Do you believe spanking is an appropriate discipline for a child?

[intothewoods]

This may be a question which will clutter up the parental debates for centuries to come, yet som common sense needs to be applied here as well as in parenting.

I grew up in the ranch country of West Texas, where a child who did not move or obey his parent fast enough, could become a greasy spot in the middle of a cow pen or a horse stall in the twinkling of an eye. My parents and grandparents were wise enough to understand that you cannot explain to a four year old the difference in mass and inertia statistics between a 45 lb little boy and a 1000 lb horse or a 2500 lb bull. What they could get across to the wee one was ----- If you don't do exactly as your father says, when he says to do it, your bottom is going to sting something awful. ------ The widom of my forbears seemed to understand the mind of a four year old and the dangers of ranch life. As a consequence, I lived long enough to see the day that my father looked down at me and said, "You are too old to spank. If you do something that you know is wrong or that you understand that your mother and I have forbidden you to do, ------- It is going to cost you. That's the way life is, and that's the way your life will be till the day you move out on your own."

Contrary to many psychological opinions, this not only kept me alive in a dangerous country long enough to develop some judgement, but it caused me to adore my parents. That is something that has never left me.

I was spanked as a small child. I'm glad that my folks were strong enough to do that when it meant that I might survive long enough to see them give up that practice in favor of common sense. I had a cousin whose parents refused to lay a hand on their child. As I remember, he was wilful and disobediant -----and died in a terrible, avoidable accident before his tenth birthday.

Well, that settles it then. I don't want my child to die in a terrible, avoidable accident, so I will begin spanking him immediately.

 

[caela]

I don't know that flinching and parental observation is necessarily the best indicator. Kids are frequently a lot more emotionally facile than they get credit for, and they can hide a lot. I suspect there are a lot of parents who hit their kids in some manner who think their kids are perfectly fine and not at all traumatized by it, and their kids would say otherwise if pressed.

Because I'm not omnipotent, I can't say with absolute 100% certainty where the threshold is between "leaving no ill effects while child knows 'corporal punishment might happen if [they do] something bad enough'", and that child having even the slightest doubt of why they've been hit, or the fear of it happening again when they can't tell it will happen -- was this time bad enough for it? Will they live in fear of doing something wrong because they just never know?



I think you're right and those cases are usually more severe than your own, but it's not a line I'm willing to push. Unless I can predict exactly what's going on in their head -- which is impossible -- I think I have no damn business doing it.

I respect that. Everyone parents differently and, mostly, we make it up as we go along. We all have ideas about what works and doesn't based on trial and error with our own children, and how our parents raised us, and even gleaned from what we've seen in friends and how they were raised/how they raise their children. For the most part I don't really believe that much in the way of lasting damage gets done unless a parent is actually abusive on some level whether it's physical or emotional.

 

[bambikiller]

Yes but I very rearly do.
Like never.
I threaten her with it, but no.

My little girl when she was about 3 was not getting in the tub for her bath and just being a pian in the butt about it so I smacked her bare ass.
She turned around to me and said "Daddy that was just a little too hard"
I had to turn my head so she wouldn't see me me laughing.
It almost killed me it was so funny.
I gain my composure and turnd around a said "It was suppose to hurt now get in the tub"

But no my kid is good and it not nessasary there are usualy better ways of handling it like giving them the lecture so they are thinking to them selves "Damn I just wish he would have smacked me so I wouldn't have to lesson to all this".

Now my old girl friends Oh yeah.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

Study: Spanking Kids Leads to More Aggressive Behavior
By ALICE PARK – Mon Apr 12, 1:50 am ET

Disciplining young children is one of the key jobs of any parent - most people would have no trouble agreeing with that. But whether or not that discipline should include spanking or other forms of corporal punishment is a far trickier issue.

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) does not endorse spanking for any reason, citing its lack of long-term effectiveness as a behavior-changing tactic. Instead the AAP supports strategies such as "time-outs" when children misbehave, which focus on getting kids to reflect on their behavior and the consequences of their actions. Still, as many parents can attest, few responses bring about the immediate interruption of a full-blown tantrum like a swift whack to the bottom.

Now researchers at Tulane University provide the strongest evidence yet against the use of spanking: of the nearly 2,500 youngsters in the study, those who were spanked more frequently at age 3 were more likely to be aggressive by age 5. The research supports earlier work on the pitfalls of corporal punishment, including a study by Duke University researchers that revealed that infants who were spanked at 12 months scored lower on cognitive tests at age 3.

"I'm excited by the idea that there is now some nice hard data that can back up clinicians when they share their caution with parents against using corporal punishment," says Dr. Jayne Singer, clinical director of the child and parent program at Children's Hospital Boston, who was not involved in the study.

Led by Catherine Taylor, the Tulane study was the first to control simultaneously for variables that are most likely to confound the association between spanking and later aggressive behavior. The researchers accounted for factors such as acts of neglect by the mother, violence or aggression between the parents, maternal stress and depression, the mother's use of alcohol and drugs, and even whether the mother considered abortion while pregnant with the child.

Each of these factors contributed to children's aggressive behavior at age 5, but they could not explain all of the violent tendencies at that age. Further, the positive connection between spanking and aggression remained strong, even after these factors had been accounted for.

"The odds of a child being more aggressive at age 5 if he had been spanked more than twice in the month before the study began increased by 50%," says Taylor. And because her group also accounted for varying levels of natural aggression in children, the researchers are confident that "it's not just that children who are more aggressive are more likely to be spanked."
What the study, published Monday in the journal Pediatrics, shows is that outside of the most obvious factors that may influence violent behavior in children, spanking remains a strong predictor. "This study controls for the most common risk factors that people tend to think of as being associated with aggression," says Singer. "This adds more credence, more data and more strength to the argument against using corporal punishment."

Among the mothers who were studied, nearly half (45.6%) reported no spanking in the previous month; 27.9% reported spanking once or twice; and 26.5% reported spanking more than twice. Compared with children who were not hit, those who were spanked were more likely to be defiant, demand immediate satisfaction of their wants and needs, get frustrated easily, have temper tantrums and lash out physically against others.

The reason for that, says Singer, may be that spanking instills fear rather than understanding. Even if a child were to stop his screaming tantrum when spanked, that doesn't mean he understands why he shouldn't be acting out in the first place. What's more, spanking models aggressive behavior as a solution to problems.

For children to understand what and why they have done something wrong, it may take repeated efforts on the parent's part, using time-outs - a strategy that typically involves denying the child any attention, praise or interaction with parents for a specified period of time (that is, the parents ignore the child). These quiet times force children to calm down and learn to think about their emotions, rather than acting out on them blindly.

Spanking may stop a child from misbehaving in the short term, but it becomes less and less effective with repeated use, according to the AAP; it also makes discipline more difficult as the child gets older and outgrows spanking. As the latest study shows, investing the time early on to teach a child why his behavior is wrong may translate to a more self-aware and in-control youngster in the long run.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100412/hl_time/08599198101900

 

[Soumis]

I'm not going to say that a swat on the butt is the end of the world, but it is an admission that a parent's moral authority has been reduced to "I'm bigger than you."

I have to agree here. There came a point when I realized this about my Dad, the spanker of my parents. And I hated him for it.

When I was little the fear of spanking was very prominent when it came to dictating my behavior. I don't think that my Dad was ever inappropriate physically. No lasting bruises, no physical harm, but the terror I experienced as times was completely uncalled for given that my transgressions weren't of the dangerous kind, merely the verbally willful. The last spanking I had was at 13. I distinctly remember thinking this is wrong, I'm too old, he's out of control, hitting due to personal offense and anger, and telling my Dad this. It made the spanking worse of course. This instance is all I need to not approve of spanking kids.

 

[unknooown]

I agree with whoever said quick swat to the bottom is appropriate. Granted the only experience I've had is with my nephew and my girlfriend's nephew, both who are under two.

I was never spanked as a child but my older brother (who I'm not miraculously close with) would beat the shit out of whenever he felt the need. Probably nothing much worse than your average big brother bully. He has a kid now and while it's not the same, whenever I see him going for more than one swat I intervene. It drives him mad, but the truth is what will it accomplish? Not that he's going to beat his toddler but that I genuinely believe if you hit them more than once, ESPECIALLY at this age, they've lost the meaning of it by the second hit.

I could have benefited from a few more punishments (groundings, rights being revoked) but I can't see how spanking, or any sort of physical punishment beyond a swat, could get the point across. Once, and they think Shit, I don't want to do that again. More than once and they're hurt, resentful, humiliated.

Humiliation is hard enough for an adult, let alone a child.

I have had a great time with Tom Collins tonight. So much so that I might not be making sense.

 

[unknooown]

Only child.

I was basically treated as much like an adult as they could. No baby talk, full sentences, and I was expected to respond similarly. I remember being 6 years old in first grade, and having no ability to relate to most of the kids I was in class with. They were childish and couldn't communicate worth a damn.

And, same year, I remember some adult, no clue whom, going on and on to my mother about she'd had an intelligent, adult style conversation with me, and I held my own. My mom said something to me about it later (this part I don't recall, but I've heard the story many times) and I was apparently rather unimpressed with the intellect of the person I was dealing with. I said something to the effect of how I'd slowed down what I was saying so that she'd understand what I was getting at.

I was a weird kid, and my parents were apparently weird as well, and it colours my parenting. Fortunately, my kids are pretty weird too.

Something similar happened to me. My parents, I think, treated me like a kid but my older brother was still young enough to remember what it felt like to be that age and was apparently still insulted by their behaviour. He started teaching me stuff he was reading for school when I was like 6, so maybe he had to be 10 or 11. He showed me a book of greek gods and goddesses and we had gotten this parrot and I hadn't named her yet, and she laid eggs every once in a while (unfertilized) so eventually I named her Taweret (goddess of childbirth).

I told my teacher the next day that I finally picked out a name for my parakeet and I was so excited to tell her until I did and she had no idea what I was talking about. She called me parents to say I should probably not be reading about the goddess of chidlbirth at 6 years old, to which they replied they were thrilled I was reading anything besides Dr. Seuss at six years old, and I was just so unimpressed with that very sweet woman for the rest of the schoolyear.

 

[Netzach]

Funniest thing ever - I bought a 1932 better homes and gardens for ripping up and making into backgrounds for art - and there's an article in there

"Little Peter has Never been Spanked" - it was examining this very kooky and out there family who basically decided not to spank their kid. In 1932. The debate was pretty shockingly similar to this one.

 

[intothewoods]

Funniest thing ever - I bought a 1932 better homes and gardens for ripping up and making into backgrounds for art - and there's an article in there

"Little Peter has Never been Spanked" - it was examining this very kooky and out there family who basically decided not to spank their kid. In 1932. The debate was pretty shockingly similar to this one.

I love that shit. Where did you get it? An antique store? I used to have some old cooking magazines, and finally got rid of them. Totally regret it. I should check out ebay.

 

[Netzach]

I love that shit. Where did you get it? An antique store? I used to have some old cooking magazines, and finally got rid of them. Totally regret it. I should check out ebay.

Yeah, a local antique place. I just thought of this thread, and how contemporary we think our debates are.

 

[N_B]

I grew up with a regular ass beating. And I mean the full gamut from a mildy stingin bottom, to having wooden paddles broken across my ass. Hands to swift kicks to the ol' leather belt. It sucked as a kid.

But I think I turned out okay, and it taught me quick that some things are just not done, else there will be severe and painful consequences.

Of course, an explanation was always given after the spanking. Like one time I took a silver dollar from atop my folks dresser. Later that day, I got a suprise boot in the ass, and heard "That's for stealing."
It worked.

Time out would only give me time to figure out a way to not get caught next time. Or just a chance to sit and be left alone. That's a reward for bad behaviour, not a punishment.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I was reading about the latest findings on this issue from Developmental Psychology, in Yahoo News or something.

A paper has been published showing that spanked kids become aggressive.

Anyhow, in the comments section, someone posts:


WANT YOUR KID TO BE A MILK TOAST---DONT SPANK


WANT YOUR KID TO BE AGGRESSIVE, DEFEND HIMSELF, EXCEL AT SPORTS, BUSINESS, LIFE--SPANK

 

[rosco rathbone]

Paddling returns to rural Texas:

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/04/texas-city-brings-paddling-back-schools

 

[Netzach]

Paddling returns to rural Texas:

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/04/texas-city-brings-paddling-back-schools

Honestly that worries me less than the mysterious boot camp and youth prison deaths. First things first.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Found an interesting link:

http://nospank.net/sexdngrs.htm

 

[rosco rathbone]

“These are the realities that most of us remain eager to deny... So long as children are beaten by adults, the obsessions with domination and submission, with power and authority, with shame and humiliation, with painful pleasure – all hallmarks of sadomasochism – will remain an enduring consequence of the ordinary violence and coercion done in the name of discipline... Sadomasochism is not an aberration; it is inherent in corporal punishment...”
Philip Greven, professor of history. Spare the Child (1990)

Yikes.

 

[vintage63]

I have never hit my children and they turned out just fine. I have also work with children in the mental health system and can tell you that no matter how much you think you have not done any emotional damage, you have. It's never a good idea to hit a child.

You can teach a child so much more that he can use in life in you teach him how to talk and how to listen and how to be responsible for his actions.

I also have no idea why this thread is relevant here.

 

[radepor]

Good Heavens; sounds like me -- another only

I could never understand why, at family gatherings, the adults always sought me out and I never enjoyed being with the other children -- even the older ones.

Spankings, tho; the subject: Re my earlier post; perhaps it was because I was mentally/emotionally older than my 10-11 years when I committed larceny that my father felt it necessary for the one and only time to strike me with his belt (2-3 times). Maybe he was a sadist - don't think so. Maybe he was a control freak - don't think so. Maybe he was wise enough to sense what form of discipline would work - maybe. We'll never know -- it did, by the way.

Only child.

I was basically treated as much like an adult as they could. No baby talk, full sentences, and I was expected to respond similarly. I remember being 6 years old in first grade, and having no ability to relate to most of the kids I was in class with. They were childish and couldn't communicate worth a damn.

And, same year, I remember some adult, no clue whom, going on and on to my mother about she'd had an intelligent, adult style conversation with me, and I held my own. My mom said something to me about it later (this part I don't recall, but I've heard the story many times) and I was apparently rather unimpressed with the intellect of the person I was dealing with. I said something to the effect of how I'd slowed down what I was saying so that she'd understand what I was getting at.

I was a weird kid, and my parents were apparently weird as well, and it colours my parenting. Fortunately, my kids are pretty weird too.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I also have no idea why this thread is relevant here.

There may be a scientific link between childhood spanking and BDSM. I find it highly relevant, but then I like poking my nose in the grey areas.

 

[intothewoods]

There may be a scientific link between childhood spanking and BDSM. I find it highly relevant, but then I like poking my nose in the grey areas.

I don't know. Some people think there may be a link, but I think most scientists don't believe the evidence is there. Clearly not all people who were spanked are into bdsm, but it's impossible to know if spanking a child trips some sort of erotic trigger in the brain, in ways we may not realize.

 

[teknight]

No.
Kids shouldn't study spanking.

 

[teknight]

I don't know. Some people think there may be a link, but I think most scientists don't believe the evidence is there. Clearly not all people who were spanked are into bdsm, but it's impossible to know if spanking a child trips some sort of erotic trigger in the brain, in ways we may not realize.

It's not so much the triggering as the pairing....Which leads me to the question: in the sensory motor cortex, are the genitals close to the buttocks? I know the feet are, hence foot fetishes....

 

[bhndblueyes88]

I approve of physically discplining children when they reach a certain point where positive reinforcement and verbal correction fail to correct a problem. I only advocate this in the instance where a child is old enough to realize what they did wrong and why. I do not think you should discpline to injure, only enough to sting and get your point across.

Example. When I was younger (I think around 10), I blew a raspberry in my dad's face when I was in trouble and being scolded. I copped one across the face. Not hard; it surprised me more than anything. I never. ever. did this again, or anything like it. Not out of fear that I would be hit, but because hitting was such a serious punishment in our family that if my parents used it I knew I had crossed a hard line. It was a very clear and concrete notification that I had gone too far.

I believe spanking can be appropriate. It should not be the first, second, third, fourth, or even fifth option. And it should never be used when the child cannot understand the full extent of their actions.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I approve of physically discplining children when they reach a certain point where positive reinforcement and verbal correction fail to correct a problem. I only advocate this in the instance where a child is old enough to realize what they did wrong and why. I do not think you should discpline to injure, only enough to sting and get your point across.

Example. When I was younger (I think around 10), I blew a raspberry in my dad's face when I was in trouble and being scolded. I copped one across the face. Not hard; it surprised me more than anything. I never. ever. did this again, or anything like it. Not out of fear that I would be hit, but because hitting was such a serious punishment in our family that if my parents used it I knew I had crossed a hard line. It was a very clear and concrete notification that I had gone too far.

I believe spanking can be appropriate. It should not be the first, second, third, fourth, or even fifth option. And it should never be used when the child cannot understand the full extent of their actions.

I got laced for calling my mom a "bitch" and I had it coming.

 

[sb2009]

as we approach the holidays, I must inject this bit of family lore.

One Christmas morning, my much loved, indulged, petted upon husband was slapped in the face. It has grown in legend, this incident. His mother is horrified and says it never happend. He says he was being "greedy and ungrateful." He was "young" but not sure how young.

He was raised unconventionally, but there is no doubt about the fact that he was loved - the whole family thinks he walks on water to this day. Spanking, hitting, etc was never a part of his life.

Except for this one day. It will live in infamy. It's long running joke that just gets better with age. "Don't do that, you'll get slapped on Christmas!"