Doom's Day

[raphy]

I mean I don't go round pretending to be royalty just because some moistened bint throws a scimitar at me.

Gauche

Y'know Gauche, after having just last night watched Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail, that made me laugh entirely more than it should have done.

Raph, still anti-euro.

 

[Icingsugar]

Politicians in a democracy aren't even representatives, they are delegates. Once the people elect them into power we also delegate all power to them, for a fixed term of office. If they fuck up, so be it, we chose to elect them in the first place. If they fuck up big time they sure as hell won't get re-elected, so they do try not to.

That'sthe practical way of executing the idea. But the idea is still that the power is with the pepole. And anyone in offffice should be aware of that in theory, the delegated "power" can be taken back if the politicians are not doing their job.

The idea of a repesentative democracy and political parties is that it is convenient. There are thousands of small desicions that has top be made, and eveyone does not have the time to take sides all the time. That's why we have parties and four year terms to deal with that, and makre itall al little bit more convenient. A political party elected into office is put there because it's voters think they can best execute their own idea of how the nation should be run. This happebns etiher because the party is honest about their plans, or because theyt lead the pepole around by the nose and then do ewhat they damn well please once they're elected. In the case with the sitting Swedish gobvernment, the vast majority of their voters were strongly against the official line of the rulers. Thus, the rulers, as representatives if their voters, did not do their job.

And today they had an easy wayt top speak up about it. Guess what? We did.


end of rant
/Ice

 

[Lauren Hynde]

You have a point, Lou, but honestly, I don't think the Euro should be a referendable issue.

It is a fundamentally political decision, and not one of sovereignty. There may be different positions within the same party with regards to timings and minutia, but it's a decision that influences every single aspect of political life. Most parties have a clear guideline in this aspect and if they don't it's because they're being grossly incompetent.

There have been two referenda in Portugal, in recent years.

One was about Abortion. This is a personal choice, unrelated to policy, where party allegiance doesn't play a part. This is an issue suited for this sort of public voting.

The other one was about a different administrative division of the country, the creations of supra-municipal political regions, to better control the territory. Like the Euro, I don't think this is a matter for special referendum. It should be decided by those more aware of the advantages and disadvantages of either system, not by people that don't really know the issues, that are too afraid to move or too eager to do it.

None of them had more than the 50% participation required to make the decisions binding, by the way.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

We WON! We WON! We WON!

 

[Guest]

As I said, I'm happy just for you, Flicka. LOVE the AV.

Perdita

p.s.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

It's hilarious to see what sore losers the yes-voters are. Politicians and economists are pouting on TV right now, saying things like "Well, if that's what you want, we'll wash our hands! We've told you this will be bad for Sweden, but you chose to do this anyway. We'll respect it, but we think you've chosen wrong."



And that's the beauty of Democracy - we HAVE chosen. And you MUST respect it.


Na na na na naaaah nah!

 

[pop_54]

Hmmmmmmmm

I, on the other hand, don't even agree with the existence of these types of referenda. I don't know what's the political situation in Sweden, but what usually happens is the Government having a firm conviction and campaigning for it. Their entire political programs are made around certain decisions, and European integration is that big of a decision. If 'No' wins, in any referendum, you're basically saying to the politicians to govern the country in a way they do not condone. Which makes no sense. If you don't like the policy, vote for someone else at the general elections.

The people shouldn't be asked to decide on aspects they know nothing of...

This is just the system we anti Euro's object to, the people don't count attitude of the grand Euro plan of things, why we will never, well some of us, vote to be ruled by an unelected foreigner in some far off place.
I voted to join a free market back when, not to be ruled by it, I'm happy with our hap hazzard half unelected outfit over here, at least we can get at them if we need to.




pops.......good on you svenska and ice man.

 

[oggbashan]

No it is until 2013

According to Reuters with 95% counted the noes have it. And they can't hold another referendum on the Euro until 2013.

That strengthens the case for the pound staying out as well.

Even those countries in it are breaking the rules of the Euro. We now have French people shopping in the UK. Used to be cheaper for most things in France. It is still cheaper to buy diesel fuel and detergent for the washing machine in France.

I feel stupid buying detergent in France. I feel nearly as stupid buying beer that has been made in Kent. The ferries ship the beer to warehouses in Calais. Then we go over and buy it back. Taxation is wonderful!

Og

 

[Lauren Hynde]

It's hilarious to see what sore losers the yes-voters are. Politicians and economists are pouting on TV right now, saying things like "Well, if that's what you want, we'll wash our hands! We've told you this will be bad for Sweden, but you chose to do this anyway. We'll respect it, but we think you've chosen wrong."



And that's the beauty of Democracy - we HAVE chosen. And you MUST respect it.


Na na na na naaaah nah!

I'd congratulate you, and I truly hope you won't look back to this day thinking differently, but I seriously doubt it. Like I said, they now have carte blanche to do whatever they want and throw the blame on the people that chose not because they knew it was the best option, but out of fear and ignorance. Good luck, sincerily.

 

[MathGirl]

We WON! We WON! We WON!

Dear Svenska,
Umm... Yay. Cool AV.
MG

 

[gauchecritic]

You will be ruled by the government you deserve.

ok. Lots of things. All to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

I, honestly, have yet to hear a good reason, any reason, not to join the Euro. Other than "we'll be ruled by the Deutchbank". (Not a good or even reasonable reason, who do you think our money is regulated by at this point? Not the bank of England)

I have always believed that politicians ran the country until two things happened. 1) I joined the party. (no longer. And they managed to lose my letter of resignation which was a beauty) and 2) I witnessed Tony Benn on what happens when you become a cabinet minister: You present your manifesto to the unelected civil service and they present theirs to you. Democracy? Elected government? bollocks.

Taking issue with my dad. "to be ruled by an unelected foreigner in some far off place". Hundreds of miles rather than thousands.

I'd agree with Lauren wholeheartedly about referendable decisions if I thought for one moment that those we elect are really those in power. Essentially she is correct. You're given the choice and they are your 'voice'.

And Svenska encapsulated it all. If your country has a reading age of 11 years (I'm painting every country with the same tar here) then

If you're hinting that people are too stupid to decide for themselves, then you're saying that democracy is wrong, and we should have a Big Brother ordering us around.

At least the trains would run on time.

Gauche

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Re: You will be ruled by the government you deserve.

At least the trains would run on time.

Gauche

Amen.

 

[Icingsugar]

Hmm, I just thought of something. . Maybe I should had voted yes after all. See, it worked out perfectly last time, when we had to vote wether or not to join the EU.

I voted no, the yes-side won. That meany I could stay clear off the blame for the whole circus. "Hey, don't blame me. I voted no."

Now I'm on the winning side. That means it's my fault if everything goes downhill. Not that I think it will, but just to be safe. I care more about my ego than my country.

 

[Icingsugar]

Re: You will be ruled by the government you deserve.

At least the trains would run on time.

Pha. Not even a totalitarian technocracy with unlimited rescources would pull that off.

 

[Quasimodem]

Pha. Not even a totalitarian technocracy with unlimited resources would pull that off.

Just shoot all the engineers who didn’t make their schedule.
Isn't that’s how Mussolini did it?

 

[gauchecritic]

Re: Re: You will be ruled by the government you deserve.

Pha. Not even a totalitarian technocracy with unlimited rescources would pull that off.

Eerm am I being too too 'Carry On' here or were you talking about something else entirely.

Eeoow Matron.

Gauche

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Just shoot all the engineers who didn’t make their schedule.
Isn't that’s how Mussolini did it?

And DAMNED those Italian trains are punctual!!!

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Hmm, I just thought of something. . Maybe I should had voted yes after all. See, it worked out perfectly last time, when we had to vote wether or not to join the EU.

I voted no, the yes-side won. That meany I could stay clear off the blame for the whole circus. "Hey, don't blame me. I voted no."

Now I'm on the winning side. That means it's my fault if everything goes downhill. Not that I think it will, but just to be safe. I care more about my ego than my country.

Fegis!

 

[Guest]

 

[Lauren Hynde]

That's so clever...

 

[Pure]

Gauche opined,
'
//You know they wouldn't have called it unless they knew the result beforehand.//

Damn, sometimes the Bilderbergers** and Masons just stop pulling strings for one second, and ...


Oh, yeah,

//they'll ask you all again anyway //

a fiendish subterfuge, that!



**
http://www.world-action.co.uk/terror.html

---
"once again Gauche was right." Destinie21
"once again Destinie21 was right." Gauche

 

[bridgeburner]

Lime,

Glad I wasn't the only one who thought of those trains. I've always associated that phrase with the Death Camps. I'm not sure why, but I could've sworn it was a famous quotation about the horror of certain types of efficiency.


-B

 

[Guest]

Re: You will be ruled by the government you deserve.

... who do you think our money is regulated by at this point?

... if I thought for one moment that those we elect are really those in power.

... At least the trains would run on time.

The first two excerpts above make for a fine concision of the roots of my cynicism (bred too long ago to mention; within my geopolitical boundaries the marionettes do not matter, e.g., Dubya, Arnold).

The third quote is reference to a historical piece of brilliant political irony (mistakenly associated w/the camps by those not thoroughly well read in European history).

Perdita

 

[Icingsugar]

Fegis!

Sju dagar i veckan!

 

[Icingsugar]

Re: Re: Re: You will be ruled by the government you deserve.

Eerm am I being too too 'Carry On' here or were you talking about something else entirely.

Eeoow Matron.

Gauche

Just trains, my friend. They don't run on time.

It has nothing to do with ideology or politics.

It is a natural law. Like gravity, and stuff.