do they know what poetry is?

[The_Fool]

Those Kid TV Dinners have tots and crap in them. The food is awful and probably toxic. I know this because my kids eat them.
Anyway, write a tv tot dinner poem. Go ahead. Dare you.

Nope....Don't write poems. Throw words against the wall and write down what sticks....

 

[American Woman]

Nope....Don't write poems. Throw words against the wall and write down what sticks....

I have word magnets for my fridge. I think you'd have a better shot at poetry with those.
Oh, how about some sticky, clingy words. You could throw them at my nude body and whichever ones you can remove with your teeth will be your poem. Huh? Huh?





huh?

 

[The_Fool]

I have word magnets for my fridge. I think you'd have a better shot at poetry with those.
Oh, how about some sticky, clingy words. You could throw them at my nude body and whichever ones you can remove with your teeth will be your poem. Huh? Huh?





huh?

We could try that, of course. But you do realize that I would have to restrain you...Ropes, Handcuffs, nipple clamps, that sort of thing...

 

[WickedEve]

We could try that, of course. But you do realize that I would have to restrain you...Ropes, Handcuffs, nipple clamps, that sort of thing...

How about vines instead of ropes? I want something natural. Maybe we could dig up some varmints with sharp teeth for the clamps. Oh, it would be an adventure! Possibly a visit to the ER. Fun, fun, fun.

 

[The_Fool]

How about vines instead of ropes? I want something natural. Maybe we could dig up some varmints with sharp teeth for the clamps. Oh, it would be an adventure! Possibly a visit to the ER. Fun, fun, fun.

That reminds me of Foxworthy...

You might be a redneck, if you ever had your nipple bitten off by a beaver...


We can do the vines, as long as it's not poison ivy.


I do admit, that I have never enjoyed a visit to the ER.

 

[Tzara]

<snip> but I think the readers of lit represent the average reader. And the average reader and writer wants TV dinner poetry--easy and instant gratification.</snip>

"Average reader" is a term that already selects an elite, at least in the USA. The National Endowment for the Arts reports that "fewer than half of American adults now read literature" and that "only slightly more than one-third of adult males now read literature."

Oddly, the NEA's study claims "[p]oetry was read by 12 percent or 25 million people," a number I simply don't believe unless it includes greeting cards or smutty limericks posted on lavatory walls. In any case, you can probably factor this number down by a couple magnitudes for people who are reading contemporary poetry. (Yeah, yeah. People read Shakespeare still.)

As for your original example, I have changed my mind from what I used to believe and would now say that, yes, it is poetry. Pretty bad poetry, perhaps, but poetry. That the author thought what she was writing was poetry is sufficient to make it so. What other criterion is there?

 

[Angeline]

TV Dinner Lyric

more poetic than the ersatz-ku.

Cat Food
King Crimson

Lady Supermarket with an apple in her basket
Knocks in the manager's door;
Grooving to the muzak from a speaker in a shoe rack
Lays out her goods on the floor;
Everything she's chosen is conveniently frozen.
"Eat it and come back for more!"

Lady Window Shopper with a new one in the hopper
Whips up a chemical brew;
Croaking to a neighbour while she polishes a sabre
Knows how to flavour a stew.
Never need to worry with a tin of 'Hurri Curri':
"Poisoned especially for you!"

No use to complain
If you're caught out in the rain;
Your mother's quite insane.
Cat food cat food cat food again.

Lady Yellow Stamper with a fillet in a hamper
Dying to finish the course;
Goodies for the table with a fable on the label
Drowning in miracle sauce.
Don't think I am that rude if I tell you that it's cat food,
"Not even fit for a horse!"

 

[American Woman]

That reminds me of Foxworthy...

You might be a redneck, if you ever had your nipple bitten off by a beaver...


We can do the vines, as long as it's not poison ivy.


I do admit, that I have never enjoyed a visit to the ER.

Not even when the nurse slides on the rubber gloves?

 

[American Woman]

That the author thought what she was writing was poetry is sufficient to make it so. What other criterion is there?

Then I can tell you what I had for dinner and call it poetry. I can point to a rock and call it a dick. It's a dick. I'm going to bed.

eve

 

[The_Fool]

Not even when the nurse slides on the rubber gloves?

Only if the glove has room for one digit...

 

[The_Fool]

Only if the glove has room for one digit...

Hmmm...that didn't come out quite right.

 

[dcpoet44]

back to the origin of this post

I don't come here to often but this one got my attention. As to what Eve mentioned, she has a legitimate beef. When I saw the poem in question, I thought to myself......uhhhmmm......doesn't look like haiku. But I don't really focus on that element of writing that often. And yes, it did look more like prose as I would know something of that. But I do believe it is a simple of case of one looking at what they see and thinking that they have the right idea. After all, haikus are very small and one might think that is all there is to it. Just write a few lines and that is it. I remember my early days, it wasn't pretty, but when I got a comment that wasn't sweet. I took accepted it. And as Rainman pointed out, how does one approach one that might not accept a harsh comment? Sometimes it is tough to be the reader than it is to write something, because at that point it is easier to be more critical. Though, that doesn't mean that we aren't with are own writing. It is just that we aren't as connected with anothers writing, unless of course it strikes us as good. But aside from that the rest of this thread I did some major laughing. You guys are something else!!

 

[jthserra]

I feel like a subdued mushroom who whispers, "Nice poem." Or "Good effort." That's not how I learned to write better poetry. But god help me, you can't be very honest with most poets anymore. You try to leave constructive feedback for a newbie, and someone will swoop down to defend their words and call you a troll for not seeing the brilliance in a cliche statement that's pretending to be a poem.

Do you see why so many poets have gotten frustrated here?

 

[bluerains]

my pi

Haikai as a Pyramid: Zappai, Senryu, and Haiku
Broadly speaking, we can view all of haikai as a pyramid composed of three basic elements: zappai, senryu, and haiku. We are all familiar with the terms senryu and haiku, but what is "zappai"? In Japanese poetry, zappai includes all types of seventeen syllable poems that do not have the proper formal or technical characteristics of haiku - the cutting word, season word, rules for the use of postpositional particles and specific verb endings. It was a popular form of entertainment in the Edo period that includes many kinds of linking games, including the one from which senryu developed. If we look at all of what is presented today as "haiku," a large number of so-called haiku are, like zappai, imaginative or imaginary, wit-based poems that are written or shared for the entertainment of the reader and writer. Unlike haiku, these poems often have no relation to nature. Unlike senryu, these poems make no attempt to distinguish between the imaginative and the imaginary. This includes things like spam haiku, sci-fi haiku and their ilk. While it is appropriate to recognize these poems as part of the haikai tradition, they are not haiku except in the sense that they share with haiku the characteristic of brevity. In the past, I have proposed the use of the term kyôku to describe these poems. Kyôku means "mad verse," and these poems certainly share madness with the most imaginative haikai of the Japanese tradition. In fact, one could go as far as to say that they represent the true legacy of the haikai that Bashô inherited, and out of which haiku developed as an independent art. But, as it turns out, kyôku itself is part of this larger imaginative tradition called zappai in Japanese. While zappai were recognized as a form of poetic entertainment, they were not recognized as being as high an art as either haiku or senryu.

Zappai thus defined may be a handy label for the majority of what is written today in the name of "haiku." If they are not the majority, they are certainly the kind of "haiku" that command the most attention in the media. Zappai, then, form the base of our pyramid and account for most of its volume, either literally or figuratively. Zappai, as a sort of poetic entertainment, provide the point of entry for many poets into the haikai tradition and the writing of zappai enables people to develop the skills and interest for subsequent exploration of other elements of this tradition.

While the term zappai is unfamiliar to most American students of haiku, I believe its adoption will provide us with a useful category to help us understand that while much of what is being written today under the name of haiku is not genuine haiku, it is still a legitimate part of the haikai tradition. Those who object to the introduction of this term might simply want to use the term "pseudo-haiku" to categorize the poems I am describing here.


These are examples of zappai, a miscellaneous group of poems whose main point of contact with haiku is its outwardly similar formal aspect. Usually written in 3 lines of 5 - 7 - 5 syllables (far more often than contemporary haiku, for instance), these purport to be haiku but lack most of the internal components we have come to recognize which distinguish haiku. Nevertheless, these can be fun, and so long as we recognize the differences between the various forms, harmless enough to the appreciation and achievement of genuine art. Other kinds of zappai include sci-fiku:

Earth-Tansen treaty talks
the alien ambassador lying
out of each mouth
John Dunphy

corporate-ku:

Truly, the Wise One
is creative: he invents
his own statistics.
William Warriner

vampire-ku:

The Brujah have no
concept of society.
Come Kiss My Ra, fool!
Zappai is an important literary term, pre-existing in Japanese literature and culture has been introduced as an English?language term in order apparently to lend credence to what is an English?language literary issue. Since there has been scant public mention of zappai, or substantive discussion relating to potential problems of its use in English,[2] it is unclear how this term has suddenly found its way into two important English-language haiku?genre definitions. A closer look at the literature of zappai as it exists in Japanese literary history and contemporary literary culture seems warranted.

 

[champagne1982]

That reminds me of Foxworthy...

You might be a redneck, if you ever had your nipple bitten off by a beaver...


We can do the vines, as long as it's not poison ivy.


I do admit, that I have never enjoyed a visit to the ER.

Beavers are gentle little rodents who wouldn't bite the nipples off a fly... or was that wings?

Hell, I dunno but don't be dissin our national rodent...

Sincerely, Carrie the Canadian Nipple Nibbler.

 

[Tzara]

Then I can tell you what I had for dinner and call it poetry. I can point to a rock and call it a dick. It's a dick. I'm going to bed.

eve

Yes, of course you can. The problem is how does one define poetry? I haven't seen any good definition. Definitions seem to waffle around about image most frequently, but concrete poetry often doesn't have imagery and sound poetry normally does not. Maybe those aren't poems. Dunno.

One of the things I have come to be unhappy with is how some of us (myself included) dismiss some people's writing by saying "this isn't poetry." Or "that's just prose with line breaks." The most recent book by James Tate (Pulitzer Prize-winning poet, though of course that itself is a stigma for some people) looks to me like "prose with line breaks." So is it poetry or prose?

Ultimately, who cares? Marketing question, probably.

My current thinking is that it is better to try and think of things as the author thought of them. If they think what they have written is a poem, then OK, it's a poem.

I then decide if I think it's a good poem or not. Often I decide it's not.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Haikai as a Pyramid: Zappai, Senryu, and Haiku
Broadly speaking, we can view all of haikai as a pyramid composed of three basic elements: zappai, senryu, and haiku. We are all familiar with the terms senryu and haiku, but what is "zappai"? In Japanese poetry, zappai includes all types of seventeen syllable poems that do not have the proper formal or technical characteristics of haiku - the cutting word, season word, rules for the use of postpositional particles and specific verb endings. It was a popular form of entertainment in the Edo period that includes many kinds of linking games, including the one from which senryu developed. If we look at all of what is presented today as "haiku," a large number of so-called haiku are, like zappai, imaginative or imaginary, wit-based poems that are written or shared for the entertainment of the reader and writer. Unlike haiku, these poems often have no relation to nature. Unlike senryu, these poems make no attempt to distinguish between the imaginative and the imaginary. This includes things like spam haiku, sci-fi haiku and their ilk. While it is appropriate to recognize these poems as part of the haikai tradition, they are not haiku except in the sense that they share with haiku the characteristic of brevity. In the past, I have proposed the use of the term kyôku to describe these poems. Kyôku means "mad verse," and these poems certainly share madness with the most imaginative haikai of the Japanese tradition. In fact, one could go as far as to say that they represent the true legacy of the haikai that Bashô inherited, and out of which haiku developed as an independent art. But, as it turns out, kyôku itself is part of this larger imaginative tradition called zappai in Japanese. While zappai were recognized as a form of poetic entertainment, they were not recognized as being as high an art as either haiku or senryu.

Zappai thus defined may be a handy label for the majority of what is written today in the name of "haiku." If they are not the majority, they are certainly the kind of "haiku" that command the most attention in the media. Zappai, then, form the base of our pyramid and account for most of its volume, either literally or figuratively. Zappai, as a sort of poetic entertainment, provide the point of entry for many poets into the haikai tradition and the writing of zappai enables people to develop the skills and interest for subsequent exploration of other elements of this tradition.

While the term zappai is unfamiliar to most American students of haiku, I believe its adoption will provide us with a useful category to help us understand that while much of what is being written today under the name of haiku is not genuine haiku, it is still a legitimate part of the haikai tradition. Those who object to the introduction of this term might simply want to use the term "pseudo-haiku" to categorize the poems I am describing here.


These are examples of zappai, a miscellaneous group of poems whose main point of contact with haiku is its outwardly similar formal aspect. Usually written in 3 lines of 5 - 7 - 5 syllables (far more often than contemporary haiku, for instance), these purport to be haiku but lack most of the internal components we have come to recognize which distinguish haiku. Nevertheless, these can be fun, and so long as we recognize the differences between the various forms, harmless enough to the appreciation and achievement of genuine art. Other kinds of zappai include sci-fiku:

Earth-Tansen treaty talks
the alien ambassador lying
out of each mouth
John Dunphy

corporate-ku:

Truly, the Wise One
is creative: he invents
his own statistics.
William Warriner

vampire-ku:

The Brujah have no
concept of society.
Come Kiss My Ra, fool!
Zappai is an important literary term, pre-existing in Japanese literature and culture has been introduced as an English?language term in order apparently to lend credence to what is an English?language literary issue. Since there has been scant public mention of zappai, or substantive discussion relating to potential problems of its use in English,[2] it is unclear how this term has suddenly found its way into two important English-language haiku?genre definitions. A closer look at the literature of zappai as it exists in Japanese literary history and contemporary literary culture seems warranted.

Thanks blue~

I am intrigued with the many types of (Ku) as I am the many opinions of eve's original statement!

I like Haiku-Fu myself

 

[wildsweetone]

if you want to write a critique isn't it as simple as saying something like:

This is a critique of your poem, it is my opinion. If you wish to learn more, come to the Poetry Forum.


...and then state your critique. It's only a few words to add. And well, if you don't want to take the heat for your own opinion, could it be because it's not formed correctly? (that was said with tongue in cheek in case you can't tell.)

if you're going to have an opinion, cool.
if you're going to say that opinion out loud, then be prepared for others to comment, both good and bad.

but make sure you know that what you're saying is correct.

and, if you're worried about 'trolls' saying you're incorrect, be knowledgeable enough to prove your point, should you wish to.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Yes, of course you can. The problem is how does one define poetry? I haven't seen any good definition. Definitions seem to waffle around about image most frequently, but concrete poetry often doesn't have imagery and sound poetry normally does not. Maybe those aren't poems. Dunno.

One of the things I have come to be unhappy with is how some of us (myself included) dismiss some people's writing by saying "this isn't poetry." Or "that's just prose with line breaks." The most recent book by James Tate (Pulitzer Prize-winning poet, though of course that itself is a stigma for some people) looks to me like "prose with line breaks." So is it poetry or prose?

Ultimately, who cares? Marketing question, probably.

My current thinking is that it is better to try and think of things as the author thought of them. If they think what they have written is a poem, then OK, it's a poem.

I then decide if I think it's a good poem or not. Often I decide it's not.

very good point, I agree

I heard: Poetry is felt and absorbed into a soul. Describing it... is hard.

 

[Christina O. Leigh]

Do you see why so many poets have gotten frustrated here?

Yup, sure do.

On another note: Eve, why not comment on the poem instead of making a thread about it? I'm sure it would be more helpful unless you've already done so privately.

 

[dcpoet44]

Yes, of course you can. The problem is how does one define poetry? I haven't seen any good definition. Definitions seem to waffle around about image most frequently, but concrete poetry often doesn't have imagery and sound poetry normally does not. Maybe those aren't poems. Dunno.

One of the things I have come to be unhappy with is how some of us (myself included) dismiss some people's writing by saying "this isn't poetry." Or "that's just prose with line breaks." The most recent book by James Tate (Pulitzer Prize-winning poet, though of course that itself is a stigma for some people) looks to me like "prose with line breaks." So is it poetry or prose?

Ultimately, who cares? Marketing question, probably.

My current thinking is that it is better to try and think of things as the author thought of them. If they think what they have written is a poem, then OK, it's a poem.

I then decide if I think it's a good poem or not. Often I decide it's not.

I hope I got a handle on this qoute stuff right, but it better be the one left by Tzara. I feel that even if prose is written with line breaks, it still constitute a poem. I think if the prose piece is small, it works well. However longer pieces with considerable length should be contstructed in the paragraph form. As for me, the reason why I use it more than heavy vivid imagery time and time again, is that it doesn't take a lot of time fighting with the exact placement of each line. I think prose gives one a bit more flexibility. I simply have to say that is what Bukowski did. It was marketable, and many times even a longer poem would take three pages in the printed form. So, it does work. To me if it looks like a poetic format. It's a poem, regardless of the style of poetry. It comes down to individual tastes. I try to learn from both sides and create from both sides. That's my take.

 

[Tathagata]

I just read a new poem. Actually, it's a non-poem (IMO). And since it's online for the entire internet public to read, then I'd like to discuss it.

A BDSM Haiku
by moonglowkitten ©

Whip me, beat me
make me cum.
You’re my Master.

It's not haiku. It isn't what haiku is about. It isn't even poetic. It's a statement with line breaks, but already it has one good feedback. Do you think the majority of people no longer know what poetry really is? How do you even tell a new poet that she just wrote something that isn't a poem? At least, in my opinion, it's not. I know many lit members don't really care about poetry. All they want is to submit their group of words for one reason or the other--like for their master, lover, to see their words online, etc.

I suppose I shouldn't let it concern me. I know there are other forums and sites that more about poetry than lit, but I think the readers of lit represent the average reader. And the average reader and writer wants TV dinner poetry--easy and instant gratification.

The real problem here is that it's not haiku
haiku had definite rules one should adhere too
Poetry, as has been said a gazillion times here, is like art, Warhol may have been art, may have been crap, same can be said of most poetry.
What moves you, strikes you, makes you think etc would be poetry
That's how I define it.

it's all personal preference
if you think it's crap, why would you want to tell someone unless they ask you?
as for putting it out there justifying that...if you believe that telling them its not poetry will help, then do so.

Most people who are serious about poetry will improve over time, they'll read other poetry, ask questions, try different structures and forms, etc.
People who aren't will write the same things over and over and your advice won't mean a thing...until and if they are ready to hear it.

I've come to the conclusion that unless someone asks specifically for my thoughts, I don't know enough to just offer them.
It's worked very well for me so far

 

[WickedEve]

Yup, sure do.

On another note: Eve, why not comment on the poem instead of making a thread about it? I'm sure it would be more helpful unless you've already done so privately.

Sure it's good to comment on the person's work, but I made the thread for me, not the "poet." The thread has generated interesting comments. Thanks everyone.

 

[annaswirls]

canned version: poetry is what you want it to be, no more, no less.

I know it is your intention
to put me over your knee
but I assure you, lil' darling
the spanking will come from me

 

[annaswirls]

I love you for writing this so I didn't have to! My thoughts exactly and you say it so nicely!

if you want to write a critique isn't it as simple as saying something like:

This is a critique of your poem, it is my opinion. If you wish to learn more, come to the Poetry Forum.


...and then state your critique. It's only a few words to add. And well, if you don't want to take the heat for your own opinion, could it be because it's not formed correctly? (that was said with tongue in cheek in case you can't tell.)

if you're going to have an opinion, cool.
if you're going to say that opinion out loud, then be prepared for others to comment, both good and bad.

but make sure you know that what you're saying is correct.

and, if you're worried about 'trolls' saying you're incorrect, be knowledgeable enough to prove your point, should you wish to.