Gay vs. Bi Relations

[HarlotMinx]

Well, I think that the LGBT is actually rather divided among itself once you get down past the gay/straight interactions and rights (one of the few things LGBT join together on) I mean, yes there's a divide between the bi community and the gay/lesbian community not to mention out bi males are just as rare as 'bi' women are common. But really is it just gay/lesbian and bi? I mean both the gay and the lesbian community have a pronounced discomfort with the trans community, especially when it comes to trans men who identify as gay and trans women who view themselves as lesbian. And worse still many trans women who are attracted to men are viewed to be closet gay or their counterparts who are attracted to women. And even between the gay and lesbian community you'll find a quite noticeable chasm, the two tend to keep pretty damn far apart when not working together for some cause and rarely interact if they can help it. I think that the one major thing holding the LGBT back is that none of them can relate to each other... well except for a few select groups on a limited basis like gender queer lesbians and gays can somewhat associate with trans. I think this has bred a inherent desire for the separate communities to stay aloof of each other.

I have no clue what the solution is but it's rare you see the communities put aside their differences and come together. I mean even within the gay community or the lesbian communities you'll find strong ethnic and social barriers. Take HRC for example, until fairly recently not only did it only represent the LG it only represented a select portion of the lg and had absolutely zero ethnic board members. I think bridges need to be built and their needs to be outreach among the groups, especially to the B and the T who maybe the LG can't always relate to but like it or not are on the same boat.

 

[emap]

I'm just gonna state the obvious, hate me later.

The different parts of the LGBT community face the exact same problem with each part of itself as they do with the 'straights.' Namely for the most part, nobody understands why this group like that sex and not this sex. Course B's are stuck in the middle with all sides going you guys suck pick one or go away.

The sad part, bisexuals, actual bisexuals who like both sexes are the ones most in touch with what each side see's, except maybe for the transsexuals cause liking men and women in bed doesn't do diddly squat for understanding what it's like to have man parts and feel like a woman or other way around. Though you gotta admit, transsexuals have it slightly better in the legal department, they can be reclassified as male or female and get married, unless they are a male to female lesbian who gets reclassified.

Just cause ya'll are gonna hate me for saying this anyway may as well keep going. Most of the problems with homosexuals in legal and society circles boil down to religion.

 

[HarlotMinx]

Though you gotta admit, transsexuals have it slightly better in the legal department, they can be reclassified as male or female and get married, unless they are a male to female lesbian who gets reclassified.

Sadly that's a misconception, many can't because not all states allow for gender changes.

 

[Riley_James]

I have no clue what the solution is but it's rare you see the communities put aside their differences and come together. I mean even within the gay community or the lesbian communities you'll find strong ethnic and social barriers. Take HRC for example, until fairly recently not only did it only represent the LG it only represented a select portion of the lg and had absolutely zero ethnic board members. I think bridges need to be built and their needs to be outreach among the groups, especially to the B and the T who maybe the LG can't always relate to but like it or not are on the same boat.[/QUOTE]


I heartily agree. Being an out bisexual to everyone in my life for the past ten years, I have to say that I feel the divide most every time I enter into a coversation about preferences anywhere on the net. IMHO I can't see how anyone will give "our" community the respect it deserves when we can't even respect each other. Even last night on this board I posted something about not giving yourself a label and someone automatically flamed me because they said we needed to own our titles. Respect for everyone's personal preferences has to be the first step I think...that and a little bit of compassion. I for one think that it would go a long way to healing that huge divide.

Riley

 

[none2_none2]

...

Just cause ya'll are gonna hate me for saying this anyway may as well keep going. Most of the problems with homosexuals in legal and society circles boil down to religion.

I'm sorry, but I would have to disagree here. It would be wrong to say religion doesn't play a role. However, there is an equally powerful force against homosexuals -- at least as it relates to male homosexuality. The very thought of kissing another man, loving another man, a man's penis in another man's ass or mouth. These things revolt many straight men (especially younger ones) regardless of whether they have a religious background or not.

I think the root cause is really sexism. No matter how wonderful some young man's mother is, when guys are around just each other they tend to objectify women as "receptacles" for their needs. Their internal belief that "penises" rule, is challenged when you have a guy who desires another guy. Until a guy gets to some level of maturity (some never do) that another man's sexuality is no threat to their own, this homophobia continues to exist.

I'm also still one to contend, for example, that all these bi-men that crave cock, but find men unattractive physically and emotionally are more a symptom of this same homophobia than a declaration of honesty. To not be completely straight means a crack in the ranks and file of males in regards to their masculinity. You must do everything to eradicate it, minimize it, or at least drive it out of the ranks. To accept a gay man as an equal would be too much of a threat.

 

[HarlotMinx]

I'm sorry, but I would have to disagree here. It would be wrong to say religion doesn't play a role. However, there is an equally powerful force against homosexuals -- at least as it relates to male homosexuality. The very thought of kissing another man, loving another man, a man's penis in another man's ass or mouth. These things revolt many straight men (especially younger ones) regardless of whether they have a religious background or not.

I think the root cause is really sexism. No matter how wonderful some young man's mother is, when guys are around just each other they tend to objectify women as "receptacles" for their needs. Their internal belief that "penises" rule, is challenged when you have a guy who desires another guy. Until a guy gets to some level of maturity (some never do) that another man's sexuality is no threat to their own, this homophobia continues to exist.

I'm also still one to contend, for example, that all these bi-men that crave cock, but find men unattractive physically and emotionally are more a symptom of this same homophobia than a declaration of honesty. To not be completely straight means a crack in the ranks and file of males in regards to their masculinity. You must do everything to eradicate it, minimize it, or at least drive it out of the ranks. To accept a gay man as an equal would be too much of a threat.

Eh, I think that's a bit simplified. And that assumes that homophobia is only a issue because of men but there is no shortage of homophobic females. I think the root cause has less to do with sexism.... well maybe but in a more broader sense. I think it has to do more with social gender expectations in general.

 

[none2_none2]

Since I brought up sexism, I did want to mention something else that caught me off guard the other day. I was bored, but had to wait for a prescription at a pharmacy within a grocery store. Thus, I found myself reading in the magazine section. It was some scientific magazine and the particular article I was reading about was about Neanderthals. They brought up that one of the things that could have helped with their demise was the lack of gender division of labor. Early Homo Sapiens were hunter (male activity)/gatherer (female & children activity) cultures. Where as they think with Neanderthals, everybody was involved with the hunt. (Sorry, but I forget how they came to that conclusion.)

My point is, that I find sexism as a real problem in our culture. Yet, it may be the very foundation of our species that allowed us to flourish. Sure we can say as world societies are today, we can afford a more egalitarian society. However, all it would take would be a disaster (man-made or not) such as major pandemic, nuclear war, asteroid, etc., and we might go back to needing our original way of life. I pity gays or anybody else who doesn't like or fit the norms if that ever happens.

 

[gloriann]

I have no idea how to respond to that last post. I mean, seriously?

 

[none2_none2]

Eh, I think that's a bit simplified. And that assumes that homophobia is only a issue because of men but there is no shortage of homophobic females. I think the root cause has less to do with sexism.... well maybe but in a more broader sense. I think it has to do more with social gender expectations in general.

The reason I didn't bring up women wasn't because I believe similar gender expectations don't exist from women. Rather because I don't know it as intimately. For instance, many men think that lesbianism is cool and that is it more of a sexual diversion and kink than a flaw of sexuality or perversion.

I don't know how a lot of straight women feel about it. The few that I have heard discuss it had rather unconventional ideas. Many of them felt that it was because the woman was abused by men: abusive father, abusive husband/boyfriends, perhaps even sexual abuse. So that the lesbianism was more out of fear of men than some perversion. Some also felt that the problem was that some women are just naturally unattractive or lacking in feminine social graces to attract a man. No man would ever approach them. Thus such women take solace from women in a similar situation. I've also heard some feel that they figured that it was due to hormonal issues during puberty.

Please realize that the straight women that I know tended to be from older generations. Thus you may find these ideas funny and odd, yet they aren't so uncommon among older women. Also I have heard that there are some feminists that see lesbianism more as the only way to have a loving relationship of equals in a male dominated society.

I'm sure that there are straight women who would easily be disgusted by lesbianism. However, from my limited view I would have summarized it more as pity than disgust. Pity for the woman who can't get a man due to fear, unattractiveness, or unlady-like mannerisms.

==========
Note: I want to emphasize that it is NOT my view that lesbianism is perverse or limited to females in fear of men, or females who are undesirable. If I had just one sentence to describe how I see lesbianism as an outsider, I would say: "Lesbianism simply is (exists)."

 

[Safe_Bet]

Like Gloriann said, I have no idea how to respond to that last post, other than to say "Damn dude, make unfounded assumptions much?"

 

[HarlotMinx]

The reason I didn't bring up women wasn't because I believe similar gender expectations don't exist from women. Rather because I don't know it as intimately. For instance, many men think that lesbianism is cool and that is it more of a sexual diversion and kink than a flaw of sexuality or perversion.

I don't know how a lot of straight women feel about it. The few that I have heard discuss it had rather unconventional ideas. Many of them felt that it was because the woman was abused by men: abusive father, abusive husband/boyfriends, perhaps even sexual abuse. So that the lesbianism was more out of fear of men than some perversion. Some also felt that the problem was that some women are just naturally unattractive or lacking in feminine social graces to attract a man. No man would ever approach them. Thus such women take solace from women in a similar situation. I've also heard some feel that they figured that it was due to hormonal issues during puberty.

Please realize that the straight women that I know tended to be from older generations. Thus you may find these ideas funny and odd, yet they aren't so uncommon among older women. Also I have heard that there are some feminists that see lesbianism more as the only way to have a loving relationship of equals in a male dominated society.

I'm sure that there are straight women who would easily be disgusted by lesbianism. However, from my limited view I would have summarized it more as pity than disgust. Pity for the woman who can't get a man due to fear, unattractiveness, or unlady-like mannerisms.

==========
Note: I want to emphasize that it is NOT my view that lesbianism is perverse or limited to females in fear of men, or females who are undesirable. If I had just one sentence to describe how I see lesbianism as an outsider, I would say: "Lesbianism simply is (exists)."

Well unfortunately quite a few women have quite strong and vehement reactions against lesbians. Actually I kind of feel why gays get a more public disapproval has to do a bit with sexism against men from both men and women. While it's true men have privilege in our society we often forget that those of privilege can be discriminated against as well. So while men have most of the social power they have little to no social power to act in any manner out of a constrained gender role. It's amazing how many women don't realize that the reason many men act like... well men instead of individuals is under social pressure to conform to a majority and not because they're bad people or jerks perse. It's hard to fight against something that's been instilled on you all your life. Frankly I think men need a masculinist movement or more support from the feminist movement.

 

[gloriann]

I think there are gender expectations about women made by women. Getting married and having children are two on the top of the list. While things are surely changing, those expectations still exist. You can still do versions of those things as a lesbian, but it's not expected.

 

[none2_none2]

Like Gloriann said, I have no idea how to respond to that last post, other than to say "Damn dude, make unfounded assumptions much?"

Those weren't my assumptions. It was in regards to an science magazine article I read on the subject of the factors that may have led to the demise of the Neanderthals vs the rise of Homo Sapiens. This was not somebody's interpretation of the Bible or some other religion's creation story.

I'm simply stating that some of us (not necessarily limited to gays) might not like the rigid gender roles even if those very roles may have kept us from going the way of the Neanderthals.

As someone who moved to the country just a year and a half ago, I can personally attest that I do NOT like killing animals. I still don't even have the heart to kill the surplus cocks we have. (Perhaps I would feel different if I was skinny and on the verge of starvation, but that isn't my condition.) This dislike of killing is why I'm trying to raise animals where there is no killing involved -- i.e. fur bearing animals like alpacas.

It was naive of me to not realize that with livestock, males are always in excess since you really need so few of them. Perhaps from a lifetime of buying pre-packaged meat at a grocery store or eating meat in a restaurant, I simply choose to ignore the truth of how that meat got to my plate.

I have been faced with killing in the last two weeks. I had black snake crawl down from the top of the garage where I keep some chickens. Because of the creep factor I have always had with snakes, it didn't freak me out to kill it -- other than my heart was racing because it WAS a snake. It had to be done because even though they are not poisonous, they do eat eggs and young chicks.

I was more bothered by the second round of killings that I had to do. We have had a rash of birds disappear lately. I ended up shooting a large horned owl. I didn't kill it, but it could no longer fly. It fell out of the tree. Some how it ended up able to crawl towards me for a few feet and then just stare at me. I know it may sound silly but I felt like it was purposely looking at me in shock wondering why I had shot it.

Then later that same night, the dog barked on the back side of the barn where we have had a rash of chickens disappear. I ended up killing a pair of raccoons that the dog had sniffed out. One of them actually cried before it died. Again, I had to kill them because it is either them or my livestock. There was no mistake that they were eating the chickens because I found parts of the missing chickens where they were nesting. I guess someone could argue that I could have trapped them and then released them somewhere else. The answer to that is that I had no idea what was making the chickens disappear, I had no traps, I needed to protect my chickens then and there.

With all the logic I use for my justification for killing these predators, it still bothered me. I don't have to see a shrink about it. I'm just saying that it bothered me.

Perhaps that is a good thing. I wouldn't want to be the kind of person who enjoyed a kill. When I heard people (mainly guys) talk about how great hunting is, I couldn't for the life of me understand that. Now as someone who has had to kill, I will never be able to relate to people that see hunting as a recreational pleasure.

I can kill if I have to, but I don't enjoy it. If I were ever put into a culture where men were expected to take a wife and daily help the other men kill animals to feed the community in order for the community to survive, I'd be miserable. Personally, I know that the killing would bother me a whole lot more than the thought of a relationship with the opposite sex.

 

[Anomily]

I first read this thread a few weeks ago and the question has been popping up in my head a lot whenever I allow my mind to wander. I don't by any means believe that I have the answer but I have an idea as to why the gay/lesbian communities might have a problem with bisexuals. I'll warn you now, it's a story about my own immaturity and I can understand anyone who gets angry or offended at the views I used to have. I look back and shake my head but if it'll add to the discussion I can live with it.

I was brought up in a household that, while not at all religious, was still fairly traditional - mom, dad, me and 2 brothers. The expectation was that I was being raised to live a normal life in which I would grow up, get married, and pop out a couple of kids. I was really okay with that and really looked forward to it, especially the kids part, I always felt like a natural mother. I still don't know how accurate that is not actually having any kids yet but that's neither here nor there. My point is that when at around the age of 16 I admitted to myself (and no one else for about another 2 years) that I was bisexual I made a decision. I wasn't going to let a little thing like that keep me from having kids. It was important to me for reasons I don't really understand that they be the biological children of me and my partner so while I might "experiment" with girls I would never date one seriously. I can see how that attitude would piss off lesbians (and really anyone) to no end - you're good enough to fuck but never love? What the hell?

So yeah, if that's the kind of bi's you encounter, for sure I can see where resentment could develop. For the record I outgrew it. While I still have never had a girlfriend it's not because I'm discounting the possibility, it just hasn't happened. The only women I've been with have been in already established non-monogamous relationships with the understanding that it wasn't going to develop into anything serious by mutual agreement and that's been fine with me, I'm not looking for a long-term partner, male or female, right now anyway.

 

[gloriann]

Yeah, I think at lest part of it, Anomily: lesbians get upset because often, in this day and age, the "bi" part of our subculture isn't really bi at all; "good enough to fuck but not to love." That's not bi, that's being sexually open. There's a difference. Just because two people of the same gender fuck, that doesn't necessarily make them bi.

I've asked this question of people who are trying to decide if they're straight, gay, or bi (and I may have mentioned this before, pardon if I'm repeating myself): which gender can you see yourself living the rest of your life with? I think that's a better determining factor than "who are you willing to fuck?"

 

[HarlotMinx]

Yeah, I think at lest part of it, Anomily: lesbians get upset because often, in this day and age, the "bi" part of our subculture isn't really bi at all; "good enough to fuck but not to love." That's not bi, that's being sexually open. There's a difference. Just because two people of the same gender fuck, that doesn't necessarily make them bi.

bi·sex·u·al (b-sksh-l)
adj.
1. Of or relating to both sexes.
2.
a. Having both male and female reproductive organs; hermaphroditic.
b. Botany Denoting a single flower that contains functional staminate and pistillate structures; perfect.
3. Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of either sex.
n.
1. A bisexual organism; a hermaphrodite.
2. A bisexual person.

Unless they aren't sexually attracted at all (for example, if someone were extremely drunk) it kind of does make a person bisexual... just not a pretty side of it.

Personally I think it all comes down to something simpler. LGBT often see the world as us and them. And lets face it, a lot of LGBT people space themselves and draw barriers between straight people and them, quite a few don't like relating at all with straight people when it comes to sexuality. So is it any surprise that when someone comes along who has a foot in both doors, the community might cringe? I've noticed a tendency among gays and lesbians to try and get bisexuals to pick sides and stick to a single side of the fence. Now of course this isn't universally true to any extent... but I would say it's a trend.

 

[gloriann]

Harlotminx, I will respectfully disagree with some of what you said. Being gay, bi, straight does not only relate to the gender you like to sleep with; for me, it has more to do with the heart, the mind, and the willingness to commit.

It's been discussed many times how gays oftentimes treat bisexuals, and you're correct on that point. The hetero privelege and all that. Simply, I refuse to share my hard earned respect with some woman who simply wants the experience of having sex with another woman, and especially not with a woman who titillates a man by having sex with another woman. True sexuality, in my book, has more to do with the brain and heart and intention than the genitals.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Personally I think it all comes down to something simpler. LGBT often see the world as us and them. And lets face it, a lot of LGBT people space themselves and draw barriers between straight people and them, quite a few don't like relating at all with straight people when it comes to sexuality. So is it any surprise that when someone comes along who has a foot in both doors, the community might cringe? I've noticed a tendency among gays and lesbians to try and get bisexuals to pick sides and stick to a single side of the fence. Now of course this isn't universally true to any extent... but I would say it's a trend.

I think it is anything but simple. I think it is DAMN complex. You are dealing with mental, physical and emotional interactions of the highest order and that generates a huge number of variable. Some of it IS based on a dislike of straights because of how, as a group, they have treated us and some of it is based on our own fears of rejections.

In my case some of it is even lack of physical attractions once I've confirmed that the chick isn't a lesbian. Sorry Bi and Het chicks don't turn me on any more than any flavor of guy does. This is most especially true if I see girls "playing at queer" to tease or titillate their boyfriends. That is just as insulting to me as a white person walking around in black face would be to a black person.

I also think that many Bi's DO need to pick either the LGBT side or the Het side though. You DON'T get to have it both ways, at least politically.

 

[HarlotMinx]

I think it is anything but simple. I think it is DAMN complex. You are dealing with mental, physical and emotional interactions of the highest order and that generates a huge number of variable. Some of it IS based on a dislike of straights because of how, as a group, they have treated us and some of it is based on our own fears of rejections.

Oh undoubtedly without question it's more complex, in reality it's so complex you would have to come up with a different answer for every single individual because nobody is going to fit in to a unified answer but I was looking for a common theme. The other issue facing bisexuals is that many people feel they're acting queer to titillate a man/woman. This issue I think is slightly validated because a lot of straight people DO pretend to be bi because it happens to be the new black. Thing is, their is plenty of genuinely bisexual people who can find attraction with either gender who are forced into "us or them" points by the community. I think politically however it's not as simple as us or them, straight politics honestly aren't anti queer politics in fact many times the two overlap. It's just that their is a small minority of the straight population that's rabidly anti queer just like their is a minority of the queer population that's rabidly anti straight.

I think your post also does characterize why a majority of the lesbian/gay community can be so anti MtF/FtM. I'm not saying you personally are just that it reflects much of the thoughts of lesbians/gays.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Oh undoubtedly without question it's more complex, in reality it's so complex you would have to come up with a different answer for every single individual because nobody is going to fit in to a unified answer but I was looking for a common theme. The other issue facing bisexuals is that many people feel they're acting queer to titillate a man/woman. This issue I think is slightly validated because a lot of straight people DO pretend to be bi because it happens to be the new black. Thing is, their is plenty of genuinely bisexual people who can find attraction with either gender who are forced into "us or them" points by the community. I think politically however it's not as simple as us or them, straight politics honestly aren't anti queer politics in fact many times the two overlap. It's just that their is a small minority of the straight population that's rabidly anti queer just like their is a minority of the queer population that's rabidly anti straight.

I think your post also does characterize why a majority of the lesbian/gay community can be so anti MtF/FtM. I'm not saying you personally are just that it reflects much of the thoughts of lesbians/gays.

What I'm refering to as "straight" politics are things like Prop 8 or pushing the Federal govt. to do away with DOMA.

As to how my post characterizes why gays/lesbians are anti TG???? 'Splain please cuz I don't see it there at all.

 

[HarlotMinx]

What I'm refering to as "straight" politics are things like Prop 8 or pushing the Federal govt. to do away with DOMA.

As to how my post characterizes why gays/lesbians are anti TG???? 'Splain please cuz I don't see it there at all.

Well I find that many gays/lesbians find FTMs/MTFs to be the bisexuals of the gender world as opposed to sexual attractions. So, FtMs for example have a hard time with gays because while many gay men may be friendly to FtM's they in many ways treat them like they would a female and interestingly so will many lesbians. I always find it interesting that a lesbian with absolutely no attraction to men what so ever would date a FtM. I mean, granted not ALL fit into this perspective but I do think that it exists just as their isn't always conflict between L/G and bi but their is to a large part. Now, again, I'm not saying you in particular safe share such an outlook but I do think the same reasoning applies to both cases. Sorry I've been on this whole trans kick but actually this all feeds back to a FtM friend of mine who identifies as gay and is having a hell of a time at it.

 

[none2_none2]

Well I find that many gays/lesbians find FTMs/MTFs to be the bisexuals of the gender world as opposed to sexual attractions. So, FtMs for example have a hard time with gays because while many gay men may be friendly to FtM's they in many ways treat them like they would a female and interestingly so will many lesbians. I always find it interesting that a lesbian with absolutely no attraction to men what so ever would date a FtM. I mean, granted not ALL fit into this perspective but I do think that it exists just as their isn't always conflict between L/G and bi but their is to a large part. Now, again, I'm not saying you in particular safe share such an outlook but I do think the same reasoning applies to both cases. Sorry I've been on this whole trans kick but actually this all feeds back to a FtM friend of mine who identifies as gay and is having a hell of a time at it.

I guess I too don't see what Safe_Bet said that you picked up on being at some level anti-trans.

Trans for most of us is very complicated. In a perfect world, EVERYBODY would love someone else for who they are on the inside, not some body parts. However, we don't live in a perfect world. That is why we have some people attracted to the opposite sex, some attracted to the same sex, etc.

Yes Trans is very complicated to understand and not the easiest thing to relate to. To say otherwise, would be to blind one's self to reality. Remember too that a lot of us (gays & lesbians) fought for years to be considered the gender we actually are despite being considered sissies, less-than-a-man, tomboy, etc by the greater society. Where as with trans we have a different group that actually wants to be the other gender.

So when you fight for something and believe it with all your heart & mind, and then you find out that some are fighting for what seems like the polar opposite, it takes time and maturity to accept that he other groups are not necessarily a threat to you or your goals.

I'll probably always be a bit uncomfortable with the subject of trans. I met a handful of transexuals (all MtF), so that is not necessarily a broad representation. Except for one, they seemed a bit mentally unstable. My point isn't the overwhelming unstable ones in my small number of experiences. Rather my point is about the one who was not:

She was the first transsexual I had met who was "normal" mentally. She wasn't making up sensational stories; she wasn't on anti-depressants; she was just being herself. She attends MCC. I used to go to an evening service they had, and we would all eat out afterwards. Over the months she opened up to us.

She was raised in a very conservative Jewish household. She was not obsessed with becoming a woman as much as just not comfortable being a man. However, the thing that stood out in her mind was that when she was just a young boy, she once put on her mothers high heals. Her mother caught her, and screamed,yelled, and spanked her. That haunted her for years, that her mother's love would be shut-off if she did something that a little "boy" shouldn't do. So from that point on she did what she was expected to do: wear men's clothing, grow up acting like a boy, and even getting married. She finally confided in her wife of her feelings that she was uncomfortable being a man. Of course, her wife turned on her. That was the last straw. She was all alone, and realized she had to live her life for herself.

She wasn't some young pretty boy who would blossom into a young pretty girl. She was in her 40's, short, a bit stocky, thinning hair, and very hairy. She went through a lot of painful processes to be transformed as best as she could be. She also didn't know whether she was gay, straight, or bi. She had been exclusively a straight man. The reason she was at MCC which is Christian based & predominately gay & lesbian (though LGBT & even straights are welcome) was because she could be herself there. When she first started the transition she dated some older men, but eventually she met a lesbian and they stayed together through the change. She was one of the most honest & caring persons I have ever known.

I admit that I do not know any transmen. I suppose, I should be attracted to them because as male attraction goes, I'm not really into penises like most gay men are supposed to be. I also have always dreamed of getting a guy pregnant. However, I am really attracted to masculine, muscular, hairy guys. While with testostrone transmen can look rather masculine, I just don't know if I would have any sexual interest in them if I were single and looking. I do look at a lot of secondary characteristics in men. Broad shoulders, hands, body/facial hair, voice, etc. Things that would be hard for a transman unless they transitioned early in life. Again, sexuality is very individual, so one shouldn't judge someone anti-trans just because they don't find trans people sexually attractive. Also keep in mind that for a good portion of men (not only gay but these other men that get on our board) they are obsessed with cock & cum and maybe balls. If that is what such a man wants, a transman will leave him very disappointed.

For those that have no idea, here is a page with some pictures of some transmen's faces:

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TransMen.html

Here is a FtM body builder:

http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/ge...sources/sexualitybodycover_files/image003.jpg

Sometimes the topic of trans still bothers me -- like when I hear there are some gay guys in Iran who are pressured to get a sex change as over there they also find it a little bit less scandalous than being gay. (Iatola Khomeini despised homosexuality, but he had compassion for transgendered people.) It also bothers me when you get someone on religion of sex. For example, the idea that your soul has gender. I never buy that crap any more than I would say my soul has a race.

However, whenever the topic starts to bother me, all I have to do is remember the one transsexual who touched me with her sincerity to know that they are just people in search of love and happiness like the rest of us. They deserve it just as much as we do.

 

[gloriann]

I thought the topic was gay/ bi relations. No offense to transmen or transwomen out there, just... lost me there...

 

[MichelleWhoIs]

I thought the topic was gay/ bi relations. No offense to trans-men or trans-women out there, just... lost me there...

Maybe the reason trans keeps coming up is because trans people, whether they are MtF or FtM, are a somewhat focal point that bring out the subject of bi vs gay/lesbian/straight. Mtf's for the most are hetero males that have a strong need to have a woman's body to match their feelings of what is in their mind. Hetero only in what sex means to them. They have been told for too many years that they will only find sexual happiness with women.

If you ask one that performs with both genders, you will most likely get a majority answer that it is because a man makes them feel more like a woman and a woman is more sensual than being with a man. Again it has nothing to do with the actual gender but all about sex.

For the few Trans MtF's that go on to having the operation and find a man that will love them and never look back at them being a male is few and far between. It is one of the reason's why there is such a high instance of suicide in the trans community. The gays and lesbians don't want them intruding into their fight for equality. The straights look at them as mentally sick individuals that carry a disease or mental condition. And all the above look at them as a threat to their sexual preferences.

And that is the root of the problem, SEXUAL PREFERENCES! Not living together, not being a good parent, not being a good partner it's what are they like in bed. There are many gay and lesbian partners living together that have committed themselves to their partner because of love and not just sex. Yes, sexual preference is one factor but it isn't the deciding factor.

If all the communities gay, lesbian, bi and trans ever go together and finally realized that they are looking for the same thing, EQUALITY and safety from the law, then it will be a glorious day. The straights won't have a leg to stand on anymore and will start to accept all.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Maybe the reason trans keeps coming up is because trans people, whether they are MtF or FtM, are a somewhat focal point that bring out the subject of bi vs gay/lesbian/straight. Mtf's for the most are hetero males that have a strong need to have a woman's body to match their feelings of what is in their mind. Hetero only in what sex means to them. They have been told for too many years that they will only find sexual happiness with women.

If you ask one that performs with both genders, you will most likely get a majority answer that it is because a man makes them feel more like a woman and a woman is more sensual than being with a man. Again it has nothing to do with the actual gender but all about sex.

For the few Trans MtF's that go on to having the operation and find a man that will love them and never look back at them being a male is few and far between. It is one of the reason's why there is such a high instance of suicide in the trans community. The gays and lesbians don't want them intruding into their fight for equality. The straights look at them as mentally sick individuals that carry a disease or mental condition. And all the above look at them as a threat to their sexual preferences.

And that is the root of the problem, SEXUAL PREFERENCES! Not living together, not being a good parent, not being a good partner it's what are they like in bed. There are many gay and lesbian partners living together that have committed themselves to their partner because of love and not just sex. Yes, sexual preference is one factor but it isn't the deciding factor.

If all the communities gay, lesbian, bi and trans ever go together and finally realized that they are looking for the same thing, EQUALITY and safety from the law, then it will be a glorious day. The straights won't have a leg to stand on anymore and will start to accept all.

I agree with everything you said (and said very well, BTW) except for the part about the L & G's not wanting TG's intruding into their fight for equality. You are only partially correct there.

The "be nice and don't make waves" asshats like Joe Solmonese and his ilk, in old main line organizations like HRC, are more concerned now days with "image" than they are human / LGBTQI rights (that plus being invited to more parties at the White House).

The rest of us DO care and we DO believe that unless it is equality for everyone in LGBTQI+, then it's not true equality. Until sexual preference and orientation is taken completely out of the HUMAN rights equation that we need to raise as much hell as possible.