Gay vs. Bi Relations

[SalzbergPage]

The word you're actually looking for is polyfidelty. I, personally, identify as more or less polyfidelitous.

My partner and I are talking about poly possibilities now, though we need to talk more about whether those possibilities are really poly or more swinger like. We've been together for a year now and it's going wonderfully. The last person I was with knew about but was not comfortable with my queer orientation, and also wasn't really into sex, so this is much much better.
If it's ok to ask, what has your experience been like and how did you move toward polyfidelity? Also, feel free to ask whatever

 

[BiBunny]

Oh, thanks. That's very helpful.

You're welcome.

To answer your other question, I was actually the one joining the established couple. Feel free to PM me with any questions you might have, so we don't hijack the thread.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Hey Folks,

Thanks for this excellent discussion. You all make some really good points.

Among other things I'm very interested in how people can band together despite some internal divisions to reach broader political goals. I'm also interested in bi/lesbian, and sometimes lesbian/trans and black/white woman conflicts where there could be coalitions or simply friendly co-existence.
A few things (please don't mind the numbering, trying to keep my thoughts ordered):

You are so right to separate out the Bi and Poly/Monogamy issues.

1. In a monogamous context: I don't understand why people think that a Bi person is more likely to cheat or leave you for someone of the opposite sex. When a straight/lesbian/gay person is in a monogamous relationship they don't stop being attracted to other women/women/men just because they are with you, so why would a Bi person's continuing attraction to other people be any more problematic? Yes, they aren't getting sex with someone of a sex/gender different than their partner's, so that some of their desires are not being met, but isn't that the case in most monogamous relationships?

Unless you stop being attracted to anyone but your partner, one partner will never be able to do or be everything you might want. If you like breasts then there will always be other pairs out there; couples who love and stay together don’t always share the same kinks; if you are both perfectly happy with each other then other people are still different and will be attractive and will be something you're missing out on. (I’m not saying there's any problem at all with choosing to 'miss out' on those other things to enjoy monogamy btw, and poly people ‘miss out’ too, on some aspects of monogamy, in order to enjoy other good things). Any choice leaves other choices out and that, by itself, doesn't lead to cheating. It's no different for bi people.

2. I'm not entirely comfortable with 'bi' as a label since it implies there are only two genders, which is inaccurate. I'd be comfortable with it if there was a recognition that there are multiple genders and that the bi person was only attracted to two of them, but that's not the underlying assumption.

3. I think people often get uncomfortable with bi folks and treat them as if they are 'really' straight or 'really' gay/lesbian when partnered in the relevant way. This can be a form of homophobia when straight folks make mental excuses for/accept bi people by pretending they are straight. It is also a form of silencing and exclusion when bi people aren't deemed 'gay enough' or 'one of us' in LG communities.

4. Yes, it's true that Bi people can pass as straight and enjoy hetero privileges. I don't know what to say about that except that most Bi people I know are honest and open about it and not trying to pass. Since race was brought up by the OP, note the similarity in situations where light skinned Black people are sometimes treated as 'not black enough' in their own communities (where they are usually not white enough either, in white communities. Not straight enough, not gay enough. Lol.)

5. As for how to work together? Communication has to be the biggest thing. Getting to know some people from another group, listening widely to their experiences without assuming that ‘I’ know all the answers, being willing to get called on my own prejudice, asking another person what they need or want, being willing to stand up for my own boundaries and for what I know and need and want. Hmm, lol, maybe everyone should just fill in BDSM questionnaires and
I don’t know the answers for how to make this all happen, but I think really getting to know ourselves, let go of judging ourselves, forgiving and loving ourselves first goes a very very long way toward being able to work with each other across potential divides. (I like meditation, some 12 step program type things, good friends I can trust for this kind of growing). And I think mediators often ask people to look for common interests and work from that starting point – so LGBT people have some of those interests in securing civil rights, living violence free, etc = if we can keep that in mind there might be some common ground.
Also, we can recognize not only the tension between these groups but also all the very successful coalition building and accepting friendships that do occur and not only see the sniping =D

Enough of a rant? It’s my first post here – hope that’s ok! Either way I really enjoy listening to you all.

I HATE it when new people leave short, fluff posts like this just to build post count!

JUST KIDDING! Thank you for your in depth, insightful post. You made some very good points.

I think that the one thing I'd add to your "how to work together" section would be that we ALL need to understand that there is a place for righteous anger, but we need to aim it outwards toward the asshats that want to keep ALL of us down. A homophobic bigot doesn't care less if your bi or 110% lesbian.... we are all queer scum to them and they want to eradicate us from the face of the earth. Fighting THAT is why we need to band together.

 

[gloriann]

Excellent point.

 

[Fallenfromgrace]

Fighting THAT is why we need to band together.

We must first stop fighting each other.

 

[MichelleWhoIs]

Just injecting another thought

For many years, I too identified as Bi but when I found this explanation I found it to be true for me. I can't say that all will identify but maybe it will help those that fall in between all other explanations

Pansexuality is a sexual orientation characterized by the potential for aesthetic attraction, romantic love, or sexual desire for people, regardless of their gender identity or biological sex. Some pansexuals suggest that they are gender-blind; that gender and sex are insignificant or irrelevant in determining whether they will be sexually attracted to others.

The word pansexual is derived from the Greek prefix pan-, meaning "all". In its simplest form, pansexuality denotes the potential of sexual attraction to all genders and beings. It is intended to negate the idea of two genders (as expressed by bi-)

 

[gloriann]

Regarding Michelle's definition of pansexual, what is the difference between that and the term bisexual?

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Regarding Michelle's definition of pansexual, what is the difference between that and the term bisexual?

Pansexuality means that gender configurations have nothing to do with who you choose to love ie: I have been in love with an intersexed woman, a transexual male, a femme, a man. Any and all gender configurations are able to accept love and so therefore I have loved them. *nods*

Bi on the other hand breaks the genders down in to male/female...that's it...that's all.

 

[gloriann]

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Thank you for the clarification.

You are welcome...

 

[Stella_Omega]

Pansexuality means that gender configurations have nothing to do with who you choose to love ie: I have been in love with an intersexed woman, a transexual male, a femme, a man. Any and all gender configurations are able to accept love and so therefore I have loved them. *nods*

Bi on the other hand breaks the genders down in to male/female...that's it...that's all.

Thanks for the reminder! I've been using 'bi' for a while simply because the people I've been talking to are confused enough as it is... My style is to get people to accept one thing at a time.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

My style is to get people to accept one thing at a time.

On the money as usual...(i do the same)

I knew I semi stalker lusted you for a reason.

 

[infinity706]

Two things;
NOT if the Bi person has fallen in love with someone of the same sex.

And plural marriages could just as easily be same sex as not.

Any marriage with more than 2 people has to fall under same sex marriage since at least 2 of the people will be of the same sex.

 

[Stella_Omega]

On the money as usual...(i do the same)

I knew I semi stalker lusted you for a reason.

Oooh, mutual stalking lusties! For me it was a combo of your picture and something you wrote back when I first joined i think...

Any marriage with more than 2 people has to fall under same sex marriage since at least 2 of the people will be of the same sex.

I wish it were that easy.

I need to warn you, not knowing you, your gender or your stake in this game; but we all of us are pretty sore and battered, one way or another. It can be very unkind, making jokes like this one. My first instinct is to rip your head off for it.

I am sure you are simply trying to keep the atmosphere light-- however, making light of other people's heartbreak isn't going to go anywhere good.

Sympathy-- that's a different matter. You do have to make sure though, that your sympathy is spoken in the simplest terms possible, since sad and angry people are lousy at figuring out that someone meant kindly-- it's your job to minimise misunderstanding, not theirs.

Okay?

 

[gloriann]

"...we are all of us pretty bruised and battered..." Isn't that the truth? I could wax prolific on that very adroit piece of commentary, but I think I'd rather just say: emphasis on "we."

 

[Safe_Bet]

"...we are all of us pretty bruised and battered..." Isn't that the truth? I could wax prolific on that very adroit piece of commentary, but I think I'd rather just say: emphasis on "we."

yeah... what she said!

 

[MichelleWhoIs]

Sorry, about adding the term about being pan to the discussion. I didn't mean to add to confusion about the issue of being Bi. You and Luna are right in keeping to the issue at hand. There are too many people that are confused enough about definition of sexuality without adding to the fray.

 

[Netzach]

Anyone can pass as anything. Hordes of people were passing and distancing themselves from the pioneers of queer life for decades. See The Naked Civil Servant for an example of pre-liberation passing versus not.

This is a non issue, and a lame excuse for treating bi's like shit. And yes, I think "treated like shit" is a fair assessment sometimes. I *still* fight my ass off for lesbian rights though because I realize that assholes form a minority in any demographic. And the attitudes being discussed form some of the cornerstones of beliefs I find tiresome and alienating and divisive.

I can understand where they might come from, but I'm really not personally responsible for Girls Gone Wild, k?

Anyone can lead anyone on. This is a lame accusation, because look, I've seen lesbians and gay guys burn each other just as badly in relationships as straight people, as bisexuals with each other - it's purely human shit. Some bis are mono, some are poly, some are liars, and some are as honest as the day is freaking long but some people don't listen or think they're going to convert a bisexual into a monosexual, or a poly person into a mono. Um, no. No more than you're gonna make me into a straight MAN.

Learn to communicate in your relationships and learn to avoid people who don't do this - don't rely on a stereotype to reverse engineer why your relationship with someone didn't work, it's lazy. I think I've seen this happen every time a doomed relationship between a lesbian who can't cope with bisexuals and a real kinsey 3.5 ensues. This will only end in tears in beer. I'm smart enough to know this, and I fuck other bisexuals to my knowledge exclusively because I know this. Men or women or whatever else - monosexuals and me = epic fail.

I don't have to consider someone fuck-compatible with me to care about her rights or fight for them though. The assumption that these aspects of my life would have to line up perfectly is flawed.

Why is it assumed that for me to say I'm straight and hide what I am it's less like cutting off my arm and pretending to be something I'm not than for you?

Just because it might be easier for me to pass, doesn't make it more roomy in the closet. Jews can say they're not Jewish when the shit hits the fan, but no one would say that anti-semitism doesn't matter. The assumption that I would not go down with the ship is damned insulting. And the assumption that it's my bisexuality and not my character that would determine that is - well, it's even more insulting.

That's fine though, because I'm still screaming and writing for you to be able to be married and have better representation in medical literature and studies, and for woman on woman violence to be acknowledged in DV response better and a whole host of issues. I don't feel like because one of the mean girls snubbed me once that it colors how the rest of the lesbians I know see me or what they deserve of rights.

I'm queer. Bi implies two genders and that's so not the world I live in.

What that boils down to is that I can and have fallen in love with a woman, but much more. I'm really gender blind in attraction. MTF, FTM, intersex, and bio dude - I've done and would do anyone I wanted to, and I would marry anyone I wanted to (God willing one day this could be done) and I would love anyone I love.

I *happen* to be with bio guys. Three of them. All of them bisexual and varying shades of queer to genderfucked. So obviously some of the heteronormative programming didn't take here too well and there aren't good words for what I am. Suffice it to say that when you're married to a man you're worried about getting gay bashed when he goes out with his boyfriend, but you hope for the best, you've kind of left the straight world, huh? The marriage - I was conflicted about it. Most of my queer friends were getting married right around that time though, even if not recognized by the state, and then I got sick and the health insurance allowed me to live to fight another day. It literally had to come down to life and death for me to not hold out till everyone everywhere in the US could get married. That was my hope long before a bunch of celebrities made it the thing of the minute.

I'm also very poly, about as hard wired thus as a body can be. And I don't give a flying fuck if lesbian monogamous people have a problem with that any more than the right wing gestapo, anyone who does can kiss my behind. For all the energy I've put into queer equality and quality of life in my lifetime, go ahead. Tell me I'm dragging down the movement. Please.

I've *never* led a woman on or a man, in that I've always explained exactly what I'm about who I'm with and how I am up front. When lesbians refuse to listen to me and feel burned I've always been accused of being all kinds of things. When men refuse to listen and feel burned, I dunno what they think. Maybe they tell their friends I'm a slut, but whatever, I explained this all within the first date.

 

[Netzach]

Sorry, about adding the term about being pan to the discussion. I didn't mean to add to confusion about the issue of being Bi. You and Luna are right in keeping to the issue at hand. There are too many people that are confused enough about definition of sexuality without adding to the fray.

I don't buy that at all.

The T element of the community is constantly being told "oh we'll get to your rights in a minute, dear. Please, mustn't confuse them."

Anything that stifles voices and experiences in the name of getting ahead is not OK to me. I don't mind having a simplified explanation for audiences on a need-to-know basis if we're talking to the press, but this is a queer discussion, yes? And some of us are simply saying, you know, I have a partner who's kind of a gender other, and I'd like to be able to express that in stating my affectional identity.

 

[vrosej10]

See? Another person who thinks that "BI" is the same thing as "Poly."

Are all bisexual women polyamorous? (we are not talking about men here, remember)

These assumptions about bisexuals being incapable of monogamy shit me endlessly. I am bisexual. Really bisexual. I have been happily married and faithful for nearly twenty years. Just because I enjoy both genders sexually doesn't mean I neccessarily have to have both at once. I can be monogamous. The presumption the the behaviour of one in a minority is representitive of the minority of the whole is bogus and flawed and unfortunately popular.

 

[RebeccaRose]

I have always felt so incredibly lucky to have some how dodged a hell of a lot of the prejudice and discrimination any number of queer people have to face.

Its probably not relevant to the discussion, although I'm going to say it anyway hehe... but I've found a lot of discrimination is geographical. For example, the county I first lived in in England, although I didn't realise it at the time, is very intolerant of difference. I have friends who I used to know and love back there but going back, even though some of them are indeed gay, I often can't believe the ignorance that comes out of their mouths. Where as where I live now I haven't noticed nearly as much of this.

Honestly, there is always a minority that spoils it, but I totally agree with who ever was talking about “ignoring it”. I know now I am who I am and I could never let any one get away with saying anything bad about the way I live my life. In fact, that sentence says it all for me. MY life. Why should anyone care what, how, who, why I do what I do? It makes very little sense to me. Can someone explain why people feel like they need to be involved when quite clearly something doesn't need their input?

I want to bring the subject of my twin sister into the discussion for a moment if I may. We are very different people, despite looking the same, and liking a lot of the same things. In fact, she is pretty much straight, or rather “gay for pay” if that makes any sense haha. What I'm trying to say here is that people automatically assume that people who are even slightly alike in a couple of the views, opinions, lifestyle, etc are always the same. For instance, people who meet my sister first couldn't care less whether I'm a lesbian or not, and mostly don't ask for that matter, where as if someone meets me first and it happens to come up in conversation, I wish I could say they didn't treat her like “the sister of that lesbian” you know?

I'm a firm believer in, if someone wants to know, or it comes up naturally in conversation then they have every right to be told, but aside from that my lifestyle is MY lifestyle and I don't see any need to it to be a problem to anyone. I like to think I'm still a nice enough girl either way Of course, I get the same problems that have been discussed by other posters here because I have some what alternative piercings [and tattoos]. It seems that the way I look gives people the right to assume that I'm no good [or for that matter “butch” regardless of whether I'm really rather a girly girl] and indeed I've been accuse for being “poly” [as if its a bad thing] because of this as well. Its not at all isolated to anyone kind of person. There is always some dick head who feels the need to spoil things for the rest of us.

I always try to disassociate myself from people like this. Frankly I'm done with trying to panda to people. Its true, I could vary easily act straight if I felt the need, even though anyone who cares could easily tell that I'm not, but then again I would never want to or be forced to. However, there is a sliding scale, for example, my girlfriend's parents, as far as I know, don't know we are gay and I understand Jen's need for us to stay quiet as they aren't anywhere near ready as far as I can tell to take the truth, but if confronted I would never deny what I am. I think I may be slightly off topic here in a sense but the issue I'm trying to raise here is, even though I've chosen a rather off topic example, that things should ALWAYS be taken on a case by case basis. Its an awkward situation but I love my gf's parents, despite their issues... you see what I'm trying to say here is that we can discuss gay/bi relations till the cows come home but we will always be placing blame on a minority, whether we intend to or not. And I frankly don't want to do such a thing.

One person is always different from another person.

 

[JoshuaGlynn]

I have always said I see myself as a people person... I tend to fall in love with / find myself attracted to the person... regardless of their sex...

That generally means I have to get to know someone first, and yes that means I have never had the classic idea of a one night stand. It is just the way I'm wired I guess.

But I have always been very loyal to the person I'm with. I always get irritated when I hear from gay guys... and I have heard it very often, that "they could never get into a relationship with someone who is Bi because they would always be worried they would cheat on them." It is a psychological knee jerk reaction the moment the term Bisexual is thrown into the mix.

I think that changeling that perception is is an individual thing. Each person has to be willing to see past the ingrained psychologoical and except people for who they are, and not what you think they are going to be!

That will be a tough sell... especially here in America. We can be stubborn folk, set in our ways...

Joshua

PS... Sweet I just noticed.... this is post 69!!! LOL

 

[Fallenfromgrace]

The look on people's faces when i mention 'my partner' and then refer to my partner as 'she'.

- there are some people who are trained not to react- my nightline co-ordinator was stoic when we had the conversation, which was good. Then there are others who involuntarily raise their eyebrows in surprise as if to say ''an indian lesbian? surely there's no such thing!''

I had the other day ''you don't look like a smoker'' i was *this* close to saying ''do i look like a lesbian?''

The point is, as a sexual minority- and i mean LGBT as a whole, we will always be the Red Herring, the fly in the ointment of humanity. The fact is that we have to deal with it, rise above it and get the fuck over it. No it's not fair, but life isnt. What we can do is challenge it, constructively, not like toddlers in a temper tantrum.

And some of us are challenging it constructively. I don't deny it.

 

[John Doe]

Re: most of the posts in here, TL;DR.

 

[dear_prudence]

I don't feel discriminated against, though I don't go around saying hey I'm a bisexual woman either. Which is actually I think part of the problem, it's kinda obvious who the gay men are, and the butch lesbians, but it's hard to tell who is bi and who isn't. Doesn't help that science can't figure out either, they step one way then the other on the whole issue.

Though to be honest I think as a whole the problem that bisexuals straights and gays have with each other is in who they want to bed. A straight man can understand a lesbian cause he wants the same thing she does, a straight woman can understand a gay man because she wants the same thing. They are both sticking to one sex and it makes perfectly good sense to them. Bisexuals on the other hand really like Steve, and they really like Jane and then everybody goes well darnit pick one cause society or well rather religion says one spouse. It confuses the hell out of people when they have the one spouse and this other person has two spouses, they get jealous and go why the hell can't I have that.

Course that's a seriously simplified version of it, but ah well you get the idea I hope.

i get what you're saying

imo if the girl i'm with is okay with the guy i'm with, who is okay with the girl i'm with... isn't that just between us and not for anyone else to make judgements on?

unfortunately i'm not in that situation right now....