Help me design a 16th Century-style fantasy warship.

[AndersonsBiographer]

One more thing that concerns world-building. How are all those different planets at the same level of science and technology? For planets that weren't previously in touch with each other, that is extremely unlikely. So you need to come up with some explanation for that. For all planets to roughly equalize in science and technology it would take centuries of continuous trading and travel among them.
Sorry, this is the topic I love so I can't help myself

The only known intelligent life in this universe are humans and the now-absent creators of the portal. Humans have only been portaging for a few hundred years, and there's enough inter-planetary contact that technology levels haven't diverged widely.

One planet's culture is inspired by a mix of North African and Southeast Asian sultanates. I do have it noted that their dhows and jongs are considered at least as impressive as anything designed by more European-inspired cultures. Dutch and Portuguese sailors really did feel that way about many of the Javanese ships they encountered

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

... well, I'm going to tie you down and narrate them to you.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

No, I'm probably not going to sail it into Thunder Bay, lay siege to the city, and establish a pirate republic.

For those unfamiliar with the river in question, the Saskatchewan River is about knee-deep for most of its length, useful (for cargo) as a shortbread train wheel.

Sorry AB, but I couldn't resist, especially with somebody referring to Thunder Bay.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I started reading the first and gave up after about three pages. I don't remember much except I couldn't continue.

The series isn't half bad. There are some cringe-worthy things, like the author's obvious obsession with cats and the pervasive young adult feel, but there are some really good moments as well. To be fair, the young adult thing is plentiful in his Dresden Files as well, maybe not in the very first ones and maybe not in the couple of last ones, but overall, there is plenty of young adult feel in them. I dislike it there, and I dislike it in Sanderson's work too, but I guess they are both reaching out towards a wider audience, the one more likely to buy their books

 

[AndersonsBiographer]

They weigh significantly less than age of sail warships, for starters. They're built out of marine plywood and the thickest bits of this will be the foot and planing surfaces of the hull, the rest just needs to be thick enough to withstand the aerodynamic forces which (at the maximum speed of most flying boats) is not significant. Also, apart from the spars of the wings, almost every other part of the aircraft is not load-bearing.

Age of Sail ships had to be built to withstand storms and, in the case of warships, sustained cannon fire. The design principles are radically different. HMS Victory had a displacement of 3,500 long tons (very long in Hardy's case, by all accounts...) while the Hercules (aka the Spruce Goose) displaced 210 metric tonnes at maximum take off load. They had to be built to take the force of up to three masts of full canvas, on a pitching and yawing deck, often in extreme conditions. A first rate line of battle ship is, in some ways, the absolute peak of evolution up one part of Mount Improbable.

The ocean is a merciless mistress; engineering for a surface nautical environment is in many ways harder than engineering for space. Every little bit of an age of sail ship was a product of hundreds of years of learning, often from the dead.

Interesting.

Ships at this time period aren't quite that big. 2,000 tons seems to be about as big as they get on either end of Eurasia. The Great Michael was among the biggest, and so expensive to build and maintain that the Scots had to sell it to France after Flodden, who may or may not have used it at the Battle of the Solent.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Model_of_'The_Michael',_Newhaven_Primary_School,_Edinburgh.JPG
https://archive.org/details/historiecronicle01lind/page/n5/mode/2up

In the same yeir [1512] the king of Scottland bigit [built] ane great scheip callit the Great Michell quhilk was the greattest scheip and maist of strength that ewer saillit in Ingland or France. For this scheip was of so greit statur and tuik so mekill [much] timber that scho waistit all the wodis in Fyfe except Falkland wode, by [besidesl all the tymmer that was gottin out of Noraway. Scho was so strang and wyde of length and breid that all the wryghtis [carpenters] of Scottland ye and money wther strangeris was at hir devyse be the kingis commandement quho wroght werie bessielie [very busily] on hir, bot it was yeir and day or [ere] scho was compleit. To wit, scho was xij scoir of futtis of length [12 score foot long] and xxxv futte withtin the wallis; scho was ten fute thik in the waill, cuttit jeastis of aik [joists of oak] witht hir wallis and burdis [strakes] on ewerie syde sa stark and thik that na canon could gang throw hir. This great schipe cummerit [troubled] Scottland to get hir to the sie; from tyme scho was aflott and all hir mastis and saillis compleit, witht towis and ankeris effeirand [belonging] thairto scho was comptit [calculated] to the king to be xxx thowsand pund of expenssis by [besides] hir artaillye quhilk was werie great and costlie to the king by [besides] all the laif [rest] of hir order. To wit, scho buire mony cannons sex on everie syde witht thrie great basselis [basilisks], tua behind in hir dock and ane befoir, witht iijc [300] schott of small artaillyie, that is to say moyen and batterit facouns [falcons] and quarter fallcouns, slingis, pestelent serpitantis [serpentines], and doubill doggis witht hagbut and cullvering, corsebowis [crossbows] and handbowis. Scho had iijc [300] marienaris to saill hir, sex scoir of gounnaris [but see note] to wse hir artaillye for this scho had ane thouwsand men of weir by [besides] hir captans skipiris and quarter maisteris. Quhen this scheip past to the sie and was lyand in the rade [roadstead], the king gart [had] schot ane cannon at hir to say hir gif scho was wicht [strong], bot I hard say [from his sources, Wood and Barton] it deirit [damaged] hir nocht and did her lyttill skaith [harm]. [Note: The Treasurer's Accounts list 295 "mariners of the great ship", but only 14 gunners and 4 "men" for the artillery.]

I don't speak Medieval Scots, but I hard say that it becomes surprisingly more understandable if you read it out loud in an old-fashioned Appalachian accent. Here's a lazy attempt at a full English translation:

In the same year (1512) the king of Scotland built a great ship called the Great Michael which was the greatest ship and most of strength the ever sailed in England or France. For this ship was of such great stature that took so much timber that she consumed all the woods of Fife except for the wood in Falkland, besides all the timber that was gotten out of Norway. She was so strong and wide of length and breadth that all the carpenters of Scotland, yes and many other foreigners was at her devising by the kind's command, who was very busily on her, but it was year and day before she was complete. To whit, she was 240 feet long and 35 feet withing the walls, she was ten foot thick in the wall (wale?), cut joists of oak with her walls and stakes on every side so stark and thick that no cannon could go through her. The great ship cumbered Scotland to get her to the sea; from time she was afloat and all her masts and sails complete, with tows (hawsers?) belonging thereto she was calculated to the king to be three thousand pounds of expenses besides her artillery which was very great and costly to the king besides all the rest of her order. To wit, she bore many cannons six on every side with three great basilisks, two behind in her dock and one before, with 300 shot of small artillery, that is to say moyen, and batteries falcons and quarter-falcons, and slings, pestilent (harmful) serpentines, and double dogs (two-man teams?) with hackbut and culverin (hand-held firearms), crossbows, and handbows. She had 300 mariners to sail her, 120 gunners to use her artillery for this she had one thousand men of war besides her captains, skippers, and quarter masters. When this ship passed to the sea and was lying in the roadstead (harbor anchorage), the king caused shot and cannon (to be fired?) at her to say her (determine) whether she was strong. But I heard say it damaged her not and she did little harm.

 

[AndersonsBiographer]

The series isn't half bad. There are some cringe-worthy things, like the author's obvious obsession with cats and the pervasive young adult feel, but there are some really good moments as well. To be fair, the young adult thing is plentiful in his Dresden Files as well, maybe not in the very first ones and maybe not in the couple of last ones, but overall, there is plenty of young adult feel in them. I dislike it there, and I dislike it in Sanderson's work too, but I guess they are both reaching out towards a wider audience, the one more likely to buy their books

"Oh shit. Hellhounds."
"Harry, you know I don't like it when you swear."
"Sorry. Oh shit. Heckhounds."

 

[StillStunned]

I don't speak Medieval Scots, but

Ah, flashbacks to "The Kingis Quair" and "The Thrissil and the Rois"! I got pretty good at Middle English, but Middle Scots was never less than a struggle.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

AwkwardlySet pretty well nailed it.

There’s no reason IRL to make a flying ship look like a sailing ship, any more than HMS Victory resembles an Airbus 330. Indeed, IRL, there are endless reasons not to.

Okay, that said, this is a fantasy and you as the writer can do anything you want, with the sole limit being your ability to make it credible. Look at Pratchett’s Discworld. The entire thing is impossible IRL, so Sir Terry just ignored IRL science and used magic to do things science wouldn’t touch. His genius was making that work.

What I’m trying to say, I suppose, is to ignore reality when it suits you. Forget trying to steer the thing with a rudder, forget hull planks drying out and all of that. Make the thing look like the Vasa if you want, but do it for artistic or symbolic reasons and steer around realities that stand in your way.

Good luck

 

[AwkwardlySet]

AwkwardlySet pretty well nailed it.

There’s no reason IRL to make a flying ship look like a sailing ship, any more than HMS Victory resembles an Airbus 330. Indeed, IRL, there are endless reasons not to.

Okay, that said, this is a fantasy and you as the writer can do anything you want, with the sole limit being your ability to make it credible. Look at Pratchett’s Discworld. The entire thing is impossible IRL, so Sir Terry just ignored IRL science and used magic to do things science wouldn’t touch. His genius was making that work.

What I’m trying to say, I suppose, is to ignore reality when it suits you. Forget trying to steer the thing with a rudder, forget hull planks drying out and all of that. Make the thing look like the Vasa if you want, but do it for artistic or symbolic reasons and steer around realities that stand in your way.

Good luck

If I understood the OP correctly, those ships actually sail on water for most of the time. It's only when they reach a portal between planets that they rise up, powered by magic from the portal pulling on their wings or something.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Oh, I get it, truly. The problem is that IRL oak-and-iron sailing ships just don’t fly very well and trying to figure out how to make them fly is doomed to failure. So just drop the concept of making something work both as an IRL anvil and as an IRL hot-air balloon. Build their ship however they want it to look and use magic to make it work. Once there’s suitable water, by all means float down and sail away, but if it’s going to take magic to get it out of the water, then belief in IRL has already been suspended and the author can do whatever they want.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Oh, I get it, truly. The problem is that IRL oak-and-iron sailing ships just don’t fly very well and trying to figure out how to make them fly is doomed to failure. So just drop the concept of making something work both as an IRL anvil and as an IRL hot-air balloon. Build their ship however they want it to look and use magic to make it work. Once there’s suitable water, by all means float down and sail away, but it’s going to take magic to get it out of the water, then briefly in IRL has already been suspended and the author can do whatever they want.

What amazes me is why the OP even thinks it's an issue. They're worrying about timber warpage and water leaking in, but they want to fly it through interstellar space? Surely you define your own physics when you use magic, and make it do whatever the hell you want?

 

[Bramblethorn]

The ocean is a merciless mistress; engineering for a surface nautical environment is in many ways harder than engineering for space. Every little bit of an age of sail ship was a product of hundreds of years of learning, often from the dead.

What shipwrights really love though is working with monarchs who take an active interest in the design. When you're halfway through the project and the King pays a visit and strokes his beard and says "coming along nicely, but you know what, let's add another gun deck". That's the kind of thing that makes the designers feel noticed and appreciated.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Can you imagine how much you could earn writing erotica in a world like that? Every ship would need a Senior Smut Officer, with a handful of Junior Smut Officers to assist. A good Smut Officer has to know what their ship's preferred kinks are, and whether they like strokers or long-form stories.

Reminds me of "The Red Scholar's Wake", where a woman captured by pirates enters into an arranged marriage with their ship. It gets quite steamy in places.

(Nominally, space pirates and spaceship, but it feels more like a sail-fantasy story transplanted to space than hard SF.)

 

[onehitwanda]

What shipwrights really love though is working with monarchs who take an active interest in the design. When you're halfway through the project and the King pays a visit and strokes his beard and says "coming along nicely, but you know what, let's add another gun deck". That's the kind of thing that makes the designers feel noticed and appreciated.

Especially since monarchs are well-versed in nautical engineering.

Getting the leadership involved in design is like trying to brew tea in a chocolate teapot. Sounds like a great idea, but it's going to burn someone's nuts.

 

[Britva415]

What shipwrights really love though is working with monarchs who take an active interest in the design. When you're halfway through the project and the King pays a visit and strokes his beard and says "coming along nicely, but you know what, let's add another gun deck". That's the kind of thing that makes the designers feel noticed and appreciated.

Yeah, not like when they bicker about what color to paint the bike shed.

 

[MrHereWriting]

What you are describing is definitely going to require some suspension of disbelief. Then again, if it's magic that is keeping those ships in the air, you should be all right. When you use magic, you don't really need to sell the science of it all. You can even use some special metal, some crystal or whatever as the material that soaks up magical energies and keeps the ships in the air, although using crystals would make it too similar to Jim Butcher's work.

That's not a ground-breaking concept.

I've never read Jim Butcher, but I've had ideas like that since I was a kid, probably got them from cartoons and video games.

The real trick is to sell interplanetary travel while the technology is still at the level of the Age of Sail as most people associate such achievements with high tech. Still, I can't see why it wouldn't work. By the way, if those portals are static - if they are always in the same place, then it makes sense that someone would want to take control of them, to control traffic towards other planets. Just a few thoughts.

Raymond E. Feist had characters travelling between worlds on the backs of dragons, fighting others coming from other worlds, with references to men in ships, and never once did it take me out of the story.. I also posted a fantasy story for one of the contests here (later removed) that had portals for ships to sail through. In a world of magic, not one reader said that was unbelievable.

It's best not to overthink things as a writer when you don't have to.

 

[ElectricBlue]

It's best not to overthink things as a writer when you don't have to.

As this thread demonstrates! I swear the OP thinks his ship is real, and the concept legit: as if we're all meant to know the magic. It's like drop bears, fair dinkum .

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Especially since monarchs are well-versed in nautical engineering.

Getting the leadership involved in design is like trying to brew tea in a chocolate teapot. Sounds like a great idea, but it's going to burn someone's nuts.

One outstanding exception being Tsar Peter the Great, but yes.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

That's not a ground-breaking concept.

I've never read Jim Butcher, but I've had ideas like that since I was a kid, probably got them from cartoons and video games.



Raymond E. Feist had characters travelling between worlds on the backs of dragons, fighting others coming from other worlds, with references to men in ships, and never once did it take me out of the story.. I also posted a fantasy story for one of the contests here (later removed) that had portals for ships to sail through. In a world of magic, not one reader said that was unbelievable.

It's best not to overthink things as a writer when you don't have to.

Your position is a practical one no doubt, but I don't completely agree. It's a matter of the author's choice how much suspension of disbelief they are going to ask of their readers. Some authors pride themselves on explaining the mechanics of their magic and their world to readers and setting some coherent rules that their fantasy world has to follow. The rules are restricting for the author as they generally prevent deus ex machina and similar bullshit. The reader knows what can and can not happen. Brandon Sanderson calls those "Hard rules of magic" (His work most often follows Hard rules as magic and powers are explained in detail and readers know the limitations of such power.) Personally, I prefer this approach and I believe this one is harder to write, harder to imagine, and harder to keep coherent.

There is another approach, called "Soft rules of magic" (Lord of the Rings can be an example of this approach) where the focus is on the story and characters and the world itself, but readers don't exactly know where the magic and power come from and what their limitations are. This approach is much less restricting for the author and it's also easier to write in my opinion.
Of course, there are plenty of Fantasy and SciFi novels that fall somewhere in between those two approaches.

My point is, he can be vague or he can be detailed. It will be harder if he chooses to be detailed and explain the mechanics as he is going to limit himself in a way and he will also have to be careful not to "break" his mechanics. His choice.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Your position is a practical one no doubt, but I don't completely agree. It's a matter of the author's choice how much suspension of disbelief they are going to ask of their readers. Some authors pride themselves on explaining the mechanics of their magic and their world to readers and setting some coherent rules that their fantasy world has to follow. The rules are restricting for the author as they generally prevent deus ex machina and similar bullshit.

An author can prevent deus ex machine and similar bullshit by not doing it, and like you, I'm not a fan of those things.

The reader knows what can and can not happen. Brandon Sanderson calls those "Hard rules of magic" (His work most often follows Hard rules as magic and powers are explained in detail and readers know the limitations of such power.) Personally, I prefer this approach and I believe this one is harder to write, harder to imagine, and harder to keep coherent.

There is another approach, called "Soft rules of magic" (Lord of the Rings can be an example of this approach) where the focus is on the story and characters and the world itself, but readers don't exactly know where the magic and power come from and what their limitations are. This approach is much less restricting for the author and it's also easier to write in my opinion.
Of course, there are plenty of Fantasy and SciFi novels that fall somewhere in between those two approaches.

Whether you're a stickler for rules (I used to be stats guy, and when I was younger, I loved making in-depth fantasy systems, magic systems, brand new D&D classes with an absurd amount of detail) or whether you like a little more leeway, it's harder to write a good story and it's easier to write a bad one.

My point is, he can be vague or he can be detailed. It will be harder if he chooses to be detailed and explain the mechanics as he is going to limit himself in a way and he will also have to be careful not to "break" his mechanics. His choice.

He can be whatever he wants to be, and he can do it without overthinking things, but if that's his method, so be it, but I still advise against overthinking things.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

WRT detailed explanations, I'll again refer to Pratchett's Discworld, essentially a huge flat plate with water constantly falling off the Rim into space. So where does all that water come from, how does it get replaced? Pratchett could have gone into some long explanation. Instead, he merely said, "Arrangements have been made."

Perfect!

The basic premise on the part of the OP has a lot of merit and a lot of potential. My only point is that the old saying, The Devil's in the details! can be taken two ways.

 

[onehitwanda]

The Devil's in the details! can be taken two ways.

Give to much detail, or go too deeply into a process that you do not fully understand, and some pedant (like yours truly) is going to scoff and roll her eyes (and, possibly, post really hurtful remarks and unnecessarily-harsh, cutting rebuttals of your hard work).

sometimes "magic sky rock am make Thag powerful" is more effective than inventing some ridiculous system involving midi-chlorians.

 

[Bamagan]

Give to much detail, or go too deeply into a process that you do not fully understand, and some pedant (like yours truly) is going to scoff and roll her eyes (and, possibly, post really hurtful remarks and unnecessarily-harsh, cutting rebuttals of your hard work).

sometimes "magic sky rock am make Thag powerful" is more effective than inventing some ridiculous system involving midi-chlorians.

I'm still suspicious that George Lucas was trying to say mitochondria and was just too lazy to crack open a book or ask someone with high-school level biology knowledge to double-check his work.

 

[onehitwanda]

I'm still suspicious that George Lucas was trying to say mitochondria and was just too lazy to crack open a book or ask someone with high-school level biology knowledge to double-check his work.

There are only three Star Wars movies. The rest are all hallucinations.

 

[Bamagan]

There are only three Star Wars movies. The rest are all hallucinations.

I've lost faith that even those are real. For me, all that remains is John Williams' score.