Forced submission

[Rick_47]

Recidiva
Trust me I of what I speak.

 

[Recidiva]

Recidiva
Trust me I of what I speak.

Why would I do that?

 

[alice_underneath]

I guess when it comes down to it is is subjective interpretation, but then I have never been one to feel obligated to comply with another's desires if they did not match my own and I had a choice.

But I do this all the time. Perhaps that is an important distinction to be made in explaining our different perspectives.

Turning to the topic at hand....

On this thread, RJ has specifically said that he wants to talk about situations in which the pyl is not obligated to comply. Those areas in which she still does have a choice.

Say a dominate wants control over an aspect of the submissive's life and what I mean by that is...that they want them to trust them in making the decision for them. The submissive has clearly said they want to give up control to the dominant in a blanket way...however the specifically this area is not something they are ready to give up power to them. Let's make it interesting and say they don't trust them enough to do so. Now what you have is a battle inside the mind and heart of the submissive. On one hand they want to give all control over and trust them, yet on the other hand they just can't seem to give it about this thing.

Given that description of what he is investigating, then his concept of forced submission doesn't even make sense in the context of a TPE relationship.

I'll use Mr. & Mrs. Finch's relationship once again to illustrate the type of situation that I have been assuming he wants to explore. (I trust that he will correct me if I am wrong).

There are areas of the relationship in which Mrs. Finch has turned over control to her husband. She does not have the right to refuse his requests; she has already agreed to obey him within that realm of their relationship.

However, there are other areas in which she has not agreed to give up control. Perhaps the way in which she interacts with other people when she is not in his presence is one of them.

He decides that she needs to get over her fear of speaking in public. So he sits down with her and explains where, when, and how he wants her to make a speech in front of strangers.

If he bends her to his will, he has 'forced' her to submit in the following sense of the word:

"To move or effect against resistance or inertia."

That is one definition of 'force' that is included in my dictionary. Whether or not that is what RJ has in mind is a different story! I am assuming that it is, based on various comments and examples he has provided here. If I am wrong, I hope he'll let me know.

Alice

 

[Rick_47]

Recidiva
Trust me ,why not , up to you ? But I do know of what I speak.

 

[catalina_francisco]

On this thread, RJ has specifically said that he wants to talk about situations in which the pyl is not obligated to comply. Those areas in which she still does have a choice.

Given that description of what he is investigating, then his concept of forced submission doesn't even make sense in the context of a TPE relationship.


Alice

Actually, as RJ and a couple of us pointed out, it does have a place and does make sense. You are interpreting it from a different perspective and understanding to the one he intended and I understood. I live TPE 24/7 and it is very much possible to combine both aspects without compromising the essence or reality of either.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

Again for sake of clarification...the examples I used are varying levels of force and are open to interpretation.

There is a difference...

Consider the following 4 relationships:

1. Vanilla mainsteam relationship. No D/s but there is give and take between the two.


2. Vanilla mainsteam relationship with one partner dominant, the other neither just vanilla.


3. Vanilla mainsteam relationship with one partner submissive, the other neither just vanilla.


4. D/s relationship, one partner is dominant the other is submissive, not just by nature, but admittedly and consenting to D/s.


In the first 3 relationships, forced submission IMO is not possible, because it lacks either the enforcer or the enforcee. Take example 2. A dominant in the relationship and a vanilla partner. The dominant may push to get their way, but if they run up against something that the vanilla partner cannot face or do, it is extremely unlikely that the dominant will push. Why? Because there is not room for that made within the relationship for that kind of consent.

Take example 3. A submissive may very much want their partner to force them to do things, but can they make their partner force them? No. So it is unlikely that force will be applied.

It is only when you have both a domiant and a submissive working withing the box of consent, can something like this be acheived.

This does not invalidate the desire on the part of the other two previous examples, but they are not the same.

Even if Mrs. Finch said no to Mr. Finch and Mr Finch had all he was about to take of that kind of talk and bent his wife over his knee and gave her a good spanking, and then afterwards, she did as she was told. This still does not apporach the D/s level of forced submission...because as Netzach pointed out, you cannot make one submit. If she is a vanilla woman, the result of the spanking will not foster a deeper trust in Mr. Finch, it would foster fear.

-----The door opens and your husband walks in with this sweet little thing on his arm. You are shocked and stare in disbelief at first but your blood begins to boil. You ask what the hell is this? To which your husband replies, I have brought her home to be used for sex tonight. Immediately you start shaking your head and say..."there is no fucking way you are going fuck that tramp!" To which your husband smiles calmly and replies..."Your right I am not. You are"

He watches as your face goes pale white.

We still talking about the same thing here? Understanding the principle of a discussion is one thing, living it to this level is quite another.

 

[alice_underneath]

Thank you for the clarification, RJ.

Just to clarify your intent with this thread further, would you please define the term "vanilla"?

Also, would you please tell me if you believe that forced submission is possible in a D/s relationship where neither person is interested in sadomasochistic play or physical punishment?

Finally, would you please explain if you are including online D/s relationships in the discussion of forced submission and, if so, would you please give an example of the 'force' that could be applied in that case?

Alice

 

[Recidiva]

RJ, I can understand your example if there's some level of carrot and stick, coercion or there's something in it for the partner.

On many levels exchange is how these things work themselves out.

Again, though, I see no reason to go outside the boundaries of coercion and exchange into force.

Considering in the arms of the husband could have been a little boy or an animal, there are clearly lines to be drawn. Forced to carry through on any of those is a different story.

You can shave it as close as you want, but there is a point at which the concept starts to bleed.

 

[RJMasters]

Thank you for the clarification, RJ.

Just to clarify your intent with this thread further, would you please define the term "vanilla"?

Also, would you please tell me if you believe that forced submission is possible in a D/s relationship where neither person is interested in sadomasochistic play or physical punishment?

Finally, would you please explain if you are including online D/s relationships in the discussion of forced submission and, if so, would you please give an example of the 'force' that could be applied in that case?

Alice

Vanilla would be a person who knows what D/s is about or is ignorant of what it is about, and maintains that they are not a submissive or a dominant nor do they have any desire or wish to be either.

Answer to your second question...I don't know.

Answer to your thrid question. The given nature of online relationships do not allow for this level of exchange in my experience. And I would strongly discourage it for obvious reasons.

Online Dom: Now take the needle and hold it over your nipple. Now push it through.

Online submissive: I can't....*shaking, nervious.

Online Dom: Yes you can. I said push it through

Online submissive: I can't. I want to obey you but I can't do this. Help me.

What's the Online Dom going to do? Tell her to do it again?

RL Dom: Now take the needle and hold it over your nipple. Now push it through.

RL submissive: I can't....*shaking, nervious.

RL Dom: Yes you can. I said push it through

RL submissive: I can't. I want to obey you but I can't do this. Help me

RL Dom *reaches hand out and places it over her hand holding the needle. Makes eye contact with her and maybe checks consent one last time..."Ready?".... "Yes Master"....His hand helps her push the needle through.


In both of the above cases, online or RL, I do not doubt the authenticity or desire of either submissive in wanting to submit and obey. However at the end of the day, only one submissive will have her nipple peirced according to their Master's wishes.

In a way I am very glad this was brought up because it does require both Online Doms and Submissives to understand the limitations of an online relationship. That is not to say that what they do online is false or roleplay, but it is different and requires one to adopt a whole different mentality. If a Dom and a submissive do engage in online D/s, each need to realise how the limitations will effect the relationship and be realistic in how it is approached.

 

[alice_underneath]

Answer to your thrid question. The given nature of online relationships do not allow for this level of exchange in my experience. And I would strongly discourage it for obvious reasons.

Online Dom: Now take the needle and hold it over your nipple. Now push it through.

Online submissive: I can't....*shaking, nervious.

Online Dom: Yes you can. I said push it through

Online submissive: I can't. I want to obey you but I can't do this. Help me.

What's the Online Dom going to do? Tell her to do it again?

RL Dom: Now take the needle and hold it over your nipple. Now push it through.

RL submissive: I can't....*shaking, nervious.

RL Dom: Yes you can. I said push it through

RL submissive: I can't. I want to obey you but I can't do this. Help me

RL Dom *reaches hand out and places it over her hand holding the needle. Makes eye contact with her and maybe checks consent one last time..."Ready?".... "Yes Master"....His hand helps her push the needle through.


In both of the above cases, online or RL, I do not doubt the authenticity or desire of either submissive in wanting to submit and obey. However at the end of the day, only one submissive will have her nipple peirced according to their Master's wishes.

In a way I am very glad this was brought up because it does require both Online Doms and Submissives to understand the limitations of an online relationship. That is not to say that what they do online is false or roleplay, but it is different and requires one to adopt a whole different mentality. If a Dom and a submissive do engage in online D/s, each need to realise how the limitations will effect the relationship and be realistic in how it is approached.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, RJ.

This helps me a lot in trying to understand what you are talking about here.

I have been thrown off the track by many of your comments, such as:

forced dominantion.

Not neccessarily physical. Could be emotional and mental as well.

How about emotional-mental black-mail? Mental forced submission.

The point is, she knows she cannot do this on her own. She needs him to command her to do it because....

Because her love and desire for him...is stronger than her own fears.

And if you understand that, then you get why this takes place. Why it is desired.

These comments explain my confusion about what you wanted to discuss.

Taking your example of an online pyl and nipple piercing, let's assume they have a relationship in which she has already given him control over her orgasms, but she had a hard limit about body modification.

One day he says - No more orgasms until I see you on my webcam with pierced nipples. The command is not to pierce her own nipples, but simply to head out to wherever it is people go to get such a thing done by a professional, and come back appropriately adorned with a shiny gold ring on each side.

To me, the fact that he is not poking her himself makes the example more in keeping with your interest in discussing forced submission "on a relationship", not a scene, level.

This example also would clearly fall in the "emotional-mental blackmail, mental forced submission" or extortion category, as I would define it.

On the one level, she is surely thinking - Hey, no fair! That's not what I had in mind when I signed up for orgasm control.

On the other hand, she might give in and go get herself pierced, precisely because her "love and desire for him is stronger than her fears".

Hopefully, that example explains my confusion about what you are discussing.

In both of the above cases, online or RL, I do not doubt the authenticity or desire of either submissive in wanting to submit and obey. However at the end of the day, only one submissive will have her nipple peirced according to their Master's wishes.

To be honest with you, I would only consider the RL sub to be physically forced if the PYL has to drag her kicking and screaming and thrashing to the table and tie her down.

If she hops on the table and lies still while he binds her, to me the concept of being physically forced becomes more than a bit strained.

Alice

 

[Kajira Callista]

Hmmm forced? That would have me walking out the door, would be a turn off. Finessed into...that is kinda hot.
Reminded why...well that would get ya what you wanted without a thought of the negative on my part.

I know for me that there are tons of things my mind really wants to do.
I also know that my mind can be way more submissive then my body sometimes and my body refuses to want some things.
I have been known to totally freeze in this type of situation (become unresponsive to a command or tense and sorta become blank) and if the person i am with doesn't know how to unfreeze, mind and body play a game of war that neither is going to let the other win.
I think the key is knowing how to unfreeze and i think that trying to "force" anything at that point would probably achieve the opposite effect of the one you were going for.

 

[FurryFury]

Fury

ROALMFAO

Oh Fury you do tickle me so.

I too would like....

d

Fury

Forced submission is usually more mental than not, of a person,usually from a young age ,where as they became submissive and do not know any better than doing as they are told.They may be dominent for years as the grow older , but always return to submissive person wanting to serve the one they are with ,with no expectations for themselves.Don`t ask how I know.

How do you know?

*falls down laughing*



Fury

Looks like a secretive person here but that's okay we all have our secrets.

 

[catalina_francisco]

T
To be honest with you, I would only consider the RL sub to be physically forced if the PYL has to drag her kicking and screaming and thrashing to the table and tie her down.

If she hops on the table and lies still while he binds her, to me the concept of being physically forced becomes more than a bit strained.

Alice

Why, because that is how we see it in all the hot stories and porn sites? What if there was a threat applied which made going quietly seem more appealing and safe? What if as KC says, the submissive mentally and emotionally does want to please, but is unable to physically do what is required without force? What if the fear alone makes it difficult to kick, scream, and appropriately thrash about? What if the sub did not see any point in physically resisting to that point based on physical incapabilities? What if they fear more harm by applying all that thrashing on the way to what they know is inevitable? What if the disgrace of physically resisting the Dominant is greater than their fear or desire to resist getting on the table?

There are many scenarios which do not need excessive melodrama to make it physically forced. If you were taken hostage and told to get into a car by the kidnapper or some undefined horror would befall you...would you see complying without fighting back and risking whatever horror you imagined in your mind as submitting willingly and not being forced physically to accompany your captor? Though it is not D/s or consensual, I think you would agree there are times when not fighting back does not necessarily define the terms of the outcome. In a TPE relationship whereby you have agreed to not have limits, being forced to submit can be achieved in many ways if the Dominant so wishes to exert their rights as agreed upon.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I think that the risk-taking and trust exhibited by a Dominant who insists on compliance and uses the whole stinking relationship as his/her collateral is really interesting.

I don't have the balls to pull that one out a lot. I can't fathom having the balls to with a valued romantic partner. It makes it even more confusing to me, the "my property, my partner" status of many. I will never play that hand with someone I could not stand to see walk away.

 

[RJMasters]

shakes head no...

In the beginning of this thread I threw out a bunch of jumbled thoughts regarding this topic in hope to discuss it and learn something.

The first mile stone of this thread was first defining that this takes place within the context of a D/s relationship inside the box of consent. That is the starting point or the jump off point for this discussion.

The second milestone was in uncovering that yes it does infact happen. Via Catilina's posts.

The third milestone began discussing what that looks like realisticly and what it doesn't look like. Again Via Vatilina's posts.

The fourth milestone was Natzach's ascertion that there is no such thing as forced submission. This is not in contridiction with what Catilina posted(see jumping off point). Submission cannot be forced, it is either given or it is not. I think that is a key concept in approaching this whole topic.

From there a conversation has broken out to further explore if this concpet of "forced" expains to a wider definition or not. To do this I offered varying examples of applying different types of force so that this could be further explored.

Does this type of thing occur in other types of relationships other than D/s?

Does it include mental and emotional aspects? I don't know, I think that's what you are discussing is it?

So discuss. Put forth your ideas. I want to know what you and others think.

So far the two who have made the most sense is Catilina and Netzach. As to the other areas of the discussion, the jury is still out. I think I am beginning to put some handles on it though for myself.

 

[RJMasters]

Hmmm forced? That would have me walking out the door, would be a turn off. Finessed into...that is kinda hot.
Reminded why...well that would get ya what you wanted without a thought of the negative on my part.

I know for me that there are tons of things my mind really wants to do.
I also know that my mind can be way more submissive then my body sometimes and my body refuses to want some things.
I have been known to totally freeze in this type of situation (become unresponsive to a command or tense and sorta become blank) and if the person i am with doesn't know how to unfreeze, mind and body play a game of war that neither is going to let the other win.
I think the key is knowing how to unfreeze and i think that trying to "force" anything at that point would probably achieve the opposite effect of the one you were going for.

Great comment KC thank you.

 

[RJMasters]

crude I have to go to school...laterz all.

 

[alice_underneath]

If she hops on the table and lies still while he binds her, to me the concept of being physically forced becomes more than a bit strained.

Why, because that is how we see it in all the hot stories and porn sites?

I wouldn't know how "we" see it in those contexts. I do not read stories involving sadomasochistic play, and I do not watch porn.

My comments were based on my understanding of the term 'physically forced'. If she knows what to expect ahead of time, and climbs on that table and allows herself to be bound, I personally do not consider that being physically forced.

If she is hopping on the table to avoid punishment later, then there really is no difference (in my mind) between the online and RL sub. As long as punishment in a relationship is a possibility, this threat would apply equally in a discussion of 'force'. Threatening punishment is a type of mental force, in my opinion.

But this is really a semantics issue, so there is no 'right' answer, and your opinion on whether this counts as being 'physically forced' is just as good as mine.

In a TPE relationship whereby you have agreed to not have limits, being forced to submit can be achieved in many ways if the Dominant so wishes to exert their rights as agreed upon.

I have been trying to think of an example in a TPE relationship that may be considered being 'physically forced' to submit, and would like to run it by you to get your opinion on it.

Let's say she is already tied up, expecting whatever it is that they have done many times before. He surprises her by saying: "Tonight, I will pierce your nipples".

He knows her terror about this activity. Perhaps they tried it before and she froze in the way KC is describing.

However..... since this is a TPE relationship, she has consented to whatever he wants to do.

In this situation, I might consider her as being 'physically forced' to submit to the piercing. Would you?

Alice

 

[ammre]

I would like to start a serious discussion about forced submission. I am just going to throw out my thoughts and then shut up and listen for a while. I may ask for clarification should I have questions, but I have no other agenda here but to listen and learn.

Why is it that there is such a high arousal fantasy factor attached to forced submission, but the reality is rarely, it at all, realistic or practical.

In some ways after thinking on this I see this as the opposite reflection of the rape fanstasy in reverse. To some degree this is why I attribute high arousal factor to it.

Perhaps within a scene's scope, I can see how this can be expressed and be very hot, but from a relationship standpoint, its expression resembles more of a fish on dry land flapping around.

So there is fantasy and there is reality, I guess I am asking what part does forced submission really take? And what does that say to the realisticness as opposed to playing at being dominant/submissive?

What does forced submission imply at the relationship level? Good/bad? Real or unrealistic? Why?

I would appeciate your input to help me sort out my thinking on this topic.

(I haven't read any of the other replies, well i have some, but not fully, i'm lazy and i ahven't beenhere in a while, i apoligize if i'm reitering or misconstruin things)

Communication. Understanding.

Think of the pyl as a very very expensive and irreplacable toy. You want to use the toy, maybe even "force" it to do some things, but you woudn't break it, or hurt it, becasue then it won't work right, or it won't work at all. That's sort of the level of basic care a PYL has to have for a pyl for the expierence to work.
Real force has no concern. The goal is not to have sex and power together, but just pure power. like a rapist woulnd't rape becasue he's horny. There's something entirely different going on in their heads. I don't know anyone who truely wants that.
That's a lot of where understanding and communication come in. Safe words are very good so that there's a level of "force" but it won't go past the point of hurting someone. Some couples (like cat and fran) are so intune with eachother they know exactly how far to push without really screwing the other up.

I read the non consent stories... yes i find them hot. BUT, 98% of the time i get these painful nagging feelings that i would totally fuck any person up who tried to force me to have sex. I work in a women's center. I'm safe zone trained as well as trained by the sexual assault team. I'm a raging feminist and i can't turn that part off in my brain, but if i knew someone cared for me, and there was a good connection there, i can be cajoled or "forced". So long as i know that with a word, or with a proper response, power will be returned to me

 

[RJMasters]

(I haven't read any of the other replies, well i have some, but not fully, i'm lazy and i ahven't beenhere in a while, i apoligize if i'm reitering or misconstruin things)

Communication. Understanding.

Think of the pyl as a very very expensive and irreplacable toy. You want to use the toy, maybe even "force" it to do some things, but you woudn't break it, or hurt it, becasue then it won't work right, or it won't work at all. That's sort of the level of basic care a PYL has to have for a pyl for the expierence to work.
Real force has no concern. The goal is not to have sex and power together, but just pure power. like a rapist woulnd't rape becasue he's horny. There's something entirely different going on in their heads. I don't know anyone who truely wants that.
That's a lot of where understanding and communication come in. Safe words are very good so that there's a level of "force" but it won't go past the point of hurting someone. Some couples (like cat and fran) are so intune with eachother they know exactly how far to push without really screwing the other up.

I read the non consent stories... yes i find them hot. BUT, 98% of the time i get these painful nagging feelings that i would totally fuck any person up who tried to force me to have sex. I work in a women's center. I'm safe zone trained as well as trained by the sexual assault team. I'm a raging feminist and i can't turn that part off in my brain, but if i knew someone cared for me, and there was a good connection there, i can be cajoled or "forced". So long as i know that with a word, or with a proper response, power will be returned to me

Interesting...thank you.

 

[RJMasters]

My Summation:

I will keep it short and sweet.


I agree with Netzach in that you cannot force someone to give up control. You cannot force anyone to give consent. That is something they must do and do alone.

Once inside the box of consent, there are times when the Dominant can and does force their will upon their submissive. Sometimes greater forced is required in order to face certain things or push someone outside their comfort zone. When this is done, "care" should be taken to ensure that a willingness on behalf of the one being pushed is there. One can be firm and uncompromising and still be sensitive and caring.

There are I believe false notions on how this can be adopted and practiced. Recognizing the characteristics of this seems to be centered on going outside the box of consent or having a cavaleir approach towards the relationship.

Right wrong or indiffernt, I believe there is a high arousal factor attached to this idea of being forced. I think it can be arousing to Dom/Dommes and arousing to submissives. I think Fury's and some other's comments show how easily the words roll off the tounge when it is said..."I know alot of things I'd like being forced to do." I wonder how many actualy understand those kinds of statements to be understood within the context of consent. Those who say them and those who hear them. I wonder how many new Dom/Dommes hear them kind of words and it affects their thinking about this topic? I wonder how many new submissives hear those kind of words and it affects their thinking about this topic?

I believe there is a huge risk factor that Dom/Dommes faces when attempting to do something like this. As Catilina said, they had best know what they are doing.

As far as the realm of mental or emotional blackmail as a means of force. I consider this outside the arena of dominating and falls more into the area of manipulation, abuse and circumventing consent.

As far as it pertains to other relationships, I can only speak from my own experience which is a dominant in a 20 year vanilla marraige. There is no room for any of this because there is no box of consent to work from. Yes I have insisted plenty of times on my own way, but I do not see this as being the same.

As for online. No I don't believe it is possible in a right and good way. Possible in the sense of mental and emotional blackmail and such...yes, but as I said, that takes it off the playing field altogether.

Conclusion:

I have never been a big fan of forced subumission and I never will. I believe that it takes away the willing choice of the submissive to submit. This in turn teaches the submissive to be lazy in their own responsibility in living up to what they commited or consented too.

Since I do not believe this can be done online, nor do I have any way of doing this in RL, I can only guess as to what I would do if I was faced with a situation where forcing was required. I think I would need a huge amount of trust in the person who was requesting this of me, and I would have to know there was a clear willingness(consent) on their part to be pushed that far. I would also need to know if they as a person were strong enough to handle it, which would mean I would have to really know them inside and out on a very deep and personal level. If I did not have all of those, I would hope that I would see the danger and refuse.

I want to thank all who contributed to the discussion. I enjoyed some of the things which came out of this thread alot. I was also a bit disappointed in that people seem to assume that I was advocating forced submission when in actuality I tired several times over the course of the thread that I was merely trying to create discussion on the topic. In the beginning I was a bit jumbled with my thoughts and over the course of this thread was able to straighten them out for me. Admittedly I have no real experience in this area, so I appreciate those who have this type of experience and shared it with me.

I am sure there is alot more to explore and discuss on this topic and hope it will continue.

 

[Guest]

That's the rub isn't it? So much of the time both don't. And as the oracle from the matrix would say..."and what's really going to bake your noodle is, would you have broken the vase if I hadn't said anything in the first place."
*buzzer sound* -error--does not compute shutting down main frame for reboot.



I have to say that I am not so sure I am attracted to this. I mean it has an arousal factor that would make me leave protien on the ceiling in certain scene situations, but on the relationship level it scares the hell out of me. The problem is, it happens. It is a pisser, because just when you think you got it right, your out of bounds and wondering wtf just happened?

Its dang good to see you bro. Your missed when your not here. I hope you will add more to this... I'll be disappointed if you don't.

Oh..I'm still around... Sort of like the proverbial "bad penny"...
I just don't post quite as much anymore...
And most of what I post tends to be lighter... And short..