Gloom, Despair and Agony on Me

[Zanzibar]

1) I restored the thread because I saw the same kind of upheaval and argumentativeness taking hold that I witnessed two years ago when YDD was upsetting a lot of people with her manner of leaving feedback. There was no disrespect intended towards them, merely noting that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Same cycle - different people as the focus.

2) I had no idea that YDD had passed away. It had been quite some time since I saw her frequent reviews and made the assumption she just decided to take another path, one which lead away from Lit. I frequent this board as my work schedule and activities permit, with sometimes months between visits. To her family and friends, my condolences.

I reiterate... my intent in bringing back this old thread was to show that while some people rant and bitch when faced with criticism they don't like, some people take a different approach. In this case, at the time, it was humor and/or sarcasm. And that was my point, and the nature of my original post in this thread 2 years ago, as well as the one that restored it.

 

[twelveoone]

none taken.

YDD was an excellent critic, and an excellent writer ( those few who had communications with her know how very good her writing skills were ).

No, she lives. Your comment says it.

 

[Angeline]

1) I restored the thread because I saw the same kind of upheaval and argumentativeness taking hold that I witnessed two years ago when YDD was upsetting a lot of people with her manner of leaving feedback. There was no disrespect intended towards them, merely noting that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Same cycle - different people as the focus.

2) I had no idea that YDD had passed away. It had been quite some time since I saw her frequent reviews and made the assumption she just decided to take another path, one which lead away from Lit. I frequent this board as my work schedule and activities permit, with sometimes months between visits. To her family and friends, my condolences.

I reiterate... my intent in bringing back this old thread was to show that while some people rant and bitch when faced with criticism they don't like, some people take a different approach. In this case, at the time, it was humor and/or sarcasm. And that was my point, and the nature of my original post in this thread 2 years ago, as well as the one that restored it.

Remember when this forum had a sense of humor? It was fun then, wasn't it?

 

[Rybka]

Remember when this forum had a sense of humor? It was fun then, wasn't it?

So my thread is chopped liver?

 

[wildsweetone]

that job one you just put up scared the heck out of me. i just missed out on getting another job (second in line) and now i don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[Rybka]

For those who didn't know

e-mail received on 12/24/04

To whom it may concern:
Going through my aunt's computer, I found an e-mail from her to you. - This is just to inform you that Yvonne Deborah DeVotie passed away on December 3, 2004 after an extended illness. She had been suffering from breast cancer that had spread throughout her body.

Sincerely; F.M. DeVotie

 

[Angeline]

So my thread is chopped liver?

Your thread is sweet, Rybka, and you know I think that. I just remember a time when the forum wasn't filled with endless arguing about criticism, when it rarely got personally nasty, when there wasn't a subtext of "one right way to do it and you're no good if you don't do it that way." There were some wonderful writers here like Unmasked Poet, Daughter, Sweetwood, Karmadog, Eve, Judo--and yes smithpeter. And these people cared about poetry, very much. Some of them could be quite stringent in their expectations for the quality of one's writing, but they were unfailingly kind and good-humored about it. They made people feel welcome. When they laughed, it was with everyone. And they laughed a lot--over silly, goofy stuff. They didn't care if writing a goofy poem made them look silly.

They made me feel welcome, as they did others. They supported each other without goading if the poem written by Poet A differed in style or form from Poet B.

If they thought someone had talent and wanted support, they gave it. If it was clear someone else just wanted to write porny poetry because this is Lit, they respected that and let those people do their thing without making them feel they weren't "serious" enough.

You remember that forum, I know.

Maybe I'm too much of the old guard to fit here anymore, but I don't feel this is the same place at all anymore. It makes me sad.

And I kind of hate to say it, but I think a lot of that tone was set by smithpeter. I think maybe when we lost him, we lost the heart of what this place once was.

I know I won't win any popularity contests for espousing this opinion, but you know I've never much cared about that.

And sure there were always people here who harbored resentments that there was a clique that didn't include them, but it was nothing compared to now because no one attacked those people--if anything they tried to make them feel welcome. Remember when Zell first came here and everyone banded together because we cared? Could that happen here now?

I keep looking to replicate that forum somewhere else, but if it's out there I can't find it. I know it's not here anymore--not for me, anyway. And for what it's worth, I don't think I'm the only "old timer" who feels this way.

I don't expect it to change here, to go back of course. Maybe I just miss my old friends from here, but I don't feel the artistic freedom here I once did.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[champagne1982]

I'm just wondering why the focus of the forum changed from writing poetry to critiquing it. I feel that if I don't read or comment or review, I've fallen down somewhere and I shouldn't say much of anything.

I hate feeling guilty and maybe that's what's going on. When people are under the impression that they have to do something and that they have to do it this way then the something stops being what people want to do.

 

[twelveoone]

Your thread is sweet, Rybka, and you know I think that. I just remember a time when the forum wasn't filled with endless arguing about criticism, when it rarely got personally nasty, when there wasn't a subtext of "one right way to do it and you're no good if you don't do it that way." There were some wonderful writers here like Unmasked Poet, Daughter, Sweetwood, Karmadog, Eve, Judo--and yes smithpeter. And these people cared about poetry, very much. Some of them could be quite stringent in their expectations for the quality of one's writing, but they were unfailingly kind and good-humored about it. They made people feel welcome. When they laughed, it was with everyone. And they laughed a lot--over silly, goofy stuff. They didn't care if writing a goofy poem made them look silly.

They made me feel welcome, as they did others. They supported each other without goading if the poem written by Poet A differed in style or form from Poet B.

If they thought someone had talent and wanted support, they gave it. If it was clear someone else just wanted to write porny poetry because this is Lit, they respected that and let those people do their thing without making them feel they weren't "serious" enough.

You remember that forum, I know.

Maybe I'm too much of the old guard to fit here anymore, but I don't feel this is the same place at all anymore. It makes me sad.

And I kind of hate to say it, but I think a lot of that tone was set by smithpeter. I think maybe when we lost him, we lost the heart of what this place once was.

I know I won't win any popularity contests for espousing this opinion, but you know I've never much cared about that.

And sure there were always people here who harbored resentments that there was a clique that didn't include them, but it was nothing compared to now because no one attacked those people--if anything they tried to make them feel welcome. Remember when Zell first came here and everyone banded together because we cared? Could that happen here now?

I keep looking to replicate that forum somewhere else, but if it's out there I can't find it. I know it's not here anymore--not for me, anyway. And for what it's worth, I don't think I'm the only "old timer" who feels this way.

I don't expect it to change here, to go back of course. Maybe I just miss my old friends from here, but I don't feel the artistic freedom here I once did.

Just my opinion, of course.

If one goes back and looks, one sees one clique with a lot of shouting down of those that didn't fall in line.. And if one reads carefully one can see that "subtext" in your post, also.
But, that is....
Just my opinion, of course.
A golden age that never existed, a Shamalot

 

[Tathagata]

If one goes back and looks, one sees one clique with a lot of shouting down of those that didn't fall in line.. And if one reads carefully one can see that "subtext" in your post, also.
But, that is....
Just my opinion, of course.
A golden age that never existed, a Shamalot

to see it you have to have it inside
that may be the difference between what ange and you see



just my opinion

 

[Angeline]

to see it you have to have it inside
that may be the difference between what ange and you see



just my opinion

13 degrees outside and I feel warm.

Namaste' Tath.

 

[Tathagata]

13 degrees outside and I feel warm.

Namaste' Tath.

Namaste' neshemoleh


21 here down south

 

[Angeline]

Namaste' neshemoleh


21 here down south

Bahstage!

I just said I'd go out to get cigs and a newspaper. Well, he always goes...but it was 40 yesterday morning.

 

[Tathagata]

stick to ironing

Bahstage!

I just said I'd go out to get cigs and a newspaper. Well, he always goes...but it was 40 yesterday morning.

 

[Angeline]

stick to ironing

I knew I never should have told you that.

 

[Tathagata]

I knew I never should have told you that.

and you knew it the minute you hit " send" didnt you??
hehehehe

 

[Angeline]

and you knew it the minute you hit " send" didnt you??
hehehehe

It's never a good thing to admit to a man you know how to iron.

 

[eagleyez]

It's never a good thing to admit to a man you know how to iron.

Im starched and stiff and it all irons out, specially when you make the smoke run and me and tath PM and I get to play You.

Sun rise sun falls, I take today and love it all.

Most especially you, that glistening thing that shines in the night, proclaiming what I speak.

Diamond girl.

 

[Angeline]

Im starched and stiff and it all irons out, specially when you make the smoke run and me and tath PM and I get to play You.

Sun rise sun falls, I take today and love it all.

Most especially you, that glistening thing that shines in the night, proclaiming what I speak.

Diamond girl.

Hmmm I say we have time for a nap before you have to go to work, Golddust boy.

 

[Tathagata]

Hmmm I say we have time for a nap before you have to go to work, Golddust boy.

oh get a room....
oh wait..
you do already


( ellipses just for you ange)

 

[annaswirls]

okay I forgot about this thread
I do not mean to be putting this on you, Angeline, it was just your post that made me think more on this theory of mine.



all I know is the good old days are never as good as we remember them...


there aer still a lot of people here who care about poetry, and I know the longer I am here, my own perspective changes. You guys were (basically) all new here together when the poetry forum started, there is no way that can be replicated. The dynamics are all different, there is already an established group of people here, a kind of status structure, it cannot be helped. People are coming here new all the way up to founding members. That changes the way people feel when they come in.

I know when I came, even though people were nice to me and generous over my writing, I still felt like there was this established core that held the social power. When people come into a situation like that (real or imagined) it changes the dynamics, good, bad or indifferent.

I am not being critical, it is just how societies work. It is the difference between a new kid coming into a class that has been together since KG, and a summer camp where no one knows anyone. And then that same summer camp where the original campers are now counselors with long memories of the good old days when everyone was new.

There are many good things going on here. Just as many as there were before, this place is bigger, more threads, and some are going to be negative, people are not going to agree. Some of the things that were new and exciting back then are still here, they are just not new and exciting anymore. I remember being excited about same title challenges, etc. It is not that it was better before, I just already did that a bunch of times.

People who do not have similiar characteristics to the established core are going to question the way things have always been, it is how it always is in society. People who do have similiar characteristics to the established core will #1 want to be a part of it and #2 will be welcomed in. Certainly the regulars here DO welcome new people, they do offer helpful suggestions, and are friendly. This is not an accusation at all. It is just a sociology experiment that has been done many times.

I heard on NPR yesterday:
if there is one prominant religion in a country, people bond together
if there are two religions, they go to war
if there are many, they learn to get along with each other


I think that in the evolution of this forum, we are somewhere between step two and three.

In the beginning, even though there were many differences between individuals, there seems to have been a unification. Pioneers. It was okay to have little side groups because the majority was still unified. I have heard many stories about how it used to be and they were not all golden sunshine fun times

Now there are two major viewpoints in the same forum, both of them have substantial number of people who feel a part of those groups, along with many independents, but still, the core holds the "official" power. No matter how much I joke and other people joke about the circle or oval or trapezoid, it is crazy that anything thinks it does not exist, of course it does. We are human beings. It is what human beings do. There is no reason why a group of people should not be allowed to gather and socialize and mate, make rules, set up a government, get divorced, bury the dead and celebrate union and births. It is what people do.



my son is demanding peanut butter jelly and hot chocolate
the way it should be and will be...

I love you guys.

Your thread is sweet, Rybka, and you know I think that. I just remember a time when the forum wasn't filled with endless arguing about criticism, when it rarely got personally nasty, when there wasn't a subtext of "one right way to do it and you're no good if you don't do it that way." There were some wonderful writers here like Unmasked Poet, Daughter, Sweetwood, Karmadog, Eve, Judo--and yes smithpeter. And these people cared about poetry, very much. Some of them could be quite stringent in their expectations for the quality of one's writing, but they were unfailingly kind and good-humored about it. They made people feel welcome. When they laughed, it was with everyone. And they laughed a lot--over silly, goofy stuff. They didn't care if writing a goofy poem made them look silly.

They made me feel welcome, as they did others. They supported each other without goading if the poem written by Poet A differed in style or form from Poet B.

If they thought someone had talent and wanted support, they gave it. If it was clear someone else just wanted to write porny poetry because this is Lit, they respected that and let those people do their thing without making them feel they weren't "serious" enough.

You remember that forum, I know.

Maybe I'm too much of the old guard to fit here anymore, but I don't feel this is the same place at all anymore. It makes me sad.

And I kind of hate to say it, but I think a lot of that tone was set by smithpeter. I think maybe when we lost him, we lost the heart of what this place once was.

I know I won't win any popularity contests for espousing this opinion, but you know I've never much cared about that.

And sure there were always people here who harbored resentments that there was a clique that didn't include them, but it was nothing compared to now because no one attacked those people--if anything they tried to make them feel welcome. Remember when Zell first came here and everyone banded together because we cared? Could that happen here now?

I keep looking to replicate that forum somewhere else, but if it's out there I can't find it. I know it's not here anymore--not for me, anyway. And for what it's worth, I don't think I'm the only "old timer" who feels this way.

I don't expect it to change here, to go back of course. Maybe I just miss my old friends from here, but I don't feel the artistic freedom here I once did.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Tathagata]

okay I heard on NPR yesterday:
if there is one prominant religion in a country, people bond together
if there are two religions, they go to war
if there are many, they learn to get along with each other

well depending on what your definition of " many" is I'd point out Jerusalem ( a city cant get along) ,India, Iraq ( same religion different interpretations )etc.

in fact it's all about who has the right way to worship, or who has the right name for God.
The fact that they all want to believe in a higher power is not at question.
Just how they get there

which is very much like this forum.
we all want to write
but we all have different ways of getting there

George Carlin had a great line about religion
I paraphrase
"Religion is like the little extra sole they nail to the bottom people's shoes with club feet. Its a fine thing. Helps them get along through daily life better. We should not however nail the soles to the feet of natives."


there is much nailing going on here sometimes.

so NPR has it's head up it's ass on this one

and i mean that in the nicest way.

 

[annaswirls]

George Carlin had a great line about religion
I paraphrase
"Religion is like the little extra sole they nail to the bottom people's shoes with club feet. Its a fine thing. Helps them get along through daily life better. We should not however nail the soles to the feet of natives."


there is much nailing going on here sometimes.

so NPR has it's head up it's ass on this one

and i mean that in the nicest way.

I do not think their head was up anyone's ass but I am not in the mood for an international policy/religious discussion.

Either way, the analogy, I feel, stands here, as does your nailing analogy, even though I do not agree with Carlin, as you do not agree with my reference.

Religion is a lot more to me than a way to get along through my daily life better. I used to think that about religion too. We stand together to help each other through a journey of spiritual growth. "What kind of person do you want to become before you die? What good can you do?" We stand for human rights, all human rights, not with a cost of "you will believe how we believe" and trust me, when your religion includes the belief that all humans should be treated with dignity, that people should have a right to have a say in what affects them, that the environment needs our protection, etc, etc, etc, standing up against certain powers that be is like accepting a nail into your own bare sole. And you do it because you have to do what is right.

just my opinion

 

[Angeline]

okay I forgot about this thread
I do not mean to be putting this on you, Angeline, it was just your post that made me think more on this theory of mine.



all I know is the good old days are never as good as we remember them...


there aer still a lot of people here who care about poetry, and I know the longer I am here, my own perspective changes. You guys were (basically) all new here together when the poetry forum started, there is no way that can be replicated. The dynamics are all different, there is already an established group of people here, a kind of status structure, it cannot be helped. People are coming here new all the way up to founding members. That changes the way people feel when they come in.

I know when I came, even though people were nice to me and generous over my writing, I still felt like there was this established core that held the social power. When people come into a situation like that (real or imagined) it changes the dynamics, good, bad or indifferent.

I am not being critical, it is just how societies work. It is the difference between a new kid coming into a class that has been together since KG, and a summer camp where no one knows anyone. And then that same summer camp where the original campers are now counselors with long memories of the good old days when everyone was new.

There are many good things going on here. Just as many as there were before, this place is bigger, more threads, and some are going to be negative, people are not going to agree. Some of the things that were new and exciting back then are still here, they are just not new and exciting anymore. I remember being excited about same title challenges, etc. It is not that it was better before, I just already did that a bunch of times.

People who do not have similiar characteristics to the established core are going to question the way things have always been, it is how it always is in society. People who do have similiar characteristics to the established core will #1 want to be a part of it and #2 will be welcomed in. Certainly the regulars here DO welcome new people, they do offer helpful suggestions, and are friendly. This is not an accusation at all. It is just a sociology experiment that has been done many times.

I heard on NPR yesterday:
if there is one prominant religion in a country, people bond together
if there are two religions, they go to war
if there are many, they learn to get along with each other


I think that in the evolution of this forum, we are somewhere between step two and three.

In the beginning, even though there were many differences between individuals, there seems to have been a unification. Pioneers. It was okay to have little side groups because the majority was still unified. I have heard many stories about how it used to be and they were not all golden sunshine fun times

Now there are two major viewpoints in the same forum, both of them have substantial number of people who feel a part of those groups, along with many independents, but still, the core holds the "official" power. No matter how much I joke and other people joke about the circle or oval or trapezoid, it is crazy that anything thinks it does not exist, of course it does. We are human beings. It is what human beings do. There is no reason why a group of people should not be allowed to gather and socialize and mate, make rules, set up a government, get divorced, bury the dead and celebrate union and births. It is what people do.



my son is demanding peanut butter jelly and hot chocolate
the way it should be and will be...

I love you guys.

Anna, with all due respect (and I don't feel "put upon," but I do want to clarify), I think you miss the point of my post. I know this forum has always been perceived as having a clique. I've said before that the people I tend to be closest to here are the ones who were on the forum when I first came here. I post with them more because I've known them longer and we have more shared experiences. Maybe it's a comfort issue for me, but in spite of that, I've always gone out of my way to try to explain it's not an exclusive club and be open to new people--even when they don't want to do things my way. The only requirement for my club is shared love of writing and that pretty much covers everyone here.

There are people here who I like personally whose poetry is not to my taste. There are people here I like personally who I think would be better poets if they edited or wrote more like I did or like the same poets that I do, etc. However, I understand that it is unrealistic (not to mention silly) to expect anyone to do what I do or like what I like. That's where I part ways with some here.

If individuals don't want to edit or write what I personally think constitues a good poem or so on, I don't think any less of them. I don't needle them nor do I feel it's my responsibility to badger them into "learning." And compared to some of the hammer blows I've seen here in past months, "badger" is a kind word. To elevate people who do this has only encouraged more of the same. I don't think it's good for the forum. I know it hurts some people to the point where they feel they don't want to put poems here. No, that's not my problem--I've said many times that people need to not take it personally, but you must admit it's gotta be hard for some to do that when they're called fucking idiots and knuckleheads and so on and so on. What does any of that have to do with poetry?

And yeah people got nasty in 2002 here, but compare the number of times and the depth of the personal shit-throwing then with now. It is much much more prevalent now.

For all the "feedback" and "discussion" that has been formalized here in recent months, this is a much more exclusive place than it has ever been and not, in my opinion, in a good way. As I said, that's simply my opinion and some may agree with it, others may not. Again, not my problem. I'm not setting forth a point of argument, just expressing an opinion.

You are very good in that you are able to rise above all this and continue writing poetry. So do I, but many do not or restrict themselves to the few threads their friends started because they only feel comfortable there. I find that regrettable. I find the current state of the forum exponentially more combative and exclusionary than it ever has been. And that's too bad, it really is because what always separated this place from other poetry forums--to me--was the overall willingness for peaceful coexistence in spite of differences.

Some days it feels like a war zone here.

I don't think I lack understanding of social strata and the way it operates, but I do think some here lack or disregard social values, like acceptance of differences, not to mention basic kindness. Honestly if I could find a place that was more like the Poetry Forum I discovered in 2002, I'd go there, but I haven't so I guess you're all stuck with me a while longer.

 

[WickedEve]

Anna is right, as far as circles go. We have a circle or whatever you wish to call it.
It was forming when I arrived here back in '01. Then we moved to our own poetry forum, where the circle grew. People left it and others joined--like now. Our circle is ever changing. We constantly take new members in, and they soon become regulars. No one is left out unless they choose to be left out. It may take time, but most posters become part of the group. Or whatever group has formed on the board.