For women in this lifestyle with children

[JMohegan]

H'mmm...

This one's tricky. I have no children, never have had, never wanted them. However, my new toy, who may be invited to move in, has a (minor) child. It is not at all that I dislike children, but I really don't want the sort of relationship where sex is restricted to bedrooms at night. And I really don't the sort of relationship where my toy can't wear the things I find interesting around the house.

The child is not my child, of course. The child has a father, and I'm not seeking to usurp his position. So as far as the child is concerned, I am mummy's lover, nothing else. I may discipline the mother, but I shan't discipline the child.

However. Obviously, if she moves in, there are going to have to be compromises. But...

• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing a collar (I'm thinking of one of the nice German industrial metal ones)?
• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing sexy clothes?
• Is it so bad if a child sometimes sees her mother naked?
• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother being kissed, or cuddled?

And after those,

• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets tied up?
• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets spanked?
• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets hit with things?

I mean, obviously, the child must never hear her mother scream or sob (although both my toy and I will want screams and tears more than sometimes). Obviously the child must never see her mother being hit. Obviously the child must grow up to know that women deserve to be treated with as much respect as men. But, surely it's not completely wrong for a school-age child to see any of those things in the first group, and not completely impossible for an adolescent child to know (but not see) those things in the second?

We're thinking about going into this relationship because we both want a fairly no-limits D/s relationship, tending towards M/s. If having a child around the house actually means that what we end up with is a 95% vanilla relationship, with all the BDSM aspects squeezed entirely into the interstices where the child is absent... that needs some very careful thought.

So help me here. How does one build aspects of BDSM practice into a family life with children? I'm either going to have to find a way to believe this is possible, or else to drop a relationship which looks extremely promising.

At what age/stage of development is it okay for a child to know that her non-kinky mother takes it up the ass, or gives great head?

You're not asking about building "aspects of BDSM practice into a family life with children." You're asking about building sex into a family life with children. C'mon, man. Think about this. Think about *your* perspective as a kid.

 

[JMohegan]

You know nothing about children, you dont really want them and you want your life basically undisturbed. That cant happen if you start living with a child. You cant be "just mummy's lover" and nothing else, it is not really for you to decide what kind of figure you might have to be in that kids life, you will have to be what child needs from you.

Sex and things your toy wear around the house will certainly not be the same with her child living in that same house, that is something you should know already.
I somehow have the feeling you consider that child a sort of possible nuisance and that is a wrong kind of attitude in my opinion. You should be more worried about their mental well being than your pleasure if you are really set to make that kind of union work.

Exactly.

 

[SimonBrooke]

At what age/stage of development is it okay for a child to know that her non-kinky mother takes it up the ass, or gives great head?

You're not asking about building "aspects of BDSM practice into a family life with children." You're asking about building sex into a family life with children. C'mon, man. Think about this. Think about *your* perspective as a kid.

My experience as a kid? What has that to do with anything? The things I did as a kid would get my parents jailed these days! Those were much more liberal days, fifty years ago.

But I certainly knew (in an academic sense) that my parents had a sex-life by the time I was ten, and I certainly saw both of them naked on occasion. Has this left me scarred for life? I don't believe so. Yet to read people up this thread, that amounts to child abuse!

 

[ecstaticsub]

When I was little we only had one bathroom in the house. I was about 6 or 7 and walked in to the bathroom in the middle of the night, turned on the light and saw my father with a hard on and my mother behind the shower curtain. I have no idea what they were doing but that image of my father stuck in my head, and though it didn't impact my relationship with my father I did have nightmares about it off and on well into my teens.

Another case, we were on vacation I was about 11 and was sharing a room with my parents. They thought I was asleep. Nope, the things they were saying and the pictures those words made in my imagination are not something a child should have to deal with.

And my parents were totally vanilla!!

My husband and I kiss in front of my children and sometimes we will teasingly smack one another on the ass. We are very open about talking about sex with our teen children, but they don't want to know anything other than we love each other and physical affection goes along with that. Of course , they know we have sex. We even will tell them we are going to take a "nap" in the middle of the afternoon. But we are quiet.

You can still have the power exchange without the kinky, sexy clothes and obvious collar.

In my opinion there is NEVER a time for a child to know their mother gets tied up, spanked or hit especially as punishment and especially from a man who is not their father.

 

[CutieMouse]

My experience as a kid? What has that to do with anything? The things I did as a kid would get my parents jailed these days! Those were much more liberal days, fifty years ago.

But I certainly knew (in an academic sense) that my parents had a sex-life by the time I was ten, and I certainly saw both of them naked on occasion. Has this left me scarred for life? I don't believe so. Yet to read people up this thread, that amounts to child abuse!

No, not child abuse... however, one would be wise to take a step back and listen unemotionally to the points of view given. One doesn't have to *hide* one's life; however, one would be wise to respect the child's comfort levels re: exposure to various things mentioned.

I'm afraid I don't really have time to go into this at length at the moment; I'll be back to add my two cents (kinky, divorced mother of 5 with PT custody) after work tonight.

 

[JMohegan]

My experience as a kid? What has that to do with anything? The things I did as a kid would get my parents jailed these days! Those were much more liberal days, fifty years ago.

But I certainly knew (in an academic sense) that my parents had a sex-life by the time I was ten, and I certainly saw both of them naked on occasion. Has this left me scarred for life? I don't believe so. Yet to read people up this thread, that amounts to child abuse!

No, not what you did as a kid. I meant your perspective on your parents' sexual activities.

If they had divorced, and your dad got custody, and he subsequently developed the habit of hanging out naked with a big metal collar around his neck in your presence, how would you have felt about that? That's the type of thing I was suggesting that you to consider.

 

[StrayKat]

In my opinion there is NEVER a time for a child to know their mother gets tied up, spanked or hit especially as punishment and especially from a man who is not their father.

Absolutely. That is the kind of thing that child could never understand and it can disrupt the way she perceives her mother in a very bad way.

 

[jenniferbaby]

I'm not an active BDSM practioner nor a mother, but I plan to be both of these one day and will at some point be both of them at once.

As a child looking at my parents, I'm not sure which is worse--knowing that they once had an active sex life that eventually produced me, or knowing that they dislike each other so much at this point in their lives that they will never have sex again. My mother was always liberal and understanding about sex and we openly talk about it, but my parents are hardly examples of healthy and vibrant sexuality. I find my father's attitudes about sex to be completely revolting, and these are just the few I happened upon over the years.

If my parents did truly love each other and did show affection for each other, maybe I might have been ok as a kid seeing the occasional toy or hearing strange noises, but then again maybe not. I think there's a fine line between denying and hiding one's sexuality and being so open with it that it disturbs a child's development. I guess determining where that line is will be different for every parent and every child.

You can still have the power exchange without the kinky, sexy clothes and obvious collar.

In my opinion there is NEVER a time for a child to know their mother gets tied up, spanked or hit especially as punishment and especially from a man who is not their father.

I agree with this completely. For me personally, as an adult developing my own sexuality, I'll be content never to know whether or not my parents enjoyed aspects of BDSM. And I'll assume my future children feel the same.

 

[SirLeo]

Be Comfortable / Be Discreet

When I was little we only had one bathroom in the house. I was about 6 or 7 and walked in to the bathroom in the middle of the night, turned on the light and saw my father with a hard on and my mother behind the shower curtain. I have no idea what they were doing but that image of my father stuck in my head, and though it didn't impact my relationship with my father I did have nightmares about it off and on well into my teens.

Another case, we were on vacation I was about 11 and was sharing a room with my parents. They thought I was asleep. Nope, the things they were saying and the pictures those words made in my imagination are not something a child should have to deal with.

And my parents were totally vanilla!!

My husband and I kiss in front of my children and sometimes we will teasingly smack one another on the ass. We are very open about talking about sex with our teen children, but they don't want to know anything other than we love each other and physical affection goes along with that. Of course , they know we have sex. We even will tell them we are going to take a "nap" in the middle of the afternoon. But we are quiet.

You can still have the power exchange without the kinky, sexy clothes and obvious collar.

In my opinion there is NEVER a time for a child to know their mother gets tied up, spanked or hit especially as punishment and especially from a man who is not their father.

sub said everything I would have and can only add a few more thoughts. My wife and I have always been comfortable with nudity in front of the children (boys now 11 & 7). Its just never been a big deal and they don't stress. They have natuaraly come to want their own privacy, we don't make a big deal about the older one shutting his door and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that he is experimenting with his own budding sexual awareness. We ask them if they would like to talk about sex or their bodies from time to time and when they want to we do.

We never talk about the details of our sex life with them although they see us hugging and kissing and grabbing a little ass regularly. I expect that as they get older, hopefully late teens!, they'll be exposed to more and wil have questions. When they are ready, we'll be able to explain things to them at a level they can understand.

I would never ever force a situation onto a child that they couldn't comprehend. Yet our kids seem to be pretty well adjusted. A funny thing happened a couple of weeks ago. For some reason my wife left our box of toys under the bed instead of up in the closet. The cat got under the bed and the boys were trying to get her out. The box openend up and the toys, dildoes, vibes, cuffs, etc. went onto the floor. Of course they asked, and I said, "These are just aldut toys that Mommy and Daddy play with soemtimes. They are not for children to play with" Thankfully they let it go at that....

 

[HottieMama]

However. Obviously, if she moves in, there are going to have to be compromises. But...

Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing a collar (I'm thinking of one of the nice German industrial metal ones)?
Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing sexy clothes?
Is it so bad if a child sometimes sees her mother naked?
Is it so bad if a child sees her mother being kissed, or cuddled?
And after those,

At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets tied up?
At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets spanked?
At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets hit with things?

My older children have seen me being kissed and cuddled... No big deal. They know Mommy and XX (not their father) are very happy together and good parents to them. They have also seen me naked on accident a few times. (They are 3 and 5. I have had to leap out of the shower because one of them woke up screaming or was getting sick.) I would not purposefully walk around naked in their presence. IMO, it is inappropriate. As for sexy clothes, for me that requires more clarification. Are we talking a low cut top or a leather thong and pasties? One is ok IMO, the other not so much.

As for the appropriate age for children to know of their parents lifestyle practices, I don't think it is at any point when they are in school. Think about when you were young. Kids talk to other kids and other adults. They sometimes are a little too honest and blunt and tell things they shouldn't. All a teacher/ care provider/ coach etc...has to hear is that "Mommy gets spanked by XX." and they are REQUIRED by law to report it to child welfare authorities. Then you and your "toy" will find yourselves subject to a grueling and emotionally painful investigation which could end in your "toy" losing custody of her child. Do you really want that to happen? Somethings are just better kept behind closed doors.

That said, I hope you do realize that while you are not this child's father, you will be a parental figure to him and you should expect to act accordingly or not have your toy move in with you at all to begin with. When she moves there, you not only assume responsibility for her, but also for her son. If you are not ready, willing and/or able to handle that don't do it to begin with.

 

[Harmony_1985]

H'mmm...

This one's tricky. I have no children, never have had, never wanted them. However, my new toy, who may be invited to move in, has a (minor) child. It is not at all that I dislike children, but I really don't want the sort of relationship where sex is restricted to bedrooms at night. And I really don't the sort of relationship where my toy can't wear the things I find interesting around the house.

The child is not my child, of course. The child has a father, and I'm not seeking to usurp his position. So as far as the child is concerned, I am mummy's lover, nothing else. I may discipline the mother, but I shan't discipline the child.

However. Obviously, if she moves in, there are going to have to be compromises. But...

• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing a collar (I'm thinking of one of the nice German industrial metal ones)?
• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing sexy clothes?
• Is it so bad if a child sometimes sees her mother naked?
• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother being kissed, or cuddled?

And after those,

• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets tied up?
• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets spanked?
• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets hit with things?

As Netz has said, it can depend on the child.

At a generalised point, it depends on the AGE of the child. Very young children (under 8's) will struggle with concepts like mummy having a new boyfriend if they're used to seeing daddy with mummy. My housemate's son is 3 and he is absolutely fine with "daddy Richard" because he was very young when his dad and mum split, but such situations need to be explained in a sensitive way.

And on the point of you not disciplining the child, completely the wrong way to go. While they might not be your child, they are still under your care while with you and as such, you are well within your right to discipline the child if they do wrong. I know that may seem wrong, but if there's no respect relationship between you and the child (e.g. the child knows where boundaries lie etc etc) you're going to have behavioural problems all the way down the line.

[/child care worker]

 

[graceanne]

My apologies if I repeat what someone else said, I haven't read through the whole thread.

• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing a collar (I'm thinking of one of the nice German industrial metal ones)?

• 
  
  If she doesn't normally wear collars, then yes. If she's one of those goth people who normally does, then no.
  
  

  • Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing sexy clothes?

  
  Define sexy. Sexy clothes are fine, slutty not so much.
  
  

  • Is it so bad if a child sometimes sees her mother naked?

  
  No. But then it depends on the house situation. If she's raised the child to be uncomfortable with nudity, then it's inappropriate. I've always made myself available to my kids, so that means they walk in on me in the bathroom and the tub and when I'm getting dressed. They think nothing of seeing me naked, and will ask their question/tattle and leave.
  
  

  • Is it so bad if a child sees her mother being kissed, or cuddled?

  
  No, as long as the kissing and cuddling doesn't involve groping.
  
  

  And after those,
  
  

  • At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets tied up?
  • At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets spanked?
  • At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets hit with things?

  
  When the child is ready for this stuff, if ever, they will bring it up to their mom. I, personally, do not want to know those kind of details about my mothers sex life EVER.
  
  

  So help me here. How does one build aspects of BDSM practice into a family life with children? I'm either going to have to find a way to believe this is possible, or else to drop a relationship which looks extremely promising.

  
  You do it by being discreet. You can make your room an off limits place with school age children (with the possible exception of nightmares - in that case make sure your door is locked when you're doing something you don't want to get caught at). Just because the mother isn't wearing a stereo typical collar, doesn't mean you can't find her a collar that's jewelry looking (like a necklace with a key, or a pretty choker), and save the collar looking collar for play time. You can keep your punishments and punishing to the bedroom and after bed time. If you're the in an M/s relationship that means you make all the decisions, then make the decisions, but do so discreetly. (This is more of an issue for her than you - she needs to remember to defer and ask your 'opinion' in everything.
  
  That raises another point. You two need to have the whole 'who makes the decision regarding the child' discussion before you move in together. A lot of M/s relationship like the one you're talking about are clearly defined as 'the master makes all the decisions, unless it's about the child', and you need to decide if that's ok with you. And, if the father is involved, that means you'll frequently be kidless (when they're with their dad) and you have different rules and/or guidelines for those days.
  
  Oh, and invest in some gags for heavy play.
  
  A D/s and/or M/s relationship is very possible with children, it's just more work.
  
  ETA: A discreet collar.

 

[Netzach]

My experience as a kid? What has that to do with anything? The things I did as a kid would get my parents jailed these days! Those were much more liberal days, fifty years ago.

But I certainly knew (in an academic sense) that my parents had a sex-life by the time I was ten, and I certainly saw both of them naked on occasion. Has this left me scarred for life? I don't believe so. Yet to read people up this thread, that amounts to child abuse!

Seeing my parent wander naked across the room to go put on clothes, or even seeing them in a non sexual nudism context - totally no BFD. The moment I might catch wind that mom (or dad or whoever) is in the buff because it's a "rule" imposed by a new sig other, or even just concides with the arrival of a new sig other and can be traced to this fact, you are talking about oranges to apples.

 

[Netzach]

In my opinion there is NEVER a time for a child to know their mother gets tied up, spanked or hit especially as punishment and especially from a man who is not their father.

Well, when your daughter is an adult, a pro dominatrix, you are both hiding what's in the suitcase from Grandma and you have a glass of wine after your grandfathers (her dad's) funeral and it's just you and you're reminiscing, I think those skeletons are ok.

But in general, without *context* it's totally ew.

 

[bruisedangel]

And now for a few words from the mother of the child in question. Seeing that I know my daughter better than anyone else. There are certain questions you've had, that I think I've already answered. I'll leave some of those answers out. (I really need to figure out how cut apart a post, to insert my thoughts between paragraphs).

H'mmm...

This one's tricky. I have no children, never have had, never wanted them. However, my new toy, who may be invited to move in, has a (minor) child. It is not at all that I dislike children, but I really don't want the sort of relationship where sex is restricted to bedrooms at night. And I really don't the sort of relationship where my toy can't wear the things I find interesting around the house.

The child is not my child, of course. The child has a father, and I'm not seeking to usurp his position. So as far as the child is concerned, I am mummy's lover, nothing else. I may discipline the mother, but I shan't discipline the child.

However. Obviously, if she moves in, there are going to have to be compromises. But...

• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing a collar (I'm thinking of one of the nice German industrial metal ones)?
• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing sexy clothes?
• Is it so bad if a child sometimes sees her mother naked?
• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother being kissed, or cuddled?

And after those,

• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets tied up?
• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets spanked?
• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets hit with things?

I mean, obviously, the child must never hear her mother scream or sob (although both my toy and I will want screams and tears more than sometimes). Obviously the child must never see her mother being hit. Obviously the child must grow up to know that women deserve to be treated with as much respect as men. But, surely it's not completely wrong for a school-age child to see any of those things in the first group, and not completely impossible for an adolescent child to know (but not see) those things in the second?

We're thinking about going into this relationship because we both want a fairly no-limits D/s relationship, tending towards M/s. If having a child around the house actually means that what we end up with is a 95% vanilla relationship, with all the BDSM aspects squeezed entirely into the interstices where the child is absent... that needs some very careful thought.

So help me here. How does one build aspects of BDSM practice into a family life with children? I'm either going to have to find a way to believe this is possible, or else to drop a relationship which looks extremely promising.

There will be times that you may need to discipline my child. All I ask from that is that you take measure to be aware as to how I discipline her. You have a fair good idea as to how I've raised her for six years. If I were to move in, she will need to understand that she has boundaries with you. Otherwise, what would stop her from acting out towards me, or you, if she knows you wouldn't say a thing?

Children are amazingly perceptive. They're rather good at discerning the difference between happy, sad, and just about any other emotion there is. At least, mine is. I do believe she would prefer her mother to be happy. Mommy is loads of fun when mommy is happy.

Most of what I've read in response has been very one-sided, the responses based more from a personal standpoint, rather than from an individual, case by case basis. While I think all children need boundaries, I also believe, very highly, that if one isn't careful, those boundaries turn into limits that need tested, and not in a good way. There is very little that is off-limits to my daughter. As far as media goes, there are only certain things which are censored. Mainly, pornography. Besides that, I censor almost nothing from her. I would rather she find out about anything at all with me, when I'm readily accessible to answer any question she might have, rather than leaving things to the imaginings of a child, or, worse yet, let another child answer said question. She has a very basic idea, in the clinical sense, of what sex is. She understands full well as to how children are created. She also understands that adults touch to show affection.

I highly doubt that a collar would throw her for a loop. She's rather used to seeing me wear certain necklaces that no doubt could be mistaken for an everyday collar, as opposed to a play collar. For whatever reason, it tickles her pink to see me dressed in what I deem sexy, and from conversations, we seem to think the same things are. She's seen me naked almost as much as she's seen me clothed. Nudity has never been an issue, nor should it be. The human body isn't something to be ashamed of, and I won't allow for her to think it is. We're sexual creatures at the core. It's sad it isn't more celebrated. (Could well just be the puritanical culture of America, though). Why would it be wrong for her to see her mother cuddled and kissed? Wouldn't it be better for her to know that her mother is loved, and that the love between people shouldn't be hidden? (I'm NOT saying people should have sex in front of children. I do think children should know, and see, affection, though.)

Tied up, spanked, hit...
To me, that would be tantamount to having sex in front of my child. I don't believe she should ever see that. However, there will come a time that she's fully aware of the fact that her mother does have sex. Preferably not until she's in her mid to late teens, although I am realistic enough to know that adolescence and puberty come earlier than a parent would want. I personally think that this is best left as a bridge to be crossed at a later date. You wouldn't tie me up, spank me, or hit me in front of her. There is no reason on earth why she should know about that aspect of my life.

Anyhow, the last thing I want to throw in to this particular area is that there are quite a few things we've spoken about, already. I'm sure there will be more. However, as long as we keep an open field of communication, and there is an understanding that her mental well-being comes before anything else, the only difference that I can see between raising a child in a BDSM relationship, as opposed to a vanilla one, is the modicum of discretion we keep.

My apologies if I repeat what someone else said, I haven't read through the whole thread.



If she doesn't normally wear collars, then yes. If she's one of those goth people who normally does, then no.



Define sexy. Sexy clothes are fine, slutty not so much.



No. But then it depends on the house situation. If she's raised the child to be uncomfortable with nudity, then it's inappropriate. I've always made myself available to my kids, so that means they walk in on me in the bathroom and the tub and when I'm getting dressed. They think nothing of seeing me naked, and will ask their question/tattle and leave.



No, as long as the kissing and cuddling doesn't involve groping.



When the child is ready for this stuff, if ever, they will bring it up to their mom. I, personally, do not want to know those kind of details about my mothers sex life EVER.



You do it by being discreet. You can make your room an off limits place with school age children (with the possible exception of nightmares - in that case make sure your door is locked when you're doing something you don't want to get caught at). Just because the mother isn't wearing a stereo typical collar, doesn't mean you can't find her a collar that's jewelry looking (like a necklace with a key, or a pretty choker), and save the collar looking collar for play time. You can keep your punishments and punishing to the bedroom and after bed time. If you're the in an M/s relationship that means you make all the decisions, then make the decisions, but do so discreetly. (This is more of an issue for her than you - she needs to remember to defer and ask your 'opinion' in everything.

That raises another point. You two need to have the whole 'who makes the decision regarding the child' discussion before you move in together. A lot of M/s relationship like the one you're talking about are clearly defined as 'the master makes all the decisions, unless it's about the child', and you need to decide if that's ok with you. And, if the father is involved, that means you'll frequently be kidless (when they're with their dad) and you have different rules and/or guidelines for those days.

Oh, and invest in some gags for heavy play.

A D/s and/or M/s relationship is very possible with children, it's just more work.

ETA: A discreet collar.

graceanne - Thank you! You've done an excellent job for me, in answering his questions. You're way more to the point than I am.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I'm not an active BDSM practioner nor a mother, but I plan to be both of these one day and will at some point be both of them at once.

Mmmm, same. I'm slightly active, yet childless. I do so hope that I'll have a happy, healthy mix of the two one day. Sometimes I have a hard time reconciling my more extreme fantasies with my white picket fence in the outer burbs ones, but I'll get there.

And thus, I really don't have a lot to offer. My parents didn't discuss sex with us when we were younger. I was never taught that it was dirty or wrong or anything like that, just that it was a private thing between 2 people. As such, we were rather oblivious to their goings on. I think they went too far that way, in my opinion. So I know I'll try harder to be open with my kids, but I also know it'll be a struggle.

I think, so long as they kids know they are loved, looked after, and that it's really ok to ask about anything that they wish to then they should be ok. You just have to be careful about what they might discover that they then want to ask about.

(I really need to figure out how cut apart a post, to insert my thoughts between paragraphs).

I don't know if there's an easier way, but I tend to copy and paste the quote tags around the different sections, then add mine in between.

 

[eastern sun]

Before our children were born, there were very few limits on our sex. We could do pretty much whatever we wanted wherever we wanted whenever we wanted, especially because we owned our own business too.

The arrival of the kids sent huge, huge, huge waves of change - think tsunami - through our relationship.

We do live a BDSM relationship in the margins of a 95% vanilla life (at least as it would appear to an outside observer), but I wouldn't choose to do it more overtly.

My kids have found our ropes and tied each other up. My son began insisting that my daughter call him "master" (and I don't call my husband "master"). My daughter told her horseback riding teacher that "Mommy has a crop." And the teacher responded "I bet she uses it on Daddy." I gave her a wan smile, and kept my mouth shut. (Heed HottieMama's advice. Think of what your child might say to an outsider about what happens at home.)

The worst thing about mixing BDSM and children in my opinion, though, is the emotional volatility it can introduce into the household. There just aren't easy ways to integrate subspace, subdrop, crying and screaming (that are not even directly occurring during play) with nurturing motherhood.

Notice how often your emotions take you for that roller coaster ride when you're in the early and/or intense stages of the relationship.

Kids can handle a certain amount of volatility. But it frightens them and makes them feel insecure. And my daughter recently told me how much it scared her in the middle of the night when she woke up and heard "those sounds you make when Daddy massages you."

There's also a lot of role modeling going on. I have both a son and a daughter, and we have inadvertently taught them that boys don't clean up, girls do. My daughter doesn't much like the "girl" role, and is taking to dress like a boy to avoid it.

All of these things can be addressed as they occur, but monitoring the effects of this relationship on my children is one of the biggest challenges in my life.

And my husband rarely feels like he's getting what he really wants.

 

[StrayKat]

Most of what I've read in response has been very one-sided, the responses based more from a personal standpoint, rather than from an individual, case by case basis.

Very true, but I hope you understand that for some of us the subject of children in BDSM relationship is hard to look at from other than personal standpoint.
I have very developed instinct to protect small children and animals, I can do nothing about it and whenever I see possibility a child might be hurt in some way I have serious problems in thinking cool-headed. I see red signs everywhere then.
It was probably not the question itself but the way it was stated - "I dont have children, I never wanted children but here I come in situation where the child may disturb the way I want to play with my new toy".

Of course you know your child the best, and you will do whatever takes to keep her happy and unscarred. Personally, I would never even discuss a matter like this on public forum, it would be too personal for me and I would consider it private matter between me and him.
I sincerely wish you and your little girl all the best though.

 

[bruisedangel]

Very true, but I hope you understand that for some of us the subject of children in BDSM relationship is hard to look at from other than personal standpoint.
I have very developed instinct to protect small children and animals, I can do nothing about it and whenever I see possibility a child might be hurt in some way I have serious problems in thinking cool-headed. I see red signs everywhere then.
It was probably not the question itself but the way it was stated - "I dont have children, I never wanted children but here I come in situation where the child may disturb the way I want to play with my new toy".

Of course you know your child the best, and you will do whatever takes to keep her happy and unscarred. Personally, I would never even discuss a matter like this on public forum, it would be too personal for me and I would consider it private matter between me and him.
I sincerely wish you and your little girl all the best though.

First, thank you. I wish for the best, as well.
I'm pretty certain that just about anyone on here can agree with me on this. I would do ANYTHING for my child. I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to give my life for her. Now that that's out of the way....

This has been discussed between us, a number of times. There are certain parts of said discussion that I wouldn't think to bring up with anyone. I most likely never would have posted anything on it, if I didn't feel there were certain things that needed some clarification. In reading the way the question was posed, I can understand the thought process behind some of the responses. I seldom speak for other people, but I'm going to. (If I'm wrong, and I'm pretty damned positive that I'm not, let me know). No, he doesn't have children. The reasons for that are his to give, but it has nothing to do with how he feels about children. The question had nothing, whatsoever, to do with him thinking that my daughter would be/become a nuisance. It had everything to do with finding out how other people, who partake in this lifestyle, manage to entertain a fulfilling sex life while raising a child. He can't ask me. I'm less than a novice. I can offer suggestions in theory, nothing in practice. So, while we may have talked the subject until we're blue in the face, there still is an air of wondering how to go about in actuality. I appreciate that he wants to know, and is willing to take measures to find out. The last thing he would ever want is to hurt me (mentally!! I like my psyche intact!) or my daughter. I think it would be devastating, for all three parties involved, to find that the practices he and I indulge in can't be made to work a few years down the road. By that point, there's a strong possibility of my daughter being very attached to him. It would be a poor parenting choice, not only on my part, but on his as well (because as the man living in the house, he would have to come to terms with being seen as a father figure, although not as a replacement to her father), to have a household ripped apart because his needs/my needs aren't being met.

I tend to rant when I get defensive. I felt that there was a bit of an attack going on, and I wanted to clarify, without divulging too many private details, the situation.

 

[eastern sun]

The question had nothing, whatsoever, to do with him thinking that my daughter would be/become a nuisance. It had everything to do with finding out how other people, who partake in this lifestyle, manage to entertain a fulfilling sex life while raising a child.

Take advantage of the time you're alone.

Enjoy and develop the subtle forms of communication that can take place between the two of you.

Recognize and accept the long periods of time in which the child's needs will be more important than yours/his for any number of trivial and profound reasons.

Don't try to have the relationship you would have without a child in the house if there is a child in the house. Recognize and accept that it isn't possible. Take the time instead to develop new practices that fit comfortably into a child's view of their world.

In general, the less discomfort and embarrassment the child feels about sex and sexuality the better.

I'm glad I had a lot of sex before my children were born. And I won't regret when they move into their own lives. This chapter of my life includes them, though. And I have had to change in a number of ways, not just sexually, to meet their needs.

 

[Netzach]

There's no attack. My perspective is "here's what it was like in a blended family with kink and a submissive mom. Here's what the following things would have felt like to me. And here are some pitfalls that must be possible, because my mother ran right into them"

If that's useless, hurrah. Ignore it.

If you are very nudist-y more power to you. I think that's awesome if it's your thing and if it's normalized in your house then there's no real need to ask if it's detrimental or not, it's already not. My points to ponder are in no way puritanical.

 

[BiBunny]

You know, this is just me, but I'd have much rather have known my parents were having sex and enjoying themselves than what they were actually doing, which was hating the sight of one another and either ignoring each other or arguing constantly and trying to get me to take sides. But then I'm weird like that.

 

[graceanne]

graceanne - Thank you! You've done an excellent job for me, in answering his questions. You're way more to the point than I am.

Anytime this question is brought up some people get a little hot under the collar - it's a difficult question.

Myself, I felt that his question was a wise one to question and worry about BEFORE it becomes an issue. I would be more worried if he wasn't asking these questions; I would wonder if he knows what he's getting in to.

That said - you're welcome. I'm generally to the point.

If you are very nudist-y more power to you. I think that's awesome if it's your thing and if it's normalized in your house then there's no real need to ask if it's detrimental or not, it's already not. My points to ponder are in no way puritanical.

You've heard me bitch about this one before, so I'm just quoting you as a reference point.

There is nothing wrong with nudity. We are as God made us. Nudity isn't always about sex. And it's not abusive to be comfortable being nude around your kids, anymore than it's not abusive to NOT be comfortable being nude around kids. My feelings on the issue, and what I always tell people, is go with what you're (generic you) comfortable with, because you have as much right to be comfortable as your kid. Plus, if you're uncomfortable your child/ren will pick up on that and they'll be uncomfortable.

K is not comfortable with nudity. I don't care. The kids know not to walk in on him in the bathroom/bedroom. He doesn't freak out, but he will say "Can I have some privacy?" and send them from the room. (When my daughter was little she thought kids have privates and grown ups have privacy's. LOL) But he's, also, very okay with me being comfortable with being naked. Intellectually he agrees with me on what I believe. When our kids were little they were naked 99% of the time. (The exception being if we were not home.) They still, quite often, sleep naked. They don't even blink at me being naked. Not that I wander the house nude. But I do not care if they come in on me changing. Until K left, and I started letting my son share my bed, I slept naked. (Now I wear a nightgown.) I have been known to wander into the living room in my pants and bra to go through the clean laundry to get a shirt. All I'm teaching my kids is to be comfortable with their bodies and all body types.

That said, I'm a lot more careful when I have guests. I'm a big believer in respecting family dynamics.

 

[Ravenwind]

H'mmm...

• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing a collar?
• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother wearing sexy clothes?
• Is it so bad if a child sometimes sees her mother naked?
• Is it so bad if a child sees her mother being kissed, or cuddled?

And after those,

• Not if it's part of her everyday wear as well. I have a number of chokers that I occasionally wear, so when I wear the 'black ribbon', it's no different from when I wear 'the tight gemmed necklace'. Otherwise, you might want to consider picking up lookalike jewelry to swap around, so wearing 'tight necklaces' aren't a thing of concern.
• Depends on what you consider sexy. My husband and I consider tasteful or elegant outfits as 'sexy', but I wouldn't walk around in my underwear, let alone something more revealing... I am not comfortable enough in my own nudity to do that (and I still have a horrid image burned in my head from seeing my grandmother naked... ew...). And on that note...
• It's up to you two on this one... but I have been the unfortunate recipient of accidentally seeing too many 'old people' (relatively speaking) naked in my youth, and while I wouldn't consider it scarring, the memories still gross me out, and unnerved me knowing 'one day, I'll look like that' (be it as a kid comparing to my parents' age, or now remembering my grandparents').
• Kissed and cuddled? That's an easy one. It was something I grew up around, and I feel it helped strengthen my relationship-making abilities... I occasionally find myself emulating my elders (only realizing it in hindsight). Likewise, my own kids see my Husband and I kissing and cuddling all the time, and so to them it's no big deal. It is something we did from day one, so to them, it was natural. Now, from the perspective of having my dad remarry, as a teen, the initial 'seeing dad hug someone else' was weird and unsettling, and I'm glad that they took their time before being physical around me, but because I had a good relationship with my dad, it was something I easily adjusted to. So, imho, take your time and go slow around the kid, and let her warm up to you, slowly working your way up from merely holding hands around her over time.

• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets tied up?
• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets spanked?
• At what age/stage of development is it OK for the child to know that her mother gets hit with things?

I didn't have the 'horrid epiphany' until I was like 14, and that was merely the concept that 'mom and dad had sex'. I probably would've been scarred for life had I learned about any BDSM activity between them that young. Having been raised in a strictly 50's-vanilla lifestyle, with any 'perversion' highly frowned upon, eventually learning that others act out what I felt only lied within my own head was very surreal.

This is purely my opinion, but I don't think *any* age, while as a minor, is appropriate or wise, not yet anyway. Kids are influenced by the media of the traditional (or traditional single parent) family image... with BDSM being relegated to shock value, for humorous effect, and so on (much as GLBT were in the 90's and earlier), that notion will rub off as well... it could be damaging to her to know what her mom does. Growing up, I had a friend whose mom was lesbian, and he was essentially an outcast because of it. We currently reside in the same sort of niche as the GLBT community did ten or twenty years back- we are acknowledged, but not taken seriously, as there has been no real high-profile media figures to stand up for us.

It's one thing to talk about it from a neutral position right along side the 'birds and the bees' talk, but until it's 'safe to come out of the closet' as individuals, something like that might best wait until adulthood (where it only bears an 'eww, too much info' factor, instead of a 'my life is over' factor).

We're thinking about going into this relationship because we both want a fairly no-limits D/s relationship, tending towards M/s. If having a child around the house actually means that what we end up with is a 95% vanilla relationship, with all the BDSM aspects squeezed entirely into the interstices where the child is absent... that needs some very careful thought.

So help me here. How does one build aspects of BDSM practice into a family life with children? I'm either going to have to find a way to believe this is possible, or else to drop a relationship which looks extremely promising.

It is very possible. But you have to refine what you do and say in a way that appears vanilla. I live in a *very* extended family, so I have not just my own kids, but everyone else in the household (including a very prudish mom-in-law), to keep my activities from. Symbols and double meanings play a large part.

• For example, instead of using the terms "Master" and "slave", using first names to represent "I command/I obey" whereas pet names like 'dear' or 'honey' identify "Do me a favor?/Sure!" (akin to the notion of using a child's first, middle, and last name to show you're being serious). Or, similarly, choose specific pet names ("My Dear/sweetheart" still has the M/s or D/s connotation there).
• Instead of a full-blown collar for everyday wear (unless chokers or collars *are* everyday wear), a simple necklace with a locket or padlock charm is much more discreet, but holds the same significance of 'you are bound, and I bear the key'.
• Arrange the furniture in a way where if she "wants to sit next to you", sitting on the floor at your feet is more convenient than sitting in the nearby chair (say, the two are separated by an endtable covered in stuff that can be knocked over). Throw pillows also add to the 'natural' feel of sitting on the floor.
• Unspoken gestures are also good... every 'normal' motion done 'in a certain way' has an immediate and known response. A touch on the cheek ending on the chin being 'I beg of you', an upturned hand being 'Get me this', or whatever works for you two.
• Every command, and every act of obedience, appears to stem from 'what is good' and 'selflessness', both out of love, as opposed to play. It becomes a sense of 'good citizenship', as opposed to a sense of 'being bullied' (kid's perspective, mind you)
• Hardware becomes 'natural furnishings'. The rope used to tie her up, would be the same 'rope in the garage used to tie up the craft supplies'. The ring on the ceiling meant to hold her weight is the same ring that holds a large hanging potted plant. The wall restraints hold up decorative wall hangings, and so on. Be creative! When questions arise, "I bought the wrong size hooks, but thought it looked nice anyway"... they'll question your taste in furnishings, instead of your taste in sex.
• As to the screams and sobs... control and self-control from both parties, a high-quality pillow, and a TV. It is very possible to scream without allowing yourself to make much of a sound at all, but you have to 'relearn' to do it consistently. Sobs are a different story... I've not quite learned how to do that quietly... and that's where the pillow comes in. It also helps to have the TV on to provide background noise.
• As to sexy clothes, refine your own tastes as to what 'sexy' is. I have the most unrevealing set of dress clothes, yet because it is in severe contrast to my everyday wear, my Husband finds it extremely sexy, even as much as the 'stuff in my top drawer' are to him. Also, consider 'replacements'... For example, while a 'schoolgirl uniform' for roleplay would be too much in the eyes of a kid, a tight collegiate t-shirt, low-cut jeans, and a perky hairstyle might invoke the same thoughts in you, but still remain 'normal' in appearance. Instead of black leather restraints, braided brown leather bracelets make a trendy fashion statement, but can still evoke the feeling and emotions of 'flesh on flesh'. Also, take *full* advantage of Halloween- the most unbelievable of outfits are nothing short of 'an amazing costume', and your kid wouldn't bat an eye at it. (Just add bat wings to a catsuit or leather, and you have a 'demon' costume.)

Finally, have a backup plan for everything. Make a logical explanation for anything. Kids have a 'sex radar'... either right after you start, or right before you finish, it 'goes off', and they need something to drink, or want to tell you something important about the show they watched earlier. "Wrestling" only works for so many years before you have to come up with new excuses as you try new things.

 

[intothewoods]

bruised - I think you and Simon have received some excellent advice. How old is your daughter? Perhaps I missed this before, but I didn't see it.

Wearing "sexy clothes" (depending on what that means) around a two year old is different than a 13 year old. The thirteen year old might be horrified and embarassed; the two year old will have no clue.

I personally have a sense of privacy. I don't share my every last thought with my child, sexual or not. There is a difference, however, between privacy and secrecy/shame. There are things that are personal to me, but I don't act like I've got some terrible bad thing I'm hiding.