Force . . . TAKING Control

[Ghost's amaris]

seri,

That is true each persons level of submissions is different.

But I can say with Ghost that he is not out for just his pleasure i know that is how it sort of came across but he is out for our joint pleasure. Just sometimes I do things that at first i dont want to do until we haave done it or started it and then I am glad i did it for it pleasured him and me.

Master has never just looked out for himself he is always looking out for His pleasure and mine as he looks out for me all around.

Ghost amaris

 

[Red Menace]

Hmm..interesting series of post here. I thought I would put MY couple of cents in on the subject. I have told amaris on numerous occasions that this is NOT Burger King...you get it MY way or not at all. there are many MANY things that I do that she doesn't understand what it is or WHY I am doing it, but in the end she understands.

I do things that she don't like for good reason. I thought that a submissive's goal in life was to please her Dom/Master. Seems to me like someone isn't feeling that way. that they should be doing things for THEIR pleasure. Personally I have changed the rules as we go along with amaris. I mean if I was to demand that she comply with each and every demand and rule I have from the beginning I doubt she would have even DARED to try!

I mean if I was to have told her from the get go that she was to kneel before me and address me only as Master from the beginning I doubt she would be here.

I have asked her to do things and done things that she REALLY didn't want to do, but the reasons were very clear to me. There was a goal behind each and everything I have done.

I am going to go out on a limb here and wonder just HOW sincere someone REALLY is when they say they are submissive.

You sound just like the Master I'm with. And He's quickly changing my perceptions of who I am and what I need and how to get it. I don't think He would ever "take" me but He has this very persuasive way of convincing me I want what He wants. The rewards of submitting to Him far outweigh whatever fears or doubts I may have. I'm not even sure that to truly be taken is compatable with submission. Doesn't submitting imply consent while taking something may go against someone's will? Therefore making a role-playing "taken" scene consensual, in essence?

I'm sure some people do wind up in situations where they are taken or forced to bend to someone else's will. Wether or not that's abuse could possibly be determined only by knowing if the "victim" enjoyed it in the end.

 

[Ghost's amaris]

Edited

Wrong User name used.

Ghost's amaris

 

[Ghost_of_Winter]

Lemme try this again.....

Hmm..PERHAPS I should say it AGAIN...I said it was a GENERAL post not towards you Rubyfruit. If you feel that it describes you then so be it. I was NOT the one saying or even insinuating that. I said in GENERAL....that means that if you were to talk about an overall approach.

If you would READ the post you would see that it NEVER mentioned a name or even was directed towards anyone, yet you feel that it was aimed at you. Sorry to dissapoint you, but it was just a twist of fate that my post was posted right after yours...nothing more nothing less.

(it is HELL when you have numerous computers that you bounce between while online....)

 

[~Dream~]

Re:Ghost

Rubyfruit I was making a general post there....but in MY opinion if someone decides as a subnmissive that they will do something for their OWN pleasure rather than for their Dom/Master then you have to wonder at their sincerity

______________________
While I agree with you and you are entitled to Your opinion and all that ,it is also VERY important to understand that submissives NEED to both be HEARD & Understood as we are human beings with feelings and very REAL needs ourselves... it is our pleasure to serve our Masters and if it ever ceases to be ,just that ,a PLEASURE ,then something may be seriously WRONG somewhere ,and in this equation ,I see 2 people who could possibly be at fault ,not just one at all.
Submissives are NOT doormats,we DO have feelings entirely seperate from that of our Dom,if HE is indeed a Dom of any kind of quality or substance,such as my Master ,then He will take the time and use alot of patience and understanding with His submissive and show Her /Him that He is capable of GOOD leadership skills that will put everything back on track... sometimes true as it may be ,the submissive may indeeed just need to look inside themselves for the answer and other times just as often,the mistake may have very well ben made by the Dominant who after all is NOT perfect either..JMHO and I DO own it Just because sometimes submissives ,especially NEW ones do struggle and make mistakes does NOT make them any less SINCERE about submitting...Rules should be CONSISTENT ,or trouble is surely to follow,confusion ,anger and overwhelmingness set in just as for a child when they are learning something new... thank-you for your post

 

[~Dream~]

Questions:...

1. Do you feel that a dom/me can force a submissive to submit?

**If there is FORCE involved there is NO submission ,period,submitting to someone else ,just as I do to God is a CHOICE I make , a "WILLING One' not something done against my will for where would the BEAUTY of it be then?


2. Do you feel that this is just a fantasy, and role-play is the only way in to satisfy this desire?


**For me being 'forced is only in my sexual play,I find it highly erotic,however if someone THINKS they will FORCE me to do ANYTHING outside the bedroom,then they will get a very BIG shock indeed>I aim to please ,but it will ALWAYS be my CHOICE whether or not to do so,we are NOT animals,but humans.. I will try my very best to take care of all of my Master's needs 1st and do it to the BEST of my ability,I feel He knows that also..I sure hope He does .. if He ever expects MORE than I am able to give ,then we WILL have problems as anyone else would too.


3. Are there some types of dom/me and subs who really live this way, irl?

**yes I am sure there are ,different strokes for different folks and all that

4. Is this just another form of abuse with bdsm used as a cover?
*IT'S ONLY ABUSE if one of the partners does not consent to it ,period
JMO

 

[lillum]

In our case my man is a natrual Dom and his job is to dominate and safely control me and our relationship. I am a natrual sub it makes me feel whole and have been looking for the right man for a long time that I can let go with.I have finally found my true freedom in my submissiom to this man.We have a wonderful D/s relationship that goes beyond the bedroom walls.I am not a doormat and he is not a tyrant we treat each other with loving respect.We always dicuss important things and he values my input,but his word is final.When he asks something of me I am obedient as I feel I should be he is a very wise man and I can give of myself 100%.He not only wants my total obeidenice but wants to bring me more happiness than I've ever had,so of course I submit to him in what ever it is he asks it's only for my well being and happiness.I find it very hard to express my feelings on the computer,but I am gatting better at it.Thanks for letting me ramble...lillum

 

[Ghost's amaris]

In our case my man is a natrual Dom and his job is to dominate and safely control me and our relationship. I am a natrual sub it makes me feel whole and have been looking for the right man for a long time that I can let go with.I have finally found my true freedom in my submissiom to this man.We have a wonderful D/s relationship that goes beyond the bedroom walls.I am not a doormat and he is not a tyrant we treat each other with loving respect.We always dicuss important things and he values my input,but his word is final.When he asks something of me I am obedient as I feel I should be he is a very wise man and I can give of myself 100%.He not only wants my total obeidenice but wants to bring me more happiness than I've ever had,so of course I submit to him in what ever it is he asks it's only for my well being and happiness.I find it very hard to express my feelings on the computer,but I am gatting better at it.Thanks for letting me ramble...lillum

That is what Ghost_of_Winter and myself were gettign at lillum

We just didnt word it very well.

Ghost's amaris

 

[MsWorthy]

Thank you for responding, everyone.

This is an interesting discussion.


Another question for discussion.

I have heard this point of view from a few doms:

"Submitting to force is a contradiction in terms. Since submission is yielding, a submissive cannot be forced."

What do you think about this argument?

 

[artful]

MsW

"Submitting to force is a contradiction in terms. Since submission is yielding, a submissive cannot be forced."

What do you think about this argument?

I wouldn't ARGUE it either way. I feel it is a matter of *semantics*. *Pressure* versus *Force*.
It is the *yielding* I search for,...undue FORCE, (emotional or physical)=Too much PRESSURE.

When THAT happens,...it is a sure sign the relationship has slipped from BDSM to ABUSE. It is the Dom/mes responsibility to ensure this doesn't happen.

Edge play can easily go awry, if one is not careful,...and I suspect many a sub has been broken in just this manner.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[~Dream~]

i agree about "semantics'

If somebody "Forces me to do something "against my will" it IS abuse ,plaiN,pure ,and simple,in my eyes

However,If my SO "Forces me for example to "orally please Him ",and I AM agreeeable to it(sexually) then I have given consent and am willing or submiitting" to it .. I cannot understand putting Submitting to "force in the same context except like that..

I would NOT yield to Physical Force ,for example,unless it was the above example....the "bondage etc ,I Experience with Master is an agreed upon thing for another example...hope thats not too confusing..

 

[Charlotte K.]

Hey I just thought I'd take this time to introduce my self.

I'm Charlotte K. and these are my ideas on your questions. Which in fact I have given much thought to. I am currently in a relationship with my sub. It started from us being very young actually, I was 15 and she was older at 19.

~I hope it's ok to post that here ~

As for taking my submissive kitten with 'force' if you mean simply holding on to her leash and with out asking her drag her between my legs then yes, if you mean raping her then no.

She has told me one many occasions, and this always warms my heart because it has been proven to be true, that she would never leave my side through anything.

One night we were talking and I expressed my views on beating her with extra force when she deliberately over stepped her boundaries.

She then expressed that although she did not 'enjoy' pain, that the thought of blood dripping down from were the skin was broken from an extra hard lash would make her all the more willing to scream later on as she was doing then but in pleasure.

We however smiled and knew it would never come to that. We don't do the extreme beating we stick to wax and warm chocolate syrup.

As for the argument of submissive and force being a contradiction, perhaps that is so but I really have no view on it. I have had my 'kitten' close to me and as my sub from late adolescence. I matured into this realm because we found out that she was submissive and I was dominant. It seemed right.

I don't have to force my sub to do anything. In a way she my 'Mistress' too because she knows that if she is good and bats those cute eyelids and mews so invitingly I will do my utmost best to bring her pleasure.

There are tears in my eyes now because I realize from these questions what a special bond my kitten and I have.

It would never be rape between us. No matter what I would do to try to force her, she would do it so willingly it would not seem like force at all.

I always sometimes have to instruct her to do certain things that she other wise would not do and she with out question will say "Yes Mistress", if there is a serious complaint with it she'll kneel before me and ask permission to talk about it, then I listen and we rationalize it and the final decision is mine but I always take her views into consideration as a top priority.

Her happiness is very important to me, as mine is to her.

Well there you go that is my story an my views...

~Gulp. Don’t be harsh! ~

 

[NemoAlia]

How could anyone be harsh in response to such a beautiful story, Charlotte? Welcome to the BDSM forum! Thank you for sharing your experiences. I, for one, am looking forward to reading more of your posts.

 

[P. B. Walker]

Thank you for responding, everyone.

This is an interesting discussion.


Another question for discussion.

I have heard this point of view from a few doms:

"Submitting to force is a contradiction in terms. Since submission is yielding, a submissive cannot be forced."

What do you think about this argument?

Another tough question. I will probably be the dissenting viewpoint here. I think submission can be forced. Submission is defined as the act of giving in to the authority, power, or desires of another. It doesn't say how you give in. Whatever your thought processes are for submitting, you still submit. I can freely submit to an authority, or they can convince me to submit to their authority. In the end, I still submit. It doesn't necessarily have to be freely and with no reservations.

To me you can freely and without reservations submit to someone, or you can with reservations, submit to someone. To make an example.... if a man comes up to you with a gun and says "submit to do this (whatever "this" is)". You say no, go fuck yourself. You don't submit. Then he turns the gun on your best friend/sister/brother/mom/dad/significant other and says "Submit to do this". And you do it. You have submitted, but under force. or you could say "fuck off" and they kill that person. Then they move on to shoving the bamboo sticks under your fingernails. Ultimately, they will make you submit.... nobody is impervious to torture.

Yeah that's a weird example, but I think it spells out my point. Submission doesn't necessarily mean freely giving of yourself.

So, respectfully, I disagree with that statement.

PBW

 

[catalina_francisco]

Interesting bump?

 

[Bandit58]

Another tough question. I will probably be the dissenting viewpoint here. I think submission can be forced. Submission is defined as the act of giving in to the authority, power, or desires of another. It doesn't say how you give in. Whatever your thought processes are for submitting, you still submit. I can freely submit to an authority, or they can convince me to submit to their authority. In the end, I still submit. It doesn't necessarily have to be freely and with no reservations.

<snip>
PBW

This is probably going to come out a bit muddled, so bear with me.....

I was married for over 20 years. I now know (after doing lots of reading) that I am a natural submissive. My husband during the marriage was a bully, not physically but emotionally. I "submitted" to him, because I feared the guilt trips and emotional blackmail he would lay on me if I didn't. We lived in a small rural community and I was trying to fit in and be "normal". My self esteem and self confidence was a big fat zero.....I hated my life but didn't think there was any way out of it.

When I think back now.....I wonder how I could have stood it for so long. I had two children and they were the main reason I stayed, but when the eldest left for university it was another year before I somehow got up the courage to stand up to him and leave. Even now when I have to have any contact with him at all, I am uncomfortable to say the least.

Countless times I let him have sex with me, even though I hated it. He blamed me, told me I was frigid. Never mind that it was five minutes of foreplay (if that), climb on and get his rocks off and go to sleep He expected me to be available for anything, I didn't have a life apart from him and the kids.

Forced submission? In a way. Abuse? Definitely. I wasn't held down and forced to have sex, but the emotional blackmail was such that I might as well have been.

Oh, and frigid? No how no way

 

[catalina_francisco]

This is probably going to come out a bit muddled, so bear with me.....

I was married for over 20 years. I now know (after doing lots of reading) that I am a natural submissive. My husband during the marriage was a bully, not physically but emotionally. I "submitted" to him, because I feared the guilt trips and emotional blackmail he would lay on me if I didn't. We lived in a small rural community and I was trying to fit in and be "normal". My self esteem and self confidence was a big fat zero.....I hated my life but didn't think there was any way out of it.

When I think back now.....I wonder how I could have stood it for so long. I had two children and they were the main reason I stayed, but when the eldest left for university it was another year before I somehow got up the courage to stand up to him and leave. Even now when I have to have any contact with him at all, I am uncomfortable to say the least.

Countless times I let him have sex with me, even though I hated it. He blamed me, told me I was frigid. Never mind that it was five minutes of foreplay (if that), climb on and get his rocks off and go to sleep He expected me to be available for anything, I didn't have a life apart from him and the kids.

Forced submission? In a way. Abuse? Definitely. I wasn't held down and forced to have sex, but the emotional blackmail was such that I might as well have been.

Oh, and frigid? No how no way

I think from the perspective of one who has experienced both physical and emotional/psychological, those mind games that create the intimidation, emotional blackmail, self hatred, are much more difficult to overcome and move beyond to a point where your power is restored 100%. It si not impossible, but there are unexpected moments when you find it is not as far away in the distant past as you sometimes think. I am pleased for you Bandit that you have found one who can help you find a much nicer reality, and dispel those illusions of frigidity. Takes a strong and special person to even begin to understand.

Catalina

 

[Bandit58]

I think from the perspective of one who has experienced both physical and emotional/psychological, those mind games that create the intimidation, emotional blackmail, self hatred, are much more difficult to overcome and move beyond to a point where your power is restored 100%. It si not impossible, but there are unexpected moments when you find it is not as far away in the distant past as you sometimes think. I am pleased for you Bandit that you have found one who can help you find a much nicer reality, and dispel those illusions of frigidity. Takes a strong and special person to even begin to understand.

Catalina

Yes, those unexpected moments are the worst. A couple of days ago something happened which "flashed" me back to before, and upset me a bit.....but Master was with me and all was ok. He has been in the hospital for a few days and I have been alone at nights, and I have found the old sleep pattern returning, plus I wake with a pounding heart and a feeling of dread. But He is home now and all is right with the world again

 

[catalina_francisco]

Yes, those unexpected moments are the worst. A couple of days ago something happened which "flashed" me back to before, and upset me a bit.....but Master was with me and all was ok. He has been in the hospital for a few days and I have been alone at nights, and I have found the old sleep pattern returning, plus I wake with a pounding heart and a feeling of dread. But He is home now and all is right with the world again

Sorry to hear you have been going through that, and that he has been in hospital....give him my love and best wishes and remember you can PM anytime you need to just offload or talk.

Catalina