Heart vs. Head

[Cathleen]

Thanks for those thoughts - I suppose I ought to write some thoughts and feelings down, really figure out what is a thought vs. a feeling. I can tend to mix those two things......

ksmybuttons what you say about just following the heart can lead to subjugation of my needs is hitting me between the eyes right now....... thank you. I need to remember that, to remember my power as an individual as well as within the relationship.

 

[warrior queen]

If we only follow our heart we become enablers and subjugate our own needs and health to others. Then it affects are self esteem.

unfortunately, the opposite has been true for me.

i've always 'rationalised' everything - and when my relationship started to crumble, i justified staying because i used my head and weighed up good vs. bad.

what that meant was, the few goods held me there despite the many bads.
because rationally, i was telling myself all this crap about things being stable, money issues, children, etc.

had i listened with my heart, and acknowledged the loss of 'love', i would have left much sooner and saved myself a whole load of heartache - including losing my children.

from now on, i will only enter into a relationship if my heart tells me to - other than that, it's gratuitous sex and a little friendly company for me from here on out.

 

[ksmybuttons]

unfortunately, the opposite has been true for me.

i've always 'rationalised' everything - and when my relationship started to crumble, i justified staying because i used my head and weighed up good vs. bad.

what that meant was, the few goods held me there despite the many bads.
because rationally, i was telling myself all this crap about things being stable, money issues, children, etc.

had i listened with my heart, and acknowledged the loss of 'love', i would have left much sooner and saved myself a whole load of heartache - including losing my children.

from now on, i will only enter into a relationship if my heart tells me to - other than that, it's gratuitous sex and a little friendly company for me from here on out.

Most the time it's boundary issues. You have to have the boundaries: those things which you cannot compromise for love. For me, those are things like integrity, trust, compassion, honesty -- some pretty measurable things. Once those boundaries are set, and what you are willing to do regarding those issues, then the heart can take over.

If I went with my heart, I would have had innumberable affairs and done some rather shady types of things. Because of my boundaries, I don't do them - I'm tempted, but would never cross those lines because it affects my self esteem.

I've been married for 17 years in April and we've been together for 20. We wouldn't have made it if it was all heart.

 

[Cathleen]

ksmybuttons I agree so much about boundaries, it took me a while to realize when others had pushed through mine just as I sometimes blew mine. When I have balance, and it is a sort of fluid thing, my head and heart work in tandem.

Maintaining the connection between two can be difficult without those boundaries - although each situation is different but I have to keep a sense of 'fair play' between the two.

I'm enjoying your thoughts, thanks.

 

[babydoll2u]

This probably sounds naive or worse, plain stupid, but I am having (and have always had )a very hard time separating the two.

Any thoughts, ideas, expressions, comments, etc. would be appreciated.

Happy New Year to all.

if I had to do it all over again, for the one that just ended, I'd have gone with my head over my heart. My heart made some stupid mistakes, got into something that never should have happened. My head was screaming "NO" at me... my heart went right on along with him, listened to what he had to say, to what he said he felt for me.

My head was right.

 

[SweetErika]

Re: Re: Heart vs. Head

if I had to do it all over again, for the one that just ended, I'd have gone with my head over my heart. My heart made some stupid mistakes, got into something that never should have happened. My head was screaming "NO" at me... my heart went right on along with him, listened to what he had to say, to what he said he felt for me.

My head was right.

I'm sorry you had to go through that Peggy! I remember that pain vividly, and I'm always comforted by the thought, "The only mistake is the one I didn't learn something from."

 

[babydoll2u]

Re: Re: Re: Heart vs. Head

I'm sorry you had to go through that Peggy! I remember that pain vividly, and I'm always comforted by the thought, "The only mistake is the one I didn't learn something from."

very true Erika, very true
thank you

 

[Denae]

I agree

I'm so glad that Erika posted her thoughts.

I've always felt that so long as I could learn something then a relationship wasn't a complete disaster. Sometimes I learned negatives about me, sometimes I learned what to look for next time, what to avoid, what to gravitate towards, and so on.

Just need to find the right balance between heart and head.

 

[invisigirl]

I tend to follow my heart though I listen to my head as well. Unfortunately my head often thinks too much and too suspiciously so I think it's good to fall back on the heart. I'll also add gut instinct in there. Sometimes it's not about what's logical, or what I feel, but what I believe down deep.

When I get into these kinds of conflicts I've found the best thing for me to do is to focus on the day to day for a while. Give it a break, if you will. Focusing on family, work and my personal goals outside of any relationship issues can help put the important things in perspective and I find I'm more relaxed when I come back to the issues that caused me conflict in the first place.

 

[Xectxny19X]

I'm not sure if I've been listening to my head or my heart but some insights or similar experience would be much appreciated! I've always been a predicament in that I'm very interested into someone to the point that I think I really like them...and then once they start flirting back or show their interest and I back off. I'm no longer interested. So, I'm sure I'm the "liking the chase" type. I really DO NOT like that about myself. So now, whenever I like someone, I tend not to do anything at all and just stay clear away from them b/c I really don't want to hurt anyone. I guess my question is HOW do I know that I REALLY like the person and not the chase before it's too late and I've hurt their feelings? I haven't dated since Valentine's and would really loved this cleared up b4 the next! Thanks for any help!

 

[Xectxny19X]

Unfortunately my head often thinks too much and too suspiciously so I think it's good to fall back on the heart.

I see you on that! I'm as cynical as they come! That's me though. Take care.

 

[Bobmi357]

I guess my question is HOW do I know that I REALLY like the person and not the chase before it's too late and I've hurt their feelings?

In a normal person I would say the answer is obvious.

You'll know its not the chase when the person you find leaves you feeling like chasing further is no longer necessary.

Everyone to some extent likes the initial chase, the thrill of the hunt so to speak. But once you find that special someone, the chase suddenly seems pretty lame and futile.

Having said that, there are some that thrive on the thrill of the hunt and are never satisfied with their catches. Those people need to seriously look at their lives and examine why the chase thrills them more than finding someone.

This reminds me a lot of a young engineer I once knew who was constantly on the prowl. He did all the usual routines, bars, clubs, concerts etc. Til one morning he woke up with a blinding hangover and came to the realization that he wasn't 19 and able to stay up to 5am partying and still go to work the next day.

The chase can't last forever. You can try, but sooner or later mother nature will let you know you're no longer capable of chasing all the time.

 

[Denae]

I don't even think at this point in my life I would even accept a date from someone I thought was appealing or interesting and capable of carrying on a conversation.

 

[babydoll2u]

I don't even think at this point in my life I would even accept a date from someone I thought was appealing or interesting and capable of carrying on a conversation.

it'll be a long time before I do... that's for sure

 

[niteloser]

This probably sounds naive or worse, plain stupid, but I am having (and have always had )a very hard time separating the two.

Any thoughts, ideas, expressions, comments, etc. would be appreciated.

Happy New Year to all.

I've followed my mind and made my heart cold and stone... I've tried to start following my heart recently and it just confuses me now... it hard to change once you've made a choice to go to one instead of a mix.

 

[Denae]

Haven't read this thread for some time, but started at the beginning and reread everyone's posts.

I did not to intend this as a bump, but I hope to hear more from you all. Everyone has given me food for thought and I selfishly want more.

 

[morag]

Haven't read this thread for some time, but started at the beginning and reread everyone's posts.

I did not to intend this as a bump, but I hope to hear more from you all. Everyone has given me food for thought and I selfishly want more.

as a romantic who's spent a lifetime blindly following her heart, i think the best advice i could give would be to keep your eyes open and engage both heart & head.

i still believe that without passion and desire, we are not fully alive; but i also believe that our hearts are innocent and will benefit from the guidance our heads can offer. any time we open our hearts to passion and love, we become vulnerable to feelings of joy/fulfillment and sorrow/loss. i think our heads help us to cope with both of these and help us to find the courage to accept whatever happens. if we can achieve some balance within ourselves, we can follow our hearts and be wise enough to make choices we can live with.

hope this makes some sort of sense

 

[Cathleen]

Sure made sense to me morag - great sense.

I've been feeling a bit of struggle lately - as if one or the other had to be 'in charge'. When they work in tandem, the balance works for me. I do know there are times when one is more powerful then the other and those times can really be nice too.

I suppose I've become unafraid or become more comfortable knowing that the balance can and will shift and that those times are quite nice. When I'm off balance I'm no long scrammbling to regain the balance - I let it flow and just feel it.

It is a nice and comfortable place to be inside.

 

[morag]

Sure made sense to me morag - great sense.

I've been feeling a bit of struggle lately - as if one or the other had to be 'in charge'. When they work in tandem, the balance works for me. I do know there are times when one is more powerful then the other and those times can really be nice too.

I suppose I've become unafraid or become more comfortable knowing that the balance can and will shift and that those times are quite nice. When I'm off balance I'm no long scrammbling to regain the balance - I let it flow and just feel it.

It is a nice and comfortable place to be inside.

cathleen, i just went back and read your posts ~ had i done that in the 1st place, i would have realised that you've already said what i was trying to say ( and you said it verry well, too!)

i applaud you for your fearlessness ... i know women who have opened themselves but couldn't bear the intensity of the ups 'n downs ... closed themselves up again in a hurry

i struggle always with the head/heart balancing act, but try to be mindful of the fact that everything is in a constant state of change ~ like the wheel of fortune card in the tarot suggests, we must allow the changes to take place, not try to control everything that happens. doesn't mean we can't try to influence 'em tho', does it?

 

[shlock]

There is a fine line ...

cathleen, i just went back and read your posts ~ had i done that in the 1st place, i would have realised that you've already said what i was trying to say ( and you said it verry well, too!)

i applaud you for your fearlessness ... i know women who have opened themselves but couldn't bear the intensity of the ups 'n downs ... closed themselves up again in a hurry

i struggle always with the head/heart balancing act, but try to be mindful of the fact that everything is in a constant state of change ~ like the wheel of fortune card in the tarot suggests, we must allow the changes to take place, not try to control everything that happens. doesn't mean we can't try to influence 'em tho', does it?

There is a fine line between "MAN" and "beast"...
. . .the "beast" has no choice but to follow the whims and tsunami tides of its desires and instincts, while the human being does.
--- oh and thumbs!... the beast has no thumbs!
So many fall to the heavily bunkered fortress inside the injured heart... be strong y'all!

 

[Nightbird]

*bump* because this is a good thread.

 

[manofsteel52]

Hmmm...appears as though I've done just the opposite of most here. I've always listened to my heart, and now - at age 44, never married, no kids - I wished I would have kept my brain engaged.

When people hear about my life they tell me they are envious and wished they could have done what I've done. I've also known all the "thrilling" guys. Yeah, the ones who can make exciting sex? All the while fucking everything that moves, have no concept of what commitment means, and never quite got over the fact that 21 is a chronological age and usually people progress beyond it.

Now? I go in with my brain. I have a lot of excess baggage and trust issues, and that is difficult to lay at the feet of any decent person one expects to get involved with. I've now met a man who most might consider "boring" and I find him thoroughly exciting. He's there for me, he'll hold me when I cry at sappy movies, he'll take time out on watching football on Sundays to fix a gate and assemble a bookcase. After decades of being involved with men who made themselves scarce unless only sex - and that is ONLY sex - was involved, this man is a continual wonderment to me.

Sometimes I just want to kick myself for hours for bothering with those immature boys because my heart told me they were "fun", "exciting", "thrilling". I'll settle for what most people consider "boring" now. I'm too old to play the games that the "thrilling" guys love to play.

Learn to think before jumping, but enjoy what you have with all your heart. How do you do this? One, look at the guy and truly try to discern if your parents would approve. Then two, is this the man you would want to have his hands all over your daughter? Normally those two thoughts keep me in line, now. Before I thought it was a good thing to go against what my parents thought/liked. Yes, I know brilliant. The two people who loved me more than anyone in the world were only out to make my life miserable. (As you can tell I was fairly stupid when I was younger!)

I've known an incredible number of women in your position, and I've never beenable to fathom why they make those choices. I still remember being friends with girls as a teenager, listening to their stories about the assholeboyfriends and how they weretreated, andwonder why the hell they let these cretins treat them like this.
I now have two adult daughters, and still don't get it. After years of dating jerks, the oldest(28) has finally found a great guy to spent her life with, the youngest is still wading throught the pile of rubbish.

 

[it_matters]

Good thread. Good when people are trying to figure it out -- because whether you are thinking about it or not, you're living the same thing. I want to connect, I want the connection to last, I want to grow, want to feel good, want my body to open to another. I -really- want my body to open to another.

Know what? Nobody gets training in this stuff: you walk it off on your own, make the best guesses, and learn. There is this great refrain from a song by Alanis Morissette:

You grieve you learn
You choke you learn
You laugh you learn
You choose you learn
You pray you learn
You ask you learn
You live you learn​

Just repeats it over and over like a mantra, until maybe you (and maybe she) gets it: feeling pain doesn't mean it's your fault.

We can be really gentle with ourselves on this one: it felt like shit, but it wasn't your head in the way, and it wasn't your heart in the way... it was just the pain of trying, and getting something, and then losing it. We can be gentle and say "oh, shit that hurt"... and then open up again. Open up again and again, because the real pain is not when something had value and was ripped from you, the REAL pain is when that loss makes you stop loving, stop opening. This is an erotica board, so the answer should be obvious and easy ... but I'm sorry, you're never going to have a release that blows you away unless you're vulnerable.

I think the real fear is not what someone else is going to do to you, but your uncertainty that you are able to avoid getting into the same mess all over again. Pain is a physical thing. You burned your finger, and approach the fire with so much caution. If the room starts to warm up, you're already looking for an exit.

So to take it out of theory: 15 years ago I met someone and it was love at first sight. So much in common! And love at that time was a matter of chemistry and decision: we decide to be together. We travel, we live in her country, we have children! Wow. We return here. Life is.. whatever life is. We try for years to keep our Heads and our Hearts clean... and love died anyway (details some other time, perhaps).

Fifteen years of love and struggle really confuses the body and the mind. And a "failure" like this makes everybody feel powerless... powerless to have love. What, together for 15 years, sharing all this, and you couldn't make it work? No! couldn't make it work! That's all. Powerless to have love.

Well, the only person powerless to have love is the one who says it is all happening outside themselves. The heart is yours, the fear is yours, and the ability to take a deep breath and say "I really want to open up again -- could you be the one?" is also yours. I think that we are really on to something when we start to feel that fear, when something is starting to be really important to us again. Instead of moving away from that fear, I think you have to zero in on it, dig into it, allow it to be there... and say "it is NOT because all women/men are this way"...

I am attracted to that place like a moth to fire -- I have been burned up, but look: moths are related to the Phoenix, they (apparently) rise from the ashes again and again. Who would have guessed. Dig into that scar tissue and let it soften up again. Let the legs open up and allow another body to wind into your again (btw, I am talking to myself on this one heh heh). And if it is really special... who knows? You're together til the end of your lives? And then, my dear friends, you say the biggest, most painful farewell of all!

I don't know. This struggle is all we've got. You've got to love the pain, because it meant something was worth while. It's a good life -- hard to live but very very good. Especially when you are able to give and receive good loving -- once in a while!

You choose you learn
You pray you learn
You ask you learn
You live you learn

 

[Cathleen]

Excellent post in_matters. Some really good stuff there. Also, welcome to Lit.

... the REAL pain is when that loss makes you stop loving, stop opening.

You hit me between the eyes with these words. Real pain is in giving up. I'll take the heartbreak, it is far better for my soul then not ever had opened my heart at all. Thanks for reminding me of that.

 

[Avery_Chisholm]

Good thread. Good when people are trying to figure it out -- because whether you are thinking about it or not, you're living the same thing. I want to connect, I want the connection to last, I want to grow, want to feel good, want my body to open to another. I -really- want my body to open to another.

Know what? Nobody gets training in this stuff: you walk it off on your own, make the best guesses, and learn. There is this great refrain from a song by Alanis Morissette:

You grieve you learn
You choke you learn
You laugh you learn
You choose you learn
You pray you learn
You ask you learn
You live you learn​

Just repeats it over and over like a mantra, until maybe you (and maybe she) gets it: feeling pain doesn't mean it's your fault.

We can be really gentle with ourselves on this one: it felt like shit, but it wasn't your head in the way, and it wasn't your heart in the way... it was just the pain of trying, and getting something, and then losing it. We can be gentle and say "oh, shit that hurt"... and then open up again. Open up again and again, because the real pain is not when something had value and was ripped from you, the REAL pain is when that loss makes you stop loving, stop opening. This is an erotica board, so the answer should be obvious and easy ... but I'm sorry, you're never going to have a release that blows you away unless you're vulnerable.

I think the real fear is not what someone else is going to do to you, but your uncertainty that you are able to avoid getting into the same mess all over again. Pain is a physical thing. You burned your finger, and approach the fire with so much caution. If the room starts to warm up, you're already looking for an exit.

So to take it out of theory: 15 years ago I met someone and it was love at first sight. So much in common! And love at that time was a matter of chemistry and decision: we decide to be together. We travel, we live in her country, we have children! Wow. We return here. Life is.. whatever life is. We try for years to keep our Heads and our Hearts clean... and love died anyway (details some other time, perhaps).

Fifteen years of love and struggle really confuses the body and the mind. And a "failure" like this makes everybody feel powerless... powerless to have love. What, together for 15 years, sharing all this, and you couldn't make it work? No! couldn't make it work! That's all. Powerless to have love.

Well, the only person powerless to have love is the one who says it is all happening outside themselves. The heart is yours, the fear is yours, and the ability to take a deep breath and say "I really want to open up again -- could you be the one?" is also yours. I think that we are really on to something when we start to feel that fear, when something is starting to be really important to us again. Instead of moving away from that fear, I think you have to zero in on it, dig into it, allow it to be there... and say "it is NOT because all women/men are this way"...

I am attracted to that place like a moth to fire -- I have been burned up, but look: moths are related to the Phoenix, they (apparently) rise from the ashes again and again. Who would have guessed. Dig into that scar tissue and let it soften up again. Let the legs open up and allow another body to wind into your again (btw, I am talking to myself on this one heh heh). And if it is really special... who knows? You're together til the end of your lives? And then, my dear friends, you say the biggest, most painful farewell of all!

I don't know. This struggle is all we've got. You've got to love the pain, because it meant something was worth while. It's a good life -- hard to live but very very good. Especially when you are able to give and receive good loving -- once in a while!

You choose you learn
You pray you learn
You ask you learn
You live you learn

Well said
I am going through something similar have been burnt by love and just finding my footing and starting to get back into the game taking it one day at time i believe this HURT will go away eventually...