Does it really exist?

[chris9]

Not give him their life for the promise of gettin' something in return, but for the possibility of gettin' somethin'.

Not like "I'll give myself to you if you do this and that", more like "I'll give myself to you if and you can do anything you wish with me", and then hope that the guy's not an idiot.

Are there women who'd give up their free will and mind for nothing but the possibilty of gettin' something in return, should the dominant part of the relationship choose to give somethin' back?

As far as I have understood the replies and lots of other posts made in different threads, there is no trading what a sub receives in lieu to his/her submission. It's more that the sub will give the control over to a dom/me who cares for him/her and who wants to do the best for themselves AND for their subs.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by *gettin' somthin'*. Do you mean everthing as in love, consideration, attention, care, or more specific the kind of sex the sub prefers, favorite food/clothing...???
Maybe you can explain in some more words what kind of relationship you are talking about.

 

[Netzach]

Uh oh! You're getting me started on one of my pet peeves: this insistance in certain parts of the bdsm culture that you are not a good submissive if you ever suggest to the dom that things are less than perfect. :/ I see this one a lot in the personal-ad culture: subs are "instructed" that they are not good submissives if they question the dom or express honestly that something is bothering them. So everything with their master is "always perfect" and new submissives see this and get unrealistic expectations about their own future relationships. Their "slave training" often consists of teaching them to censor themselves and be dishonest and less than open so that they don't give the dominant training them any trouble. grrrrrr! Talk about a really stupid recepie for relationship disaster!

Awesome post.

For what it's worth the ONLY M/s relationships I've ever seen work have standing rules encouraging honest communication, either at designated times or at any time, in which the slave/sub is encouraged or even forced (it's hard for slaves and subs to say things are not working well for them, often) to say what's going on for them, good bad or ugly. Some of us top types even have to extract confessions or beat it out of y'all sometimes, but if we disregard the info....or just hear what we want to hear...

well the world is littered with the bones of those kinds of relationships, M/s D/s and vanilla.

It doesn't mean the slave/sub gets what they want. It doesn't mean they get to steer events necessarily. But it does mean that they get *heard* and it does mean that the information presented is part and parcel of the picture and under consideration in some way. Without information, without either reading your slave/sub based on knowing them *extremely* well or hearing it from the horse's mouth, the Dominant might as well be the person with the blindfold on.

I don't think anyone does something for nothing. I also don't delude myself in thinking that I'm so freaking brilliant that it's M and H's submission to ME that really matters. I aim to teach reverence when someone reveres me, and I hope that someone has a profound realization about himself when he submits to me. Those internal journeys and those dialogues between a person and his or her own relationship to the universe are far more important than the relationship, as cherished as my relationships are. Dominance does the same for me, because frankly, when I'm in my stride I feel I'm doing what I should be doing in the world, no more no less.

 

[anotherguyfromsweden]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by *gettin' somthin'*. Do you mean everthing as in love, consideration, attention, care, or more specific the kind of sex the sub prefers, favorite food/clothing...???
Maybe you can explain in some more words what kind of relationship you are talking about.

I mean anything, attention, love, sex, anything and everything.

 

[Netzach]

Not like "I'll give myself to you if you do this and that", more like "I'll give myself to you if and you can do anything you wish with me", and then hope that the guy's not an idiot.

I think what most of us have been saying, repeatedly, is yes yes yes....but the guy has to prove or indicate in some way he's not an idiot, most people are not willing to just bank on hope.

Think of how many idiots there are out there after all.

 

[chris9]

I mean anything, attention, love, sex, anything and everything.

After this my answer to your original question is more on the 'no' side. I don't think it is possible to submit to someone if you are not sure that this someone loves you and is going to do the best for you on the long run. I do believe that it is possible to find someone who, for some period, will live without the attention, sex, whatever, if that is how the dominant feels it should be, but without love... I know I would NOT dare to embark on such a journey with someone who doesn't feel love for me, who doesn't want to give ever.
And because we all are living creatures there is a minimum of care, attention, love, trust that we need to survive in a relationship (of for the relationship to survive), just like a pet needs us to feed it, caress it, take it to the vet...

 

[PPenny]

Let me ask the question a little differently:
Are there women who would put their life in the hands of someone, after maybe livin' with the guy for some time to make sure he's not a complete nutjob?
[....] and then hope that the guy's not an idiot.

If she's figured out you're not a nut job then why would she just have to hope you're not an idiot? If you prove to her that you're not crazy, you're not abusive, and you meet her needs then that's the end of it.

No, you can't just make a phone call and have some woman come to your house do your laundry and suck your cock and sit demurely if all you do is "treat her like dirt" from the get-go.

Women are people and have basic needs. You might be able to find one out there that has similar needs to you, and understands that you just wanna chill out and watch sports... hey! You might find a chick that likes to watch sports with you! And you know what? She just might be into doin housework. But, she might ask ya if maybe you'd go down on her every once and awhile, or maybe she really likes to sit there and eat pickles straight out of the jar and pickles just make you sick.

No woman is going to be the *perfect woman* who says "Yes honey, whatever you like.." Even submissive women are going to probably ask "why?" every once and awhile and/or bring up something they need if they don't feel like they're getting it.

No one just drops to their knees to someone upon first glance and says "I want to cater to your every needs no matter what you do to me." People first figure out their trust levels, their ability to meet eachother's needs, attraction.... all of that stuff. Whether you're in a vanilla or D/s relationship. If you don't fit at least the minimum requirements for a partner, she's not gonna want to be your girlfriend... or your sub.

 

[anotherguyfromsweden]

If she's figured out you're not a nut job then why would she just have to hope you're not an idiot? If you prove to her that you're not crazy, you're not abusive, and you meet her needs then that's the end of it.

No, you can't just make a phone call and have some woman come to your house do your laundry and suck your cock and sit demurely if all you do is "treat her like dirt" from the get-go.

Women are people and have basic needs. You might be able to find one out there that has similar needs to you, and understands that you just wanna chill out and watch sports... hey! You might find a chick that likes to watch sports with you! And you know what? She just might be into doin housework. But, she might ask ya if maybe you'd go down on her every once and awhile, or maybe she really likes to sit there and eat pickles straight out of the jar and pickles just make you sick.

No woman is going to be the *perfect woman* who says "Yes honey, whatever you like.." Even submissive women are going to probably ask "why?" every once and awhile and/or bring up something they need if they don't feel like they're getting it.

No one just drops to their knees to someone upon first glance and says "I want to cater to your every needs no matter what you do to me." People first figure out their trust levels, their ability to meet eachother's needs, attraction.... all of that stuff. Whether you're in a vanilla or D/s relationship. If you don't fit at least the minimum requirements for a partner, she's not gonna want to be your girlfriend... or your sub.

C'mon! I thought we'd already had this discussion. I'm not out to get someone to do cooking and cleaning for me. I also realize that you've got to give something in return, like love. I also realize that noone'll hand over their entire life on a silver platter in a matter of seconds.

Let me again ask the question a little differently: can you achieve the level of trust between two where one of them can hand over all control to the other unconditionally? The one with all the power doesn't have to do anything, he does whatever he wants to. Can you trust anyone enough to let him have that kind of power? Unconditional power. No safewords, no warranties, no nothin' 'cept for the hope that the dude's not gonna hurt you or put you in any real danger. Can you know someone that well, can you trust someone that much?
Everyone keeps sayin' "I know he won't hurt me or put me in danger", but you can't really know, there's always that outside chance. And that's what keeps most people (I guess) from being in that sort of relationship.

I'm very confused now.

And I've no idea what a "vanilla" relationship is.

 

[anotherguyfromsweden]

If she's figured out you're not a nut job then why would she just have to hope you're not an idiot? If you prove to her that you're not crazy, you're not abusive, and you meet her needs then that's the end of it.

As I've said: you can't really know for sure. There's always an outside chance (risc) that the dude'll go bananas. One can be pretty sure, but never a full 100%. I just have a hard time seeing how someone can give up that emergency exit, I've never seen that kind of trust. Maybe you should pity me for missing out on that, I don't know.

 

[Her sissy slave]

to exist

yes...

 

[Her sissy slave]

in a second

[I also realize that noone'll hand over their entire life on a silver platter in a matter of seconds.



gawd! i must be the only one on the planet that has and does!

 

[h_i_s]

yes...

Ditto.

gawd! i must be the only one on the planet that has and does!

Nope ...

 

[Masters_aphrodite]

[I also realize that noone'll hand over their entire life on a silver platter in a matter of seconds.



gawd! i must be the only one on the planet that has and does!

No you are not the only one.

 

[LunarKitten]

Ok, this might sound stupid, but I'm new to all this, so I don't know better. I'm simply wondering: does it exist? I mean I've met a lot of women but none of them would (I'm pretty sure) put their life in the hands of someone else. Are there actually women out there who do? I mean really, not just as a game that you can end at any moment. Women who actually feel sorry when they've upset their master/mistress, honestly sorry, do they exist?

If they do I'd like sure to meet them.

//AGfS

I know of several of them in my local communities. Sometimes we are the only ones we seem to be able to have a "real" conversation with. Those who like the spankings and floggings and wearing of collars and leashes as a roleplay or bedroom play only are just as deserving to be called submissives, but there are those of us out there who actually live this everyday and it's hard to find others who understand your mindset sometimes. When I upset my Master it absolutely tears me apart. As for putting my life in his hands, it seems like it's always been there. We actually "play a game" where I'm standing there and just fall back. I know he is always there to catch me. It's called trust, and without it, our relationship would fall apart as quickly as it would without communication.

 

[LunarKitten]

I am new to this and I know subs can trust completely[its how I know i am not a Dom- I cannot bring them to that place]but I could easily be brought to that place

Complete trust doesn't come overnight, or even in a week. It's something you have to build up slowly in the other person. As much as it feels I have always trusted my Master, I know it took time to build between us both - trust is a two way street.

I used to scene casually with Tops I know in the community. I happened to play once with someone who was fairly new, so he could learn techniques from someone else I knew well - yes, I was being a test dummy lol. After a few badly placed swipes, I flinched as I felt the next one coming. His response was, "What, don't you trust me?" Mine, "I don't know you well enough to trust you, but I do trust your instructor to teach you correctly...eventually."

Ok, so I can be very terse and to the point - even SAMmy, at times.

 

[LunarKitten]

Ok, at the risk of making an ass of myself (seeing how everyone seems to agree), I'll try to meet your arguments.




Ok, so you're on board as long as you're extremely happy, but I'm talking about unconditional love. I mean women who hold everything their master says for truth, who would do anything, anything. Not because they want to, but because they have to, because it's who they are.

AGfS

PS. I know I'm probably wrong, but I wanna keep the discussion goin', so what the hell. DS

When it's who you are, you're not doing it because you have to, you doing it because it's who you are and you want to. To hold everything as truth, without question...well, that sounds more like a doormat to me. Master expects me to chime in with my opinions. He keeps telling me that despite my arguements to the contrary, he's not all knowing and all seeing.

Luckily, he also has a very dry sense of humour. Which I happen to share. So he doesn't mind if I tease and pop off a few jokes. About the only place we don't joke around in is when we're in the middle of a serious scene together (the beginnings and endings are left open to whatever happens - ie, once he had a cup of ice for the end of a long spanking scene and after several very hard slaps to my ass, he placed an ice cube on it. After asking if that felt good and getting a positive response, he slapped my ass harder a few more time and then remarked, "Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot I was a sadist." My response, "Damnit, so did I!")

 

[LunarKitten]

I also have people who I'd trust with my life; people I love. But there's noone I love unconditionally, noone I wouldn't walk out on if they treated me like shit.

If you feel, even the tiniest of inklings, that they would ever treat you that way, then you don't fully trust them. And that would be the perfect reason to not accept their collar. I know my Master would never treat me badly. No matter what I did, he would scold me, yes, but make me feel like shit? Never. I may be his property and his wife and the mother of his children, but I am very much loved and cherished. We have our ups and downs, like every other couple in the world, but we have trust and love and communication and work through any problems that arise. If you like a toy you take care of it, or it won't work the same way ever again. The same goes for a pyl. PYLs who really and truely care about their pyls make sure they don't get broken.

 

[LunarKitten]

What the hell's a "munch"?

What I mean is: if I had a sub and treated her totally unfair, like dirt, would she still love me? That's what I'm wonderin', are there such women?

If you're allowed total control over someone only as long as she agrees with everything you do, that's not real control, then it's just a game.

//AGfS

There are some people out there who get off on being treated like that, but not all the time. It can be negotiated and it can work out to be treated and to treat someone in a harsh, unloving way. It's called humilation. I know quiet a few who like being treated like that. But I doubt they could handle being treated like that 24/7.

And you are correct, it is a game if they are only in it for as long as they enjoy it . It's something you will see referred to as "topping from the bottom". I may not always agree with what my Master says and does, but I know he would never do anything detrimental to my health and safety. And we tend to discuss new things before we do them - mainly to avoid emotional landmines that may pop up during the course of new play and discuss safety issues involved with said play.

 

[LunarKitten]

Then it's not really unconditional, is it?

And seriously, what's a "munch"?!

I think it is. You cannot truely trust someone unless they have shown they deserve to be trusted. Once that initial step as been taken, THEN unconditional trust can develop. Trust is developed in stages. And unless the other person also trusts you, can you truely trust the person? It's a two way street, no matter what the power exchange is between you, it's about give and take and you have to take to give sometimes. I could never give unconditional trust to someone I didn't know very very well, and only if they also felt they could trust me.

For example: If someone had you bound and were in the process of suspending you, they would have to trust you to use your safeword if anything went wrong. However, you would also have to trust they would respect the safeword you used.

See, it's not all black and white. I know, some people don't believe in safewords. But even in those situations, you have to trust the other person to see you're in a predicament to slow down or stop the scene and the PYL has to trust that you will say or use body language to show that it's needed - unlike some who declare they will suck it up and take anything you give even if it lands them in the emergency room later.

 

[LunarKitten]

I'm kind of feeling this topic. It would be nice to own a complete doormat.

Fuck all that "nobody wants a doormat" bullshit! I would love a fucking doormat! Someone whose sole purpose was to serve me and make my life better and never worried about her own needs. Sounds like the perfect slave to me.

Unfortunately in the real world I think women like that are very rare and often come with negative sides themselves. Maybe they hold everything in and try to kill in your sleep or something, who knows, but everything balances out in this bitch ass planet.

The truth is if you want that kind of lasting and serious love from someone you really gotta offer it back just as strong.

OMG...the sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!

<---actually finding herself agreeing with Marquis

 

[Marquis]

OMG...the sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!

<---actually finding herself agreeing with Marquis

You want a doormat too?

 

[LunarKitten]

There are other sorts of bdsm relationships out there. I am not qualified to speak about them much as I have not experienced them nor do I understand their ins and outs the way I understand the type of relationship I have experienced firsthand and am talking about here. What I can say is this: in the relationship I was in, my master genuinely had total control over me and it wasn't a matter of my agreeing to it constantly. During the first eight months or so it might have been that way, just a little, but after that point, I was pretty much a "hooked for life," lol.

I think that's true of a lot of people, on this board, online and out in our communities. There are so many different ways to be in a D/s or M/s relationship, there are Tops, bottoms, Dominants, submissives, Masters/Mistresses, slaves, Switches, etc, etc (Thus the terms PYL and pyl are so wonderful to use). There are those who live this 24/7, there are those who do this once or twice a week, there are those that only do this at parties, there are those who only do this in the bedroom, there are those that only "play", there are those who never play but only use D/s, etc.

It's hard to say that what you do is the one and true way of doing things, because there are just so many ways of doing it and one way will not work for another couple just because it worked for you. However, I think there are a lot of people out there who do actually think there is only one way to practice WIITWD. I have always found closed minded, unyielding people who feel the need to trash everything one person says because they don't believe in that thing or that thing isn't something they do, as kind of sad. I don't think they realise how much they are missing out on in life by being that way and pushing people away from them who could be friendly and good conversationists with them. Maybe they are afraid to find out who the man is behind the curtain?

 

[LunarKitten]

This post reminded me that I am at the start of a very long journey.

Just thought I'd share.

It can be very long and very daunting. But don't let that scare you away from it. Because at the journey's end is something more satisfying and more life enriching than anything you could ever imagine. It's not all a cake walk, but the hard times are well worth the effort.

 

[LunarKitten]

No, I ain't that fuckin' cool, but like pretty much all other dudes out there (I assume) I wouldn't give nothin' back. I thought we'd already established the fact that I'm not some assshole who's out to get a maid or a cook, if I was wrong; consider it established!

Let me ask the question a little differently:
Are there women who would put their life in the hands of someone, after maybe livin' with the guy for some time to make sure he's not a complete nutjob?

Not give him their life for the promise of gettin' something in return, but for the possibility of gettin' somethin'.

Not like "I'll give myself to you if you do this and that", more like "I'll give myself to you if and you can do anything you wish with me", and then hope that the guy's not an idiot.

Are there women who'd give up their free will and mind for nothing but the possibilty of gettin' something in return, should the dominant part of the relationship choose to give somethin' back?

There are more than a few of them out there. It just takes time and patience to shift through those who aren't to find the ones that are.

 

[LunarKitten]

C'mon! I thought we'd already had this discussion. I'm not out to get someone to do cooking and cleaning for me. I also realize that you've got to give something in return, like love. I also realize that noone'll hand over their entire life on a silver platter in a matter of seconds.

Let me again ask the question a little differently: can you achieve the level of trust between two where one of them can hand over all control to the other unconditionally? The one with all the power doesn't have to do anything, he does whatever he wants to. Can you trust anyone enough to let him have that kind of power? Unconditional power. No safewords, no warranties, no nothin' 'cept for the hope that the dude's not gonna hurt you or put you in any real danger. Can you know someone that well, can you trust someone that much?
Everyone keeps sayin' "I know he won't hurt me or put me in danger", but you can't really know, there's always that outside chance. And that's what keeps most people (I guess) from being in that sort of relationship.

I'm very confused now.

And I've no idea what a "vanilla" relationship is.

There may be an outside chance, but that is what unconditionally trust is about. You trust that person so much that you never think about that outside chance. Yes, there is a possibility that my Master may not always catch me, but if that was all I thought about, I'd never be able to fall back at all, ever.

But, yes, you can love someone that much that you can give over aspect of your life into their hands and trust them that much. I think that is what you've been hearing. A lot of us here have that kind of relationship with our PYLs and pyls. Master doesn't have to do a thing for me, but he does a lot just by trusting me to run our house and our family.

 

[LunarKitten]

You want a doormat too?

Nah, I wouldn't know what to do with one...after all, the chores are mine to do lol No one goes into my kitchen And no one is going to pick up my house, well, maybe with the exception of lil lunar - gotta teach a youngin' to clean and cook so they'll be able to take care of themselves when they leave the nest.

But, yes, I agree, doormats may be very appealing, but they can be total nutcases that you won't necessarily like when they snap