Forced submission

[Recidiva]

it's about boundaries to me. i like to push them and have mine pushed. i like the endorphins, the weak knees, the powerplay. a partner without this inherent drive ends up being too "nice" for me and boredom ensues.

Okay, just for hypothetical's sake. Boundaries means they're defined. Can you give me an example of what you'd like pushed?

For me my boundaries are in place 'cause beyond a certain point there be dragons. Not their dragons. My dragons. I'm the scariest person I know and I'd prefer to protect people from me.

Are you not scary?

 

[RJMasters]

Nope, sorry, that's not a distinction to me. Still rape.

I'm not advocating it here ok. I just want to discuss it. I want to discuss why it has high erotic value attached to it.

I know that many have expressed having rape type fantasies from the pyl point of view. So I think its useless to deny the appeal of it from that angle. However what is of interest to me is the PYL pov. It takes a bit of a different psyche to have a rape-type fantsy. Not being raped but doing the raping from within the box of consent but also with a high degree of beleivability. It is as hot for the PLY, not just the pyl.

The problem. The psyche of the PYL to do something like this, is intermingled with that part of them that may be sadistic and dominant. Seems like a no brainer statement to make that conclusion, however what is hiding in the background is how that may bleed over from a consentual scene session into the relationship in how one mgiht exercise their dominance.

Example: pyl secretly wants to be force onto his/her knees. PYL says get on your knees, and pyl refuses. PYL grabs pyl by neck and forces him/her down upon their knees. Result? pyl is now dripping wet at this aggressive display and being forced to submit. PYL feels a surge of rush. But the question...where does it stop? Where is the line? How realistic to live this on a relationship level?

Perhaps the amount of sammy is in direct purpotion of forced submission.

The dominant faces two choices...

Do nothing and not force submission...what does that say of such dominant?

Force submission...what does that say about the dominant?

Does force submission take palce? yes. How often? I don't know. Is it good or bad? I don't know. In the give and take in any relationship, there are these moments that are outside a scene.

How about emotional-mental black-mail? Mental forced submission. PYL decides not to give any attention until pyl obeys or submits to their wishes or desire. Something which has also been said to be used as a form of punishment and recommended by many on this forum to others in how to handle a wayward pyl.

About the best I can do to describe kinda what I am looking at. I'm hoping some of you out there get it and can provide some input.

 

[Hester]

Okay, just for hypothetical's sake. Boundaries means they're defined. Can you give me an example of what you'd like pushed?

For me my boundaries are in place 'cause beyond a certain point there be dragons. Not their dragons. My dragons. I'm the scariest person I know and I'd prefer to protect people from me.

Are you not scary?

i can PM it to you if you are really interested. i'm not comfortable putting something like that up for public consumption.

of course i'm scary, it's one of my strongest defense mechanisms. which is why i want someone who will bust through it.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm not advocating it here ok. I just want to discuss it. I want to discuss why it has high erotic value attached to it.

I know that many have expressed having rape type fantasies from the pyl point of view. So I think its useless to deny the appeal of it from that angle. However what is of interest to me is the PYL pov. It takes a bit of a different psyche to have a rape-type fantsy. Not being raped but doing the raping from within the box of consent but also with a high degree of beleivability. It is as hot for the PLY, not just the pyl.

The problem. The psyche of the PYL to do something like this, is intermingled with that part of them that may be sadistic and dominant. Seems like a no brainer statement to make that conclusion, however what is hiding in the background is how that may bleed over from a consentual scene session into the relationship in how one mgiht exercise their dominance.

Example: pyl secretly wants to be force onto his/her knees. PYL says get on your knees, and pyl refuses. PYL grabs pyl by neck and forces him/her down upon their knees. Result? pyl is now dripping wet at this aggressive display and being forced to submit. PYL feels a surge of rush. But the question...where does it stop? Where is the line? How realistic to live this on a relationship level?

Perhaps the amount of sammy is in direct purpotion of forced submission.

The dominant faces two choices...

Do nothing and not force submission...what does that say of such dominant?

Force submission...what does that say about the dominant?

Does force submission take palce? yes. How often? I don't know. Is it good or bad? I don't know. In the give and take in any relationship, there are these moments that are outside a scene.

How about emotional-mental black-mail? Mental forced submission. PYL decides not to give any attention until pyl obeys or submits to their wishes or desire. Something which has also been said to be used as a form of punishment and recommended by many on this forum to others in how to handle a wayward pyl.

About the best I can do to describe kinda what I am looking at. I'm hoping some of you out there get it and can provide some input.

Okay, first...I think most of this can be covered in consensual roleplay. Wanting to go past that tends to be just a ramping up thing that wants more and more and that tends to be a sign of an addiction to something, no a wise use of it.

Second. Rape fantasies are hot. However, when I have them, I have to say, I'm seeing the thing as the rapist and not the rapee. Not something I ever want to experience. I really did do a no-holds-barred roleplay of this once. I was the raped. So I do know whereof, somewhat. Certainly an enlightening experience, or an endarkening, however you want to describe it. Someone who went there forcibly, though, I'd snap their neck.

Also, I'm not a play defiant person. If I'm defiant I'm fucking defiant and forcing me into something is only going to make me think you're an ass and have issues you can't work out unless you violate. If I'm defiant I have a good god damned reason. No respect for someone who can't respect/overcome that within the consent rules.

So for me my boundaries are non-negotiable, because they're mine. Jumping the fence or busting it down only means you can't get me to agree to do it, which to me means you don't deserve said thing.

Getting me to agree is the whole point, I'd never do without that.

 

[RJMasters]

Hmm, corrupting someone though still does not equate to forced submission, just presenting something they might find irresistable even though they never expected it to be so. As to forced submission, are you referring to times when with your SO's consent you use force to get them to submit to something (usually somehting they cannot do easily without a little persuasion of one sort or another being employed) more so than meaning you are forcing them to submit in general RJ?

Catalina

Yes, you, RR, Pure seem to be getting where I am going with this, and hester is hinting that she does.

The quandry is this...the forcing takes place within the box of consent...but I can see how this would slip out of consent easy. Attaching this to the way one approaches dominating another can be just what the doctor ordered in the pushing one out of their comfort zones, but it can also be a delusional fantasy of a Dominant...with a false perception of what it means to dominate another.

I don't want to be the latter, but I find as I think on this issue that they seem to converge along the same lines alot...and so i'm asking for help in sorting my thoughts.

 

[Recidiva]

i can PM it to you if you are really interested. i'm not comfortable putting something like that up for public consumption.

of course i'm scary, it's one of my strongest defense mechanisms. which is why i want someone who will bust through it.

'course I am

And I won't post this to my blog, I promise *crosses her heart*

 

[Hester]

Yes, you, RR, Pure seem to be getting where I am going with this, and hester is hinting that she does.

The quandry is this...the forcing takes place within the box of consent...but I can see how this would slip out of consent easy. Attaching this to the way one approaches dominating another can be just what the doctor ordered in the pushing one out of their comfort zones, but it can also be a delusional fantasy of a Dominant...with a false perception of what it means to dominate another.

I don't want to be the latter, but I find as I think on this issue that they seem to converge along the same lines alot...and so i'm asking for help in sorting my thoughts.

it takes communication, intuition, and a lot of time to finesse. that said, i've never fully experienced it like i want to so for all intents and purposes i'm talking out my ass.

 

[rosco rathbone]

About the best I can do to describe kinda what I am looking at. I'm hoping some of you out there get it and can provide some input.

I know exactly what you are talking about.

I get freaked out by my urges too. Part of me is a real rapist. Luckily, that part is counterbalanced by a massive indurated superego.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Seems to me you've drifted back to roleplay and consent between two adults, a little rough sex can be great fun, even result in a welt or bruise (or two)

But in a healthy relationship it is still consenual (even if unexpected )

Ummm, didn't you read where I mentioned consent? For us roleplay is not part of our life. That being said, it is possible to give consent to be forced to do something you cannot do without force of one sort or another...believe me, it is far removed from roleplay because it actually happens for real, not play acted as how it might be if it really happened without actually doing the real deal.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

it takes communication, intuition, and a lot of time to finesse. that said, i've never fully experienced it like i want to so for all intents and purposes i'm talking out my ass.

Gets this mental image of Hester mimicing Ace Ventura.

There's an idea for your one thread RR. Make the submissive bend over and animate the butt cheeks when ever speaking for a day. lol

 

[catalina_francisco]

Yes, you, RR, Pure seem to be getting where I am going with this, and hester is hinting that she does.

The quandry is this...the forcing takes place within the box of consent...but I can see how this would slip out of consent easy. Attaching this to the way one approaches dominating another can be just what the doctor ordered in the pushing one out of their comfort zones, but it can also be a delusional fantasy of a Dominant...with a false perception of what it means to dominate another.

I don't want to be the latter, but I find as I think on this issue that they seem to converge along the same lines alot...and so i'm asking for help in sorting my thoughts.

OK, figured that was what you meant. I think from our POV it can exist in a stable relationship where both people know each other very well, and also take responsibility for any outcomes, both positive and negative. Despite all that, I believe it can be tricky for both PYL's and pyl's smply because there is always going to be that time when something is going on for the pyl that may not be immediately evident to them and/or the PYL.

I have to admit there are areas we intend to go into and are working on which as much as I would like I cannot just fall to my knees and do...I have asked him to help by choosing the time and forcing me into submitting to them. While I am consenting (consent is a non issue for us as you know anyway), it is far from the role play some suggest this form of forced submission is. It becomes a matter of wills being pitted against each other, and about forcing what one hopes for no matter how much it may repusle or scare them on other levels...it certainly is not about assuming a role for an hour or 2 then packing it all away and having a laugh about how much fun it was.

LOL, given that, on some perverse and depraved level, I imagine I will find each and every one a turn on, though I also know at times I will struggle with demons they may call forth. As you say, it is for those reasons you need as a PYL to feel very secure with what you are doing and why. I also think you need to be prepared that the immediate outcome, depending on the activity, may not always be positive but in time and or passing of time may become more so.

Catalina

 

[rosco rathbone]

Ummm, didn't you read where I mentioned consent? For us roleplay is not part of our life. That being said, it is possible to give consent to be forced to do something you cannot do without force of one sort or another...believe me, it is far removed from roleplay because it actually happens for real, not play acted as how it might be if it really happened without actually doing the real deal.

Catalina

Right on.

At some point, one person is saying to the other---I trust you, I might not like where you are taking this, but I trust you.

 

[Recidiva]

Right on.

At some point, one person is saying to the other---I trust you, I might not like where you are taking this, but I trust you.

Well, that I get.

Totally.

Maybe I'm too trusting and eager and I go along with every damned thing.

That's probably it.

 

[BLACK BART]

Ummm, didn't you read where I mentioned consent? For us roleplay is not part of our life. That being said, it is possible to give consent to be forced to do something you cannot do without force of one sort or another...believe me, it is far removed from roleplay because it actually happens for real, not play acted as how it might be if it really happened without actually doing the real deal.

Catalina

Sure enough I read it.

"Forced" is the word I'm hung up on. Trust is a basic part of any relationship...or lifestyle...as you've pointed out. No slighting intended I was as several others here are saying there is a thin line between fun and harmful behavior.


To be "Forced" as in against your will...operates outside of the trust I'd assume exists in a relationship...

To be pushed to another level in a lifestyle that condones it seems to be an entirely different thing.

My humble (if not slightly narrow) veiwpoint, all two cents woth...

 

[RJMasters]

OK, figured that was what you meant. I think from our POV it can exist in a stable relationship where both people know each other very well, and also take responsibility for any outcomes, both positive and negative. Despite all that, I believe it can be tricky for both PYL's and pyl's smply because there is always going to be that time when something is going on for the pyl that may not be immediately evident to them and/or the PYL.

I have to admit there are areas we intend to go into and are working on which as much as I would like I cannot just fall to my knees and do...I have asked him to help by choosing the time and forcing me into submitting to them. While I am consenting (consent is a non issue for us as you know anyway), it is far from the role play some suggest this form of forced submission is. It becomes a matter of wills being pitted against each other, and about forcing what one hopes for no matter how much it may repusle or scare them on other levels...it certainly is not about assuming a role for an hour or 2 then packing it all away and having a laugh about how much fun it was.

LOL, given that, on some perverse and depraved level, I imagine I will find each and every one a turn on, though I also know at times I will struggle with demons they may call forth. As you say, it is for those reasons you need as a PYL to feel very secure with what you are doing and why. I also think you need to be prepared that the immediate outcome, depending on the activity, may not always be positive but in time and or passing of time may become more so.

Catalina

Thank you. This isn't hitting the bullseye...It is the bullseye.
X 100

I appreciated how you brought up the fact that you would ask for help in somethings.

I have asked him to help by choosing the time and forcing me into submitting to them.

This would seem to be a more clear or less confusing way than closed lipped or via sammy.

Accepting the positive doesn't seem to be much of an issue, but the negative sometimes can through me in a thousand differnt directions at once. Much like a barge running aground unexpectedly.

Your post meant alot to me thanks

 

[Kajira Callista]

Right on.

At some point, one person is saying to the other---I trust you, I might not like where you are taking this, but I trust you.

sometimes in not liking it they are actually loving it also

 

[Hester]

sometimes in not liking it they are actually loving it also

or sometimes it's not about liking or loving but simply a matter of need

 

[Recidiva]

Okay, then why doesn't someone just say...

"Hey, wanna rape me?"

Is this hard?

 

[Kajira Callista]

Okay, then why doesn't someone just say...

"Hey, wanna rape me?"

Is this hard?

maybe they dont want to be raped...and then when it is done they feel differently? (im only using this as an example...im in no way saying all people enjoy rape)

 

[RJMasters]

Right on.

At some point, one person is saying to the other---I trust you, I might not like where you are taking this, but I trust you.

Agreed...

Now throw in a woops from the Dominant...meltdown ensues...suddenly back peddling like a mofo....come to all stop. Then try to regain some kind of footing of a confident-ual nature just to be willing to take another step. That's when they shine the most, when they wait for you to take the lead again. That's when you grow. That's when trust in them deepens. And when you do take that next step, that when their faith deepens in you.

 

[Recidiva]

maybe they dont want to be raped...and then when it is done they feel differently? (im only using this as an example...im in no way saying all people enjoy rape)

Okay, well, for the people wanting to force something, would a blanket statement work?

"I want you to let me do this. I want to see how far I can go."

Or does that ruin it?

I'm trying to grasp what it means here to ride a boundary without ruining trust, mostly what I'm getting is either the person having their boundaries tested can't clarify their needs, or the person wanting to test the boundaries isn't secure about crossing over them within consent format.

I'm assuming "boundary" also, here is something you clearly stated you didn't want.

Are other people interpreting boundary to me "unexplored and undiscussed before this point"

 

[RJMasters]

Okay, well, for the people wanting to force something, would a blanket statement work?

"I want you to let me do this. I want to see how far I can go."

Or does that ruin it?

I'm trying to grasp what it means here to ride a boundary without ruining trust, mostly what I'm getting is either the person having their boundaries tested can't clarify their needs, or the person wanting to test the boundaries isn't secure about crossing over them within consent format.

I'm assuming "boundary" also, here is something you clearly stated you didn't want.

Are other people interpreting boundary to me "unexplored and undiscussed before this point"

Welcome to the conversation.

 

[RJMasters]

I'm trying to grasp what it means here to ride a boundary without ruining trust, mostly what I'm getting is either the person having their boundaries tested can't clarify their needs, or the person wanting to test the boundaries isn't secure about crossing over them within consent format.

When you say this, you are beginning to see just a few facets of what I am wanting to discuss here. Its not cut and dry no matter how you want to look at it.

It touches so many things. Real things, real life, real submission, real control, real confidence, real commitment and determination. This is why I made a distinction between the scene and the relationship. Sure this could be negotiated in a scene that will last for a cpl of hours and then go back to normal, but what do you do when this is normal? And there you begin to see the jump point for this conversation.

I'm assuming "boundary" also, here is something you clearly stated you didn't want.

Not necessarily. It could be something that is unspoken or it may not have to do with the submissive at all, but is completely something the dominant wants.

Say a dominate wants control over an aspect of the submissive's life and what I mean by that is...that they want them to trust them in making the decision for them. The submissive has clearly said they want to give up control to the dominant in a blanket way...however the specifically this area is not something they are ready to give up power to them. Let's make it interesting and say they don't trust them enough to do so. Now what you have is a battle inside the mind and heart of the submissive. On one hand they want to give all control over and trust them, yet on the other hand they just can't seem to give it about this thing.

Does the dominant force them to hand over control? The easy answer is no, because they have not reached that level of trust and consent.

The hard answer is, yes the dominant takes it anyway.

If the dominant does this, as some has pointed out...once it is done, the submissive is actually thankful that they did so.

On the other hand, if they do it, this might fall in the area of breaking limits.

Which brings one back full circle...

"I'm trying to grasp"....to which I say exactly!


If one does nothing, then you fall into the Hester camp where things are boring and dull.

If you do force submission, then it got to go back to what Catillina said, in that the dominant better be confident in knowing what they are doing. They better know their submissive inside and out as well as themselves. Because in such situations you are are laying the whole thing on the line. (and one hopes that they are not roleplaying, because that is just scary as hell.).

Are other people interpreting boundary to me "unexplored and undiscussed before this point"

Again I would say not neccessarily. This could be something which the submissive would have dificulty doing over and over. Granted the more they are forced to go through it, the easier it might be, but that's not always the case. At least I don't think so. The timing of a request to submit may make it harder this time around than the last time. Hence even though its been done before, help in the form of being forced is needed.

Seems simple enough on the surface doesn't it. Seems so easy to just say...nope, forcing is wrong and sound correct. When the truth is there is a tremdious struggle happening within the dominant to just know the right thing to do and do it, and the incredible struggle this is for the submissive to obey.

RR - At some point, one person is saying to the other---I trust you, I might not like where you are taking this, but I trust you.

KC - sometimes in not liking it they are actually loving it also

Hester - sometimes it's not about liking or loving but simply a matter of need

Catilina - It becomes a matter of wills being pitted against each other, and about forcing what one hopes for no matter how much it may repusle or scare them on other levels..... .....It is for those reasons you need as a PYL to feel very secure with what you are doing and why

Life does not afford you time to stop and check the rulebook, and that is why often textbook answers just don't cut it sometimes.

 

[Guest]

*sigh*
"Forced Submission" ... Etc etc etc.... "Seems" to have a high intrinsic erotic value.
Notice all the erotica devoted to just that subject?...
From both sides of the erotic equation...
And about a bazillion role play episodes every year, near as I can tell from the literature.. The essential idea to us being that both parties know whats going on.
Before it goes on.
It's sure enough one of those things where if both of you don't agree to it... There's a good chance of getting your ass in a crack. In a major way.

That out of the way... Yeah ..I fully understand RJ's attraction to it..
He and I approach things like that from different directions though..
Hmmm I think thats all I'll say about it right now... I'm still working through some things in my own head.
(sigh* What a pisser...

*grin*
As for the orgasm issue....*shrug* To tell the absolute truth... I've had sex that was so bad I insisted on doing in doggie so she couldn't see me looking at my watch... Or yawning..
And no, that isn't a joke... Wish it was.

 

[RJMasters]

The essential idea to us being that both parties know whats going on.
Before it goes on.

That's the rub isn't it? So much of the time both don't. And as the oracle from the matrix would say..."and what's really going to bake your noodle is, would you have broken the vase if I hadn't said anything in the first place."
*buzzer sound* -error--does not compute shutting down main frame for reboot.

That out of the way... Yeah ..I fully understand RJ's attraction to it..
He and I approach things like that from different directions though..
Hmmm I think thats all I'll say about it right now... I'm still working through some things in my own head.
(sigh* What a pisser...

I have to say that I am not so sure I am attracted to this. I mean it has an arousal factor that would make me leave protien on the ceiling in certain scene situations, but on the relationship level it scares the hell out of me. The problem is, it happens. It is a pisser, because just when you think you got it right, your out of bounds and wondering wtf just happened?

Its dang good to see you bro. Your missed when your not here. I hope you will add more to this... I'll be disappointed if you don't.