Going to extremes

[SpectreT]

hi spectre,
if the thread is derailed, it's partly at least because you did not address the substantive issues of my last post. whatever the debate palaver, i do try to address the points at issue, namely 'deep' relationships and DS/SM.
but many of your points are well taken.

I did not address it, simply because it cannot be addressed to your satisfaction. As I have said, I have my truth, not the truth.

For me, and in my own Body/Mind/Spirit, there needs to be a connection; chemistry, attraction, and an affection and trust that, generally speaking, needs a relationship to grow. As a bi, switch, crosdressing, male, there needs to be a lot of trust, knowledge of the fact that my partner isn't going to lose basic human respect for me the first time s/he sees me in a skirt. So, my "mileage" is that the "deep relationship" is necessary before the kinks I have can be more than talked about in abstract by me, let alone acted upon.

Given my own high standards, I can say that to no one's great surprise, I'm not in a B/D, D/S relationship at the moment.

edit to fix a punctuation flaw

 

[Etoile]

I am just wondering...am I the only one who gets a Meredith Brooks song in my head whenever I see this thread title?
now that is a derailment...

 

[SpectreT]

I am just wondering...am I the only one who gets a Meredith Brooks song in my head whenever I see this thread title?
now that is a derailment...

For me it was Billy Joel. And I already apologized for that mini hijack once.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Hijack continues............

As D/s is about the relationship between the Dominant and the submissive or slave first and foremost to me .Followed secondary by the fetish aspects and complimentry BDSM pursuits which I see as a remarkable fringe benefit from establishment of the trust built over time within the D/s relationship.........

Then reading 'some' opinions on this thread my song of choice to hijack RJ's Thread would be 'the Lunatics 'are taking over the Asylum........smiles sweetly .....

 

[RJMasters]

pure,

A fallacy is a defect in an argument which misleads the mind. The defect may be intentional or unintentional. If the defect is intentional, we sometimes call it a sophism. One’s understanding of fallacies may be used for good — in order to avoid or expose error; or it may be used for evil — in order to subtly deceive.

A formal fallacy is one which involves an error in the form, arrangement or technical structure of an argument. The question in view is not whether a conclusion is true or false, but whether the form of the argument is correct or incorrect — valid or invalid.

Examples:

A valid Formal Argument
- True and Valid:
All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.

An invalid Formal Argument
- False and Invalid:
Some men are green.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates is green.


There are aproximately 42 types of logical fallacies, 15 are most commonly used. That certainly is a tall order to share and probably more than anyone here at this forum would care to undertake. So today we are going to look at just 3. The reasons I choose 3 is because your contribution in this thread to date revolves around cheifly 3 commonly used logical fallacies.

1. Argumentum ad hominem (argument directed at the person rather than the idea or topic being discuss anod/or debated)

Your attempt to call into question the credibility of my opinions about the topic at hand in this thread based upon experience or a lack thereof, shows a nice example of this type of logical fallacy. ADR was kind enough to make that simple observation and point it out to the entire class. She further challenged you to in a sense to do the same with others such as Netzach, Cat, SD, Eb, and AA. Unfortunately for you SD, a notable person who has extensive experience and who widely respected for the Domme she is. She shares from her own experience that yes these experiences exisit and occur and that they are indeed fulfilling. Also noted are others like KC who earlier in the thread confirmed such experiences.

One of the chief problems with using a logical fallacy in order to discredit a person or idea is that you open the door for those who can collaberate the original substance of the topic and it end up strengthening rather than weaken the other person position. But not to be undaunted, if you cannot erode the credibility of the source, the next tactic is to simply distract and confuse the subject matter in an effort to dilute any relavance. Which brings us to what Spectre T refers to as the straw man arguement you presented, and the second, thrid and fourth major logical fallacy you have contributed to this topic's thread.

The reason I am taking such an effort in showing this, is because I consider this to be truly a masterpiece in the use of logical fallacies. Here we find one fallacy stack up upon other fallacies with the result of leaving the readers confused and at a lost of even where to begin.

You begin with the logical fallacy, "the red herring", which is a logical fallacy in an atempt to distract from the original topic of discussion. You do this by trying to switch the discussion using another logical fallacy called "sweeping generalization" about men perfering non-commitment, and then try to support all of this using statistics about the behavior of some men using professional Dommes and or hookers for services.

None of which has anything to do with what the topic at hand, and is clearly just your way of trying to derail the discussion.

Definition of a Straw man fallacy: This is the fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody's argument, rather than the actual argument they've made. Often this fallacy involves putting words into somebody's mouth by saying they've made arguments they haven't actually made, in which case the straw man argument is a veiled version of argumentum ad logicam.Strategic use of a straw man can be very effective. A carefully constructed straw man can sometimes entice an unsuspecting opponent into defending a silly argument that he would not have tried to defend otherwise. But this strategy only works if the straw man is not too different from the arguments your opponent has actually made, because a really outrageous straw man will be recognized as just that. The best straw man is not, in fact, a fallacy at all, but simply a logical extension or amplification of an argument your opponent has made.

For those wishing to learn more about logical fallacies and how to recognize them, here are two good starting resource http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm and http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html

------------
Just to be clear, I never said that men who use professional Domme did not or could not experience similar or even the same experiences as those in relationships. Nor have I ascerted that being in a relationship guarantees a person will have these experiences.

I have said that these types of experiences are only expereinced after some kind of deeper connection is made between two people. I am sure that when one uses a professional Domme, if the experience is good, there tends to be reoccuring business as that type of work is largely based upon developing a reoccuring clientel. In such situations, I am sure that those involved largely remain strangers, yet due to the reoccuring visits, a connection can and probably does develop thus allowing such experiences.

I apologize for digressing from the topic at hand. In the future I will ignore further red herrings. I hope we can continue to discuss what I find to be an amazing and powerful aspect of D/s BDSM.

 

[Shankara20]

Some time a hug, a kiss, a look, a word, or a touch can be extreme all by themselves. I guess what I am trying to say is that often extreme doesn't always have to be about how big the butt plug is or how deep the bruise from a cane might be. Sometimes it is the person who makes even the simpliest of things extreme.

Opening up my emotional heart to another person in a way that allows them to see me as I truly am deep inside is the riskiest edge play I can ever imagine. The pain from that sort of edge play gone wrong can create a wound that never heals. The risk is huge, and the reward incredible.

I have some thoughts about relationships with ProDommes but do not want to hijack RJ's thread. Shall we start another thread, or continue the hijack RJ?

 

[Pure]

response to rj

rj,
the reprinting of your logic 101 notes is not really productive.

the way I see it, you're maintaining 1) that certain D/S--and more broadly, BDSM-- experiences are only to be had in deep (emotionally connected, disclosing, intimate) ongoing relationships. (this depth is not the same as a 'chemistry' that two people may feel who have just met, or a kind of electric sexual charge between relative strangers).

further, you are apparently maintaining 2) that these particular experiences are the most fullfilling ('extreme') or best possible experiences in a DS (or BDSM) encounter or relationship, i.e. that they are more fulfilling than is possible in DS (or BDSM) encounters with relative strangers.

please correct these formulations if they do not capture your views.

I don't have a problem with the first point, but rather the second. You've cited neither evidence nor direct experience supporting the second.

you've mentioned several dominant females who've extensively written of their experiences, and apparently, following ADR's lead, want me to question the basis of their beliefs as I question yours.

there is no reason to do that. with all due respect, you're not in their league. generally I haven't seen them posting in support of your points, above.*

taking shadowsdream, however, she recounts (July 9, #84) a number of intimate and touching moments, perhaps made possible by her relationships with her subs. I have no reason to doubt her, but this account fails to support your second point.
-------

*I've just noticed a posting of Netzach, #100, today, which possibly lends support to your views in the area of DS, but not in the area of SM. I will have to respond to her later, though I have no reason to doubt her experience and wisdom.

 

[RJMasters]

Opening up my emotional heart to another person in a way that allows them to see me as I truly am deep inside is the riskiest edge play I can ever imagine. The pain from that sort of edge play gone wrong can create a wound that never heals. The risk is huge, and the reward incredible.

I have some thoughts about relationships with ProDommes but do not want to hijack RJ's thread. Shall we start another thread, or continue the hijack RJ?

Thank you Shank for your contribution. I would agree that in order to experience these things, the risk is huge and the reward is incredible. Though I have never seen it as edgeplay, I see where you make such a statement.

They key to your statement that catches my eye is, "Opening up my emotional heart to another person". I think that is in part an inherient part of this overall discussion. The reason being is that I do not see strangers doing this for the same reasons you mentioned. It has huge risks. But if one can find such a Dom or Domme, whereby that is possible, the rewards can literatly steal your breath away and be extreme, satisfying and fulfilling for both the Domme/Dom and submissive.

Often bad past expereinces with partners who were abusive or selfish can make one afraid to open up, or try again. It is safer to take the road of medocracy eh?

There are risks and no promises of being easy, but it is something which can be had or expereinced with the right connection between two people.

Thanks for sharing. As for continuing the hyjack, I'd rather stick to the topic and get a chance to hear maybe some people share some of their own personal experiences and share their feelings and opinions about it. I don't think debate is the right way to approach a subject like this.

For me its simple...these types of expereinces occur and I'd like to discuss them and hear more about it from others. I will share from my own personal experiences as well as the discussion continues.

 

[RJMasters]

rj,
the reprinting of your logic 101 notes is not really productive.

the way I see it, you're maintaining 1) that certain D/S--and more broadly, BDSM-- experiences are only to be had in deep (emotionally connected, disclosing, intimate) ongoing relationships. (this depth is not the same as a 'chemistry' that two people may feel who have just met, or a kind of electric sexual charge between relative strangers).

further, you are apparently maintaining 2) that these particular experiences are the most fullfilling ('extreme') or best possible experiences in a DS (or BDSM) encounter or relationship, i.e. that they are more fulfilling than is possible in DS (or BDSM) encounters with relative strangers.

please correct these formulations if they do not capture your views.

I don't have a problem with the first point, but rather the second. You've cited neither evidence nor direct experience supporting the second.

you've mentioned several dominant females who've extensively written of their experiences, and apparently, following ADR's lead, want me to question the basis of their beliefs as I question yours.

there is no reason to do that. with all due respect, you're not in their league. generally I haven't seen them posting in support of your points, above.*

taking shadowsdream, however, she recounts (July 9, #84) a number of intimate and touching moments, perhaps made possible by her relationships with her subs. I have no reason to doubt her, but this account fails to support your second point.
-------

*I've just noticed a posting of Netzach, #100, today, which possibly lends support to your views in the area of DS, but not in the area of SM. I will have to respond to her later, though I have no reason to doubt her experience and wisdom.

Don't put words into my mouth bucko.

Edited to add:

This is exactly what I said in response to SD:
I do think there are some aspects which can only be experienced where that connection has been forged and established. I would think it rare (not unheard of), that one might experience the same level of intensity as some of the things which you describe above, as a complete stranger. Often these kind of intense/extreme responses are made possible or stem from a collection of past experieces that have been shared and allow not only one to exert such dominace with a whisper, but also to allow for the other to let go so completely from the same.

This is eaxactly what I said to you:
I have said that these types of experiences are only expereinced after some kind of deeper connection is made between two people. I am sure that when one uses a professional Domme, if the experience is good, there tends to be reoccuring business as that type of work is largely based upon developing a reoccuring clientel. In such situations, I am sure that those involved largely remain strangers, yet due to the reoccuring visits, a connection can and probably does develop thus allowing such experiences.

As noted by Shank, there are both emotional and mental risks associated. Based upon this simple reasoning, it not hard to understand why perfect strangers do not share in these type of expereinces for the most part. That is not being exclusionary, that just fucking comon sense you tard and comes about naturally as a result of people protecting themselves.

I'm out...got better things to do with my time.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Opening up my emotional heart to another person in a way that allows them to see me as I truly am deep inside is the riskiest edge play I can ever imagine. The pain from that sort of edge play gone wrong can create a wound that never heals. The risk is huge, and the reward incredible.

I have some thoughts about relationships with ProDommes but do not want to hijack RJ's thread. Shall we start another thread, or continue the hijack RJ?

I think im developing a shankara
panty fetish or something

 

[Pure]

to netzach,

I think I might have a few things to say on the topic.

as always! you have a wealth of experience

I'd say a full half of the people I work with would love to work with someone with whom there's investment and connection. EVERYONE I work with desires chemistry - without that there's nothing doing and I've never heard anyone disagree.

yes, chemistry--like an electric charge between two people.
but the 'investment and connection' you're talking about is in the context of a commercial relationship, if I'm not mistaken? and would it not be fair to say you do not fully invest yourself in those (that you 'hold back')?

even if you view yourself as like a therapist, these people too, generally 'hold back' and retain some emotional distance. right?

Some of the most intense SM scenes I've ever had have been with people I don't know.

Now that interests me! Will you say more?

D/s with someone I don't know never works for me - either that person is in strong and invested service with someone else they DO know and they are being lent to me, which is ok, or they are having an intense relationship with their own drives and needs and I'm just an enabler, also OK, but not D/s.

this i don't follow, since i thought you blurred any line between SM and DS. for instance you call yourself a 'sadistic dom.' as pro dom, don't you often 'hand out' a combination of sadism and domination?

it appears you are suggesting you are 'pure Dom' on some occasions, and on those occasions, connection is necessary. what's unclear is whether you mean a deep, ongoing intimate relationship, or just a trusting, amicable, commercial one.

thanks for explaining.

best,
j.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Thank you SD for sharing this.

There are so many aspects of D/s BDSM which can be satisfying. I do think there are some aspects which can only be experienced where that connection has been forged and established. I would think it rare (not unheard of), that one might experience the same level of intensity as some of the things which you describe above, as a complete stranger. Often these kind of intense/extreme responses are made possible or stem from a collection of past experieces that have been shared and allow not only one to exert such dominace with a whisper, but also to allow for the other to let go so completely from the same.

Interestingly enough RJ just last Friday I dropped a newbie to sub space and held him there all evening with no more than an occassional hand on his shoulder as I spoke to a dozen others in My home. I had only met him twice before and he had been identifying as a switch, covering all basis just to be sure to land somewhere.

Before that evening he had been in over drive running here and there looking for every experience he could get and negotiating scenes that were only sought by him.

From just that single evening he has grown quieter and more at peace yet lost in where he knows he could go if given the opportunity. For him touch alone was extreme because he has had so little of it in life. I believe this is often true of submissives and Dominants alike.

Saturday evening I attended a play party with 3 subs in collars and later in the evening he said to Me..."i was envious earlier in the evening of the subs in collars that tripped over each other to serve You but now that You sit across from me I am content"

I suspect that his emotions would be seen as extreme by most but for Myself they were as they should be from the experience that was designed in its simplicity for a man so easily read.

 

[Pure]

comments for sd

those are very vivid accounts, sd, and your interpretations of them bespeak your years of experience.

as i understand it, this thread was originally about whether physical extremes were necessary to yield very intense experiences. i think rj is correct that they are not. a further issue that has arisen is, What are the usual preconditions for such intense bdsm experiences, esp. D/s ones; in a word, what kind of 'connection' between the partners.

now as i read rj, he suggesting that, generally, most productive basis of these experiences is intimate, sustained, connection; i read that as people who've gotten to know each other; shared intimacies and confidences, and developed trust: this is something more than the instant sense of attunement, "chemistry," or 'electrical charge' that a pair of relative strangers may feel.

looking at his formulation in his words,

rj I do think there are some aspects which can only be experienced where that connection has been forged and established. I would think it rare (not unheard of), that one might experience the same level of intensity as some of the things which you describe above, as a complete stranger. Often these kind of intense/extreme responses are made possible or stem from a collection of past experieces that have been shared and allow not only one to exert such dominace with a whisper, but also to allow for the other to let go so completely from the same. ] [my emphasis]

P: it certainly seems to be what i've called intimate, sustained connection; he alludes to history "a collection of past experiences that have been shared..."

now let's look at your account, below:

sd

Interestingly enough RJ just last Friday I dropped a newbie to sub space and held him there all evening with no more than an occassional hand on his shoulder as I spoke to a dozen others in My home. I had only met him twice before and he had been identifying as a switch, covering all basis just to be sure to land somewhere.

Before that evening he had been in over drive running here and there looking for every experience he could get and negotiating scenes that were only sought by him.

From just that single evening he has grown quieter and more at peace yet lost in where he knows he could go if given the opportunity. For him touch alone was extreme because he has had so little of it in life. I believe this is often true of submissives and Dominants alike.

P: from this moving description, it appears to me this was a case of 'instant chemistry.' you call him a noobie. you state "I had met him only twice before". you do not say whether you played. so there is hardly any 'collection of past experiences.' you further allude to his "running here and there," and that presumably means with other doms, since you met him only twice.

so, the way i read it, we do NOT have a case of the intimate, sustained connection, alleged to be the most productive basis (usually) for intensity of D/s experience. would you agree?

while this vivid account certainly indicates that 'extremity' or intensity may arise with little physical interaction--mere touches--it does not, imo, support the further contention that sustained intimacy is the usual precondition for such experiences. your account does [added, oops: NOT] disconfirm rj's claim, since he has spoken of the usual preconditions, and allowed for some exceptions ("not unheard of"). your incident would appear to be one of them.

best,
j.

 

[Shadowsdream]

those are very vivid accounts, sd, and your interpretations of them bespeak your years of experience.

as i understand it, this thread was originally about whether physical extremes were necessary to yield very intense experiences. i think rj is correct that they are not. a further issue that has arisen is, What are the usual preconditions for such intense bdsm experiences, esp. D/s ones; in a word, what kind of 'connection' between the partners.

now as i read rj, he suggesting that, generally, most productive basis of these experiences is intimate, sustained, connection; i read that as people who've gotten to know each other; shared intimacies and confidences, and developed trust: this is something more than the instant sense of attunement, "chemistry," or 'electrical charge' that a pair of relative strangers may feel.

looking at his formulation in his words,

rj I do think there are some aspects which can only be experienced where that connection has been forged and established. I would think it rare (not unheard of), that one might experience the same level of intensity as some of the things which you describe above, as a complete stranger. Often these kind of intense/extreme responses are made possible or stem from a collection of past experieces that have been shared and allow not only one to exert such dominace with a whisper, but also to allow for the other to let go so completely from the same. ] [my emphasis]

P: it certainly seems to be what i've called intimate, sustained connection; he alludes to history "a collection of past experiences that have been shared..."

now let's look at your account, below:

sd

Interestingly enough RJ just last Friday I dropped a newbie to sub space and held him there all evening with no more than an occassional hand on his shoulder as I spoke to a dozen others in My home. I had only met him twice before and he had been identifying as a switch, covering all basis just to be sure to land somewhere.

Before that evening he had been in over drive running here and there looking for every experience he could get and negotiating scenes that were only sought by him.

From just that single evening he has grown quieter and more at peace yet lost in where he knows he could go if given the opportunity. For him touch alone was extreme because he has had so little of it in life. I believe this is often true of submissives and Dominants alike.

P: from this moving description, it appears to me this was a case of 'instant chemistry.' you call him a noobie. you state "I had met him only twice before". you do not say whether you played. so there is hardly any 'collection of past experiences.' you further allude to his "running here and there," and that presumably means with other doms, since you met him only twice.

so, the way i read it, we do NOT have a case of the intimate, sustained connection, alleged to be the most productive basis (usually) for intensity of D/s experience. would you agree?

while this vivid account certainly indicates that 'extremity' or intensity may arise with little physical interaction--mere touches--it does not, imo, support the further contention that sustained intimacy is the usual precondition for such experiences. your account does disconfirm rj's claim, since he has spoken of the usual preconditions, and allowed for some exceptions ("not unheard of"). your incident would appear to be one of them.

best,
j.

In actuality j My post when really understood and read between the lines shows in fact that the man in question was easily taken without extreme play or interraction of any kind from My perspective yet for him it was extreme just from the calibre of the touch. For Myself the interraction was designed to give him that comfort yet held no special appeal to Me in any way that would rock My boat. A simple expectation of My touch to his emotions...

Now last night I was touched by what My younger male sub may have seen as extreme yet once again was simple normalcy for Me. To have U/us both touched by one scene does take a certain intimacy and knowledge that is garnered over time.

he had been instructed to arrive at My door with a hard cock in hand...if he was not hard enough he would be disciplined. Though he has been well trained I have never had a need to discipline him yet knew this would be the night as it was needed to take him to the next level of learning about the harsher side of Me.

When I opened the door he was amazed to see Me dressed in leather and yielding a special wooden crop. The look on My face was one of stone and My eyes held neither warmth nor comfort. his erection quickly became half of what he had hoped to present and I watched his confidence shrivel with My cock.

I had him follow Me into My home and down the 3 steps that leads to the living area while I sat upon a high wooden chair in the alcove above him. he dropped to his knees in confusion and apologized for disappointing Me...I in turn commanded him to remove all jewelry his shirt and socks and expose his now flaccid cock to Me. he did so without question with head lowered and body shaking...nothing extreme had occurred yet W/we both were mesmerized with each other, held spell bound.

I interrogated him for a few minutes and directed him to raise his eyes to Mine which is very difficult for him to do. I saw all of the confidence I had instilled in him over the last year evaporate yet I knew the cause was not all that I have so far described but the fact that I had been calling him by his given name throughout and not once had he heard the pet name I bestowed upon him so long ago. So simple yet so disconcerting for him.

I directed him to crawl up the stairs past Me and to the dungeon...instant obedience no questions asked. I followed in a few minutes to find him kneeling before the cross with his hands on his thighs and head bent...I could sense both his fear and his respect. W/we were as one yet miles apart at the same time. I commanded him to strip completely and position himself facing the St Andrews Cross and silently I bound his wrists to the suspension cuffs and delibertly added more bondage on his arms and legs with both latex and shrink wrap. I did not give him the comfort of the blindfold nor the sound of My voice until he was firmly afixed for My pleasure and his lesson.

No warm up...lots of pain and suffering in many different ways...I would not allow him to float off into subspace and watched him fight with every fibre of his being just to endure. The discipline was extreme by many measures and his confusion complete as I continued to question him using only his given name. The connection between U/us in that moment was very one sided...My side, for he growled and gritted his teeth and shook with every fibre of his being just to endure the snap of the single tail that was relentless in its task.

Taking him down from the cross and instructing him to crawl blindfolded to the bedroom of torment I contemplated the continuing of the extreme and the introduction of the soft sensuality and decided to continue with a combination of the two. You see I know him so well that I know the soft touch literally throws him into sub space.

I directed him onto the bed centered in the middle with his head upon the pillow, then hand cuffed him both wrists and feet in a very vulnerable exposed position, still using only his given name. Putting My own body upon the bed I leaned over him to brush his lips with Mine as My hand gently slid over his body just to feel it arch. For the first time I used his pet name and brought his connection "TO" Me back full force. Even the texture of his breathing became soft and hopeful...now I could continue for another dozen paragraphs but hope that the ups and downs of "extreme" versus the "soft" touch explains my position a little better on this conversation that I am so pleased RJ has begun.

~~smile~~

 

[FurryFury]

In actuality j My post when really understood and read between the lines shows in fact that the man in question was easily taken without extreme play or interraction of any kind from My perspective yet for him it was extreme just from the calibre of the touch. For Myself the interraction was designed to give him that comfort yet held no special appeal to Me in any way that would rock My boat. A simple expectation of My touch to his emotions...

Now last night I was touched by what My younger male sub may have seen as extreme yet once again was simple normalcy for Me. To have U/us both touched by one scene does take a certain intimacy and knowledge that is garnered over time.

he had been instructed to arrive at My door with a hard cock in hand...if he was not hard enough he would be disciplined. Though he has been well trained I have never had a need to discipline him yet knew this would be the night as it was needed to take him to the next level of learning about the harsher side of Me.

When I opened the door he was amazed to see Me dressed in leather and yielding a special wooden crop. The look on My face was one of stone and My eyes held neither warmth nor comfort. his erection quickly became half of what he had hoped to present and I watched his confidence shrivel with My cock.

I had him follow Me into My home and down the 3 steps that leads to the living area while I sat upon a high wooden chair in the alcove above him. he dropped to his knees in confusion and apologized for disappointing Me...I in turn commanded him to remove all jewelry his shirt and socks and expose his now flaccid cock to Me. he did so without question with head lowered and body shaking...nothing extreme had occurred yet W/we both were mesmerized with each other, held spell bound.

I interrogated him for a few minutes and directed him to raise his eyes to Mine which is very difficult for him to do. I saw all of the confidence I had instilled in him over the last year evaporate yet I knew the cause was not all that I have so far described but the fact that I had been calling him by his given name throughout and not once had he heard the pet name I bestowed upon him so long ago. So simple yet so disconcerting for him.

I directed him to crawl up the stairs past Me and to the dungeon...instant obedience no questions asked. I followed in a few minutes to find him kneeling before the cross with his hands on his thighs and head bent...I could sense both his fear and his respect. W/we were as one yet miles apart at the same time. I commanded him to strip completely and position himself facing the St Andrews Cross and silently I bound his wrists to the suspension cuffs and delibertly added more bondage on his arms and legs with both latex and shrink wrap. I did not give him the comfort of the blindfold nor the sound of My voice until he was firmly afixed for My pleasure and his lesson.

No warm up...lots of pain and suffering in many different ways...I would not allow him to float off into subspace and watched him fight with every fibre of his being just to endure. The discipline was extreme by many measures and his confusion complete as I continued to question him using only his given name. The connection between U/us in that moment was very one sided...My side, for he growled and gritted his teeth and shook with every fibre of his being just to endure the snap of the single tail that was relentless in its task.

Taking him down from the cross and instructing him to crawl blindfolded to the bedroom of torment I contemplated the continuing of the extreme and the introduction of the soft sensuality and decided to continue with a combination of the two. You see I know him so well that I know the soft touch literally throws him into sub space.

I directed him onto the bed centered in the middle with his head upon the pillow, then hand cuffed him both wrists and feet in a very vulnerable exposed position, still using only his given name. Putting My own body upon the bed I leaned over him to brush his lips with Mine as My hand gently slid over his body just to feel it arch. For the first time I used his pet name and brought his connection "TO" Me back full force. Even the texture of his breathing became soft and hopeful...now I could continue for another dozen paragraphs but hope that the ups and downs of "extreme" versus the "soft" touch explains my position a little better on this conversation that I am so pleased RJ has begun.

~~smile~~

Wonderful post! I enjoyed reading it very much. It almost made me want to be a Dom. *smiles*

Fury

 

[Shadowsdream]

Wonderful post! I enjoyed reading it very much. It almost made me want to be a Dom. *smiles*

Fury

~~smile~~ thank you FurryFury...I can't imagine any other way!

 

[Netzach]

I think I might have a few things to say on the topic.

as always! you have a wealth of experience

I'd say a full half of the people I work with would love to work with someone with whom there's investment and connection. EVERYONE I work with desires chemistry - without that there's nothing doing and I've never heard anyone disagree.

yes, chemistry--like an electric charge between two people.
but the 'investment and connection' you're talking about is in the context of a commercial relationship, if I'm not mistaken? and would it not be fair to say you do not fully invest yourself in those (that you 'hold back')?

even if you view yourself as like a therapist, these people too, generally 'hold back' and retain some emotional distance. right?

Some of the most intense SM scenes I've ever had have been with people I don't know.

Now that interests me! Will you say more?

D/s with someone I don't know never works for me - either that person is in strong and invested service with someone else they DO know and they are being lent to me, which is ok, or they are having an intense relationship with their own drives and needs and I'm just an enabler, also OK, but not D/s.

this i don't follow, since i thought you blurred any line between SM and DS. for instance you call yourself a 'sadistic dom.' as pro dom, don't you often 'hand out' a combination of sadism and domination?

it appears you are suggesting you are 'pure Dom' on some occasions, and on those occasions, connection is necessary. what's unclear is whether you mean a deep, ongoing intimate relationship, or just a trusting, amicable, commercial one.

thanks for explaining.

best,
j.

My point is that nobody is going to do something purely altruistic for me or I'd think, for anyone, they do not have some sort of emotional investment in. It can be within a cordial and friendly context rather than a romantic one, if you want me to describe it, but it *is* an intimacy above and beyond business as usual, often disconcertingly so, that allows this to happen.

I would say that for submission to my will which I find substantive and I don't *have to question the ulterior movites of* there's got to be more going on than I'm there, I'm alive and I have a pussy so the guy wants to "submit."

 

[Ebonyfire]

From just that single evening he has grown quieter and more at peace yet lost in where he knows he could go if given the opportunity. For him touch alone was extreme because he has had so little of it in life. I believe this is often true of submissives and Dominants alike

I have had the same experiences with the submissives I deal with.

Eb

 

[RJMasters]

Interestingly enough RJ just last Friday I dropped a newbie to sub space and held him there all evening with no more than an occassional hand on his shoulder as I spoke to a dozen others in My home. I had only met him twice before and he had been identifying as a switch, covering all basis just to be sure to land somewhere.

Before that evening he had been in over drive running here and there looking for every experience he could get and negotiating scenes that were only sought by him.

From just that single evening he has grown quieter and more at peace yet lost in where he knows he could go if given the opportunity. For him touch alone was extreme because he has had so little of it in life. I believe this is often true of submissives and Dominants alike.

Saturday evening I attended a play party with 3 subs in collars and later in the evening he said to Me..."i was envious earlier in the evening of the subs in collars that tripped over each other to serve You but now that You sit across from me I am content"

I suspect that his emotions would be seen as extreme by most but for Myself they were as they should be from the experience that was designed in its simplicity for a man so easily read.

SD,

As I read this account it reminded me how at times one can be in a constant state of frenzy, need and want. Where one can be driven at times. One could almost say they are in a state of extreme flux. Their need is often so strong, and at times it rules them without mercy and no pardon. That is...until a simple touch or request to kneel near and calm thier troubled mind and heart. A hope that is born of a request that leads to joy as their knee touches the ground, and brings a certain type of peace with it. A peace not born of a whip or crop or even sexual activity, but one that is dirived soley from the joy he felt knowing he was where he was because you requested it.

You gave him a place, and to him it was special and because of this he found what it was, in part, that he was trying to fulfill running around in a haphazard fashion from one extreme to the next. This simple taste will no doubt shape his future pursuits, maybe even the course of his whole life.

From just that single evening he has grown quieter and more at peace yet lost in where he knows he could go if given the opportunity.

I know I should stop, but the above expereince you have shared is so amazing to me and a bit intoxicating in a vicarious sort of way. Though on the surface it appears to be such a smiple exchange, there is a depthness here which I find staggering. Him being a Noobie makes it even more interesting and exciting and opens my mind to new possibilities and to some questions. I will let those simmer for now, till I have thought more on them.

Thank you

 

[FurryFury]

I have had the same experiences with the submissives I deal with.

Eb

Is anyone other than nursing mothers touched enough in this life?

*smiles*

Fury

 

[RJMasters]

...they are having an intense relationship with their own drives and needs and I'm just an enabler, also OK, but not D/s.

Thank you Netzach for what you have contributed thus far.

I have read this about 4 or 5 times and something keeps pulling at me, but can't get a foot hold on it.

If I get what your saying here...there may be alot of "s" happening, but its not D/s, because there really isn't any "D" happening. Am I right?

I think my confusion may come from my interpreting D/s as Domme/Dom - Submissive rather than Dominance/submission.

 

[RJMasters]

I am just wondering...am I the only one who gets a Meredith Brooks song in my head whenever I see this thread title?
now that is a derailment...

Curiosity sidetracked the cat...heads over to google for a little search and find.

 

[RJMasters]

I think im developing a shankara
panty fetish or something

He does have good taste doesn't he? I'm still holding out for a camel toe shot though.

 

[RJMasters]

In actuality j My post when really understood and read between the lines shows in fact that the man in question was easily taken without extreme play or interraction of any kind from My perspective yet for him it was extreme just from the calibre of the touch. For Myself the interraction was designed to give him that comfort yet held no special appeal to Me in any way that would rock My boat. A simple expectation of My touch to his emotions...

Now last night I was touched by what My younger male sub may have seen as extreme yet once again was simple normalcy for Me. To have U/us both touched by one scene does take a certain intimacy and knowledge that is garnered over time.

he had been instructed to arrive at My door with a hard cock in hand...if he was not hard enough he would be disciplined. Though he has been well trained I have never had a need to discipline him yet knew this would be the night as it was needed to take him to the next level of learning about the harsher side of Me.

When I opened the door he was amazed to see Me dressed in leather and yielding a special wooden crop. The look on My face was one of stone and My eyes held neither warmth nor comfort. his erection quickly became half of what he had hoped to present and I watched his confidence shrivel with My cock.

I had him follow Me into My home and down the 3 steps that leads to the living area while I sat upon a high wooden chair in the alcove above him. he dropped to his knees in confusion and apologized for disappointing Me...I in turn commanded him to remove all jewelry his shirt and socks and expose his now flaccid cock to Me. he did so without question with head lowered and body shaking...nothing extreme had occurred yet W/we both were mesmerized with each other, held spell bound.

I interrogated him for a few minutes and directed him to raise his eyes to Mine which is very difficult for him to do. I saw all of the confidence I had instilled in him over the last year evaporate yet I knew the cause was not all that I have so far described but the fact that I had been calling him by his given name throughout and not once had he heard the pet name I bestowed upon him so long ago. So simple yet so disconcerting for him.

I directed him to crawl up the stairs past Me and to the dungeon...instant obedience no questions asked. I followed in a few minutes to find him kneeling before the cross with his hands on his thighs and head bent...I could sense both his fear and his respect. W/we were as one yet miles apart at the same time. I commanded him to strip completely and position himself facing the St Andrews Cross and silently I bound his wrists to the suspension cuffs and delibertly added more bondage on his arms and legs with both latex and shrink wrap. I did not give him the comfort of the blindfold nor the sound of My voice until he was firmly afixed for My pleasure and his lesson.

No warm up...lots of pain and suffering in many different ways...I would not allow him to float off into subspace and watched him fight with every fibre of his being just to endure. The discipline was extreme by many measures and his confusion complete as I continued to question him using only his given name. The connection between U/us in that moment was very one sided...My side, for he growled and gritted his teeth and shook with every fibre of his being just to endure the snap of the single tail that was relentless in its task.

Taking him down from the cross and instructing him to crawl blindfolded to the bedroom of torment I contemplated the continuing of the extreme and the introduction of the soft sensuality and decided to continue with a combination of the two. You see I know him so well that I know the soft touch literally throws him into sub space.

I directed him onto the bed centered in the middle with his head upon the pillow, then hand cuffed him both wrists and feet in a very vulnerable exposed position, still using only his given name. Putting My own body upon the bed I leaned over him to brush his lips with Mine as My hand gently slid over his body just to feel it arch. For the first time I used his pet name and brought his connection "TO" Me back full force. Even the texture of his breathing became soft and hopeful...now I could continue for another dozen paragraphs but hope that the ups and downs of "extreme" versus the "soft" touch explains my position a little better on this conversation that I am so pleased RJ has begun.

~~smile~~

Wow.

 

[A Desert Rose]

... his connection "TO" Me back full force. Even the texture of his breathing became soft and hopeful...now I could continue for another dozen paragraphs but hope that the ups and downs of "extreme" versus the "soft" touch explains my position a little better on this conversation that I am so pleased RJ has begun.

~~smile~~

I remember those feelings when I met You... soft and very hopeful.