HELP ME PLEASE! All advice wanted

[kaledonia]

who is brad pitt?

...sorry, just joking. women are not nearly as visually stimulated as men, and are as likely to react to nice teeth, easy laughter or thoughtfulness. bashful can be cool too, but not when it renders you dysfunctional! and personally. I'd rather you smelt of man, soap and fresh air than any combination of aftershave, deodorant or cologne!

 

[BrenVarouse]

............

 

[M's girl]

Hello all,

I've got a date for thursday! Yay! Now... the details. We're going for a drink at a pub on campus. If all goes well and she seems receptive (and weather permitting) I thought I might invite her to go for a walk with me on the beach nearby. Do you think that would be kosher? I thought it might be a little more intimate and romantic, maybe give me an opportunity to break the physical barrier and take her hand or put my arm around her. What do y'all think?

I think you should bring a basket with a plaid and drinks for your beach walk. Champagne (bring real glasses!) and some fresh fruit (strawberries) will do nicely. If you want to be the true romantic you bring flowers too (one rose works wonders or fresh flowers you picked for her that day). During the drinks at the pub you could hold up the basket in front of her and ask her if she want to share what's inside with you on the beach or something like that. Be bold, seduce her!

Good luck and have fun!

 

[NaiveOne]

I think you should bring a basket with a plaid and drinks for your beach walk. Champagne (bring real glasses!) and some fresh fruit (strawberries) will do nicely. If you want to be the true romantic you bring flowers too (one rose works wonders or fresh flowers you picked for her that day). During the drinks at the pub you could hold up the basket in front of her and ask her if she want to share what's inside with you on the beach or something like that. Be bold, seduce her!

Good luck and have fun!

Ummm..... I think this will freak her out and scare her into avoiding you for the rest of your university career. Not to mention you will be black listed by all her friends.

It's just a drink in a pub.

Yeah, if the conversation is amazing and it seems like she's not in a hurry to get back to homework, suggest a walk. Maybe around campus, where there are other people. Unless I know a guy well, I'm not going off to a secluded beach! And unless the chemistry is there or I already trust the guy, I don't want him putting his arm around me or reaching for my hand.

It's so awesome you got a date!

I'm really happy for you!

But don't blow it by trying to move things exceedingly fast. It's just a drink in a bar.

Let us know how it goes.

Good luck!!!!

 

[LadyJeanne]

Ummm..... I think this will freak her out and scare her into avoiding you for the rest of your university career. Not to mention you will be black listed by all her friends.

It's just a drink in a pub.

Yeah, if the conversation is amazing and it seems like she's not in a hurry to get back to homeowrk, suggest a walk. Maybe around campus, where there are other people. Unless I know a guy well, I'm not going off to a secluded beach! And unless the chemistry is there or I already trust the guy, I don't want him putting his arm around me or reaching for my hand.

It's so awesome you got a date!

I'm really happy for you!

But don't blow it by trying to move things exceedingly fast. It's just a drink in a bar.

Let us know how it goes.

Good luck!!!!

I'm with you on this one - meeting for drinks in a pub is one thing...walks on the beach with full picnic basket is a bit much.

Have fun!

 

[NaiveOne]

So......

How'd the date go?!?!??!?!?!?!

 

[M's girl]

Ummm..... I think this will freak her out and scare her into avoiding you for the rest of your university career. Not to mention you will be black listed by all her friends.

Freak her out? Wow! Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration? After all he does have (did have - did the date take place yet?) romantic motives and he who does not dare, does not win....

I would not mind at all if someone showed up all prepared like that, even if I was not sure what kind of date it would be. If I had 'plans' with the guy I would think it was sweet and romantic and all that. If I thought it was a bit much I would tell him how considerate I thought it was (anyway) and how much I liked the gesture, although I was not romantically interested. As far as I would be concerned I could enjoy it anyway and so should he.

Lighten up you guys! (Or are we Dutch really too straight forward?)

 

[distantdahlia]

leaving everyone hanging???

i just read this whole thread, and now i want to know how the date went!

i would like to offer a small bit of advice to you. you have an intense eagerness about finding a connection with someone, but if a women picks up on that vibe from you-that you just want "someone" (ANYONE) to take the bait, so to speak, it might be a turn off. it can also lead to women taking advantage of you and just using you for the attention.

it is nice to be singled out by a guy for a specific reason, it is very flattering. here you are in class with hundreds of others, but you just had to ask HER out because: (insert some flattering reason here ie-she is so pretty/smart/funny/has such a nice ass-whatever, you get the point).

i'm not saying that you have to "announce" it in that fashion, but i think if you took the chance early on to convey that there was a specific attraction involved in you taking the time to talk to her-it may alleviate some of the awkwardness when it comes to the "just friends" issue.

good luck, you seem like a nice guy!!!

 

[BrenVarouse]

...........

 

[SweetErika]

I've been following this thread with interest, and am glad you're moving closer to where you want to be, Bren.

Its true, I am eager (more out of loneliness and feeling like I'm missing out on something than anything else) but I'm not desperate. I won't settle for just anyone, and I certainly wont allow myself to be used. I've been there before with previous relationships and one VERY exploitve psuedo-relationship (the girl I went to Europe with). There was a time I was desperate, and I did end up sleeping with someone who I probably wouldn't have slept with otherwise. I don't exactly regret it (it was great) but its not precisely my proudest moment. It was just a one-night and ultimately left me just as lonely (if less horny). But it's a keen observation. So... how do I avoid giving off that sickly scent of desperation while at the same time actively pursuing a love-life? I realize that may seem a strange question to most of you, but your feedback and advice has been of true value to me and has helped emensley (sp?. I just can't spell tonight), so any comments, even if they seem obvious, are valued.

It sounds like you're on the right track already. You're NOT desperate, just dating actively, and looking for good matches. I think there's a lot of value in being confident and stressing the facts that you're self-sufficient, not desperate, and won't settle for less than compatibility (over say, lonliness and feeling like you're missing out) to yourself. I bet it wouldn't hurt to repeat that type of message daily, and before/during you enter situations where you may find potential dates.

As always, inquisitive the way I am, being in the bar last night (and I don't go to bars very often so it isn't suprising that this didn't occur to me before) made me think (when I was on my way home, not while I was on the date, that would be rude). How does one pick up a girl in a bar? I've never done it (I've really never "picked up" anyone anywhere before) but I know guys who do it all the time. If I'm sitting in a bar and I see a pretty girl across the room and I want to say hi or buy her a drink, how do I go about doing that without seeming like a sleezebag who just wants to get in her pants? Or what about one of the employees? Or an employee at my dentist office (I've had a thing for the receptionist girl for years but never asked her out because I didn't want it to be awkward if she said no. Of course, just my luck, now she has a bf and all of the other people at the dental office kept hoping I would ask her out because she said she liked me... D'oh!).

Without advice, what would your approach be? You'd likely walk right up, say hello, introduce yourself, and start a conversation, right? If you got a good feeling, you'd ask if you could buy her a drink, or if she'd like to go out.

My point is that you're doing well, and don't want to get sucked back into the trap of overthinking everything. Be confident, natural, and just go for it!

There is some great advice on specifics in these threads if you're interested:
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=341450
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=378088 (There are several links in post 4 in this one)

I will shortly be uploading a picture of myself (I think the first clothed one I have here on lit) and I wouldn't mind some constructive criticisms on how I can improve my look to be more attractive. As well, any reccomendations on ways I can show off my strengths around women will be welcomed. One of my best (and apparently attractive, says one of my friends-who-is-a-girl) strengths is the fact that I can sing. But its not something that you can just do on a date without some reason. So... Karaoke anyone? Or is that lame?

It's always nice to put a person to posts.

I don't think Karaoke is lame, but it's your dates' opinions that matter. I'd suggest asking them if they like to sing, have ever done karaoke, etc., and maybe duets or something so you're still together.

I'm also an excellent conversationalist, but at a point it becomes less conversation and more of an interactive lecture. I don't mean to do it, but when it comes to topics I'm well versed on (and passionate about) it just happens and by the time I realize what I'm doing, its too late. At the same time though, I am a very good listener (again, not my opinion, but the comments of women I know). Any suggestions on how I can curb my natural professor tendencies and encourage a more balanced approach to conversation that expresses interest while at the same time not seeming eager, would be great.

I know exactly what you're talking about because my hubby does this as well. You might practice stopping yourself to ask them questions and encourage elaboration. Another thought is to maybe save some of your elaboration for future conversations. The first few dates are about getting to know eachother, so you may want to go for more (kinda 'surface') topics as opposed to a few in-depth ones. If you find yourself doing the professorial thing, you can transition by recognizing you're dominating the conversation and asking her an open question (e.g. "I'm really passionate about this, but feel like I'm talking too much. [she'll likely deny that, and might ask you to continue or will be quiet herself] What are you passionate about?" -- the point is that you're showing sensitivity and interest in her).

I'm not advocating not speaking your mind, but rather saving some for later. That can be a good segue for future dates as well -- for example, you could say something like, "I'd love to discuss ____ more with you in the future. Could we continue this conversation next week?"-- or whatever...you get the idea.

 

[distantdahlia]

i just want to clarify that i wasn't suggesting that you are desperate. i did not mean to imply that you WOULD settle for just anyone, i was just pointing out that if you don't make that clear to your intended date, they may misinterpret your enthusiasium.


also, if you get on to a topic that you find interesting, don't be shy about revealing your passion about it. lots of women find it sexy, as long as you are as captive an audience for her when she wants to elaborate on a subject she feels feels strongly about.

 

[kaledonia]

two snippets..

..which might help. I spoke to my neighbour, and she said she'd heard that a good place for guys to pick up women is in a gay bar..now don't go mad, gay bars are full of hetero women, and by being sure about your own sexuality enough to be in there, any women is going to see you as an interesting guy! the other is that a recent piece of research done here in the uk has found that the most effective chat up line is 'what is your favourite pizza topping'? apparently every other opening line is misinterpreted, and don't ever ask about films, as men and women see things very differently, and you don't want to argue within 2 minutes of meeting someone! good luck

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

body talk

When women give you advice about what women want, and you think "I've tried that and it doesn't work", you are absolutely right. That's because what many women say is not the same as what really turns most of us on. Sure, I want to say I'm looking for a smart, funny, nice guy. But the truth is, he won't turn me on unless he is sexually assertive (along with smart). That's a subtle thing that is much less about what you say, and much, much more about body language.

We aren't always conscious of what fires our attraction, and that's why women give all this "be nice, relaxed, just enjoy her company" kind of advice. Really, it's be nice, and ALWAYS at the same time, be aware of your own body, especially your cock. You've got to at least pretend that you love your own body. This is something you can improve simply by paying attention to how you walk and stand. Do you hold your pelvis back, as if to say "don't worry, I'm perfectly harmless". That's not sexy. What is sexy? Hold the thought "she loves sex", and let it have an effect on your body. (of course, always respecting 'no'. Everybody gets rejected, and when it happens, don't make a huge deal out of it).

I hope I don't get flamed for this.

 

[BrenVarouse]

..........

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

Fuck you're sexy!

Olivia - Very interesting. Very. I had never really considered my posture in terms of sexual signals. At least, not in a real life context. In acting school I took a whole course about body language but never equated it with real life. When you say "be aware of your own body" what do you mean by this? I'd be really interested in hearing you elaborate some more on this whole line of thinking, if you wouldn't mind. Also, wouldn't this just draw attention to my body/crotch? Which, because thats probably my weakest attribute (Check out my pic thread if you're curious) I would normally try to avoid drawing attention to. Isn't my best bet to focus on my strengths and try and seduce women with my "wit and charm" (HA!)? I can understand how this would be good for a guy with a great body (which is an attractant in and of itself) but for me? Again, elaboration please.

Ok, I'm going to be completely honest and direct, and risk sounding like a total idiot and slut, but this is how I think dating works 'below the belt' and at a deeper level then conscious thought:
If you want to have sex and be intimate, you have to give up your shame about sex. So you are going to have to apologize to your body in general and your cock specifically for keeping it locked up for so long. Sex isn't some kind favour women bestow on men because they are nice. We have sex because we get turned on and excited by something specifically sexual about the other person. Take it as a given that the person has to basically like you as a human being in general, but that's a given with you. You have friends, people like you. You don't need to do ANY more work on being likeable. This is only about sex now, ok?

Now every woman is different, but most of us are turned on by male desire, as long as we're sure it is uniquely for us. Look at so many of the women's stories here on lit. So often there is that moment where she describes the bulge in his jeans or whatever. We might be in conflict about our own desires (hence 'reluctant sex' fantasies) but it turns us on to know that you are hot or hard for us. Nobody wants someone else's hardon - the idea that the guy is just generally horny. We all want to feel that there is something about us in particular that is turning you on. So if you say "I like your _____", and your body language says "I'm excited", then that's a gift to a woman. If she's cold, she is either ashamed of her excitement, or she's not into you. Oh well. If she's not, might as well find out and move on to the next one. But the more you think of your desire for her as a flattering tribute to her, the more proud you will be to bestow that gift.

And then, want it to be acknowledged. Don't keep telling a girl you think she's pretty, beautiful etc if she isn't giving you anything back. She might look away for a moment, but if she doesn't peek back at you out of the corner of her eye and smile, or blush and stay close, then she's either too shy or not interested. Pull back, be more aloof if she isn't giving you anything to go on.

Nobody has a perfect body. You don't need a perfect body. Any woman who doesn't respond, well, too fucking bad for her. Some men are beautiful and not very sexy. I looked at your picture, and you are PLENTY sexy. You don't need more then what you've got. Work it. You've got to get into everything about you that is sexy, and let yourself know it. I bet that what you do is undercut your attractiveness with your insecurity. You are going to have to give that up. The thing about being insecure is that it is just a way to avoid disappointment. You don't let yourself really show your sexual desire, as if that will protect you from really feeling rejected.

I didn't look at your picture thread. I don't need to see you naked to know. If you LOVE your cock, then someone else will. Give it a secret name and promise to stick up for him anywhere and everywhere that he sticks up for you. Feminism is about women claiming their power and their rights, and fighting oppression. Sexual desire is not inherently oppressive. Sexual energy is vitality. An empowered woman can decide what she wants. You aren't imposing anything on her by wanting her. Some women will be angy or offended by your desire, and that is because of other experiences in their lives which are sad or cruel or unfortunate, but not in your control. Don't take it on. you can respect people's feelings without trashing your own. You can be compassionate that some women are afraid of men, but you don't have to make up for men who are intrusive by putting your dick in jail.

Ok, enough for now. Walk around like you're ever so slighly fucking the whole world. That's what I mean about body language. Think of the thrust of your pelvis. Don't tuck your cock between your legs. Don't forget about him.

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

if I tell you you have a beautiful cock, will you hold it against me?

I said I didn't need to see a picture of your cock to know you are attractive, but then I did go to your pic thread and take a look (because it was there). You have a great cock, and your erection looks ... very intense. Hold this idea in your head "I'm lucky I have such a great cock". It's a mantra. (I think you already secretly know you have a great cock).
Great eyes, great arms, masculine face, kind and strong - yup, a package.

The part that matters most of all to me is that you feel pride in being a sexual man, and that you care about your own desire. that doesn't contradict having some shyness. Pride and shyness can coexist, and that's actually a sexy combination.

 

[distantdahlia]

if you weren't so serious, i'd be laughing.....

this almost seems like a joke. i looked at your pictures. my eyes almost fell out of my head. first of all...you are a very handsome guy. you've got those intense dark eyes that girls want to drown in. a nice strong jaw. an adorable smile, the rosy cheeks. as for the naked pictures....i think that for the benefit of yourself and any woman that has the lucky oppurtunity to be involved with you sexually-you need to let go of your insecurity. you're solid and strong, and you should be very proud of that cock-it is fabulous, AND you have the nerve to have a cute ass as well! look, i've got no reason to lie, and neither does anyone else here.

i have an idea....how about if you gave yourself a time frame (say a week or two) and just talked with some girls, with no intention of asking them out? maybe if you removed that pressure from your interactions with them, and just concentrated on the surface chatter it might make you more comfortable? more laid back. pick a topic that interests you but leaves lots of room for interaction....maybe travel? you've mentioned your trip to europe....that would be something interesting as well as light, and everyone has done some traveling at some point, and it's usually associated with fun, happy memories people like to share. concentrate on your body language. exude some confidence and maybe a little sex appeal: relax your facial muscles, smile. make lots of direct eye contact and from time to time mirror her actions....if she leans in, you lean in as well. let your gaze linger on her lips a few times. it's a subtle sexual cue, not as forward as staring at her breasts-sexy, but non-threatening.

if you find yourself getting nervous...remember this: you're not alone. she is a little nervous too. no one is exempt from the desire to be accepted and well liked.

 

[kaledonia]

Straight women in gay bars..

..are within their comfort zone, usually more relaxed at being out of the 'cattle market' which so many bars/clubs have become, and feel safe in the knowledge that they have the prtection of their gay friends. And I don't think women go out specifically to meet sexual parners, in the way I believe many men do. You'll recognise the ones that do, and be able to avoid them!

 

[M's girl]

M's Girl: While I do love grand romantic gestures (I gave a woman a necklace and told her I was in love with her once on the top of the Eiffel Tower at sunset), I think we may be dealing with different cultural norms here. I could be wrong (and correct me if I am ladies) but doing all that to go on a first date with someone you've only spoken to for about 15 minutes doesn't scream "romantic" it screams a) "desperate" b) "stalker" or c) "expectations". At least in this area, thats more of a second or third date thing (I think). Plus, as a student, practical considerations limit my ability to be romantic. Something like you suggested would probably eat up about half of my coffee budget for the whole semester. Case-in-point; the girl who has come to be known as "Istanbul Girl"- she was out of town and one of her favourite speakers was going to speak at our University (Stephen Lewis, for those of you who may know who he is) and he had just released a new book. Her birthday was also going to be the next wednesday, when I would see her next. I had planned to buy the book, go to the presentation and have him sign the book to her and then give the book to her for her birthday. But after I added up the cost of it all, it was just unfeasable if I was also going to pay my credit card bills. Pragmatism beat out romanticism, unfortuneatley.

What it sounds like you're really saying, is I need to move to the Netherlands where the woman make their intentions more clear. Sounds good to me. Besides, European girls are so damn sexy! I mean, topless beaches... come on!

I understand. And it's not like everyone does this on first dates here in NL, not at all! Still, there may be the cultural difference like you mentioned. I guess we are known for being more straight forward. Sometimes it's a good thing and sometimes it's not appreciated. Maybe it's my age too. I've learned to go for what I want and found out that it usually works. Thát, together with the notion that my effort at least will be appreciated if not validated the way I expected is why I would do this, even on a first date, if I really wanted to be romantically involved with someone.

In the end, reading how your date went, it's a good thing I guess you did not take my advice. But hey, all I'm saying is: sometimes you have to take a chance and go for it!

I will be following your thread but having seen your pics I'm not sure why you would be insecure and reading what you have to say I would say you would be quite the catch for one lucky girl one day ;-)

 

[BrenVarouse]

..........

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

I've been trying to be more aware of the way I stand and move, as well as observing the body language of the people around me. My self examination has revealed a few interesting things. Firstly, I tend to stand just as you predicted, with my pelvis drawn in and my head pushed forward. I'm too damn cerebral for my own good. I've tried correcting this by standing tall and ever so slightly fucking the world, as you suggested. Oh, and I won't hold it against you... unless you ask

I'm glad you're testing this out for yourself. You have an acting background, so that will help you here, because you're going to have to experiment a bit to find this and make it your own. Watch for these movement qualities in film and television, and then literally experiment with it. If we were face to face, I could watch you and give you direct feedback on where you erase yourself, but it sounds like you're figuring it out anyway. You know you're too stuck in your head, and that's the main thing. Every few minutes in conversation with a woman, look away for a moment and breathe. Feel your body. Feel the strength and solidness of your body, and shift your pelvis just a bit, to feel that thrust. It's very subtle.

And keep letting me know how this is going!

...and I'll add, I do the same kinds of things - enjoy my interactions more and more over time by letting myself enjoy my body's responsiveness and expressiveness. Some women are just stunning natural beauties. But if you look at the rest of us, and see what makes the difference between more and less attractive, it is often this - the way we move, animated by desire or dead to ourselves.

 

[distantdahlia]

the best description of confidence i've heard is: "being unafraid of failure or success..."
i think it is important to adopt the "nothing to lose" attitude, that no matter what the outcome of an encounter, you can handle it, and take it all in stride.

if you have an oppurtunity, maybe you could go to a bar and watch the guys who are with a woman or seem to be trying to hook up with a woman....see if you can learn anything from their body language?

i hear what you are saying about appearing arrogant, but in my experience arrogance seems to be conveyed through a lack of respect for personal space (ie:being too physically aggressive too soon) or through verbal communication. (ie:a person who seems to be selling themselves like a product of some sort) i've never labled someone as arrogant based on their body language alone.

i've always been pretty shy around new people, and as a result used to make poor first impressions on people. after a few years of that, i did some reading on the subject, and the things most often mentioned about appearing self confident were: don't slouch-hold your head up at all times, and keep your shoulders wide in order to keep your chest up (not actually pushed out). to slow down (gesture slowly, speak slowly, blink slowly) to appear relaxed and in control. speak in a slightly lower tone with a smile in your voice to appear friendly and a bit sexy. and eye contact (not an intense aggressive hard stare-which can be misinterpreted for aggression, but a soft gentle gaze). as an aside to the eye contact thing, they say that if you gaze in a woman's eyes and her pupils dilate slightly that is a sure unconscious sign of interest....if they seem to constrict or shrink you may be making her uncomfortable.

have you ever considered bringing a wing man/woman along to help you out? it works really well for some people....i read an article recently that a lot of guys now bring a woman friend along with them to introduce them to girls...i don't know anyone who has actually done it, but as a woman if i was to be approached by another woman who said that her guy friend was interested in meeting me, i would go for it....just a thought....

i hope you find these suggestions/hints helpful....

 

[BrenVarouse]

..........

 

[Hisbabydoll26]

Wow I feel like I'm coming in late to the party. It sounds like you have gained some confidence and at least with that one date branched out a little. Part of being successful with something is being aware and making goals. I think you have that down as well.

I have to admit I didn't read every word of every post as my attention span is low at the moment. One thing I did think of....this coming from a very shy girl (okay not always shy here but in real life) is did you ever consider that some women ( I said some not all) would be worried about a date thing in terms of their safety? I'm not sure if anyone brought this up. Now....you didn't look really threatening to me, and your age 24 seems a lil old (not a bad thing) for college so I think that might play into it as well. I just know that when I was in school, and just as a general rule I am very cautious around men. Not because I wouldn't be interested but from making sure I am always in a situation where I am safe. Maybe that's a U.S. thing I don't know. I guess what I'm saying is I have to have my guard up just in case.

I am often told I am young (26) but that is because I work with an older group. It drives me nuts...at the same time I can see that when I am around other people....say a 19 year old that I find them immature. Have you had this as an issue at all? What about meeting someone in a library..or a bookstore......honestly....I think it's better than a bar.

As for worrying about taking over in the conversation arena one thing that I found about my hubby that is rare..is that he always....asks about me. Now that sounds very simple......but really....I had never had anyone do that. He always asks about my day, my interests, my dreams etc. In turn he has taught me to do the same with him and others. If you are asking about her, tell me what you think about (fill in the blank) at least you know you have gotten to know more about her and can in turn interject your opinion as well. This type of question also allows for more conversation as opposed to yes or no types of answers. It might also help a woman that is less likely to think to share about herself...or will only give you information about things she wants to talk about. If you direct the conversation in this way..you get more of what you want. Sometimes you might not feel that spark the first time because you weren't able to discuss the right things. For example I love classic cars but wouldn't ever really say on a date hey I love to go to car shows. Making sure you are talking about things, and asking about things that you find of interest can really help you to be sure that you didn't miss something good...simply because you forgot to ask the "right" question about something.

 

[distantdahlia]

can i just say that i think that you are the most detail oriented person i have ever encountered? having a real honest to goodness conversation with you must be extremely engrossing to say the least. it seems that you may be a little shy at first, but once someone gets to know you, it must be quite intense...that is a good quality, you should use it to your advantage....

ok...on to your questions. you wanted to know how long was too long to wait to call someone right? there is no easy answer to that one...sort of depends on the girl. this specific girl you mentioned, it seemed like you guys were sort of friendly at the time, and she gave you her number and then you never called. if i had to guess, i would say that calling her now would not lead to a good response...unless you were to make up some story about why you didn't call her back when you asked for her number. if someone asked me for my number a few months ago, and then never called....i would be insulted. if he were to call now, i would lean towards not taking his call at all to be honest...but if he persisted, showed genuine interest, apologized and offered some sort of explanation (that didn't include another girl) i might think about it, if i was into him that is. so-to sum it up-you could take a chance and call her, you've got nothing to lose, but that situation may be a long shot.

your second question, the one about the stripper? i really don't know what to tell you about that. you could go and be honest with her, tell her that you heard she was working there and wanted to get in touch with her....or you could go and act pleasently surprised to run in to her. that's a complicated scenerio....it depends on how she feels about the guys in strip clubs. some strippers think that they are sleazy and just see them as ATM machines. she may not want to date someone who would hang out there. or- she may be creeped out by the thought of you coming there to see her get naked and shake her ass....on the flip side it might be a huge turn on for her. another situation where it depends on the girl's personality. maybe you could go there and give one of the other girls a note to give her or something? explain that you didn't want to put her in a potentially awkward situation-leave her your email or your number, let her decide if she wants to get in touch?

you also asked about the "wing woman" scenario. i mentioned it because i thought it might make you more comfortable in certain situations. someone there to "have your back" so to speak. also from a girl's point of view it is an original way to be introduced to someone. it would sort of set you apart from other guys that might try to talk to her on a particular night. and yes, you are right....if you have a girl-friend who is willing to put her neck out to speak up for you and make an introduction it lends positive credit to your character. as far as it making you appear less confident....once you start interacting with this girl, you begin making your own impression.....i was just thinking that it might take some of the initial pressure off you, because if the girl wanted to say no....she could without feeling any sense of guilt....and if she was saying yes it would be because she was interested, not because she was put on the spot by being asked directly by you. does that make any sense?

alright, so those are my contributions of the day....by the way, if any of this really works...i'm sending you a bill....(that was a joke)

if you want to do the chat thing, i'd be willing to help you out, but you know as well as i do, that it's not nearly the same thing. still, if you really think it would help you with the conversation aspect of it, sure-why not?