit sexually for this very same reason.

Absolutely!

I feel sexual submission and mental submission cannot be used in the same context of control...opinions?

I have to think about this, but I also think there is a huge difference between mental submission in a 24/7 TPE and in a more fragmented BDSM relationship (the type I that I am in where BDSM is the norm in the bedroom, but not full time). The mental submission is much harder in a 24/7 TPE and the questioning is more probably considering the amount of control the sub has relinquished. In the more fragmented type of BDSM relationship, mental submission is usually occurring at the same time as sexual submission so it is more difficult to seperate the two.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: *control*

I feel sexual submission and mental submission cannot be used in the same context of control...opinions?

I agree. Mainly because I do more mental and physical control.

As I have said before, sex is not the focus of my D/s relationships. That does not mean the interactions with my sub are not erotic. It just means that sex is just another tool in my Dominant bag.

I control my sub's sexual interactions with Me. I do not care about how he relates (or if he relate)s sexually with others. he is not allowed to play with other Dommes without my knowledge; all he has to do is inform & report back. I am more concerned with our consentual power exchange activities.

When I have a 24/7, that power exchange will still reflect my type of dominance, but I will exert total sexual control at that time in addition to the about named activities.

That is a whole lot of work!


Ebony

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: *control*(Shadowsdream)

Both are in control in the scene that You describe...the sub is in control of the body movements and the Dom is in control of the scene

***a moment where the Dominant says crawl to the bedroom..the sub says...why?...the Dominant was in control 100%. IF the submissive trusted that the Dominant had some reason and obeyed joyfully in anticipation of what the scenerio would become.

Once the submissive asked WHY the flow of the control was broken to a certain degree as the Dominant must now decide if there really was any legitimate reason for the question or if in fact it was just something that was a habit of this submissive...To question. A part of the control is gone no matter what in this very mild scene..it now has entered a partial control for both.

The Dominant may or may not decide to take back the control...
* OBEY * The submissive can give back the control by obeying. The Dominant can stop a scene playing out to explain WHY to something so idiotically questioned and give the control to the sub or out of boredom stop the scene and withdraw back into a chosen and unsatisfied Domination.

It is much easy to Dominate sexually as the submissive gets to enjoy wonderful sexual tittilation..it is much easier to submit sexually for this very same reason.

I feel sexual submission and mental submission cannot be used in the same context of control...opinions?

___________________________
sorry but I get VERY angry when someone uses the words "idiotically" along with questions? I am VERY curious as to WHY exactly You chose to use that word Shadows as I look up to & respect You....why ,if it is a "new relationship for example would it be "wrong" for the sub to "question" as the TRUST has to be developed over TIME and not just thrown at the Dom/mes feet!!
I feel this is a degrading and humilihating word to be used towards submissives and truly hope it was NOT your intention at all?
finding myself suddenly VERY thankful I have the Master that I do!! Phew!! lol

 

[Shadowsdream]

Re: Re: Re: *control*

I have to think about this, but I also think there is a huge difference between mental submission in a 24/7 TPE and in a more fragmented BDSM relationship (the type I that I am in where BDSM is the norm in the bedroom, but not full time). The mental submission is much harder in a 24/7 TPE and the questioning is more probably considering the amount of control the sub has relinquished. In the more fragmented type of BDSM relationship, mental submission is usually occurring at the same time as sexual submission so it is more difficult to seperate the two.

Zip...I do speak here also of the fact that strong Domination even of PRIMARILY a sexual nature is more difficult for some submissives to ACCEPT but it is extremely easy and pleasurable to just be tied up, spanked and sexually satisfied and tormented if the brain does not need to be involved with the body. It can also be a difficult style of Domination for a Mistress or a Master that is only interested in a half loaf.


It is not always that the sub and the Dom/me have compatible expectations but niether can admit it to themselves or each other. The fantasy over rides reality.

Arghhhh I am confusing Myself today.

 

[zipman]

Re: Re: Re: *control*(Shadowsdream)

___________________________
sorry but I get VERY angry when someone uses the words "idiotically" along with questions? I am VERY curious as to WHY exactly You chose to use that word Shadows as I look up to & respect You....why ,if it is a "new relationship for example would it be "wrong" for the sub to "question" as the TRUST has to be developed over TIME and not just thrown at the Dom/mes feet!!
I feel this is a degrading and humilihating word to be used towards submissives and truly hope it was NOT your intention at all?
finding myself suddenly VERY thankful I have the Master that I do!! Phew!! lol

Dream,

I think all of our posts and answers are "colored" by our own experiences. While you instantly assume that the post applies to you (just beginning a ne relationship), SD has been in one a long time. Therefore, the thought of a sub questioning something like a command to "crawl to the bedroom" might indeed be viewed as an "idiotic question" to her. Sometimes, we need to view things through the eyes of the person asking the question, and not just through our own eyes.

In addition, there are subs who play the "bratty I am going to question you to test your limits same."

I highly doubt that SD meant to humilate or degrade subs with her use of the word. I think she was clearly not speaking about the kind of legitimate questions a sub might have. The truth is, if a command like "crawl to the bedroom" which in my opinion is a very basic type of command needs to questioned, then no trust has been developed between the sub and the Dom/me.

*Edited to add* or the sub is either not ready for submission or is not truly submitting to their Master.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Re: Re: Re: *control*(Shadowsdream)

___________________________
sorry but I get VERY angry when someone uses the words "idiotically" along with questions? I am VERY curious as to WHY exactly You chose to use that word Shadows as I look up to & respect You....why ,if it is a "new relationship for example would it be "wrong" for the sub to "question" as the TRUST has to be developed over TIME and not just thrown at the Dom/mes feet!!
I feel this is a degrading and humilihating word to be used towards submissives and truly hope it was NOT your intention at all?
finding myself suddenly VERY thankful I have the Master that I do!! Phew!! lol

I use the word *idiotic* because that is My opinion...I do not format My opinion to fit yours any more than you format your opinions to fit Mine. As it should be.

So instead of answering a question that you could obviously answer for yourself by reading the example perhaps you could instead explain WHAT trust needs to be in place to crawl to the bedroom..is the scarey part...the crawling..the bedroom..or the obedience...or something even more dramatic? Another clarification...*idiotic* will flow just as freely from My keyboard referring to Dom/me behaviour as sub behaviour.

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Re: Re: *control*(Shadowsdream)

I use the word *idiotic* because that is My opinion...I do not format My opinion to fit yours any more than you format your opinions to fit Mine. As it should be.

So instead of answering a question that you could obviously answer for yourself by reading the example perhaps you could instead explain WHAT trust needs to be in place to crawl to the bedroom..is the scarey part...the crawling..the bedroom..or the obedience...or something even more dramatic? Another clarification...*idiotic* will flow just as freely from My keyboard referring to Dom/me behaviour as sub behaviour.

_____________________
First of all,thanks for not coming after me with that Whip of yours ,according to Luvsubbb it's a thing to be feared !! anyways ,quite obviously the Scary part for ME anyways would NOT be the 'crawling" ,the bedroom(no way!),but hell yes the 'obedience" itself as that is with which Master gains and maintains the control with....also I'm MORE than happy to hear that that "word" *idiotic* flows both ways,I just dont choose to use it because I consider it disrespectful ,but as You've so eloquently put,We DO have our own opinions now,dont we?? ..I am happy to Know that MY Master understands I am 'still' learning and would therefore Not be so critical of me if I were to 'slip up" and ask questions of Him..He has NOTHING to lose and EVERYTHING to gain by "educating me" ..

 

[Shadowsdream]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: *control*(Shadowsdream)

_____________________
First of all,thanks for not coming after me with that Whip of yours ,according to Luvsubbb it's a thing to be feared !! anyways ,quite obviously the Scary part for ME anyways would NOT be the 'crawling" ,the bedroom(no way!),but hell yes the 'obedience" itself as that is with which Master gains and maintains the control with....also I'm MORE than happy to hear that that "word" *idiotic* flows both ways,I just dont choose to use it because I consider it disrespectful ,but as You've so eloquently put,We DO have our own opinions now,dont we?? ..I am happy to Know that MY Master understands I am 'still' learning and would therefore Not be so critical of me if I were to 'slip up" and ask questions of Him..He has NOTHING to lose and EVERYTHING to gain by "educating me" ..

ok

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: *control*(Shadowsdream)

We DO have our own opinions now,dont we?? ..I am happy to Know that MY Master understands I am 'still' learning and would therefore Not be so critical of me if I were to 'slip up" and ask questions of Him..He has NOTHING to lose and EVERYTHING to gain by "educating me" ..

However Dream,

We are all equal here and are adults. Do not expect others to treat you like Artful does because you are "new" or "learning". That is condescending behaviour from one adult to another. So it helps if you take the time to post clearly so that your voice is heard.

Eb

 

[luvsubbbbb]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: *control*(Shadowsdream)

_____________________
First of all, thanks for not coming after me with that Whip of yours ,according to Luvsubbb it's a thing to be feared !!

ummm........Artful's dream:

i CANNOT testify to that statement from personal experience........yet..........

.......but i HAVE met 2 people in real life in the recent past who CAN, and let's just say that i will take their word for it!!

 

[Shadowsdream]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: *control*(Shadowsdream)

ummm........Artful's dream:

i CANNOT testify to that statement from personal experience........yet..........

.......but i HAVE met 2 people in real life in the recent past who CAN, and let's just say that i will take their word for it!!

O O...now it is confirmed....say hello to them next time you speak please

 

[zipman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: *control*(Shadowsdream)

_____________________
<snip>,quite obviously the Scary part for ME anyways would NOT be the 'crawling" ,the bedroom(no way!),but hell yes the 'obedience" itself as that is with which Master gains and maintains the control with....
<snip>
I am happy to Know that MY Master understands I am 'still' learning and would therefore Not be so critical of me if I were to 'slip up" and ask questions of Him..He has NOTHING to lose and EVERYTHING to gain by "educating me" ..

Dream,

With all due respect, certain kinds of questioning can be a direct challenge to a Dom/mes' control. Isn't obedience the core element of submission? If you give someone else control and then question their decisions, aren't you negating your submission to them, making it contigent on your approval of their reasoning?

I'm trying to understand your point of view from the posts you have made on this thread.

 

[cymbidia]

As i've posted before in numerous places, and in my opinion, everyone who participates in BDSM sexuality, even if it's in the most rudimentary fantasy way imaginable, is a control freak.

Those of us who submit fully as a part of our core self do so only to a very few in our lifetime. However, along the way, all of us have to learn how and when and if we can truly submit. Most of us having learning curve time with dominants that may (or may not) be as new to the idea and the ideal of D/s relationships as we are.

But those of us who need to submit, submit. We don't play at it. We don't embarrass our dominants with public shows of excessive petulance and petty power struggles. And we don't splash the ugly details of our personal interactions all over public spaces, either.

Such is highly offensive and exceedingly embarrassing to everyone who views it. That is the kind of behavior makes many of us wonder why the out-of-control submissive is not reined in and disciplined, for her welfare and for that of the bond between dominant and submissive.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Ebonyfire]

As i've posted before in numerous places, and in my opinion, everyone who participates in BDSM sexuality, even if it's in the most rudimentary fantasy way imaginable, is a control freak.

Those of us who submit fully as a part of our core self do so only to a very few in our lifetime. However, along the way, all of us have to learn how and when and if we can truly submit. Most of us having learning curve time with dominants that may (or may not) be as new to the idea and the ideal of D/s relationships as we are.

But those of us who need to submit, submit. We don't play at it. We don't embarrass our dominants with public shows of excessive petulance and petty power struggles. And we don't splash the ugly details of our personal interactions all over public spaces, either.

Such is highly offensive and exceedingly embarrassing to everyone who views it. That is the kind of behavior makes many of us wonder why the out-of-control submissive is not reined in and disciplined, for her welfare and for that of the bond between dominant and submissive.

Just my opinion, of course.

Ahem,

Amen!

Eb