Do You Care If Your Elected Officials Cheat on Their Wives?

[Recidiva]

This is essentially my take as well. I just can't see having an affair as proof positive that a person is unethical. It's a failure of the marriage, to be sure. And yes, acting outside the agreement of the marriage is not morally right. But I just don't buy the line that a man or woman who cheats on his marriage is, by definition, unethical or not to be trusted at his job.

Do we ever, ever raise the he-can't-possibly-do-his-job issue when a quarterback gets sacked on a Friday night? Of course not. On Sunday we expect him to use good judgement under pressure. And usually they do. Why the double standard for politicians?

I don't care about sports?

And I think it could be done better, that's why.

 

[JMohegan]

This is essentially my take as well. I just can't see having an affair as proof positive that a person is unethical. It's a failure of the marriage, to be sure. And yes, acting outside the agreement of the marriage is not morally right. But I just don't buy the line that a man or woman who cheats on his marriage is, by definition, unethical or not to be trusted at his job.

Do we ever, ever raise the he-can't-possibly-do-his-job issue when a quarterback gets sacked on a Friday night? Of course not. On Sunday we expect him to use good judgement under pressure. And usually they do. Why the double standard for politicians?

Excuse me? Fuckin' around on the side is now the equivalent of getting sacked?

In the first place, the #1 reason the QB gets sacked is the fact that the OL fucked up, or was overpowered. All part of normal athletic competition. Not a betrayal, not a breakdown in commitment, faith, or trust. Just a ball game. That's it.

In the second place, look - I get that you, and everyone else who has cheated on a spouse feels defensive on this subject. I have never been part of an unhappy marriage, and can't know what desperation or lapses of character I'd be driven to. I'm willing to acknowledge that the failure of a marriage is joint responsibility in most cases, and there are circumstances so untenable that you'd be driven to extremes, but Jesus Christ. I'm drawing the line at this attempt to equate whatever the fuck you're doing with normal, everyday, ethical interaction between consenting human beings. Keroin's analogy is extremely offensive, and yours is too.

 

[Recidiva]

I'd like anyone who thinks cheating is no big deal or defensible to tell me why if it's such as small thing and doesn't matter, why people can't just NOT DO IT if it's so trivial and irrelevant.

I have been in unhappy marriages and bad relationships and I've done the honest and fair thing.

I resent being told that I could have just lied and betrayed someone I claimed to love and it wouldn't have mattered.

It matters to me, therefore I can base my opinions on it happening. Honesty and integrity are part and parcel of all political issues. If a person proves themselves incapable of comprehending the importance of such things and the cost of the loss of them to other people who get hurt in the process, I don't think I need to dismiss that and profess faith in their judgment.

Selfishness and cruelty and an inability to stick to promises that are no longer convenient aren't things I prize in a public servant.

 

[midwestyankee]

Excuse me? Fuckin' around on the side is now the equivalent of getting sacked?

In the first place, the #1 reason the QB gets sacked is the fact that the OL fucked up, or was overpowered. All part of normal athletic competition. Not a betrayal, not a breakdown in commitment, faith, or trust. Just a ball game. That's it.

In the second place, look - I get that you, and everyone else who has cheated on a spouse feels defensive on this subject. I have never been part of an unhappy marriage, and can't know what desperation or lapses of character I'd be driven to. I'm willing to acknowledge that the failure of a marriage is joint responsibility in most cases, and there are circumstances so untenable that you'd be driven to extremes, but Jesus Christ. I'm drawing the line at this attempt to equate whatever the fuck you're doing with normal, everyday, ethical interaction between consenting human beings. Keroin's analogy is extremely offensive, and yours is too.

Sorry for the weak use of figurative language. When I spoke of the quarterback getting "sacked on Friday night" and then playing on Sunday, I thought it would be clear that I was talking about a pro player who got into the wrong bed on Friday. I guess I was wrong.

Clearly, since I'm a flawed human being, my presence here is unwanted.

Goodbye to the rest of you unflawed types.

 

[Keroin]

Excuse me? Fuckin' around on the side is now the equivalent of getting sacked?

In the first place, the #1 reason the QB gets sacked is the fact that the OL fucked up, or was overpowered. All part of normal athletic competition. Not a betrayal, not a breakdown in commitment, faith, or trust. Just a ball game. That's it.

In the second place, look - I get that you, and everyone else who has cheated on a spouse feels defensive on this subject. I have never been part of an unhappy marriage, and can't know what desperation or lapses of character I'd be driven to. I'm willing to acknowledge that the failure of a marriage is joint responsibility in most cases, and there are circumstances so untenable that you'd be driven to extremes, but Jesus Christ. I'm drawing the line at this attempt to equate whatever the fuck you're doing with normal, everyday, ethical interaction between consenting human beings. Keroin's analogy is extremely offensive, and yours is too.

Extremely offensive how?

I'm trying to point out that what one group of people deems immoral and reprehensible another group of people can see as acceptable or, at the very least, understandable.

 

[Recidiva]

Extremely offensive how?

I'm trying to point out that what one group of people deems immoral and reprehensible another group of people can see as acceptable or, at the very least, understandable.

Understandable is different from excusable, praiseworthy and deserving of responsibility.

 

[JMohegan]

Sorry for the weak use of figurative language. When I spoke of the quarterback getting "sacked on Friday night" and then playing on Sunday, I thought it would be clear that I was talking about a pro player who got into the wrong bed on Friday. I guess I was wrong.

Clearly, since I'm a flawed human being, my presence here is unwanted.

Goodbye to the rest of you unflawed types.

Oh chirst, MWY, put away the fucking violin.

I took your statement literally, missing the pun. I apologize for doing so; that was my fault, not yours.

 

[intothewoods]

At the national level, they'd never get elected if they were Muslim or gay or agnostic.

There's a lot that turns one's stomach, when dealing with the general electorate.

Perhaps for this reason, I'm having a hard time mustering outrage on behalf of the politician caught cheating. After all, the consequences are entirely preventable.

I'd like anyone who thinks cheating is no big deal or defensible to tell me why if it's such as small thing and doesn't matter, why people can't just NOT DO IT if it's so trivial and irrelevant.

I have been in unhappy marriages and bad relationships and I've done the honest and fair thing.

I resent being told that I could have just lied and betrayed someone I claimed to love and it wouldn't have mattered.

It matters to me, therefore I can base my opinions on it happening. Honesty and integrity are part and parcel of all political issues. If a person proves themselves incapable of comprehending the importance of such things and the cost of the loss of them to other people who get hurt in the process, I don't think I need to dismiss that and profess faith in their judgment.

Selfishness and cruelty and an unwillingness to stick to unpleasant promises aren't things I prize in a public servant.

I'm not arguing that anyone should be outraged on behalf of the pols or that cheating is a small thing and doesn't matter. I just don't liken cheating to say Watergate or lying to Americans about Vietnam. And I don't think the energy we spend ripping the cheater a new one in the press and also, more importantly, obsessing and salivating over these details is healthy or worthwhile.

 

[intothewoods]

Sorry for the weak use of figurative language. When I spoke of the quarterback getting "sacked on Friday night" and then playing on Sunday, I thought it would be clear that I was talking about a pro player who got into the wrong bed on Friday. I guess I was wrong.

Clearly, since I'm a flawed human being, my presence here is unwanted.

Goodbye to the rest of you unflawed types.

Oh chirst, MWY, put away the fucking violin.

I took your statement literally, missing the pun. I apologize for doing so; that was my fault, not yours.

I was also confused and thought maybe you meant drunk (smashed? sloshed?).

 

[Recidiva]

I'm not arguing that anyone should be outraged on behalf of the pols or that cheating is a small thing and doesn't matter. I just don't liken cheating to say Watergate or lying to Americans about Vietnam. And I don't think the energy we spend ripping the cheater a new one in the press and also, more importantly, obsessing and salivating over these details is healthy or worthwhile.

I'm not obsessing or salivating. I don't care about the media coverage. This is my opinion regarding what I consider to be important in someone's character and why.

If the question was "what do you think about media coverage of elected officials' cheating on their spouses" I wouldn't have responded.

 

[Keroin]

I'd like anyone who thinks cheating is no big deal or defensible to tell me why if it's such as small thing and doesn't matter, why people can't just NOT DO IT if it's so trivial and irrelevant.

I have been in unhappy marriages and bad relationships and I've done the honest and fair thing.

I resent being told that I could have just lied and betrayed someone I claimed to love and it wouldn't have mattered.

It matters to me, therefore I can base my opinions on it happening. Honesty and integrity are part and parcel of all political issues. If a person proves themselves incapable of comprehending the importance of such things and the cost of the loss of them to other people who get hurt in the process, I don't think I need to dismiss that and profess faith in their judgment.

Selfishness and cruelty and an inability to stick to promises that are no longer convenient aren't things I prize in a public servant.

Part in bold: who has said that?

I have not suggested that infidelity is small or that it doesn't matter.

 

[ZRT]

So, FDR, Kennedy, Jefferson. All crap leadership.

What is Grover Cleveland greatness material? Wilson?

Jefferson was a great visionary and a so-so president who ended up backtracking on a lot of his idealism while in office. Kennedy was basically worthless but caught a bullet and a place on the top ten list thanks to the martyr effect.

FDR was a mixed bag but brought us through the war and put the right general in charge of the overall effort. Like I said, it's not an automatic disqualifier.

As for the Cleveland and Wilson, faithfully monogamy doesn't in any way indicate that somebody is worthy of a leadership position, and I never said it did. Hell, most American presidents have been just this side of worthless.

I do note that you left Teddy Roosevelt off your list, though. Or Washington, for that matter.

The fact is, most marriages have included a "whatever works" definition of monogamy. Americans can't fucking abide that news flash.

Open arrangements are no problem, and even 'certain understandings'.

And the fact still remains I don't care about peeking under the bed of anyone unless they happen to have a thing for peeking under mine.

Leadership means character it doesn't mean spotless unimpeachable I would marry him MYSELF character. It means character I can stomach in situations no one emerges from without some shit on him. If he's banging a sheep I don't care.

I don't care about other people's beds when they aren't empowered with control over my life. When they do have that power and compromise their ability to act effectively because they can't keep in their pants, I care very much.

I've met enough people I'd trust with my house, car keys, and health, who are cheating on a spouse that I really don't see this as a moral failing so much as a state of humanity when you build your boxes too small for yourself. It's like a tragedy of mis-connection and life's shit and it can happen to a lot of very loving and well intentioned people and guess what, *wives have extracurriculars too.* By the time dick hits pussy the damage is well done AND, what's more, you have no idea what's going on at home anyway. No idea in the world unless you live there. No idea of what kind of unspokens exist, what kind of boat can or can't be rocked. I'm not talking about wife blame, but come on. Happy fulfilled people don't just suddenly go "huh, new pussy." They just do not. They don't even notice it often.

I always notice the new pussy around me, regardless of my mood. It's just whether I act on it or not, depending on my circumstances.

It's not like, woo, let's give the man a prize, but go ahead, pick up your stone first. I'll pass.

God forbid I be judgmental of those seeking leadership positions.

I don't expect saints. Frankly, visionaries scare the hell out of me.

I do expect a certain amount of character. And I'm not holding them to any standard higher than I hold myself, in any event.

There are people curing cancer at this moment who are also banging hookers. That's all.

Great for them?

A: They're not sitting there with their finger on the nuclear button.

B: I've got no objection to banging hookers.

C: They're less likely to be compromised by their libido than a politician with access to the levers of power and reams of sensitive material.

Finally, this comes back to that notion that I really despise, that we are all animals unable to control our gonads. That's always been an excuse of weakness.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm not obsessing or salivating. I don't care about the media coverage. This is my opinion regarding what I consider to be important in someone's character and why.

If the question was "what do you think about media coverage of elected officials' cheating on their spouses" I wouldn't have responded.

You're perfectly entitled to it, and again, I didn't say it was unimportant to an evaluation of character.

Perhaps all of the big cheaters on this board just don't want to be categorized as unethical, bad people, but I personally am thinking more of the marriages around me in which there has been infidelity and see very complex situations. I have a hard time viewing the people I see trying to keep their marriages together as purely good or bad.

 

[Keroin]

Understandable is different from excusable, praiseworthy and deserving of responsibility.

So, which jobs should not be allowed to be performed by people who have cheated on a spouse? We also need to trust doctors, pilots and a number of other professions.

I'm not being defensive, I'm just curious where we draw the line.

 

[Recidiva]

Part in bold: who has said that?

I have not suggested that infidelity is small or that it doesn't matter.

But you'd vote someone into office who does it without hesitation, and Nezatch wants me to somehow say that proven adulterers are somehow bad leaders.

I'd prefer to know ahead of time about his adultery so I could vote against him and I don't care how great a friend he is, I'd rather make up my own mind. My own mind says "No" to that character flaw. Fuck complicated. Life is complicated. Politics are complicated. It's not getting easier in office. Pay up in personal sacrifice or find another solution. Be honest and realistic, or pay the fucking piper since you signed up voluntarily for the song and there's a simple legal mechanic - divorce - to fix that complication.

And wouldn't the leaders mentioned by Nezatch have been BETTER if they'd shown the integrity required in their family lives to set an example other than "Man, American Presidents were horndogs."

 

[JMohegan]

I'm not arguing that anyone should be outraged on behalf of the pols or that cheating is a small thing and doesn't matter. I just don't liken cheating to say Watergate or lying to Americans about Vietnam. And I don't think the energy we spend ripping the cheater a new one in the press and also, more importantly, obsessing and salivating over these details is healthy or worthwhile.

"We" are the same people soaking up obsessive coverage in the wake of Michael Jackson's death, or the latest news on some starlet's drinking spree.

There's an obsession over celebrities in this country, that I can not relate to and don't understand. There's also a fierce gotcha drive in the press corps and blogging universe, and a world of technology in which the slightest utterance can be preserved and replayed on Youtube millions of times. The combined effect of all this is an environment so perilous and absent of privacy for politicians, that I honestly don't know how anyone is motivated to run.

 

[intothewoods]

What about Martin Luther King? Wasn't he a notorious cheater? Did that detract from his accomplishments?

 

[Keroin]

Perhaps all of the big cheaters on this board just don't want to be categorized as unethical, bad people, but I personally am thinking more of the marriages around me in which there has been infidelity and see very complex situations. I have a hard time viewing the people I see trying to keep their marriages together as purely good or bad.

This.

 

[Recidiva]

You're perfectly entitled to it, and again, I didn't say it was unimportant to an evaluation of character.

Perhaps all of the big cheaters on this board just don't want to be categorized as unethical, bad people, but I personally am thinking more of the marriages around me in which there has been infidelity and see very complex situations. I have a hard time viewing the people I see trying to keep their marriages together as purely good or bad.

Again, fuck complex. Life is complex. Get a helmet and go back to rudimentary relationship training and learning before your ego catapults you into areas where your ego and integrity is put to harder tests daily - politics.

They're not good or bad, they just have atrocious people skills and understandings of human relationships and I don't want someone like that at any helm.

All I need to know is that they need work. Lots of work. And I want them learning before they get the job, not ON the job.

 

[intothewoods]

"We" are the same people soaking up obsessive coverage in the wake of Michael Jackson's death, or the latest news on some starlet's drinking spree.

There's an obsession over celebrities in this country, that I can not relate to and don't understand. There's also a fierce gotcha drive in the press corps and blogging universe, and a world of technology in which the slightest utterance can be preserved and replayed on Youtube millions of times. The combined effect of all this is an environment so perilous and absent of privacy for politicians, that I honestly don't know how anyone is motivated to run.

Exactly, can we stop talking about the future of Michael Jackson's children and care about our own?

 

[Recidiva]

What about Martin Luther King? Wasn't he a notorious cheater? Did that detract from his accomplishments?

YES. Actually, it did.

If you can talk the talk but can't walk the walk, and I don't mean "Love your neighbor" it makes people look like whopping hypocrites who talk a good game. Even a VERY good game, but can't practice it themselves.

Does it make a difference if someone professing a miracle diet sneaks out in the middle of the night for twinkies and beer? YES.

 

[Recidiva]

So, which jobs should not be allowed to be performed by people who have cheated on a spouse? We also need to trust doctors, pilots and a number of other professions.

I'm not being defensive, I'm just curious where we draw the line.

Anything that doesn't involve making plans for large groups of people and sticking to them and making hard personal sacrifices.

If you can't make honest, clear choices for the people you're supposed to love the most, fuck off.

Go collect stamps or rebuild engines or deal with things other than people.

 

[Keroin]

But you'd vote someone into office who does it without hesitation.

No, I'd vote for one particular person, because I know that in all the other aspects of his life that he is trustworthy, hard working, ethical and fair. I would forgive him that flaw because, on balance, it would be worth it.

 

[intothewoods]

Again, fuck complex. Life is complex. Get a helmet and go back to rudimentary relationship training and learning before your ego catapults you into areas where your ego and integrity is put to harder tests daily - politics.

They're not good or bad, they just have atrocious people skills and understandings of human relationships and I don't want someone like that at any helm.

All I need to know is that they need work. Lots of work. And I want them learning before they get the job, not ON the job.

Well, I agree that I don't look to any of them for marital advice. But I still get pretty kick ass legal advice from a certain friend of mine. It's like EQ v. IQ. People are good at different things. Some people are terrible at law school but are excellent lawyers. Some people are terrible at negotiating marriage but are great at herding a bunch of politicians together to vote their way. Maybe there is a distinction between inspirational leader and nuts and bolts, get it done, politicians. An overlap of the two in one person is a rare thing.

 

[Recidiva]

No, I'd vote for one particular person, because I know that in all the other aspects of his life that he is trustworthy, hard working, ethical and fair. I would forgive him that flaw because, on balance, it would be worth it.

Well, that's great for you.

It wouldn't be worth it to me. Ever. I'm serious about family integrity.

I'm still pissed at Buddha for abandoning his wife and son. Can't you go be enlightened later, you know, after your responsibilities are fulfilled?

The people that get hurt and betrayed are always the ones who count for me.