Forced submission

[RJMasters]

Here are some simplistic examples that give a feel of the shade of grey we are discussing.


An example would be a submissive's fears.

Fear to say... stand up in public and give a speech. She is deathly afraid of doing something like this.

He decides he is going to start hosting munch meeting at their house in their area. He knows it will require her help at times to be in front of people and to speak. She turns pale white in the face upon hearing this...begging him not to make her do this, because she just can't.

She wants to help him. She knows he needs her help but she is afraid. She cannot nor would do this ever on her own. He makes her do it anyways. And one would hope helps her to prepare.

How does he force her? A mixture of the whip, encouragement and tangible help and maybe if needed a removal of approval until she is willing to try.

All could be used to force her to do this.

Now, try replacing the speaking with peircing a nipple. Now you have your mixture of physical added into the process.

He could make her study about peircings, make her go and watch peircings at a body shop. Push her by giving her an exact date a month from now when it will take place.


The point is, she knows she cannot do this on her own. She needs him to command her to do it because....

Because her love and desire for him...is stronger than her own fears.

And if you understand that, then you get why this takes place. Why it is desired.

Maybe another example would be a Domme who has been training a sissy for a while. Has no problem wearing dresses in the house for Her. Then she comes home and says at the end of this week you will join me in public for dinner and hands the sissy the sexy night dress that he/she will be wearing. His/her hand trembles and takes the dress scared to death as he/she has never worn a dress before in public. He tries to beg Her not to do this as he is not ready. She forces him/her to do it anyways. After dinner he/she spends the night worshipping the Goddess for who she is and making him/her do this. It is something he/she would never have had the courage to do on his/her own.

Comment? yes / no?

 

[lettinggo]

Okay, well, for the people wanting to force something, would a blanket statement work?

"I want you to let me do this. I want to see how far I can go."

Or does that ruin it?

I'm trying to grasp what it means here to ride a boundary without ruining trust, mostly what I'm getting is either the person having their boundaries tested can't clarify their needs, or the person wanting to test the boundaries isn't secure about crossing over them within consent format.

I'm assuming "boundary" also, here is something you clearly stated you didn't want.

Are other people interpreting boundary to me "unexplored and undiscussed before this point"

I cry a lot. A good orgasm will make me cry. For some reason, I was unable to cry, no matter how far my dom pushed me. Out of desperation for the emotional release, one night I told him I wanted him to "break me". He was still learning my limits at the time, but he knew what I meant. I took everything he had to give with the trust that he was watching closely for signs that I wasn't ok. I never did cry that night, but I did another. I think he was a little shocked, and he lightened up a bit, but he knew I would have used my safeword if I really wanted it to stop, so he continued.

I have a healthy fear of my dom; meaning the sky is the limit for him, so I never know what's coming next. I often freeze up with fear; not keeping my legs open when told, or not lying still. I'm given a stern warning to do so, and I've always complied but I have a feeling I'd get tied into the position if I didn't. I suppose some would consider that to be forced, but in reality, if I really didn't want it I could safeword out.

He's brought up an activity that I responded with a flat out "No! No way! Absolutely not!" And with a sadistic laugh, he'd coerce me into it. If it was something that was a hard limit for me (such as water torture), I would say so and explain why. Then he might taunt me with it, but he would never force it upon me.

I guess I assumed that most dom/sub relationships where the dom has less limits worked similarly to ours.

 

[lettinggo]

Regarding your last post, it still isn't force. The subs in the scenerios are consenting to it, either because they secretly want to, or out of desire to please the other. Forced would be tying her down and giving her the piercing even though she never consented. That's so much different from giving her an assignment, and having her drag her feet on the way to the parlor.

 

[RJMasters]

Regarding your last post, it still isn't force. The subs in the scenerios are consenting to it, either because they secretly want to, or out of desire to please the other. Forced would be tying her down and giving her the piercing even though she never consented. That's so much different from giving her an assignment, and having her drag her feet on the way to the parlor.

Who said anything about a palor? The peircing is done on the date given by him and her tied. Come the morning she will have a peirced nipple. I don't think helping her to face the coming event is a bad thing. Honestly, if I could over a peroid of a month help her to come to the point where she consented openly and made the decision that she wanted it...that's great too. In fact that is what i would prefer.

I gave the examples I did to show that there are many levels or shades of being forced too. They are all yes within the box of consent as far as the relationship goes, but in all three cases were unwilling on their own to do what was being asked of them.

I will consider your thoughts though.

As to your above posts...thank you. I would like to know if how your experience is different than the examples I provided. Do you see your experiences as being forced? If so how is your experience different?

 

[lettinggo]

I don't think my situation is different from the examples you posted.

The piercing scenerio in this context makes more sense to me now. He's talked about branding me, which is a hard limit for me. If he approached it the right way, he could coerce me into it and I know I would regret it. I still wouldn't consider it force, but I'd consider it a breach of trust. He knows he can manipulate me. And he knows I'm against permanent scars for a "non-permanent" relationship.

But in the scenerios and in situations with my dom, it's all about the pleasure. I hate his hard spankings, especially with the rope. But the alternative is to let him down and my desire to please him far outweighs the discomfort of the rope. So I take it for as long as I can, knowing that my wiggling and cries of displeasure are the source of his pleasure. While I despise it at the time, as soon as it's over it becomes a happy memory. In a conversation with him, I may refer to "that time you forced me to take the rope...", but I would never describe it that way to someone else. To me, force is abuse, and everything he does to me is with my unspoken consent.

 

[Pure]

An example would be a submissive's fears.

Fear to say... stand up in public and give a speech. She is deathly afraid of doing something like this.

He decides he is going to start hosting munch meeting at their house in their area. He knows it will require her help at times to be in front of people and to speak. She turns pale white in the face upon hearing this...begging him not to make her do this, because she just can't.

She wants to help him. She knows he needs her help but she is afraid. She cannot nor would do this ever on her own. He makes her do it anyways. And one would hope helps her to prepare.

How does he force her? A mixture of the whip, encouragement and tangible help and maybe if needed a removal of approval until she is willing to try.

All could be used to force her to do this.
----

P: The therapeutic dom, 'This is what you need to become a better person.'

 

[RJMasters]

An example would be a submissive's fears.

Fear to say... stand up in public and give a speech. She is deathly afraid of doing something like this.

He decides he is going to start hosting munch meeting at their house in their area. He knows it will require her help at times to be in front of people and to speak. She turns pale white in the face upon hearing this...begging him not to make her do this, because she just can't.

She wants to help him. She knows he needs her help but she is afraid. She cannot nor would do this ever on her own. He makes her do it anyways. And one would hope helps her to prepare.

How does he force her? A mixture of the whip, encouragement and tangible help and maybe if needed a removal of approval until she is willing to try.

All could be used to force her to do this.
----

P: The therapeutic dom, 'This is what you need to become a better person.'

Forgive me Pure but you lost me. Is what you said striaght up what it means? Are you saying there is a type of Dom which you consider the therapeutic dom? Never heard that term used before.

Besides that, could you share your thoughts as whether you see this example as forced submission or not forced submission?

I posted these examples as a means to show different levels of how a person might be forced. I would be interested in knowing if others see these as being forced submission or not. I am still trying to sort out a few things on this and would appreciate your take on it.

 

[RJMasters]

I don't think my situation is different from the examples you posted.

The piercing scenerio in this context makes more sense to me now. He's talked about branding me, which is a hard limit for me. If he approached it the right way, he could coerce me into it and I know I would regret it. I still wouldn't consider it force, but I'd consider it a breach of trust. He knows he can manipulate me. And he knows I'm against permanent scars for a "non-permanent" relationship.

But in the scenerios and in situations with my dom, it's all about the pleasure. I hate his hard spankings, especially with the rope. But the alternative is to let him down and my desire to please him far outweighs the discomfort of the rope. So I take it for as long as I can, knowing that my wiggling and cries of displeasure are the source of his pleasure. While I despise it at the time, as soon as it's over it becomes a happy memory. In a conversation with him, I may refer to "that time you forced me to take the rope...", but I would never describe it that way to someone else. To me, force is abuse, and everything he does to me is with my unspoken consent.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing.

Your first paragraph actually present a possible example of how easily things can get confused. On one-hand you say he "knows" that your against permanent scars for a "non-permanent" relationship(wonders if there is actually such a thing but that's another topic). But on the other hand you say he can manipulate you into doing it if he really wanted to. So this then is a point of trust between you that he will not or should not take advantage of. Yet let's look at this from a different angle. Say inspite of knowing your against it he still wants to brand you. Yes he knows your against this, but when he pushes you, you give in a little bit. So he pushes more...and you give more. Does he still know that your against this? Or has his perception changed? Maybe because you have not stood your ground clearly or used your safeword, but have allowed him to manipulate you, in his head, he is thinking that maybe you want to be branded and you just need a bit of a push. So he pushes you and you fold and get branded. Now you regret doing it and you see it as his fault as a breach of trust.

I find that interesting and eye-opening and troubling to my way of thinking.

 

[Netzach]

Does the dominant force them to hand over control? The easy answer is no, because they have not reached that level of trust and consent.

How would one accomplish this? Please, enlighten me. Other than some very unconventional means that fall far outside of what I'd call consensual behavior or ...what? "If you don't I'm gonna leave/dismiss you?" I guess if you go through your relationships perpetually prepared to dimiss this will work. I try to maintain an element of this imbalance with my slave over rosy and romantic tones at all times.

I don't think all power lies with the submissive, blah blah. But I sure as hell know as well as I know I'm female that one cannot force someone to give up control and have that come to any good. A person who is submissive will come to submission. You either love the struggle, process, and attrition or you are making yourself miserable for reasons I can't fathom.

It has nothing to do with correctness or rules.

 

[RJMasters]

How would one accomplish this? Please, enlighten me. Other than some very unconventional means that fall far outside of what I'd call consensual behavior or ...what? "If you don't I'm gonna leave/dismiss you?" I guess if you go through your relationships perpetually prepared to dimiss this will work. I try to maintain an element of this imbalance with my slave over rosy and romantic tones at all times.

I don't think all power lies with the submissive, blah blah. But I sure as hell know as well as I know I'm female that one cannot force someone to give up control and have that come to any good. A person who is submissive will come to submission. You either love the struggle, process, and attrition or you are making yourself miserable for reasons I can't fathom.

It has nothing to do with correctness or rules.

Nods...

But wouldn't you say there is a difference when you come at it from the POV that the submissive does want to give up control, but it comes down to...make me. I won't do it unless you make me. Inside they want to but won't.

Choices of action? And ending the relationship is not an option for argument sakes.

Wait it out? - A person who is submissive will come to submission.

What if they are hoping you are a strong enough Dominant to push them but you don't, instead you wait it out?

Ty for joining the conversation by the way.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Okay, then why doesn't someone just say...

"Hey, wanna rape me?"

Is this hard?

I actually always scratch my head and wonder how you can be 'raped' if you want it and asked verbally for it. Pretend to be raped, yes, but to me rape is impossible to classify as such if the person on the receiving end is wanting and requesting it...it no longer is rape. In that way I don't see it as being in the same vein as forced submission.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Who said anything about a palor? The peircing is done on the date given by him and her tied. Come the morning she will have a peirced nipple. I don't think helping her to face the coming event is a bad thing. Honestly, if I could over a peroid of a month help her to come to the point where she consented openly and made the decision that she wanted it...that's great too. In fact that is what i would prefer.

RJ, what are you doing!! Here I am trying to avoid the next piercing session, not to mention the piercing nipples thing he is threatening me with, and you post something which might remind him where he was headed if he comes here and reads it!! LOL, this is a perfect example of one of the things we are working on. Sheesh, the branding he sprung on me unexpected (though we knew it would hapen one day) and I was sweating it but could still stand there unrestrained for it....piercing we have done a few times and each time I break out in a sweat (though in truth it doesn't hurt and there is little or no blood), and each time I try and talk him out of it. He does not accept that and if necessary would tie me down and force it on me. That scares me more so I try and comply while he physically holds me down (sometimes, when I am not so brave) and goes ahead, but I fear the way things are going restraining me will be the only way. I just wish I could get past the phobia, but it ain't happening anytime soon...seems I would be much happier (hmm, was that the word I was looking for?) if he was suggesting cutting or branding my flesh more so than sticking a little needle through it.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Nods...

But wouldn't you say there is a difference when you come at it from the POV that the submissive does want to give up control, but it comes down to...make me. I won't do it unless you make me. Inside they want to but won't.

Choices of action? And ending the relationship is not an option for argument sakes.

Wait it out? - A person who is submissive will come to submission.

What if they are hoping you are a strong enough Dominant to push them but you don't, instead you wait it out?

Ty for joining the conversation by the way.

But you see what I'm saying. You can make someone do something, either with force or with consequences they don't want to face. But you can't make someone *give up control* It's like forcing someone to be a certain religion. You can make them practise you can present overwhleming incentives to believe something and disincentives not to, but you can't make them believe, short of some very controversial and specific brainwashing kinds of situations, and there will always be certain people more resistant to that kind of breaking down.

As posited: Francisco can hold catalina down for her eventual piercing, but he could never have forced her to be the kind of person who would accept that from him, or forced her to give blanket consent to future endeavors.


But wouldn't you say there is a difference when you come at it from the POV that the submissive does want to give up control, but it comes down to...make me. I won't do it unless you make me. Inside they want to but won't.

I'm much more accustomed to situations in which the submissive is elated with a direct order and an opportunity to serve. If anything lack of active need and request is more painful than any of my orders, to my slave.

I know what genuine difficulties and limitations there are and I work within them in ways that over time stretch them to horizons that were not originally thought possible. This happens with patience and eventual curiosity and eventual expansion. It doesn't happen by forcing anything, it happens because my slave wants to impress me more than anything.

Choices of action? And ending the relationship is not an option for argument sakes.

--I would be doing that if this was an ongoing and chronic response to most orders, believe me.

Wait it out? - A person who is submissive will come to submission.

What if they are hoping you are a strong enough Dominant to push them but you don't, instead you wait it out?

--I am sure they will be dissatisfied and bored and want to move on. And they can do that and take their "submission" with them. I am a strong enough
Dominant that I know what I expect and will hold a slave to his word and I am strong enough to wait decades for what I want if that is what the situation takes.

 

[RJMasters]

RJ, what are you doing!! Here I am trying to avoid the next piercing session, not to mention the piercing nipples thing he is threatening me with, and you post something which might remind him where he was headed if he comes here and reads it!! LOL, this is a perfect example of one of the things we are working on. Sheesh, the branding he sprung on me unexpected (though we knew it would hapen one day) and I was sweating it but could still stand there unrestrained for it....piercing we have done a few times and each time I break out in a sweat (though in truth it doesn't hurt and there is little or no blood), and each time I try and talk him out of it. He does not accept that and if necessary would tie me down and force it on me. That scares me more so I try and comply while he physically holds me down (sometimes, when I am not so brave) and goes ahead, but I fear the way things are going restraining me will be the only way. I just wish I could get past the phobia, but it ain't happening anytime soon...seems I would be much happier (hmm, was that the word I was looking for?) if he was suggesting cutting or branding my flesh more so than sticking a little needle through it.

Catalina

Chuckles. Please let Him know I said hello.

 

[RJMasters]

But you see what I'm saying. You can make someone do something, either with force or with consequences they don't want to face. But you can't make someone *give up control* It's like forcing someone to be a certain religion. You can make them practise you can present overwhleming incentives to believe something and disincentives not to, but you can't make them believe, short of some very controversial and specific brainwashing kinds of situations, and there will always be certain people more resistant to that kind of breaking down.

As posited: Francisco can hold catalina down for her eventual piercing, but he could never have forced her to be the kind of person who would accept that from him, or forced her to give blanket consent to future endeavors.


But wouldn't you say there is a difference when you come at it from the POV that the submissive does want to give up control, but it comes down to...make me. I won't do it unless you make me. Inside they want to but won't.

I'm much more accustomed to situations in which the submissive is elated with a direct order and an opportunity to serve. If anything lack of active need and request is more painful than any of my orders, to my slave.

I know what genuine difficulties and limitations there are and I work within them in ways that over time stretch them to horizons that were not originally thought possible. This happens with patience and eventual curiosity and eventual expansion. It doesn't happen by forcing anything, it happens because my slave wants to impress me more than anything.

Choices of action? And ending the relationship is not an option for argument sakes.

--I would be doing that if this was an ongoing and chronic response to most orders, believe me.

Wait it out? - A person who is submissive will come to submission.

What if they are hoping you are a strong enough Dominant to push them but you don't, instead you wait it out?

--I am sure they will be dissatisfied and bored and want to move on. And they can do that and take their "submission" with them. I am a strong enough
Dominant that I know what I expect and will hold a slave to his word and I am strong enough to wait decades for what I want if that is what the situation takes.

I Netzach

and with that my thoughts on this topic have come together.

Although there is one other alternative to what you have suggested, which I will write in my summation.

 

[Recidiva]

I actually always scratch my head and wonder how you can be 'raped' if you want it and asked verbally for it. Pretend to be raped, yes, but to me rape is impossible to classify as such if the person on the receiving end is wanting and requesting it...it no longer is rape. In that way I don't see it as being in the same vein as forced submission.

Catalina

I suppose it depends entirely upon the imagination of the rapist.

 

[saw_man1]

Semantics?

The dialogue in this discussion has been fascinating.

Much of the discussion seems to center around semantics. Forced, by its very definition implies that something is happening against someone's will and without their prior consent or knowledge. In the context of a D/s lifestyle, I can see no justification for forcing anyone to do anything. Its wrong even if in hindsight one might be pleased with the results of the forced submission. It’s the word forced and all that it implies that I personally have difficulty with. In this context, perhaps coerced would be a better term to use.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I suppose it depends entirely upon the imagination of the rapist.

Not if it is the supposed rapee's imagination we are talking about....not to mention the act requires 2 people at least and matters little what the one doing it thinks in relation to what the outcome is. If someone asks to be raped because it is their fantasy, they are at best 'pretending' to not want it which to me is vastly different from really not wanting it to happen and doing all you can to stop it.

Catalina

 

[Recidiva]

Not if it is the supposed rapee's imagination we are talking about....not to mention the act requires 2 people at least and matters little what the one doing it thinks in relation to what the outcome is. If someone asks to be raped because it is their fantasy, they are at best 'pretending' to not want it which to me is vastly different from really not wanting it to happen and doing all you can to stop it.

Catalina

Okay, I am trying to stay on track and not go off on a tangent.

I think what I'm speaking of is the willingness to please your partner so much that you can tell where they want to go and you give them a pass to go there, or that you can make assumptions regarding getting to where you want to go, and making it happen.

I'm assuming there's trust, I'm assuming there's an understanding that not all fantasies or mysteries require a map, and sometimes drawing out the map is no fun.

The moment I'm getting to is the one where you've created a "repercussion free" zone.

This is clearly a delicate area where for some, they want it invaded, others want it respected.

Without going into a huge amount of detail that couldn't be interpreted as "rape" and "sick" when going here, I'm assuming this area is a "get out of jail free" card, essentially. A suspension of disbelief. An opening in the fence, handing someone the wire cutters.

Certainly relationships often involve capitulation of barriers and prohibitions, or the reinforcing or arising of them where they might not have been before.

The distinction made between coercion and force is where I stand. I love and adore coercion. I abhor and disrespect force.

For someone wanting to truly go that step beyond coercion into force, or from being undeniable into simply not listening to denial, that's exactly where my line is drawn.

My question is, mostly, how often do you hand out that zone, the wire cutters or the get out of jail free card, and do you stick with it when you do?

That's a test of your own trust in your partner, your judgment, and the thrill of a leap of faith. Yes, occasionally you land flat in the abyss, wondering what in hell made you think you could give that much freedom...but also, occasionally someone catches you in the dark and you fly.

Willingness to accept full responsibility for either outcome is what I'd require.

Maybe my distinction is in full responsibility for consequences by both partners.

 

[catalina_francisco]

The dialogue in this discussion has been fascinating.

Much of the discussion seems to center around semantics. Forced, by its very definition implies that something is happening against someone's will and without their prior consent or knowledge.

Not necessarily. This is what I found in the dictionary:

Main Entry: 2force
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): forced; forc·ing
1 : to do violence to; especially : RAPE
2 : to compel by physical, moral, or intellectual means
3 : to make or cause especially through natural or logical necessity <forced to admit my error>
4 a : to press, drive, attain to, or effect against resistance or inertia <force your way through> b : to impose or thrust urgently, importunately, or inexorably <force unwanted attentions on a woman>
5 : to achieve or win by strength in struggle or violence: as a : to win one's way into <force a castle> <forced the mountain passes> b : to break open or through <force a lock>
6 a : to raise or accelerate to the utmost <forcing the pace> b : to produce only with unnatural or unwilling effort <forced a smile> c : to wrench, strain, or use (language) with marked unnaturalness and lack of ease
7 a : to hasten the rate of progress or growth of b : to bring (as plants) to maturity out of the normal season <forcing lilies for Easter>
8 : to induce (as a particular bid or play by another player) in a card game by some conventional act, play, bid, or response
9 a : to cause (a runner in baseball) to be put out on a force-out b : to cause (a run) to be scored in baseball by giving a base on balls when the bases are full
- forc·er noun
- force one's hand : to cause one to act precipitously : force one to reveal one's purpose or intention
synonyms FORCE, COMPEL, COERCE, CONSTRAIN, OBLIGE mean to make someone or something yield. FORCE is the general term and implies the overcoming of resistance by the exertion of strength, power, or duress <forced to flee for their lives>. COMPEL typically suggests overcoming of resistance or unwillingness by an irresistible force <compelled to admit my mistake>. COERCE suggests overcoming resistance or unwillingness by actual or threatened violence or pressure <coerced into signing over the rights>. CONSTRAIN suggests the effect of a force or circumstance that limits freedom of action or choice <constrained by conscience>. OBLIGE implies the constraint of necessity, law, or duty <felt obliged to go>.



Main Entry: forced
Pronunciation: 'fOrst, 'forst
Function: adjective
1 : compelled by force or necessity : INVOLUNTARY <a forced landing>
2 : done or produced with effort, exertion, or pressure <a forced laugh>

For us, I can see it as forced when it is something I am not wanting, no matter how slave like I might be. I think it is important to remember also that while someone may be a slave or submissive and prepared to obey or do what makes their PYL happy, the reality is it can reach places where the pyl cannot overcome barriers alone (shock horror, may never be able to in some cases), unless of course the PYL plays safe and picks only those things they know will be within a defined range and then proudly claim their slave/sub will do anything to make them happy, or the pyl makes similar claims. Those relationships have their place, but for us we have the challenges which make me stretch myself to the limit to make him proud, then we have the ones which no matter how dedicated I am I am not going to make it alone which is when I have no problem with force being applied. It doesn't mean it is non-consensual, just that it needs force to reach the desired outcome. IMO there are many reasons for why a person cannot do something, not always related to simply not wanting to, or not being interested in filling the happy cloud of their PYL....it is reality.

Catalina

 

[Hester]

Rape me
Rape me, my friend
Rape me
Rape me, again
Am I the only one?

Hate me
Do it and do it again
Waste me
Rape me, my friend

Am I the only one?

My favorite inside source
I'll kiss your open sores
Appreciate your concern
You're gunna stick and burn

Rape me
Rape me, my friend
Rape me
Rape me, again

Am I the only one?

Rape me!

 

[Recidiva]

Rape me
Rape me, my friend
Rape me
Rape me, again
Am I the only one?

Hate me
Do it and do it again
Waste me
Rape me, my friend

Am I the only one?

My favorite inside source
I'll kiss your open sores
Appreciate your concern
You're gunna stick and burn

Rape me
Rape me, my friend
Rape me
Rape me, again

Am I the only one?

Rape me!

This has been running through my head all morning. It was you!

 

[catalina_francisco]

Okay, I am trying to stay on track and not go off on a tangent.

I think what I'm speaking of is the willingness to please your partner so much that you can tell where they want to go and you give them a pass to go there, or that you can make assumptions regarding getting to where you want to go, and making it happen.

I'm assuming there's trust, I'm assuming there's an understanding that not all fantasies or mysteries require a map, and sometimes drawing out the map is no fun.

The moment I'm getting to is the one where you've created a "repercussion free" zone.

This is clearly a delicate area where for some, they want it invaded, others want it respected.

Without going into a huge amount of detail that couldn't be interpreted as "rape" and "sick" when going here, I'm assuming this area is a "get out of jail free" card, essentially. A suspension of disbelief. An opening in the fence, handing someone the wire cutters.

Certainly relationships often involve capitulation of barriers and prohibitions, or the reinforcing or arising of them where they might not have been before.

The distinction made between coercion and force is where I stand. I love and adore coercion. I abhor and disrespect force.

For someone wanting to truly go that step beyond coercion into force, or from being undeniable into simply not listening to denial, that's exactly where my line is drawn.

My question is, mostly, how often do you hand out that zone, the wire cutters or the get out of jail free card, and do you stick with it when you do?

That's a test of your own trust in your partner, your judgment, and the thrill of a leap of faith. Yes, occasionally you land flat in the abyss, wondering what in hell made you think you could give that much freedom...but also, occasionally someone catches you in the dark and you fly.

Willingness to accept full responsibility for either outcome is what I'd require.

Maybe my distinction is in full responsibility for consequences by both partners.

We agree on many points, most especially responsibility for both people, but I think for some it is a place you reach after a period of time, especially in a 24/7 situation whereby the usual rules do not apply exactly as understood by those who like to scene or do not share a permanent relationship. I definately do not think it is a place many go, nor do I think even with assuming responsibility you can always be 100% sure of the outcome 100% of the time.

For me, force does not mean he hasn't listened to my POV, actually he most likely has and is helping. But it means that in the TPE relationship we are in it is his decision whether to take into account what I have said, or whether to push on and do whatever it takes in a hopefully safe manner. It is not easy to describe and it is not a frequent event or one he especially wants to happen, but there are times when it is best. In the case of rape, the only way I could see it as rape in this scenario discussed in thei thread was if it was unexpectedly arranged, most likely involving someone else, or the rapee thinking it were someone else and trying to really resist, not pretend to for the role play. Does that make sense?

Catalina

 

[Recidiva]

We agree on many points, most especially responsibility for both people, but I think for some it is a place you reach after a period of time, especially in a 24/7 situation whereby the usual rules do not apply exactly as understood by those who like to scene or do not share a permanent relationship. I definately do not think it is a place many go, nor do I think even with assuming responsibility you can always be 100% sure of the outcome 100% of the time.

For me, force does not mean he hasn't listened to my POV, actually he most likely has and is helping. But it means that in the TPE relationship we are in it is his decision whether to take into account what I have said, or whether to push on and do whatever it takes in a hopefully safe manner. It is not easy to describe and it is not a frequent event or one he especially wants to happen, but there are times when it is best. In the case of rape, the only way I could see it as rape in this scenario discussed in thei thread was if it was unexpectedly arranged, most likely involving someone else, or the rapee thinking it were someone else and trying to really resist, not pretend to for the role play. Does that make sense?

Catalina

I agree to a large extent.

I don't think it would necessarily have to involve someone else. It could definitely involve a certain level of what might seem to be schizophrenia. To unveil a certain aspect of self that hasn't been explored.

There's a certain level of forgiveness implied, or the ability to accept, regenerate, accomodate, whatever might have come up. In my case I was stunned by some issues, settings or concepts that came from an otherwise adoring, loving person.

Your lover can be another person completely.

 

[Pure]

Netzach said,

But you see what I'm saying. You can make someone do something, either with force or with consequences they don't want to face. But you can't make someone *give up control* It's like forcing someone to be a certain religion. You can make them practise you can present overwhleming incentives to believe something and disincentives not to, but you can't make them believe, short of some very controversial and specific brainwashing kinds of situations, and there will always be certain people more resistant to that kind of breaking down.

As posited: Francisco can hold catalina down for her eventual piercing, but he could never have forced her to be the kind of person who would accept that from him, or forced her to give blanket consent to future endeavors.


But wouldn't you say there is a difference when you come at it from the POV that the submissive does want to give up control, but it comes down to...make me. I won't do it unless you make me. Inside they want to but won't.

I'm much more accustomed to situations in which the submissive is elated with a direct order and an opportunity to serve. If anything lack of active need and request is more painful than any of my orders, to my slave.

I know what genuine difficulties and limitations there are and I work within them in ways that over time stretch them to horizons that were not originally thought possible. This happens with patience and eventual curiosity and eventual expansion. It doesn't happen by forcing anything, it happens because my slave wants to impress me more than anything.

P: As to the general point, that you can't force someone to give up control, I think that is right, with the exceptions you noted: certainly some kidnap victims, and POWs have done so. it is a survival means to place oneself in the hands of a powerful figure.

So we are assuming some kind of framework of consent, 'blanket consent' or 'consent for a contracted period'

However, I think Catalina makes a good point:

Cat: I think it is important to remember also that while someone may be a slave or submissive and prepared to obey or do what makes their PYL happy, the reality is it can reach places where the pyl cannot overcome barriers alone (shock horror, may never be able to in some cases), unless of course the PYL plays safe and picks only those things they know will be within a defined range and then proudly claim their slave/sub will do anything to make them happy, or the pyl makes similar claims.

P: IOW, there may be times when it's difficult or impossible to comply. For example, to hold still while being branded.

Recidiva seems to want to distinguish force and coercion, but it certainly 'seems' like coercion, of a sort, if this branded person is restrained. But of course, s/he accepts the restraints and even helps put them in place. Yet clearly the restraints are an instance of 'force.' Think of a case where, instead of restraints, a team of strong 'hospital orderlies' makes sure you hold still for your needle. They exert force, in a legal and 'physics' sense. That force is coercive, ie, compels a certain outcome.

I confess I am a little baffled by recidiva's analogy:

Rec The distinction made between coercion and force is where I stand. I love and adore coercion. I abhor and disrespect force.

For someone wanting to truly go that step beyond coercion into force, or from being undeniable into simply not listening to denial, that's exactly where my line is drawn.

My question is, mostly, how often do you hand out that zone, the wire cutters or the get out of jail free card, and do you stick with it when you do?

P: I would not say the to-be-branded person has 'handed out a get out of jail free' card. They are simply anticipating their own resistance. I suppose they might be construed as saying, 'that you overcome my resistance will not be held against you, e.g., in laying charges.'

but that seems strained because the context is 'blanket consent' or by contract. in an analogy i like, you can join the army or the French foreign legion. you volunteer and agree. at a given future time, however, you may be put in the brig for not following orders (and that will happen despite resistance, by force if necessary). i don't see that in terms of recidiva's analogy. consent to discipline is given at the beginning.

*perhaps she, R, is saying, 'were I grabbed off the street and branded, I would lay charges; yet it this case, I would not. in that sense it's "get out of jail free" ' but that seems strained.

The metaphor of 'hand out that zone' seems not to fit well. An overall or 'blanket' or 'contractual' submission entails that there may be such zones. So to say, they are 'handed out' at the beginning, not on the occasion.

That is my 'take' for what it's worth.