Earn This!

[bigbill92690]

You have made my point... Only one demands or it will not work

 

[CutieMouse]

Random half-formed thought twitching about the edges of my mind...

I've often seen comments about how a PYL must "earn" the pyl's trust/submission/blahblahblah, in part because the pyl is the one getting his/her ass beaten, tied up, whored out, whatever. So yeah- obvious risk there, gotta trust whomever is doing the beating/tying/whore decisioning/whatever to have good judgement and all that.

But it's occuring to me that I've not often seen a discussions of the flip side. Why? PYLs risk legal issues (should something go wrong), are just as likely to having their hearts broken, be asked to do things outside their personal comfort zone, whatever... so why don't discussions of the PYL's equal need for trust/faith/belief in a partner come up as often?

 

[ataxia.girl]

But it's occuring to me that I've not often seen a discussions of the flip side. Why? PYLs risk legal issues (should something go wrong), are just as likely to having their hearts broken, be asked to do things outside their personal comfort zone, whatever... so why don't discussions of the PYL's equal need for trust/faith/belief in a partner come up as often?

i dunno what PYL's you are talk to but potential D's are always asking me to jump through hoops the second i am saying hello and saying i have to prove things to them. i finally got sick of it and quit believing the burden of proof was on me to show them i am a REAL submissive whatever the fuck that is.

i've got the collar me crankies though. Would be so much better if i could just go to a munch and meet the way normal people do but is not really practical for me. i'd be as combative and inconsistent meeting people in RL as i am online anyway so maybe it doesn't matter.

 

[ataxia.girl]

You have made my point... Only one demands or it will not work

The crazy little girl makes all the demands

 

[CutieMouse]

i dunno what PYL's you are talk to but potential D's are always asking me to jump through hoops the second i am saying hello and saying i have to prove things to them. i finally got sick of it and quit believing the burden of proof was on me to show them i am a REAL submissive whatever the fuck that is.

i've got the collar me crankies though. Would be so much better if i could just go to a munch and meet the way normal people do but is not really practical for me. i'd be as combative and inconsistent meeting people in RL as i am online anyway so maybe it doesn't matter.

I'm not talking about HNG first conversation "[meet me for coffee not wearing panties] to prove you're a real submissive" stuff; I eat little boys like that for breakfast.

I'm thinking along the lines of both parties take risks, both parties deserve resepect and to feel they can trust the other - so why do discussions of trust generally focus on the pyl's need to trust the PYL? We're all people; kinky or not, these things do tend to boil down to being relationships... why do the conversations tend to be so one sided?

 

[ecstaticsub]

I'm not talking about HNG first conversation "[meet me for coffee not wearing panties] to prove you're a real submissive" stuff; I eat little boys like that for breakfast.

I'm thinking along the lines of both parties take risks, both parties deserve resepect and to feel they can trust the other - so why do discussions of trust generally focus on the pyl's need to trust the PYL? We're all people; kinky or not, these things do tend to boil down to being relationships... why do the conversations tend to be so one sided?

Very good point. My PYL needs to be able to trust me as much as I need to trust in him. He needs to know that I will use my safeword if I something is wrong, that I will be honest with him, and since mine is a LDR that I will do as he tells me even if he can't see me do it.

I didn't demand his trust, he didn't demand mine. Over time our trust in each other just developed to the point it is now.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I'm thinking along the lines of both parties take risks, both parties deserve resepect and to feel they can trust the other - so why do discussions of trust generally focus on the pyl's need to trust the PYL? We're all people; kinky or not, these things do tend to boil down to being relationships... why do the conversations tend to be so one sided?

Not sure. i agree it goes both ways. i think the trust issue on the other side is probably the underlying reason for all the consent threads.

One thing that doesn't get talked about much though i think is the pain that comes from having a submissive leave. D's get hurt too.

 

[rida]

Trust is very important. Trust is something that may or may not grow in time.
But I don't think that it is something that you can earn by jumping hoops and hurdles. And I think it goes both ways: PYLs need to trust pyls as much as pyls need to trust PYLs.

It goes by level: first you trust someone enough to have a conversation with them and perhaps agree to meet them. If things work out, you trust them enough to engage in sex/play depending on what you are looking for.
Perhaps at first you only trust them to play within a very limited and well defined set of activities, or perhaps you trust them right away to bound and gag you and use a knife. It all depends on the personality involved. And with the relationship growing you might trust more, or not.
For instance, perhaps your partner does not have a very steady hand. No matter how long you are in a relationship, and how much you trust him with everything else, perhaps you will never trust him enough to let him pierce your pinky bits.

What I'm trying to say is that, producing lists, giving assignments or hoops to jump is not necessarily a bad thing, but even doing all those things and passing those tests is no guarantee of trustworthiness.

It comes in time, with the knowledge of the other person. On both side is a continuous refinement and deepening.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Well, there have been lots of good comments here. Personally, I believe trust is a two-way street that develops over the early stages of the relationship - whether the relationship is BDSM or vanilla really doesn't matter, trust is trust. When each person does what they say they will do, trust builds. There isn't any 'earning' going on, just two people investing time and energy into getting to know each other.

But I also don't get the jumping through hoops thing either, whether sub or Dom. That's just silly middle school stuff, as far as I'm concerned. Tell me to come to a first meet in a short skirt with no panties to prove something, and I'm done. I'm a human being first, and I expect to be treated respectfully, just as I treat others.

i grew up not being allowed to ever call boys or ask them out. Good girls waited for boys to ask them.

So did I (deep South born and bred), which is why I still struggle with making that first approach. It's very, very difficult for me to do. It's not that I need to be pursued in the way you mentioned earlier, it's just that I really, really have problems approaching someone I'm interested in. Might be why I remain on the sidelines.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Random half-formed thought twitching about the edges of my mind...

I've often seen comments about how a PYL must "earn" the pyl's trust/submission/blahblahblah, in part because the pyl is the one getting his/her ass beaten, tied up, whored out, whatever. So yeah- obvious risk there, gotta trust whomever is doing the beating/tying/whore decisioning/whatever to have good judgement and all that.

But it's occuring to me that I've not often seen a discussions of the flip side. Why? PYLs risk legal issues (should something go wrong), are just as likely to having their hearts broken, be asked to do things outside their personal comfort zone, whatever... so why don't discussions of the PYL's equal need for trust/faith/belief in a partner come up as often?

There have been discussions here before about it, but as to why it doesn't come up as often...my guess would be because more often than not the forum is PYL light (as in usually way less PYL's than pyl's posting), most PYL's are secure enough in themselves to decide if they don't get that feeling of trust going both ways they are not going to proceed further, and because it seems more pyl's need to ask, be reassured, guided etc., than do PYL's overall.

Catalina

 

[Homburg]

Random half-formed thought twitching about the edges of my mind...

I've often seen comments about how a PYL must "earn" the pyl's trust/submission/blahblahblah, in part because the pyl is the one getting his/her ass beaten, tied up, whored out, whatever. So yeah- obvious risk there, gotta trust whomever is doing the beating/tying/whore decisioning/whatever to have good judgement and all that.

But it's occuring to me that I've not often seen a discussions of the flip side. Why? PYLs risk legal issues (should something go wrong), are just as likely to having their hearts broken, be asked to do things outside their personal comfort zone, whatever... so why don't discussions of the PYL's equal need for trust/faith/belief in a partner come up as often?

I discuss it with people all the time. While you always hear that communication is the most important thing, I am a misanthrope in that I think that trust trumps communication. And trust goes both ways. Sure, she has to trust me, but, as you said, I MUST trust her. And the things I am willing to do to her are limited more by my trust of her than by her limits. As I've said in other threads, I won't do edgeplay with someone that I do not trust bloody well, and I won't do the really serious edgeplay unless I trust the bottom implicitly.

I'm thinking along the lines of both parties take risks, both parties deserve resepect and to feel they can trust the other - so why do discussions of trust generally focus on the pyl's need to trust the PYL? We're all people; kinky or not, these things do tend to boil down to being relationships... why do the conversations tend to be so one sided?

There have been discussions here before about it, but as to why it doesn't come up as often...my guess would be because more often than not the forum is PYL light (as in usually way less PYL's than pyl's posting), most PYL's are secure enough in themselves to decide if they don't get that feeling of trust going both ways they are not going to proceed further, and because it seems more pyl's need to ask, be reassured, guided etc., than do PYL's overall.

Catalina

I think cat summed it up well here. There isn't a whole lot of PYL discussion going on here compared to pyl-talk. When it happens, the threads are generally memorable (RJMasters' excellent "Delving into the psyche of sadists" thread for example).

It does get into some interesting territory regarding PYL's and herding cats though. Probably a topic for another thread...