Historical persons challenge -- the discussion

[AlwaysHungry]

My first guess is that The Maid of Orleans is by AH. Three reasons: Die Jungfrau von Orleans is a play by Schiller, and AH has previously translated Schiller. He has stated he submitted a translation, and the wording of the poem makes use of the anachronisms "thee," "thyself," "thou," etc. which AH has used before.

But, you know, its just a guess.

You, Butters and GM have fingered me on this, so I will say mea culpa. "Thee" and "thou" are the familiar form, which has died out in English but it still alive and well in German, Spanish and probably other languages. I'm not intentionally going for an old-timey sound -- it just seems right to me to echo the grammatical structure of German, which has shared roots with English. I may be sort of nostalgic for the days when English had more depth of grammar (we seem to also be losing the subjunctive mood, which is a terrible loss.)

 

[todski28]

You and GM have both fingered me on this, so I will say mea culpa. "Thee" and "thou" are the familiar form, which has died out in English but it still alive and well in German, Spanish and probably other languages. I'm not intentionally going for an old-timey sound -- it just seems right to me to echo the grammatical structure of German, which has shared roots with English. I may be sort of nostalgic for the days when English had more depth of grammar (we seem to also be losing the subjunctive mood, which is a terrible loss.)

Ok I googled subjunctive mood and it nearly melted what is left of my brain. intetesting but I didnt understand the examples very well.

 

[oggbashan]

You, Butters and GM have both fingered me on this, so I will say mea culpa. "Thee" and "thou" are the familiar form, which has died out in English but it still alive and well in German, Spanish and probably other languages. I'm not intentionally going for an old-timey sound -- it just seems right to me to echo the grammatical structure of German, which has shared roots with English. I may be sort of nostalgic for the days when English had more depth of grammar (we seem to also be losing the subjunctive mood, which is a terrible loss.)

It reminded me of the Fitzgerald translation of Omar Khayyam's Rubaiyat (5th version):

A Book of Verses underneath the Bough,
A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread--and Thou
Beside me singing in the Wilderness--
Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!

It is not considered an accurate translation but is well known in Fitzgerald's version, usually called FitzOmar because Fitzgerald added his own quartains not in Omar's original.

 

[oggbashan]

Ok I googled subjunctive mood and it nearly melted what is left of my brain. intetesting but I didnt understand the examples very well.

Judy Garland: "I wish I were in love again" is subjunctive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv2HQCkACyA

 

[AlwaysHungry]

Ok I googled subjunctive mood and it nearly melted what is left of my brain. intetesting but I didnt understand the examples very well.

It is used for expressions of a speculative or hypothetical nature, which could include a wish for something to be true that is not, as in Oggbashan's example. Other examples:

"Had we not invaded Iraq, the world would be less of a mess today."
"If you were to learn to play the bassoon, you could impress more of the ladies."

The Germans also have a special kind of subjunctive for indirect quotes, which makes sense to me, because an indirect quote is less certain of accuracy than a direct quote.

 

[AlwaysHungry]

Radium Girls (#11)

do i think you need the last line 'Oh, those radium girls.'? newp.

That last line strikes me also as a little off. It lessens the impact of the poem for me.

If the human contribution to CO2 in the atmosphere turns out to be a non-trivial factor in climate change, and if climate change turns out to be the apocalyptic threat that some people claim it to be, then the Curies and Lise Meitner may someday be hailed as the saviors of humanity.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Radium Girls (#11)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undark

although i knew the story of the radium girls, somehow the phrase 'Undark clock' was entirely new to me and leapt off the screen hitting my imagination square on. what a great word -undark! so, thankyou whoever wrote this one, you taught me something new as well as filling my mind with striking images:
.....

do i think you need the last line 'Oh, those radium girls.'? newp.

That last line strikes me also as a little off. It lessens the impact of the poem for me.....

I agree. I don't think it was necessary. I also thought "radioactive" was too descriptive, given all the other compelling images suggesting the same. Nonetheless, some substituted adjective was needed to extend the line. All in all, however, it was a very original poem. I really liked reading it several times.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Springtime in the Ark

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=71434392&postcount=4

This poem was both thought provoking and made me smile.

"and Noah places buckets
in strategic spots like ashtrays
on a cruise..."

suggests something more is coming than a mere re-telling of an important Old Testament story about Yahwhew's wrath, and when "Mrs." Noah blushes at the lustful look her husband is giving her, I suspect a few eyebrows of old time religion scholars would have been raised with that line, which I thought was great seguay.

It may be about re-populating the earth, but it's more than that. "Hope springs eternal" as the poem ends: romance, parenthood, perseverance, peace (as represented by a dove). I thought the last line was a great climax to the poem, given all the texture of many things we hold dear preceding it.

 

[todski28]

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=71434392&postcount=4

This poem was both thought provoking and made me smile.

"and Noah places buckets
in strategic spots like ashtrays
on a cruise..."

suggests something more is coming than a mere re-telling of an important Old Testament story about Yahwhew's wrath, and when "Mrs." Noah blushes at the lustful look her husband is giving her, I suspect a few eyebrows of old time religion scholars would have been raised with that line, which I thought was great seguay.

It may be about re-populating the earth, but it's more than that. "Hope springs eternal" as the poem ends: romance, parenthood, perseverance, peace (as represented by a dove). I thought the last line was a great climax to the poem, given all the texture of many things we hold dear preceding it.

I agree with all said and would like to add the entire piece resonates an undercurrent of soft eroticism highlighted by the third line, however it to me is initially a subconcious realization its only on extra reads that it made me realize i was being seduced

"No plum blossom or pussy willow,"

This is well crafted and such a subtle line but the colour of plum, and simply the word pussy are enough to set up that flirtation with the erotic.

I think the look from noah isnt what causes the blush, more so mrs noahs own response to her own sexuality.

To me the final lines should stand but most of that last stanza is already implied so a bit redundant. It is more a telling of what we were already shown. Still my fav piece

I think it may be a guiltypleasures piece formerly (tristess2)

 

[todski28]

Sen no rikyu

I think belongs to Ellen Moore

The poem to ee cummings reads so much like Tzara that i cant even think to pin it on anyother.

 

[Angeline]

These are poems that really got me and made me read multiple times

I think Unkulunkulu belongs to GM and I may have seen an earlier iteration of it...or not.

The Librarian could be GM, possibly Minervous

I Springtime on The Ark. Maybe EllenMore or Guilty Pleasure

Blues for Number 25 is great and really (still) sounds like Tzara to me.

I really like the American Sonnet for Mother Theresa though I think the last line of the couplet could be stronger. Dunno who wrote it.

Radium Girls is such solid writing that fuses fact and poetry without getting overbearing; the lines have a nice fluid quality. I did know who wrote it, well for a while. Also it reminded me of this poem.

Sen no Rikyū is excellent. No clue who owns it.

P.K. Page is lovely writing. Could be Guilty Pleasures as it has the delicate word choices I sometimes see in her writing. It's really lively, too, lots of language to trigger the senses.

on a wheel and a prayer is great and I know who it is. It was confirmed so I will hush up lol

When Herc Battled That Jerk is Magnetron. His puns are stellar. As soon as I saw how he used "mything" I knew!

estlin is Tzara. It just is.



Great writing overall.

 

[butters]

i'm leaning towards ellen for p.k.page

 

[butters]

i love the teeth Prometheus displays, the reds and grease and heat

and i really like the ark, and esterlin, and quite a few others to boot. i have one particular favourite, but choosing the second is proving hard. the one i like best i see nowhere i could offer anything to improve it.

 

[Equinoxe]

I may eventually have a non-tangential comment, but not so far it seems...

You, Butters and GM have fingered me on this, so I will say mea culpa. "Thee" and "thou" are the familiar form, which has died out in English but it still alive and well in German, Spanish and probably other languages. I'm not intentionally going for an old-timey sound -- it just seems right to me to echo the grammatical structure of German, which has shared roots with English. I may be sort of nostalgic for the days when English had more depth of grammar (we seem to also be losing the subjunctive mood, which is a terrible loss.)

It's technically known as the T-V distinction (after Latin tu and vos) and it is indeed used in a lot of languages, including most European languages except English, even though it seems to be dying out in many of them (usually in the opposite direction of English—English lost T, most seem to be losing V). In modern use the distinction is essentially familiar versus formal, but in origins it's about distinctions of social standing and power: T forms were used for inferiors and between low standing individuals and V forms were used for superiors. Incidentally, V forms are often grammatically plural in origin, rather like the 'Royal We'.

Historically, calling someone thou when they felt they deserved to be called you was known to occasion violence, so whether it's a loss to the English language, it may not be such a loss to English speakers.

These days, thou does just seem like archaising, though (intentionally or not).

 

[AlwaysHungry]

A reminder from your OCD department​

Voting will close in about 36 hours, in preparation for the Halloween challenge. Please send me those PMs -- thanks in advance for your attention.

 

[AlwaysHungry]

There is a new entry, #23, by one of the poets that is already on the list. If anyone wants to change his or her vote in light of this last-minute contender, PM me and I will accomodate you.

 

[AlwaysHungry]

My first guess is that The Maid of Orleans is by AH. Three reasons: Die Jungfrau von Orleans is a play by Schiller, and AH has previously translated Schiller. He has stated he submitted a translation, and the wording of the poem makes use of the anachronisms "thee," "thyself," "thou," etc. which AH has used before.

I thought I would provide a literal translation of this poem, so that people can see what sorts of compromises I had to make with the meaning in order to shoehorn the thing into rhyme and meter. In this particular case, the compromises were not too outrageous:

To scorn the noble image of humanity,
Mockery rolled thee in the deepest dust.
Satire makes war eternally on the beautiful,
It doesn't believe in God nor angel.
It wants to rob the heart of its treasures,
Battles folly and injures faith.

Yet, like thyself of child-like stock,
Herself a pious shepherdess like thou,
Poetry extends to thee her godly rights,
and soars with thee to the eternal stars.
She has surrounded thee with a glory,
The heart created thee, thou willst live immortal.

The world, it loves to blacken the radiant
and pull the sublime into the dust.
Yet fear not! There are still beautiful hearts
that glow for the high, the noble.
Let Momus entertain the noisy marketplace,
A noble mind loves more noble forms.

 

[pelegrino]

There is a new entry, #23, by one of the poets that is already on the list. If anyone wants to change his or her vote in light of this last-minute contender, PM me and I will accomodate you.

just quoting someone else on elves

 

[butters]

List of authors who submitted poems for this challenge​

AlwaysHungry
Ashesh9
Butters
EllenMore
greenmountaineer
GuiltyPleasure
HarryHill
Magnetron
Minervous
Pelegrino
Piscator
Seanathon
Tzara

i know i'm not posting as much as i'd like, but i really wish minervous, seanathon, and ellen moore would post more of their poetry here - they produce some good reading material, plus it'd be easier to guess who wrote which piece in this challenge

 

[AlwaysHungry]

The results

The results

Tied for first place:
Springtime on the Ark -- GuiltyPleasure
P.K. Page -- Seanathon

Tied for second place:
The Maid of Orleans -- Friedrich Schiller/Always Hungry
Radium Girls -- Seanathon

Tied for third place:
The Librarian -- greenmountaineer
Hyperion -- GuiltyPleasure
Blues for Number 25 -- AlwaysHungry
Julius Turing Mourns his Son -- GuiltyPleasure
The Paracosm of Ellis Bell -- Minervous
Unkulunkulu -- greenmountaineer
estlin -- Tzara​

Outing the authors:

That From the Earl's Point of View -- Pelegrino
The Librarian -- greenmountaineer
Hyperion -- GuiltyPleasure
Springtime on the Ark -- GuiltyPleasure
Blues for Number 25 -- AlwaysHungry
EXCERPTS FROM "THE FANTASTIC STORY OF SAINT SERGIUS & SAINT BACCHUS" -- Pelegrino
Julius Turing Mourns his Son -- GuiltyPleasure
American Sonnet for Mother Theresa -- greenmountaineer
The Paracosm of Ellis Bell -- Minervous
The Maid of Orleans -- Friedrich Schiller/Always Hungry
Radium Girls -- Seanathon
Sen no Rikyū -- EllenMore
P.K. Page -- Seanathon
On a Wheel and a Prayer -- Butters
Prometheus -- HarryHill
Triptych for Laeana -- Pelegrino
When Herc Battled that Jerk -- Magnetron
Shakespeare's Monkey -- Piscator
Final Insight -- Magnetron
Unkulunkulu -- Green Mountaineer
Untitled -- Ashesh9
estlin -- Tzara
The one book -- Magnetron

 

[Magnetron]

Well deserved winners.

 

[Angeline]

Congrats to the winners and all participants. Lots of wonderful reading in this thread. Special shout out to AH for putting it all together.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Congrats to the winners and all participants. Lots of wonderful reading in this thread. Special shout out to AH for putting it all together.

Seconded

 

[butters]

well done, poeteers!

my votes went to P.K.Page first, and Unkulunkulu second, though springtime on the ark, and estlin made choosing very hard indeed!

gm, i'm really interested in hearing the story behind your piece

seanathon, not sure if your subject was as influential as maybe some other written about, but i absolutely adore your poem. it feeds me, and there's not one word i'd change.

 

[AlwaysHungry]

Blues for Number 25 (#5)
i appreciate the control shown in this piece, how form is used as a frame not a prison. it also leaves me curious about the subject-matter, so i hope the author will elaborate when the challenge is done.

It's riddled with clues. William McKinley was the 25th president. He kept in place the brilliant policies of Lincoln (the Emancipator) and like Lincoln, took a bullet for his trouble. The assassination of McKinley ushered in an era of bad presidents.

McKinley was an advocate of the Pan-American Railway, which would have connected the US with every nation of south and central American by rail ("an iron embrace"). It was part of the excitement for infrastructure building around the US Centennial celebrations in Philadelphia 1876. General Joshua T. Owen proposed an alliance of the US and Russia for "girdling the globe with a tramway of iron", which inspired the "lovely girdle." After McKinley's assassination, the plan was abandoned.

The reference to the mountain is, of course, Mt. McKinley, which was recently re-named Denali.

I called the poem a "blues" because of the bitter-sweet quality. The man's place in history is assured, even if no one knows or cares. I do, of course.