Do you believe spanking is an appropriate discipline for a child?

[intothewoods]

I have no doubt that some parents are capable of spanking in an appropriately dispassionate way. I would be genuinely curious to know what percentage of parents who spank have that capability and self-discipline.

 

[FurryFury]

I'm not even sure it's appropriate to be dispassionate while hitting a kid.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm not even sure it's appropriate to be dispassionate while hitting a kid.

First of all, let me say that I'm not at all comfortable with using physical force as discipline. I have known only a few people who spank, and two out of three would just lose their temper and whack their kid on the bottom. I thought it was bullshit and I politely and diplomatically tried to get that point across (but I digress).

I know one other person who has at times smacked her kids' hands, not at all hard. More like a flick to get their attention with a stern no. She's methodical about it, like she is with all discipline, so it's not connected to losing her temper or some sort of irrational outburst (i.e., not more about the parent than what the kid needs). She's also very strict overall. Anyway, she is what I would call dispassionate in administering discipline and essentially the only person I know who does this who I also respect as a parent. Fwiw, she's very loving as well. By dispassionate, I just mean that she's doling it out based on what she thinks is appropriate for the child, not based on her emotional reaction to the child's behavior.

 

[Netzach]

I have no doubt that some parents are capable of spanking in an appropriately dispassionate way. I would be genuinely curious to know what percentage of parents who spank have that capability and self-discipline.

I've never seen it in action. I believe it exists or can exist, but I literally have no experience with adults hitting children out of anything but exasperation and anger and the end of the fuse. I've never seen it in action, and I've never experienced it.

Frankly this IS why "spank me I've been bad" is a completely nonsensical scene for me. I have no point of reference. It's more like "you're stressed, wanna drag me around by the hair?" - THAT makes sense in my head, oddly enough.

My thoughts also extend to the idea that there are some meltdowns that are simply nuclear in nature. I don't think "wow she should slug him" when I see them, because I doubt that that would be much more effective than the weak negotiations I see going on.

The only thing I think "she should do" is pick him up and haul his ass out of there.

 

[FurryFury]

Interesting post.

First of all, let me say that I'm not at all comfortable with using physical force as discipline. I have known only a few people who spank, and two out of three would just lose their temper and whack their kid on the bottom. I thought it was bullshit and I politely and diplomatically tried to get that point across (but I digress).

I know one other person who has at times smacked her kids' hands, not at all hard. More like a flick to get their attention with a stern no. She's methodical about it, like she is with all discipline, so it's not connected to losing her temper or some sort of irrational outburst (i.e., not more about the parent than what the kid needs). She's also very strict overall. Anyway, she is what I would call dispassionate in administering discipline and essentially the only person I know who does this who I also respect as a parent. Fwiw, she's very loving as well. By dispassionate, I just mean that she's doling it out based on what she thinks is appropriate for the child, not based on her emotional reaction to the child's behavior.

 

[satindesire]

I think what we've all very convienently forgetting is that in the adult world, physical force is simply not necessary in 99% of any case that might call for it, because adults have this nifty little brain development that comes with maturity called REASONING.

A child is just that, a CHILD. They have almost no sense of self-awareness, no sense of emotional logic and reasoning, they are very simplistic human beings who work in very simple ways. Their communication skills are rudimentary at best, and that goes for problem solving and verbal communication.

If I'm upset with my husband because he's done something wrong, I can sit him down and talk to him about it. He can think about what I'm saying and talk with me back. A child (under a certain age) is completely incapable of doing this.

Some children do not respond to the sugary sweet tactics of lengthy explanations from mommy and daddy why running out into a busy street is bad. They don't understand you, or they'll tune you out. Some children can only respond to cause and effect...run out in the street=physical pain from spanking.

I apologize that some of you have been products of abuse from parents or adults who could not control themselves, but that does not mean ALL parents are like this. We here on the BDSM forum often rail against people trying to tar us all with the same brush, yet many people that once chafed under that yolk are doing the very same thing to parents who spank their children.

If I find out that my daughter only responds to spanking, then I will spank her. If that makes me a horrible parent who deserves jail time, then you can call the cops on me now and get it over with.

 

[FurryFury]

I agree with you. Like you I've never seen or experienced that either.

I can't get into the mind frame that I should be spanked because I've been "bad" either. Although, strangely enough I do think spankings help with my guilt. My guilt is quite often over things I probably should NOT be feeling guilty about but do and strongly so. Therefore when my husband says something like "Have you been bad? Do you need a spanking." I typically say "No I haven't and yes I do."

I've never seen it in action. I believe it exists or can exist, but I literally have no experience with adults hitting children out of anything but exasperation and anger and the end of the fuse. I've never seen it in action, and I've never experienced it.

Frankly this IS why "spank me I've been bad" is a completely nonsensical scene for me. I have no point of reference. It's more like "you're stressed, wanna drag me around by the hair?" - THAT makes sense in my head, oddly enough.

My thoughts also extend to the idea that there are some meltdowns that are simply nuclear in nature. I don't think "wow she should slug him" when I see them, because I doubt that that would be much more effective than the weak negotiations I see going on.

The only thing I think "she should do" is pick him up and haul his ass out of there.

 

[jadefirefly]

The thing that I think is getting lost here is this:

No discipline, from time-outs to scoldings to chores to spanking, should be meted out while a parent is angry.

An angry parent is not disciplining out of a need or desire to discipline; they are doing so out of their own anger.

 

[FurryFury]

I don't believe anyone has said anything remotely resembling that they think you (or anyone else) should go to jail if you spank your kids.

I would point out that there are more options than the two you mentioned, sugary sweet explanations and spanking. Personally I can't stomach either of those options.

I think what we've all very convienently forgetting is that in the adult world, physical force is simply not necessary in 99% of any case that might call for it, because adults have this nifty little brain development that comes with maturity called REASONING.

A child is just that, a CHILD. They have almost no sense of self-awareness, no sense of emotional logic and reasoning, they are very simplistic human beings who work in very simple ways. Their communication skills are rudimentary at best, and that goes for problem solving and verbal communication.

If I'm upset with my husband because he's done something wrong, I can sit him down and talk to him about it. He can think about what I'm saying and talk with me back. A child (under a certain age) is completely incapable of doing this.

Some children do not respond to the sugary sweet tactics of lengthy explanations from mommy and daddy why running out into a busy street is bad. They don't understand you, or they'll tune you out. Some children can only respond to cause and effect...run out in the street=physical pain from spanking.

I apologize that some of you have been products of abuse from parents or adults who could not control themselves, but that does not mean ALL parents are like this. We here on the BDSM forum often rail against people trying to tar us all with the same brush, yet many people that once chafed under that yolk are doing the very same thing to parents who spank their children.

If I find out that my daughter only responds to spanking, then I will spank her. If that makes me a horrible parent who deserves jail time, then you can call the cops on me now and get it over with.

 

[satindesire]

I don't believe anyone has said anything remotely resembling that they think you (or anyone else) should go to jail if you spank your kids.

It was a generalized statement. It was not directed at anyone. I was not accusing anyone of anything.

I would point out that there are more options than the two you mentioned, sugary sweet explanations and spanking. Personally I can't stomach either of those options.

Yes, there are more options. I just find it a little odd that people have the tendency, if they were abused as children, to think that ANY form of spanking is this horrific abuse that will damage the child FOREVER.

I've stated this once and I'll state it again. I was spanked as a child, and I didn't find it abusive at all. In my case, it was necessary and a learning tool for me to not break those rules again. My parents were awesome parents, and still are. I was not DAMAGED in any way, shape or form, there was no permanent lasting emotional harm done to me.

 

[FurryFury]

You think spanking is the most effective thing for your child. You think it did you no harm. That's great. Down the road I hope you don't find out any differently.

But if it COULD lead to damaging the child forever and you have other tools you can use why take the chance? Why not err on the side of caution? That's just my thinking.

It was a generalized statement. It was not directed at anyone. I was not accusing anyone of anything.



Yes, there are more options. I just find it a little odd that people have the tendency, if they were abused as children, to think that ANY form of spanking is this horrific abuse that will damage the child FOREVER.

I've stated this once and I'll state it again. I was spanked as a child, and I didn't find it abusive at all. In my case, it was necessary and a learning tool for me to not break those rules again. My parents were awesome parents, and still are. I was not DAMAGED in any way, shape or form, there was no permanent lasting emotional harm done to me.

 

[FurryFury]

In an idealized world maybe, but then would parents be more like robots than human beings? You know what I mean?

The thing that I think is getting lost here is this:

No discipline, from time-outs to scoldings to chores to spanking, should be meted out while a parent is angry.

An angry parent is not disciplining out of a need or desire to discipline; they are doing so out of their own anger.

 

[satindesire]

You think spanking is the most effective thing for your child. You think it did you no harm. That's great. Down the road I hope you don't find out any differently.

*laughs* After nearly 20 years after the last time I was spanked, don't you think I'd know by now if I hated my parents for spanking me?

But if it COULD lead to damaging the child forever and you have other tools you can use why take the chance? Why not err on the side of caution? That's just my thinking.

Yeah, and that's exactly why I said only SOME children can be spanked.

In an idealized world maybe, but then would parents be more like robots than human beings? You know what I mean?

Look, any punishment meted out should be done not out of anger, but in a clear headed way. That's not being an emotionless robot, that's being a responsible parent.

 

[radepor]

Yes, depending on intent

If it's done out of a motive of sadism, frustration etc it's wrong.

If it's done out of love, I think it CAN be right.

Personal example: As a 10 or 11 year-old, I lived in a small town and I stole one, single golf ball from a local drug store - I'm old by the way.

My father worked in the construction industry and the economy was very bad at the time; so, he was away from home for months at a time. I adored him, when he was home, and he adored me.

Somehow, he found out about my larceny. The one and only time he ever struck me was because of this incident. He removed his belt and hit me two or three times somewhere around the waist/butt.

It broke my heart; and I could see it was breaking his heart as well.

I never stole anything again. I don't think I was abused. I think it was a lesson well learned.

Interesting question on a bdsm forum, Poll to cum.

 

[FurryFury]

You probably would. Hopefully you child will feel the same way down the road.

I must not be a responsible parent then because I don't believe that any parent has escaped parenting without being angry and providing punishment, I know I haven't.

*laughs* After nearly 20 years after the last time I was spanked, don't you think I'd know by now if I hated my parents for spanking me?



Yeah, and that's exactly why I said only SOME children can be spanked.



Look, any punishment meted out should be done not out of anger, but in a clear headed way. That's not being an emotionless robot, that's being a responsible parent.

 

[FurryFury]

Interesting.

Do you think if your father had made you go and confess to the store owner that might have been a lesson well learned without being hit?

I agree sadism shouldn't be the motive. Of course I and my husband grew in in families where it was a very large part of the motive.

If it's done out of a motive of sadism, frustration etc it's wrong.

If it's done out of love, I think it CAN be right.

Personal example: As a 10 or 11 year-old, I lived in a small town and I stole one, single golf ball from a local drug store - I'm old by the way.

My father worked in the construction industry and the economy was very bad at the time; so, he was away from home for months at a time. I adored him, when he was home, and he adored me.

Somehow, he found out about my larceny. The one and only time he ever struck me was because of this incident. He removed his belt and hit me two or three times somewhere around the waist/butt.

It broke my heart; and I could see it was breaking his heart as well.

I never stole anything again. I don't think I was abused. I think it was a lesson well learned.

 

[radepor]

No, I don't

No. He did make me go confess, and pay, the druggist for the stolen object.

I didn't even feel the belt; but I can still feel the tears (50 years later). Tears that I had done something so wrong that my father felt it necessary to discipline me in a way he'd never done before - and never did afterward.

Interesting.

Do you think if your father had made you go and confess to the store owner that might have been a lesson well learned without being hit?

I agree sadism shouldn't be the motive. Of course I and my husband grew in in families where it was a very large part of the motive.

 

[intothewoods]

I think what we've all very convienently forgetting is that in the adult world, physical force is simply not necessary in 99% of any case that might call for it, because adults have this nifty little brain development that comes with maturity called REASONING.

A child is just that, a CHILD. They have almost no sense of self-awareness, no sense of emotional logic and reasoning, they are very simplistic human beings who work in very simple ways. Their communication skills are rudimentary at best, and that goes for problem solving and verbal communication.

If I'm upset with my husband because he's done something wrong, I can sit him down and talk to him about it. He can think about what I'm saying and talk with me back. A child (under a certain age) is completely incapable of doing this.

Some children do not respond to the sugary sweet tactics of lengthy explanations from mommy and daddy why running out into a busy street is bad. They don't understand you, or they'll tune you out. Some children can only respond to cause and effect...run out in the street=physical pain from spanking.

I apologize that some of you have been products of abuse from parents or adults who could not control themselves, but that does not mean ALL parents are like this. We here on the BDSM forum often rail against people trying to tar us all with the same brush, yet many people that once chafed under that yolk are doing the very same thing to parents who spank their children.

If I find out that my daughter only responds to spanking, then I will spank her. If that makes me a horrible parent who deserves jail time, then you can call the cops on me now and get it over with.

Here's the thing. I know it sounds obvious, but brain development in children doesn't go from zero to fully formed adult overnight. They do learn to communicate and reason in very important ways from the beginning, even if they can't articulate it. Seeing the manifestations of maturity and brain development in my kid has been so rewarding. Kids' capacity to learn and communicate is absolutely amazing. An excellent, excellent science-based book is The Emotional Life of a Toddler. There's a lot going on in those little brains!

Having said that, I'm not recommending lengthy explanations to very young children. An infant isn't going to understand no. They're not going to understand spanking either. But toddlers do learn no. And danger. Keep it short and simple, and they'll get it. Even if they don't have the impulse control from the beginning, they do understand it. And that is an important part of the process - learning impulse control even when it's not fully developed. For the most part, you need to keep a toddler's environment safe. They can't be expected to resist 800 things in front of them. They can learn to resist one or two things. And then it improves. A three year old can understand a heck of a lot more than a 15 month old, and has much better impulse control. But I can't emphasize enough how important the process is, regardless of how challenging it is to parents and caregivers. Kids need to learn from logical consequences (and that doesn't mean punishment of any kind).

I'll say it again. I have never spanked, and my kid has never run into the street. First of all, we always hold hands walking across the street, so that has set the stage. To the extent I need to lay down the law about something, I say it and have always said it clearly and plainly. I'm not a snivveling, awww honey, pwease don't do this, mom. I'm not afraid to be strict.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I'll say it again. I have never spanked, and my kid has never run into the street. First of all, we always hold hands walking across the street, so that has set the stage. To the extent I need to lay down the law about something, I say it and have always said it clearly and plainly. I'm not a snivveling, awww honey, pwease don't do this, mom. I'm not afraid to be strict.

Things change dramatically when you have 3 or 4 of them all going in different directions. There honestly just isn't always time to have a little chat with each one of them. Sometimes there is and sometimes there isn't.

Quantity seriously matters.

Right now i have a 2 and a 3 year old who are only 14 months apart and a 6 year old who is often just not on this planet at all not that the 8 year old is either. We're sort of like a house full of absent minded professors and artists except the miniature versions have ridiculous amounts of energy.

We don't spank often but it does happen on occasion. There are those days when we have simply had enough of all the shenanigans. Don't even get me started on the politics and the tattling and the we were rough housing but now i'm hurt so now i really wasn't rough housing and i never said it was okay for her\him to do that. Yeah... right.

Sometimes they just won't go to bed until they've had their beatings.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I'll say it again. I have never spanked, and my kid has never run into the street. First of all, we always hold hands walking across the street, so that has set the stage. To the extent I need to lay down the law about something, I say it and have always said it clearly and plainly. I'm not a snivveling, awww honey, pwease don't do this, mom. I'm not afraid to be strict.

We did this with the first 2 and it worked great. The third who is 3 has got to be the most willful child i have ever encountered (i wonder where she gets it from ). She HATES holding hands and it is a CONSTANT battle. Every freaking time we go anywhere we have to have the holding hands talk, every time. It really gets old. As soon as we finally get into the store however she is a wonderful little shopping partner and the only one i take regularly on the weekly costco run.

With that one we mostly just try to avoid the battle in the first place. If there is a way to get it done where she feels like she is making the decision that is the way we play it because in a battle of wills she is a very tough opponent and as the parents we can't set the precedent of letting her win. That said she has only been spanked a couple of times mostly because its just not that effective with her. The 6 year old responds very well to spanking and is more sensitive to punishments that are psychological in nature. Something about spanking i think gives her a sense of finality where time out sometimes leaves it unfinished feeling and she'll feel guilty. She still hasn't gotten spanked in ages, i can't even remember the last time.

i basically feel like every child is different and you do what is best for each of them to the best of your ability. No one is going to do it perfectly and no childhood will be perfect and that's just life. Both of my girls have been threatened with spankings by their father, usually at the dinner table, looked him right in the eye and done again whatever it was they were told to stop doing.

 

[intothewoods]

We did this with the first 2 and it worked great. The third who is 3 has got to be the most willful child i have ever encountered (i wonder where she gets it from ). She HATES holding hands and it is a CONSTANT battle. Every freaking time we go anywhere we have to have the holding hands talk, every time. It really gets old. As soon as we finally get into the store however she is a wonderful little shopping partner and the only one i take regularly on the weekly costco run.

Mine is somewhat like this, or at least power struggles have been an issue, although that came up post-age 3. I think you're right to avoid the battle in the first place though. Independent types can take a lot of responsibility. So that's the good thing. Heap it on! They love it!

 

[ataxia.girl]

On another note some kids are just really physical and some are more cerebral. i have 2 of each. Two of them need lots and lots of physical affection and rough housing\wrestling\tickling while the other two need to talk more. We include all of them in decision making but the 6 year old just isn't as interested, time will tell on the 2 year old. In fact my 6 year old daughter will often say "mom, how about you just decide" because she just doesn't want to make the decision or care about whatever it is i'm asking her to decide. The other two would NEVER pass up an opportunity to make a decision for themselves.

i have never told my 6 year old i am disappointed in her because it is easy for me to see what kind of effect that would have on her. She would be absolutely crushed. A spanking is actually less emotionally damaging to her and in fact she has even asked for one on occasion when she has gotten in trouble. When its over its over and she generally hops off to go play or whatever. After a lecture she will sometimes bring it up over and over for days because it is not resolved for her.

These days we have a monetary system for rewards and punishments. Everyone has a jar on the mantle with their name on it that they have decorated. Next to that are two big jars full of those pebbles florists use of 2 different sizes. One size is a dollar and the other size is a quarter. At the beginning of each week they get their age in large stones to put in their jars. If they don't do their chores or get nasty they may have some taken away. They can earn extra for helping out without being asked or reminded. We try not to talk about it as if they are really money but more like points however when they want to buy something they can exchange their pebbles for money. We will only exchange them in advance of a trip to the store to get whatever it is they want and will never do the buy it now and i'll give you my pebbles when we get home thing to encourage them to save up and not waste their money buying things on impulse.

We had been giving them an allowance in actual dollars for awhile but they couldn't keep track of it so it was like throwing money away which wasn't teaching them anything and was aggravating for us. i don't mind giving them extra rocks during the week because for the most part the stuff they buy is stuff we probably would have purchased anyway but this way they get to learn about saving and spending and the "money" is kept in a central location where it doesn't get lost under the bed not to mention i'm not exactly concerned about a few misplaced floral pebbles.

Anyway they love it and it has totally worked. They will pretty much do anything to get some extra rocks especially now that the two older ones have actually managed to save up about $50 and buy something with theirs. They saw the effect on their jar when all the money was exchanged for cash and they brought a toy back but had to start over saving up for something else.

The cutest thing is the two year old is totally into having his jar at Sunday dinner and picking out two colored rocks to put in it. Does he know what it is about? No, probably not yet but he knows one of those jars is his and more rocks is better than less rocks. He's really into being one of the kids like everyone else.

 

[ownedsubgal]

i have never told my 6 year old i am disappointed in her because it is easy for me to see what kind of effect that would have on her. She would be absolutely crushed. A spanking is actually less emotionally damaging to her and in fact she has even asked for one on occasion when she has gotten in trouble. When its over its over and she generally hops off to go play or whatever. After a lecture she will sometimes bring it up over and over for days because it is not resolved for her.

freaky, this sounds exactly like me, both as a kid and right now. i need the finality that a physical beating provides. a lecture alone, and that look of disappointment in his eyes...i will suffer endlessly over that, beat myself up over it and drag the whole household down with my gloomy demeanor. but if it's all capped off with a beating, then it's like, yes, i can breathe again, it's really over, and life can go on as normal.


btw your rocks/allowance system sounds quite awesome.

 

[ataxia.girl]

btw your rocks/allowance system sounds quite awesome.

Yeah i need to post about it somewhere parents hang on the net because it totally works and everyone is happy. It just kinda came to me one day and it is amazing the effect it has had on the peacefulness of our home. We knew we needed to start doing allowance and chores for the bigger kids but giving them actual money just wasn't working. They never knew where it was or how much they had and keeping it for them didn't have the same effect. Now its a visible colorful reminder right in the kitchen\dining area where they are all the time anyway. i often send them on cup hunts (our house is forever littered with sippy and big kid cups) and they get a small pebble for each one they bring back.

Anymore all we have to do is threaten to take a rock away and they get their stuff done. We're pretty selective on what we threaten though because we don't want everything to be about the rocks but for picking up after themselves and doing chores it is perfect. So far we haven't really used them for behavior. You're expected to be nice to your siblings without expecting to get paid or lose rocks for it.

 

[ataxia.girl]

freaky, this sounds exactly like me, both as a kid and right now. i need the finality that a physical beating provides. a lecture alone, and that look of disappointment in his eyes...i will suffer endlessly over that, beat myself up over it and drag the whole household down with my gloomy demeanor. but if it's all capped off with a beating, then it's like, yes, i can breathe again, it's really over, and life can go on as normal.

i'm like this with Daddy actually. It doesn't even have to be a hard spanking. The intensity doesn't really matter just that it happens and then its over. He does it right at the moment of the offense as well so it is more like a correction than a punishment. If we were together full time they would likely be more serious but since we are only together 4 nights a month he tends to keep it pretty light. He doesn't have the same expectations of me he would of a full time slave.