Do you believe spanking is an appropriate discipline for a child?

[Homburg]

The military example is interesting. Thanks. Are you the oldest? My parents were somewhat like that too. I wouldn't call it treating me like an adult, but definitely gave me the space to behave as maturely as I was.

Only child.

I was basically treated as much like an adult as they could. No baby talk, full sentences, and I was expected to respond similarly. I remember being 6 years old in first grade, and having no ability to relate to most of the kids I was in class with. They were childish and couldn't communicate worth a damn.

And, same year, I remember some adult, no clue whom, going on and on to my mother about she'd had an intelligent, adult style conversation with me, and I held my own. My mom said something to me about it later (this part I don't recall, but I've heard the story many times) and I was apparently rather unimpressed with the intellect of the person I was dealing with. I said something to the effect of how I'd slowed down what I was saying so that she'd understand what I was getting at.

I was a weird kid, and my parents were apparently weird as well, and it colours my parenting. Fortunately, my kids are pretty weird too.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Fear, to me, is an emotional response to impending danger or pain, resulting from that which I can not control...



I have no frame of reference to make sense of that statement in bold. Fear of enemies or opponents? I get that. Fear of unreasonable authority figures, prone to physical discipline? I get that, too. But fear of an authority figure whose character one respects? To me, that just doesn't make sense. I'm not saying you're wrong to feel as you do; I am simply saying that I don't get it.

i think for me fear is just a bit more complex. if you were a Christian i could give you a great example by asking the question, do you fear God? that fear which grows from deep reverence and awe is the fear i have toward my Master, and absolutely MUST have in order to respect a man as the Ruler of my life.

another way to describe it is power...or rather, the utter lack of power (helplessness). i fear because he has all the power and i have none, because i know the man he is and what he is capable of, because he is the center of my universe and i am nothing and have nothing without him. at the same time, these are the very things i need in order to feel secure in the relationship and to feel whole and purposeful as a human being.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Only child.

I was basically treated as much like an adult as they could. No baby talk, full sentences, and I was expected to respond similarly. I remember being 6 years old in first grade, and having no ability to relate to most of the kids I was in class with. They were childish and couldn't communicate worth a damn.

And, same year, I remember some adult, no clue whom, going on and on to my mother about she'd had an intelligent, adult style conversation with me, and I held my own. My mom said something to me about it later (this part I don't recall, but I've heard the story many times) and I was apparently rather unimpressed with the intellect of the person I was dealing with. I said something to the effect of how I'd slowed down what I was saying so that she'd understand what I was getting at.

wow...reading that really brought back memories of my own childhood as a "weird" kid (also an only), and the impossible time i had relating to 99.98% of my peers and being completely incomprehensible to my teachers. apparently it is considered taboo for a 7 yr old to correct her 3rd grade teacher's grammar. lol

 

[BiBunny]

Fear, to me, is not "oh, shit, he's gonna do something bad, and it's gonna suck really bad for me." When I speak of fearing my Master, it means that I know exactly what he's capable of and exactly what I'll do to avoid that, i.e., anything.

ETA: OSG beat me to it. Also, I think being "weird" is part and parcel of being an only child.

 

[Homburg]

wow...reading that really brought back memories of my own childhood as a "weird" kid (also an only), and the impossible time i had relating to 99.98% of my peers and being completely incomprehensible to my teachers. apparently it is considered taboo for a 7 yr old to correct her 3rd grade teacher's grammar. lol

*snort*

That brought back memories.

 

[caela]

For the record, my "no" meant: "No, I do not consider spanking to be an appropriate discipline for a child." Literally, exactly that.

Anyone taking umbrage should note that "inappropriate" and "abusive" are not synonyms.

As an aside - not that I expect spankers to give a fuck what I think about their disciplinary habits, but you really don't do your image any favors when you proclaim that spanking is "necessary." (To someone who was raised well without spanking, and has observed countless others - of all personality types - raised well without spanking, that assertion just comes off as flatly absurd.)

Nor does it help when you state that the only three disciplinary options you can think of are spanking, lecturing, and time outs. That statement reflects an appalling lack of consideration of alternatives to corporal punishment.

I can think of more disciplinary options than spanking, time-outs and lectures. Those three just tend to be the most commonly mentioned so they are where I've focused my own attention. That and most of the punishments that run through my head aren't appropriate for my daughter yet as they mostly involved the repetition of skills she hasn't learned yet (she's only 15 months).

Once she's older I probably won't go in much for groundings or the taking away of toys/games/tv etc. much (I'll try them but don't expect them to be particularly effective) because those particular punishments didn't work well on me or anyone else in my family that I am aware of. They simply made me bored which often led to me getting into MORE trouble. It seems to be a family trait that the most effective punishments were usually things like a double duty of chores or having to repeat the same chore more than once (like having to clean the bathroom repeatedly when I'd half-assed my chores, never scrimped on them again lol).

I wouldn't say that SP is "necessary" for every child by a long shot (have said repeatedly that all kids are unique) or even that it's ever necessary for any child. I will say that for some children it is the most effective means of teaching a lesson with the least possible stress for everyone involved.

 

[caela]

This is fascinating to me, because I am okay with physical punishment [if necessary] in my relationships - because I am a grown woman and we can discuss the whys and wherefores both before and after punishment occurs, and I have the ability to reason through things. (Something I don't believe a young child can do.) Maybe it's tied to that ginormous penitent streak I have running through me...

Having said that - it's still a major goal in my world to avoid punishment. Period. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been punished (vs. disciplined), because I do everything possible to not fuck up. When talking to a potential Lover, I'm always like - um, yeah... and I don't get punished. The last guy I said that to tried to argue that punishing me for an invented infraction was part of mind fucking. [No that's a great way to piss me off and mess with my head in a bad way.] My kinky co-worker is totally baffled by the idea that I won't brat or taunt to get a spanking - because how else am I going to get punished? [Uh, yeah... I don't get punished.]

Huh??? This is an attitude I don't get either. Why would I want to be punished? Now granted I can be a brat and I can taunt but that isn't usually to get a rise out of anyone or to get punished, it's just me being a goofball most of the time.

If I want a spanking/flogging/caning/etc. I am an adult and perfectly capable of asking for one.

 

[JMohegan]

i think for me fear is just a bit more complex. if you were a Christian i could give you a great example by asking the question, do you fear God? that fear which grows from deep reverence and awe is the fear i have toward my Master, and absolutely MUST have in order to respect a man as the Ruler of my life.

another way to describe it is power...or rather, the utter lack of power (helplessness). i fear because he has all the power and i have none, because i know the man he is and what he is capable of, because he is the center of my universe and i am nothing and have nothing without him. at the same time, these are the very things i need in order to feel secure in the relationship and to feel whole and purposeful as a human being.

I've always assumed that Christians would NOT fear god, because they would be certain that as long as they believed in Jesus and asked for forgiveness or whatever, then god would take care of them. Eternally. That even though god seems to let cruel, agonizing, and truly hideous things happen on earth, there's some ultimate plan or whatever, and it will all come out right in the end.

I've always assumed the difference between Christians and me is that they got hit with the faith stick and therefore trust that god is, or will be, infinintely just (hence the reverence thing), whereas I look at the world and conclude that a Sentient Being, if he/she/it exists, is neither just, nor fair, nor forthright (hence infinitely terrifying).

It's really confusing for me to think that Christians fear god. I have no idea why that would be so.

 

[ownedsubgal]

you've never heard the phrase "God-fearing?"

http://www.myspace.com/godfearingyouth

http://www.atruechurch.info/fearofgod.html

http://www.mp3lyrics.org/b/ben-harper/god-fearing-man/


of course i'm no Christian either, but that's always been one of the few concepts of the religion i could identify with.

 

[JMohegan]

you've never heard the phrase "God-fearing?"

http://www.myspace.com/godfearingyouth

http://www.atruechurch.info/fearofgod.html

http://www.mp3lyrics.org/b/ben-harper/god-fearing-man/


of course i'm no Christian either, but that's always been one of the few concepts of the religion i could identify with.

Ha! I guess I haven't been paying close enough attention.

 

[intothewoods]

Only child.

I was basically treated as much like an adult as they could. No baby talk, full sentences, and I was expected to respond similarly. I remember being 6 years old in first grade, and having no ability to relate to most of the kids I was in class with. They were childish and couldn't communicate worth a damn.

And, same year, I remember some adult, no clue whom, going on and on to my mother about she'd had an intelligent, adult style conversation with me, and I held my own. My mom said something to me about it later (this part I don't recall, but I've heard the story many times) and I was apparently rather unimpressed with the intellect of the person I was dealing with. I said something to the effect of how I'd slowed down what I was saying so that she'd understand what I was getting at.

I was a weird kid, and my parents were apparently weird as well, and it colours my parenting. Fortunately, my kids are pretty weird too.

I had a similar experience, and my younger sibling was treated similarly. I think it's a really good thing, and the only concern with only children is that they also learn sharing and responsibility for others. That's absolutely something parents of singletons can make sure they learn though.

wow...reading that really brought back memories of my own childhood as a "weird" kid (also an only), and the impossible time i had relating to 99.98% of my peers and being completely incomprehensible to my teachers. apparently it is considered taboo for a 7 yr old to correct her 3rd grade teacher's grammar. lol

Eek, there's a sorry state of affairs. I don't think it's rude for a 7 year old to correct her teacher though, as long as it's done respectfully.

 

[Netzach]

I also was an only, similar stories about verbal intelligence and reading readiness and all that. I was reading something about it though later on, much later, written by the principal of the elementary school I went to, and I was like "oh man, Mr. S-- nailed it" He talked about dealing with the sophistication of onlies and remembering that these are children, they're just children who parrot adults more successfully because that's all they're around. I mean I never felt especially *weird* I felt more that it was stressful and annoying that everyone insisted I was *weird.*

I mean I guess I was, I just didn't understand where the label came from from inside it. I think for an only child I probably wasn't weird at all.

 

[ataxia.girl]

If I want a spanking/flogging/caning/etc. I am an adult and perfectly capable of asking for one.

This just saps all the excitement out of it for me. Like completely. If all i need is pain i can do that to myself.

i want to see the flash of anger in his face when i say or do something over an invisible line neither of us knew was there until i stepped over it. i like to watch him pause before reacting all the while looking at him with eyes that could only be interpreted as "i dare you."

 

[Homburg]

I also was an only, similar stories about verbal intelligence and reading readiness and all that. I was reading something about it though later on, much later, written by the principal of the elementary school I went to, and I was like "oh man, Mr. S-- nailed it" He talked about dealing with the sophistication of onlies and remembering that these are children, they're just children who parrot adults more successfully because that's all they're around. I mean I never felt especially *weird* I felt more that it was stressful and annoying that everyone insisted I was *weird.*

I mean I guess I was, I just didn't understand where the label came from from inside it. I think for an only child I probably wasn't weird at all.

I resented people expecting that it was so odd for me growing up without siblings. This was a total non-starter for me, as I'd never had siblings, and had no meaningful frame of reference. Given that my dad was army, and we moved around a lot, it wasn't like I got to see my parents around their siblings. Siblings were just a non-issue.

The rest of it didn't strike me as weird until I looked at it in hindsight. And it still strikes me that way when I look at my own kids and get just how different they are. The fact that viv is (essentially) an only child as well, means that the sibling issue is alien to her too.MIS being around actually helps with understanding.

 

[Sayyid]

No, I don't believe violence is ever necessary to discipline a child, and I was a bit surprised by how many people here are in favour of spanking but then I remembered most users are probably American, where attitudes are generally more conservative.

Plus it's the BDSM forum and all.

 

[perfect_curls]

No, I don't believe violence is ever necessary to discipline a child, and I was a bit surprised by how many people here are in favour of spanking but then I remembered most users are probably American, where attitudes are generally more conservative.

Plus it's the BDSM forum and all.

Agreed.

 

[jadefirefly]

Plus it's the BDSM forum and all.

I am impressed by your ability to draw random conclusions, assume, and demonstrate a marked lack of reading the thread.

Bonus cookies for you. No, really.

 

[BiBunny]

I am impressed by your ability to draw random conclusions, assume, and demonstrate a marked lack of reading the thread.

Bonus cookies for you. No, really.

Psst. It's par for the course.

 

[jadefirefly]

Psst. It's par for the course.

I suppose this is true. And if par = average, I shouldn't be that impressed by mediocrity.

 

[caela]

This just saps all the excitement out of it for me. Like completely. If all i need is pain i can do that to myself.

i want to see the flash of anger in his face when i say or do something over an invisible line neither of us knew was there until i stepped over it. i like to watch him pause before reacting all the while looking at him with eyes that could only be interpreted as "i dare you."

Ahhh...just a different mindset I guess. Part of it is likely that I'm not involved in a relationship at the moment so I have friends that I play with. If I were in a full time relationship the dynamic might be different though I don't actually like to push peoples buttons to the point of they're being mad at me.

Everyone is different.

 

[dexwebster]

May be black and white...

I'm pretty adamantly against spanking kids in basically any circumstance.

I'm also well aware that my views are pretty well warped by my childhood, by and large because my mother is mentally unstable (bipolar, clinically depressed, etc). We were almost never in a position of 'kid does something bad, kid gets spanked' and there were very few moments of physical abuse and none of them pain-related (one of the only incidents I specifically remember was my 7-8 year old sister asking for a glass of milk while my mother was upset, and my mom grabbed her by the neck, took the gallon of milk and poured it over her head). She was much more likely to direct her anger at herself, mostly by destroying her possessions, which was damaging in its own way. But the fear that she would harm us never went away.

I cannot fathom how the reality of being a child who was hit is any better than being a child who only feared being hit.

And I will never, ever contribute to a child living with anything resembling that feeling. Ever.

 

[caela]

I'm pretty adamantly against spanking kids in basically any circumstance.

I'm also well aware that my views are pretty well warped by my childhood, by and large because my mother is mentally unstable (bipolar, clinically depressed, etc). We were almost never in a position of 'kid does something bad, kid gets spanked' and there were very few moments of physical abuse and none of them pain-related (one of the only incidents I specifically remember was my 7-8 year old sister asking for a glass of milk while my mother was upset, and my mom grabbed her by the neck, took the gallon of milk and poured it over her head). She was much more likely to direct her anger at herself, mostly by destroying her possessions, which was damaging in its own way. But the fear that she would harm us never went away.

I cannot fathom how the reality of being a child who was hit is any better than being a child who only feared being hit.

And I will never, ever contribute to a child living with anything resembling that feeling. Ever.

You bring up an interesting point. More than one person has mentioned kids being afraid they are going to be hit.

Growing up I knew that corporal punishment might happen if I did something bad enough (most often it was one quick slap when I was mouthing off far beyond the limits of acceptability) but I was never afraid that I was going to be hit everytime my Mom was upset. My own daughter gets her hands slapped on occasion but she doesn't flinch when I enter a room or even when I raise my voice and tell her "NO!". Hell most often she just grins at me and goes to grab something she knows she is allowed to play with.

I think the flinching comes from a parent that is out of control more than from a parent that uses the occasional spanking or hand slapping as a means of correction.

 

[dexwebster]

My own daughter gets her hands slapped on occasion but she doesn't flinch when I enter a room or even when I raise my voice and tell her "NO!"

I don't know that flinching and parental observation is necessarily the best indicator. Kids are frequently a lot more emotionally facile than they get credit for, and they can hide a lot. I suspect there are a lot of parents who hit their kids in some manner who think their kids are perfectly fine and not at all traumatized by it, and their kids would say otherwise if pressed.

Because I'm not omnipotent, I can't say with absolute 100% certainty where the threshold is between "leaving no ill effects while child knows 'corporal punishment might happen if [they do] something bad enough'", and that child having even the slightest doubt of why they've been hit, or the fear of it happening again when they can't tell it will happen -- was this time bad enough for it? Will they live in fear of doing something wrong because they just never know?

I think the flinching comes from a parent that is out of control more than from a parent that uses the occasional spanking or hand slapping as a means of correction.

I think you're right and those cases are usually more severe than your own, but it's not a line I'm willing to push. Unless I can predict exactly what's going on in their head -- which is impossible -- I think I have no damn business doing it.

 

[lineryder1000]

Spanking

This may be a question which will clutter up the parental debates for centuries to come, yet som common sense needs to be applied here as well as in parenting.

I grew up in the ranch country of West Texas, where a child who did not move or obey his parent fast enough, could become a greasy spot in the middle of a cow pen or a horse stall in the twinkling of an eye. My parents and grandparents were wise enough to understand that you cannot explain to a four year old the difference in mass and inertia statistics between a 45 lb little boy and a 1000 lb horse or a 2500 lb bull. What they could get across to the wee one was ----- If you don't do exactly as your father says, when he says to do it, your bottom is going to sting something awful. ------ The widom of my forbears seemed to understand the mind of a four year old and the dangers of ranch life. As a consequence, I lived long enough to see the day that my father looked down at me and said, "You are too old to spank. If you do something that you know is wrong or that you understand that your mother and I have forbidden you to do, ------- It is going to cost you. That's the way life is, and that's the way your life will be till the day you move out on your own."

Contrary to many psychological opinions, this not only kept me alive in a dangerous country long enough to develop some judgement, but it caused me to adore my parents. That is something that has never left me.

I was spanked as a small child. I'm glad that my folks were strong enough to do that when it meant that I might survive long enough to see them give up that practice in favor of common sense. I had a cousin whose parents refused to lay a hand on their child. As I remember, he was wilful and disobediant -----and died in a terrible, avoidable accident before his tenth birthday.

 

[FurryFury]

You made some great points and you said exactly what I was thinking!

I don't know that flinching and parental observation is necessarily the best indicator. Kids are frequently a lot more emotionally facile than they get credit for, and they can hide a lot. I suspect there are a lot of parents who hit their kids in some manner who think their kids are perfectly fine and not at all traumatized by it, and their kids would say otherwise if pressed.

Because I'm not omnipotent, I can't say with absolute 100% certainty where the threshold is between "leaving no ill effects while child knows 'corporal punishment might happen if [they do] something bad enough'", and that child having even the slightest doubt of why they've been hit, or the fear of it happening again when they can't tell it will happen -- was this time bad enough for it? Will they live in fear of doing something wrong because they just never know?



I think you're right and those cases are usually more severe than your own, but it's not a line I'm willing to push. Unless I can predict exactly what's going on in their head -- which is impossible -- I think I have no damn business doing it.