Gay vs. Bi Relations

[Misty_Morning]

Personally, therefore, i don't give a fuck who you are riding like a cowgirl every night, and i certainly don't care whether Bob is eating pussy or cock...

I care, and it better be me!

 

[Fallenfromgrace]

I care, and it better be me!

<3 mhmmm <3

 

[Essene]

Did you read my first posting? Please do, then PLEASE reconsider your personal comments towards me especially this part:

Thank you.

Yes, I read it. I thought we were also supposed to leave "snark...at the door."

I'm not upset, and I wasn't when I wrote my post. Next time I'll be sure to use more emoticons.

You've said this in the other gay/bi relations thread: "I guess that is sort of where I'm coming from. When I think Bi, I think of 'them' (gross generalization here) saying things like 'I do sort of do the 50/50 thing'. To me that would indicate a lack of commitment to ME. If a person can switch back and forth between the genders that easily, I don't see how they would be able to ever find me to be their 'one and only' because I am missing some of the 'plumbing' that they desire and enjoy. That is why I'm so happy to be married to a K6+ chick who is 110% into me!"

-Which indicates to me that this is your personal bias.

My point is this: I don't care what you do, how you do it, or who you do it with. As far as my part of gay vs. bi goes, I don't have an issue. If you feel the need to keep bringing up the subject clearly this is an issue within yourself that you need to explore.

This is your problem, not mine. I have no issue with you, and I would never generalize you, or subject you to scrutiny, bias, or predjudice. I ask that you do the same of me.

I don't understand how continually opening up a dialogue to state one's reasons for predjudice is constructive. Unless you're actually willing to curb your bias, there is nothing to be gained here. I've told you who I am and what I'm about. I don't feel as though I need to continuously defend myself.

For the purpose of clarification, and lack of emoticons: I don't have a problem with Lesbians or other groups or categories of people for that matter. If you happen to be a Lesbian with a predjudice against bisexuals, it is not up to me to change your views.

"Fix" is not relevant to me. I don't have or see an issue with a group or category of people. If you have a personal predjudice regarding whatever I see that as an issue within you as the individual - not a group issue.

My view is nowhere near "us against them". I feel inclusive and included in the community as a whole.

This is my opinion. I'm expressing my views. I'm hoping that my opinion, though it may be different, will be appreciated.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Yes, I read it. I thought we were also supposed to leave "snark...at the door."

I'm not upset, and I wasn't when I wrote my post. Next time I'll be sure to use more emoticons.

You've said this in the other gay/bi relations thread: "I guess that is sort of where I'm coming from. When I think Bi, I think of 'them' (gross generalization here) saying things like 'I do sort of do the 50/50 thing'. To me that would indicate a lack of commitment to ME. If a person can switch back and forth between the genders that easily, I don't see how they would be able to ever find me to be their 'one and only' because I am missing some of the 'plumbing' that they desire and enjoy. That is why I'm so happy to be married to a K6+ chick who is 110% into me!"

-Which indicates to me that this is your personal bias.

My point is this: I don't care what you do, how you do it, or who you do it with. As far as my part of gay vs. bi goes, I don't have an issue. If you feel the need to keep bringing up the subject clearly this is an issue within yourself that you need to explore.

This is your problem, not mine. I have no issue with you, and I would never generalize you, or subject you to scrutiny, bias, or predjudice. I ask that you do the same of me.

I don't understand how continually opening up a dialogue to state one's reasons for predjudice is constructive. Unless you're actually willing to curb your bias, there is nothing to be gained here. I've told you who I am and what I'm about. I don't feel as though I need to continuously defend myself.

For the purpose of clarification, and lack of emoticons: I don't have a problem with Lesbians or other groups or categories of people for that matter. If you happen to be a Lesbian with a predjudice against bisexuals, it is not up to me to change your views.

"Fix" is not relevant to me. I don't have or see an issue with a group or category of people. If you have a personal predjudice regarding whatever I see that as an issue within you as the individual - not a group issue.

My view is nowhere near "us against them". I feel inclusive and included in the community as a whole.

This is my opinion. I'm expressing my views. I'm hoping that my opinion, though it may be different, will be appreciated.

I'm sorry you feel the need to be defensive and don't wish to be part of trying to find solutions, but I do thank you for your input.

I'm also sorry that you seem to want to make this a personal thing because this IS a group issue. I'm not the only gay/lesbian who feels as I do and you aren't the only bi who sees things your way.

If we don't have the honesty to discuss our true thoughts, feelings and believes, and be willing to listen openly to what people say, then we are going to waste a lot of energy that should be better aimed at serving the LGBT community as a whole.

Having forced myself to "be Bi" for a number of years [before I quit being such a whimp and just came out ...which is admittedly a horrid way of phrasing it but I think you get the point though right?] I think I can understand both sides of this discussion.

I met plenty of criticism back when I called myself bi, the typical "greedy" comments that I sure a lot of Bi people are plagued with, and to be honest I can't say it came from people of any specific sexuality. I got it from both sides. However, as a out lesbian woman with mostly lesbian friends I can sort of see where this perception of the lifestyle choice is coming from. I don't believe at all that homosexual or straight people are "jealous" of the switching between sexual preferences as some one said, rather its just people finding themselves unable to trust Bi people because they don't really understand where they would stand in a relationship with such a person.

Society has a habit of stereotyping and marking people with unfavourable traits because of various lifestyle choices. I don't for a minute think that any one person of the LGBT community is specifically... anything you know? like person A could be a very polyamorous gay or indeed straight, while person B might be completely monogamous. I believe that certain groups of people view others specific groups with, for lack of a better phrase, tinted glasses. everyone is who they are. You may not like their lifestyle morally but that doesn't mean that they are unable of being kind, generous, loving, friendly, etc. people.

I always judge people on a case by case basis.. and not being able to do this I think is what is plaguing the community with all the hate and such. If people threw away any preconceptions of others based on their sexuality, then every one could get along swimmingly. Until then there will always be a certain element of "not being able to understand it" or whatever.

It just... depends..

Did any of that make sense? I'll be the first to admit that I'm not always a very coherent writers hehe

I hear what you are saying about the "individual" and the trust we have both mentioned can only REALLY be attained on an individual basis, IMO. That said, there can still be group dynamics that come into play. For example, while researching this subject, I came across several bi oriented web sites that mentioned how gays / lesbians are biased and prejudicial against bi's. I've also seen lesbian and gay web sites that won't allow bi or pre-op TG members.

Having "lived" in both worlds, you are in kind of a unique position to discuss possible solutions for this rift. How would YOU go about addressing it?

~~~~~~~~

Any gay dudes or TG's got any comments or input???

Bueller?....

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

I am bi. Seriously. I have lived quite happily as a poly, Toppish Daddi for most of my life. I have a preference for bottom type women. What does any of that have to do with the things I believe are right for the GLBT community? Not a damned thing. I want equality for everyone and I make it a point to be deeply involved with anything that concerns female or Gay rights.

I don't call myself bi. I am queer. I have been with the same woman for over a year. Yet again, what the fuck does that have to do with the civil rights ideal for everyone involved in a same sex relationship? Not a damned thing. It seems to me that most bisexual people just want to be accepted and acceptance is hard to find within our communtiy unless we follow the preordained steps towards that final hurdle. (Please don't ask me what I think that final hurdle to acceptance is...I am just a little sensitive today and won't be able to word it appropriately.)

I don't take other people (men or women) to task over their so called sexuality because in reality it is none of my business. Acceptance means that there is no judgement, no right or wrong. It just is. Part of the problem within the GLBT community is the fact that we do still have an *us vs them* mentality. Why?

From personal experience I can say that I have had more trouble with *real* lesbians then with anyone else in our community. I am great at being queer, awesome at being a daddi, tremendous at taking care of my baby girl. The problem is I will not call myself lesbian...I am QUEER. I will not say that I believe in happily ever after or in monogamy for it's own sake. I have never understood the thought process that makes someone believe they know me better than I know myself and yet I hear it all the time: "You know you really are a lesbian..." "God, you are such a dyke..." I may be these things now, but then again..I might not be.

I wish there was an easy fool proof way to open up the conversation so that we could get to cases. But in reality the GLBT communtiy is just as apt to believe the hype as blacks are to believe every white person is a closet racist.

We can only make change one conversation, one person, at a time.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I am bi. Seriously. I have lived quite happily as a poly, Toppish Daddi for most of my life. I have a preference for bottom type women. What does any of that have to do with the things I believe are right for the GLBT community? Not a damned thing. I want equality for everyone and I make it a point to be deeply involved with anything that concerns female or Gay rights.

I don't call myself bi. I am queer. I have been with the same woman for over a year. Yet again, what the fuck does that have to do with the civil rights ideal for everyone involved in a same sex relationship? Not a damned thing. It seems to me that most bisexual people just want to be accepted and acceptance is hard to find within our communtiy unless we follow the preordained steps towards that final hurdle. (Please don't ask me what I think that final hurdle to acceptance is...I am just a little sensitive today and won't be able to word it appropriately.)

I don't take other people (men or women) to task over their so called sexuality because in reality it is none of my business. Acceptance means that there is no judgement, no right or wrong. It just is. Part of the problem within the GLBT community is the fact that we do still have an *us vs them* mentality. Why?

From personal experience I can say that I have had more trouble with *real* lesbians then with anyone else in our community. I am great at being queer, awesome at being a daddi, tremendous at taking care of my baby girl. The problem is I will not call myself lesbian...I am QUEER. I will not say that I believe in happily ever after or in monogamy for it's own sake. I have never understood the thought process that makes someone believe they know me better than I know myself and yet I hear it all the time: "You know you really are a lesbian..." "God, you are such a dyke..." I may be these things now, but then again..I might not be.

I wish there was an easy fool proof way to open up the conversation so that we could get to cases. But in reality the GLBT communtiy is just as apt to believe the hype as blacks are to believe every white person is a closet racist.

We can only make change one conversation, one person, at a time.

No shit? You like brussel sprouts too?

Seriously, though, maybe that's what we need to do is all identify as queers. The rest of the crap needs to be relegated to the same level of bickering as between blondes and brunettes (even though we blondes ARE much sexier...)

To me queer, always has had a good connotation. It isn't sex or gender specific (per se) and it is inclusive of everybody's kinks and bents. It also is reminiscent of when certain people took the British insult "Yankee" and made it a "good thing".

Do you agree / disagree? Is GLBT, by identifying subsets of "queer", divisive in it's own right?

 

[gloriann]

I think many of us choose our labels, and I think it's human nature to do so. Luna chooses queer for herself; for myself, I prefer lesbian. What is truly divisive is when we are told that the labels we choose for ourselves are incorrect by people who don't live our lives or live in our skins.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Do you agree / disagree? Is GLBT, by identifying subsets of "queer", divisive in it's own right?

I don't think of the terminology as being divisive. I just prefer queer because it seems MORE inclusive (to me). If I say queer to anyone (gay or straight) they will know I am more than a little bent...with no other words needed. Quick and easy.

What is truly divisive is when we are told that the labels we choose for ourselves are incorrect by people who don't live our lives or live in our skins.

And you know, I agree with this 100%!!

 

[Fallenfromgrace]

I personally hate the word 'lesbian' and 'queer'. They just SOUND horrible. Yes i am those things, but i don't like the words used to name them. I am just a woman who is attracted to women, cant i be a WAW?

I have been doing research for my new project, and i came across a few things i want to share with everyone here, i will quote directly, but not now, later.

 

[emap]

Thinking about it more, I think part of the problem is in the labels, I mean think about it, you have gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender. The first two are a twisting of a word to mean something new, a twisting of a name to mean something else, and the last two are the scientific classifications.

Am I the only one going dang that's just not right?

I don't have any alternates besides sex lover, cause well darnit I am. Though I am going to point out blondes and brunettes bicker because they both think they are the second best looking to redheads.

 

[Fallenfromgrace]

As i promised some quotes:

''There has been a great deal of resistance to Bisexuality, which is seen as threatening to heterosexuals because of the homosexual component, and threatening to some lesbians and gay men because bisexuals are seen to be retaining the priveledges and respectability of heterosexuals. This anti- bisexual sentiment has come to be known as 'biphobia'...both homophobia and heterosexism militate against people coming out publicly as bisexual.''

''only 4% of males and between 0.3 and 3% of females reported themselves to be EXCLUSIVELY homosexual.'' Sample of 20,000 people in post war america- Kinsey, but other studies have reported similar levels- between 4 and 6%''

~~


The book is ''Pink Therapy: A Guide for Counsellors and Therapists working with LGB clients'' edited by Dominic Dacies and Charles Neal (1996) Open University Press UK

 

[RebeccaRose]

I hear what you are saying about the "individual" and the trust we have both mentioned can only REALLY be attained on an individual basis, IMO. That said, there can still be group dynamics that come into play. For example, while researching this subject, I came across several bi oriented web sites that mentioned how gays / lesbians are biased and prejudicial against bi's. I've also seen lesbian and gay web sites that won't allow bi or pre-op TG members.

Having "lived" in both worlds, you are in kind of a unique position to discuss possible solutions for this rift. How would YOU go about addressing it?

~~~~~~~~

Any gay dudes or TG's got any comments or input???

Bueller?....

As much as I hate to say it I don't think it really IS possible to solve the problem. As humans we are sort of predisposed to taking up a contrary position to others [again I'm kind of tired so I probably could have worded that better...]. However in a small community [like ours for example] the only way would be to "sow the seeds of acceptance". Treat people with the respect they deserve in the hope that they would return the favour.

In all honesty, sites that descriminate against any one group make me sick. Its called GLBT [or LGBT..] for a reason after all... Then again in that sense I am a bit of an idealist, but I do realise that someone will always spoil it for everyone else.

Rant over heh, I've noticed during my "post-heterosexual" life this kind of thing happening a lot around me. something of a pet hate for me is how some people tend to gravitate towards only one group of people, as if no one else is good enough for them or perhaps not able to understand them, or something along those lines. As a bi woman I only wanted to be accepted by everyone, and to a similar extent now, but I think now days I think more along the lines of... "if you can't deal with my life style choices then I can't deal with you". I honestly believe that you will get a certain amount of flack from others regardless of how you label yourself. I haven't noticed any change between the periods in my life when I called myself Bi or now days when I prefer lesbian.

As always, if you can't play nicely with someone then theres not really much point in sticking around them. You know?

Saying all that however, if we're talking Internet LGBT communities, I don't think the solution is to be posting up rules and regs. addressing the problem. Of course, you CAN, but I think the problem is much more an issue of social conventions. If people think its okay to be biased to one side and not include others then it will continue. Only when people see others acting in a civil way towards all will we make a move to cutting out the problem. Obviously that also counts in RL "communities".

 

[Stella_Omega]

it's a question of as they say, strange bedfellows.

Gay men and professed lesbians have very little in common as a group. Trans people are as likely to identify as straight as they are queer.
The only reason we all get identified this way is because he have to band together in order to make up enough of a group.

We never wanted to be political; many of us aren't good at it at all. Community action is not personal interaction, yanno? But it's hard to seperate from our personal reactions to each other.

 

[BiBunny]

I spend most of my time over at the BDSM boards, but this thread interested me, so here I am. I'm both polyamorous and bisexual (and a switch, though that doesn't really apply to the discussion).

I can't say I've ever really caught much hell from lesbians about being bisexual. Mostly, they just avoid me, which confuses me, but it's ok, I guess. Their choice. I actually get more grief from straight men, believe it or not.

The whole "oh, you might leave me for a member of the sex that's different than mine" is NOT limited to lesbians, for the record. Men who date bisexual women get all insecure about said bisexual woman leaving them for another woman, too.

I don't think anyone really deserves any sort of automatic mistrust simply because of their sexuality, be they gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, monogamous, polyamorous, kinky, vanilla, etc., etc. I can understand why lesbians might feel the way they do toward bisexual women, but I don't necessarily believe it's right.

As for me, well, I am polyamorous. (I actually tend toward polyfidelity, though, but I won't get into that whole spiel, as I'm pretty sure it's not relevant.) I can commit wholly to anyone I feel a connection with, male or female, though I don't do monogamy. And, as I'm currently head over heels in love with a married bisexual couple, I can totally understand the resentment that a lesbian might feel toward the "heterosexual privilege" of a bisexual woman. My Mistress and Master get that hetero privilege. I don't.

But it's not always as cut-and-dried as it appears. Yep, I'm bi. Yep, I could pretend to be straight and only do the bisexual thing behind closed doors and not give a red rat's ass about whether gay people are allowed to be married, etc.

On the other hand, though, all that affects me as well. God knows, nobody's ever going to allow plural marriages if gay marriage isn't allowed. I think anything civil rights related affects everyone, and it's something everyone, no matter who they are or what they identify as, should be concerned with. Things are hardly ever as simple as they appear.

So, basically, I think we should all get over ourselves.

 

[Isid]

So, basically, I think we should all get over ourselves.

oh... good advice... tall order though but trying...

 

[gloriann]

First of all, we SHOULD just all get over ourselves. Believe me, I'm not as antagonistic as this post may sound to some.

I had this reaction to... "nobody's going to allow plural marriages if gay marriage isn't allowed."

Don't get me wrong, I don't care if anyone is bi. It is not my preference, and it is none of my business. But we've been working so hard for gay marriage in my home state of California, and one of the more ridiculous arguments against it is that if gays are allowed to be married, then they'd have to allow, you know, marriage to ducks, and plural marriages... and I always laugh at that a little, because of the comedy.

And BiBunny just took all the humor out of it. Not the duck part, don't think I'm equating the two, Pat Robertson, don't bite my head off. But this maaaaay be one of the reasons gays and bi's have issues.

 

[SalzbergPage]

Hey Folks,

Thanks for this excellent discussion. You all make some really good points.

Among other things I'm very interested in how people can band together despite some internal divisions to reach broader political goals. I'm also interested in bi/lesbian, and sometimes lesbian/trans and black/white woman conflicts where there could be coalitions or simply friendly co-existence.
A few things (please don't mind the numbering, trying to keep my thoughts ordered):

You are so right to separate out the Bi and Poly/Monogamy issues.

1. In a monogamous context: I don't understand why people think that a Bi person is more likely to cheat or leave you for someone of the opposite sex. When a straight/lesbian/gay person is in a monogamous relationship they don't stop being attracted to other women/women/men just because they are with you, so why would a Bi person's continuing attraction to other people be any more problematic? Yes, they aren't getting sex with someone of a sex/gender different than their partner's, so that some of their desires are not being met, but isn't that the case in most monogamous relationships?

Unless you stop being attracted to anyone but your partner, one partner will never be able to do or be everything you might want. If you like breasts then there will always be other pairs out there; couples who love and stay together don’t always share the same kinks; if you are both perfectly happy with each other then other people are still different and will be attractive and will be something you're missing out on. (I’m not saying there's any problem at all with choosing to 'miss out' on those other things to enjoy monogamy btw, and poly people ‘miss out’ too, on some aspects of monogamy, in order to enjoy other good things). Any choice leaves other choices out and that, by itself, doesn't lead to cheating. It's no different for bi people.

2. I'm not entirely comfortable with 'bi' as a label since it implies there are only two genders, which is inaccurate. I'd be comfortable with it if there was a recognition that there are multiple genders and that the bi person was only attracted to two of them, but that's not the underlying assumption.

3. I think people often get uncomfortable with bi folks and treat them as if they are 'really' straight or 'really' gay/lesbian when partnered in the relevant way. This can be a form of homophobia when straight folks make mental excuses for/accept bi people by pretending they are straight. It is also a form of silencing and exclusion when bi people aren't deemed 'gay enough' or 'one of us' in LG communities.

4. Yes, it's true that Bi people can pass as straight and enjoy hetero privileges. I don't know what to say about that except that most Bi people I know are honest and open about it and not trying to pass. Since race was brought up by the OP, note the similarity in situations where light skinned Black people are sometimes treated as 'not black enough' in their own communities (where they are usually not white enough either, in white communities. Not straight enough, not gay enough. Lol.)

5. As for how to work together? Communication has to be the biggest thing. Getting to know some people from another group, listening widely to their experiences without assuming that ‘I’ know all the answers, being willing to get called on my own prejudice, asking another person what they need or want, being willing to stand up for my own boundaries and for what I know and need and want. Hmm, lol, maybe everyone should just fill in BDSM questionnaires and
I don’t know the answers for how to make this all happen, but I think really getting to know ourselves, let go of judging ourselves, forgiving and loving ourselves first goes a very very long way toward being able to work with each other across potential divides. (I like meditation, some 12 step program type things, good friends I can trust for this kind of growing). And I think mediators often ask people to look for common interests and work from that starting point – so LGBT people have some of those interests in securing civil rights, living violence free, etc = if we can keep that in mind there might be some common ground.
Also, we can recognize not only the tension between these groups but also all the very successful coalition building and accepting friendships that do occur and not only see the sniping =D

Enough of a rant? It’s my first post here – hope that’s ok! Either way I really enjoy listening to you all.

 

[BiBunny]

First of all, we SHOULD just all get over ourselves. Believe me, I'm not as antagonistic as this post may sound to some.

I had this reaction to... "nobody's going to allow plural marriages if gay marriage isn't allowed."

Don't get me wrong, I don't care if anyone is bi. It is not my preference, and it is none of my business. But we've been working so hard for gay marriage in my home state of California, and one of the more ridiculous arguments against it is that if gays are allowed to be married, then they'd have to allow, you know, marriage to ducks, and plural marriages... and I always laugh at that a little, because of the comedy.

And BiBunny just took all the humor out of it. Not the duck part, don't think I'm equating the two, Pat Robertson, don't bite my head off. But this maaaaay be one of the reasons gays and bi's have issues.

Pardon me. I apologize for taking all the humor out of your "comedy." Polyamorous marriages are as important to poly people as gay marriage is to gay people. And--this may sound familiar to you--I think all people over the age of consent are entitled to marry whomever they love.

But do feel free to laugh at me and my relationships AND blame such things for the bi/gay "issues." But there's something rattling around in my head at the moment about pots and kettles....

 

[gloriann]

I was not laughing at anyone, and I apologize if it came across as if I was.

And I do believe that anyone over the age of consent should be allowed to marry anyone they love.

I did put a disclaimer at the beginning of my post that I am not as antagonistic as I appear to be. The marriage issue is just a hot button issue for me of late; perhaps I should not have posted immediately after waking up, prior to my first cup of coffee (I take my coffee black, said the pot to the kettle.)

 

[Stella_Omega]

Two things;

Yes, it's true that Bi people can pass as straight and enjoy hetero privileges.

NOT if the Bi person has fallen in love with someone of the same sex.

And plural marriages could just as easily be same sex as not.

 

[emap]

The whole allowing same sex marriage is like allowing poly marriages is simply the religious wackjobs trying to get people to go oh my god no way. Simple really, most of the country is christian of one sort or another and none of them not even mormon anymore say guys can marry as many women as they want.

 

[BiBunny]

Two things;
NOT if the Bi person has fallen in love with someone of the same sex.

And plural marriages could just as easily be same sex as not.

Absolutely, to both points.

 

[SalzbergPage]

Two things;
NOT if the Bi person has fallen in love with someone of the same sex.

And plural marriages could just as easily be same sex as not.

Quite right. Points taken. I also left out that group relationships which are not marriage focused can be committed (i.e. polymonogamy).

 

[BiBunny]

Quite right. Points taken. I also left out that group relationships which are not marriage focused can be committed (i.e. polymonogamy).

The word you're actually looking for is polyfidelty. I, personally, identify as more or less polyfidelitous.

 

[SalzbergPage]

The word you're actually looking for is polyfidelty. I, personally, identify as more or less polyfidelitous.

Oh, thanks. That's very helpful.