Damn

[Tzara]

I mean this, as a favour, can you tell me what you think of his essay on Robinson Jeffers

OK. First pass.

Kind of interesting, but cranky, as all of his stuff seems to be. Wanders off-topic quite a bit. Could do with some references. (Who are these "scansionists" and where do they hang out, disparaging poor Jeffers? Maybe we could go throw rocks at them or something.) Puts in a couple of what I think are really good poems by Jeffers. (Sigh. Yet another poet I have do do some catch-up reading on. At least Angeline didn't suggest this one. She's kind of like a teacher that keeps piling on the homework. For which I thank her, of course. )

One of his main points seems to be that syllabic stresses are not binary (i.e., are more complex than stressed/unstressed). Duh. Look at a dictionary, Jack. For example, from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

Main Entry: con·tro·ver·sy
Pronunciation: 'kän-tr&-"v&r-sE, British also k&n-'trä-v&r-sE​

Even in American English there are different stresses in this word. (That's what the ' and " indicate.) Throw in the British pronunciation and you get something that scans completely differently. I don't think this is news.

And I don't think it invalidates meter in poetry. The fact that there are variants in stress does not argue that stress isn't there. That it is tracked in scansion only in a binary form is merely a limitation of notation. Also, traditional scansion (what the hell am I saying? how would I know?) doesn't recognize what I think of as syllabic length or phrasing. Take "controversy" as an example. I would pronounce it basically with two "quick" syllables followed by two "slower" ones. This is all part of what he's talking about, but again, I don't think this is news.

Think of music. The fact that western music is notated for rhythm with time signatures, notes, and rests doesn't mean that it is normally played absolutely strictly according to that notation. How the performer actually realizes this is part of what constitutes their interpretation of the music. Opera conductors, for example, have to pay attention to the singers who commonly "embellish" the metrical indications of the score (and vice versa).

Verse seems to run the gamut from rigidly metrical forms (e.g., Wordsworth's "She was a phantom of delight/when first she gleam'd upon my sight") to prose poems, which are to me rather indistinguishable from "mere" prose. What metrical scheme is chosen by the poet affects the poem's sound, but surely that should be the choice of the author, in the same way that a composer might choose waltz time or 4/4.

He seems to believe that critics view poetry as either "common speech"/free verse or rigidly metrical in form. Sez who?

I won't argue with him that the two Jeffers poems he cites sound wonderfully well.

OK. Your turn.

 

[annaswirls]

well I will say one thing, he is one cranky man

Reminds me of Steven Hart Crane's poem:

In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
who, squatting upon the ground,
Held his heart in his hands,
And ate of it.
I said, "Is it good, friend?"
"It is bitter—bitter," he answered;
"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart."
("The Black Riders and Other Lines," III)

 

[TrentReznor]

Trent Reznor

 

[twelveoone]

OK. First pass.

Kind of interesting, but cranky, as all of his stuff seems to be. Wanders off-topic quite a bit. Could do with some references. (Who are these "scansionists" and where do they hang out, disparaging poor Jeffers? Maybe we could go throw rocks at them or something.) Puts in a couple of what I think are really good poems by Jeffers. (Sigh. Yet another poet I have do do some catch-up reading on. At least Angeline didn't suggest this one. She's kind of like a teacher that keeps piling on the homework. For which I thank her, of course. )

One of his main points seems to be that syllabic stresses are not binary (i.e., are more complex than stressed/unstressed). Duh. Look at a dictionary, Jack. For example, from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

Main Entry: con·tro·ver·sy
Pronunciation: 'kän-tr&-"v&r-sE, British also k&n-'trä-v&r-sE​

Even in American English there are different stresses in this word. (That's what the ' and " indicate.) Throw in the British pronunciation and you get something that scans completely differently. I don't think this is news.

And I don't think it invalidates meter in poetry. The fact that there are variants in stress does not argue that stress isn't there. That it is tracked in scansion only in a binary form is merely a limitation of notation. Also, traditional scansion (what the hell am I saying? how would I know?) doesn't recognize what I think of as syllabic length or phrasing. Take "controversy" as an example. I would pronounce it basically with two "quick" syllables followed by two "slower" ones. This is all part of what he's talking about, but again, I don't think this is news.

Think of music. The fact that western music is notated for rhythm with time signatures, notes, and rests doesn't mean that it is normally played absolutely strictly according to that notation. How the performer actually realizes this is part of what constitutes their interpretation of the music. Opera conductors, for example, have to pay attention to the singers who commonly "embellish" the metrical indications of the score (and vice versa).

Verse seems to run the gamut from rigidly metrical forms (e.g., Wordsworth's "She was a phantom of delight/when first she gleam'd upon my sight") to prose poems, which are to me rather indistinguishable from "mere" prose. What metrical scheme is chosen by the poet affects the poem's sound, but surely that should be the choice of the author, in the same way that a composer might choose waltz time or 4/4.

He seems to believe that critics view poetry as either "common speech"/free verse or rigidly metrical in form. Sez who?

I won't argue with him that the two Jeffers poems he cites sound wonderfully well.

OK. Your turn.

Nope. Totally agree, as a tool I tend to ignore it, being rather callous about it . I ask because you brought it up on an earlier piece of doggeral I wrote, and because it does seem so overemphasized in some quarters, some sites, pumping all the life of what is their moribund poetry anyway. A bleeding out in tweed. Perhaps a tool too subtle for my heavy hands.
Thank you

 

[bogusbrig]

Review:
‘In the poems of Neruda, Vallejo, Jimenez, Machado, Rilke, the poem is an extension of the substance of the man, no different from his skin or his hands. The substance of the man who wrote the poem reaches far out into the darkness and the poem is his whole body, seeing with his ears and his fingers and his hair.’
From critic
Eliot was a good critic, forces you to look at things differnently, an analysis
Reviews are generic book blurb nonsense
Just my def.

I can't say I really disagree with you, which seems a little pointless writing this reply.

All art on one level, whether prose, poetry, painting or music, is in someway, a self portrait. Even if you treat ones own work as delinquent children let loose on an unsuspecting world to fend for themselves, they still carry ones genes about with them. Something to remember the next time one writes a piece of crap.

I would say the next time 'I' write a piece of crap but my caterpillars have took over my cabbage and have ambitions of becoming butterflies.

I think anyone with artistic ambitions should be looking to present a slightly different view of the world which is essentially why I might find a particular poet/artist interesting. The lack of ambition to present a different view of the world and opt for the safety of craft, is the reason I find a lot of art/poetry not worthy of expecting me to invest much time and interest in it.

 

[twelveoone]

well I will say one thing, he is one cranky man

Maybe baby,
So am
I -ya-I

Who is the woman with us in the dawn?...
Whose is the flesh our feet have moved upon?

-Hart Crane (Powhatan's Daugter, The Bridge)

 

[twelveoone]

Enjoy, my Sweetness
Enjoy this sorrow
This moment that we share
that we are are alive
amidst the plague
And keep in your chambered heart forever
the sight of my wounded eye - Hallmark 2011

 

[bogusbrig]

Enjoy, my Sweetness
Enjoy this sorrow
This moment that we share
that we are are alive
amidst the plague
And keep in your chambered heart forever
the sight of my wounded eye - Hallmark 2011

This could be Yeats!

 

[twelveoone]

This could be Yeats!

I do write under other names, other numbers

 

[twelveoone]

And Noman crosses back
back from the Bridge of Sighs
ponders the oily reflections
would this be Venice too
But enjoy
Enjoy, my Sweetness
Enjoy this sorrow
the bitter poison we share
of the moments we are are alive
Amidst the plague of birds
circling above the wheel
And keep in your chambered heart- forever
the sight of my wounded eye - Hallmark 2011

 

[annaswirls]

you starting your own line of cards?
like twisted whiskers but real poetry?


sorry about fucking up the stephen crane hart crane steven hart crane

I am a woman who thinks jack nicholas was in As good as it Gets

and dont get me started on

Paul Simon Neil Simon Paul Diamond Neal Sedaka

And Noman crosses back
back from the Bridge of Sighs
ponders the oily reflections
would this be Venice too
But enjoy
Enjoy, my Sweetness
Enjoy this sorrow
the bitter poison we share
of the moments we are are alive
Amidst the plague of birds
circling above the wheel
And keep in your chambered heart- forever
the sight of my wounded eye - Hallmark 2011

 

[twelveoone]

Ah, Nicolo, is it better to loved or feared?
Love turns with the season's eye,
a hurricane, infuses the wreakage
with the bones of those who stayed.
Fear is a man's best friend

Do we all come back
Do we all come back
Do we come back as we,
to do it all over again?

I fear this return.

So enjoy
Enjoy, my Sweetness
Enjoy this sorrow
this bitter prison we share
the minutes we are are alive
listening to the song of the plague-
birds circling above the wheel
between Bruegel and The Buddha
Between the end without meaning
Between the ending without end

I reside.

The crowd milling with palms, empty.
Awaiting the "man on an ass"
Keep this
Keep this in rememberance of me
keep in your chambered heart- forever,
the sight of my wounded eye


Noman crosses back over
back from the Bridge of Sighs
could this be Venice too, I see
my city of dreams, sinking
he awaits the parting of thighs
to be reborn, blind.





- Hallmark 2011

 

[anonamouse]

Can of mushrooms
bottom of the can had a message
stamped
"Best if used by 1201"

Thought it was a sign...

I wondered where the original part came from

 

[twelveoone]

This could be Yeats!

I yam Yeats:
what kind of football teem is this?
if the center can not hold
fumbling to Byzantium,
instead of the end zone.

 

[twelveoone]

what is this that drains me
is there nothing to sustain me
A balm of gilead?

the horror of the shudder
an echo of a breath

and over parapet yonder
neither raven nor an eagle
but rather common seagull
that shits upon my window

just another view

Can anyone tell me what this is about? I seem to have remember reading an interesting psychological interpretation of it, but I can't seem to find it.

 

[twelveoone]

one of the better ideas here

didn't want to clutter it up with a thanks

THANK YOU LAUREN HYNDE

Perhaps I'll join in, although, some have said I'm too rough

 

[twelveoone]

one of the better ideas here

didn't want to clutter it up with a thanks

THANK YOU LAUREN HYNDE

Perhaps I'll join in, although, some have said I'm too rough

Despite thinking it is certainly one of the better threads, I would certainly hope that comments are left over in new poems, real comments. Can't have THAT certain wonderful one who keeps sending my alter PM's thinking HE owes both places, now can we?

 

[wildsweetone]

talking to yourself is the first sign of madness, answering yourself is the second - i read that somewhere.

 

[twelveoone]

Nah, at least I don't have the pretentions of being a poet.

 

[bogusbrig]

Nah, at least I don't have the pretentions of being a poet.

It all depends how you define what a poet is and does as to whether you would define yourself as one.

Myself, I just write to get rid of my creative frustration and anything that comes from that that is good, I'm pleased. But at least I give myself the freedom to be creative and am not scared of high wiring and falling flat on my face.

I wouldn't call some poets, poets. I would call them word mechanics. It's the difference between a mechanic that puts the car together and maintains it and drives it to check it is sound and the racing driver that becomes part of the car and makes it perform at its extremes. It's inevitable he will crash at times while performing at the limits and that is the only way he is beaten but when he is at one with the car, now....

1201, believe me, you're a poet.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Perhaps I'll join in, although, some have said I'm too rough

I certainly hope you join in. Some like it rough.

 

[annaswirls]

Nah, at least I don't have the pretentions of being a poet.

shut your pie hole, poet.
give me your lunch money.

heheh

you can't hide it
poet tattoo forehead

 

[annaswirls]

I certainly hope you join in. Some like it rough.

Lauren, see what you can do about getting a Smilie with a hand raised and waving wildly

never mind, I think this will work

 

[annaswirls]

what a bargain

so I can't stop this thought, it keeps re-entering into my brain no matter how I try to think of peaceful images like butterflies that start tsunamis and the sound of one hand clapping:

plungers do not stir up shit
they help it to the sewer when it is clogged in the drain
and won't go down by more natural means

so I just see this big stupid poo swirling around in circles,
doin' the high fiber float
and it will not go down and I think
damn we need a plunger!

 

[twelveoone]

Modern American Poetry

of possible interest, what some others say about some well known poems. Perspectives.
I always thought Ishmael Reed was an asshole, now I know he is, and I love him for it.