How would you feel if your partner confessed that they had raped someone?

[Curious_in_Cali]

Honestly? I've been the splatter. We're all the splatter sometimes. If you're actually paying attention, you decide whether there's a valid point being made and you hold your horses or organize within your demographic.

Then doesn't it make more sense to ignore gender and allow all victims to join the much more robust 210,000 victims of sexual abuse demographic?

 

[KoPilot]

I'm sorry Stella, I just don't understand what you are trying to say. It's all milk. It's the same mess. The same rag cleans it. The order that you wipe it up doesn't change the fact that it is not clean until it is ALL clean... Right?

Or are you really suggesting that we ask male victims to be the patient splatter because it seems addressig the majority is a more "efficient" way to handle it? What if you were the man, you were the splatter?

To me it makes sense to engage any victim to speak. Support their voices. Bring more awareness to the range of the problem. Really listen. Make speaking up safer. Helping the smaller speak up is kind of the big rag anyways isn't it? The mess needs more rags and more hands, which HAS to include all of our men, not exclude them... Right?

Unfortunately, and however maddeningly frustrating it is, there are steps that need to be taken. You can't walk with both your feet moving out from under you at the same time.

Activists in the world of gender and sexuality know this. And oh, do we gnash our teeth about it, but we know it. Men have an extremely hard time with the idea that a victory for women oftentimes means a victory for them too.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Then doesn't it make more sense to ignore gender and allow all victims to join the much more robust 210,000 victim of sexual abuse demographic?

Like i said, if 'men who have been raped' can speak up for themselves-- to the men who have raped them-- as women have begun to do? I'm right there with them. If 'men who have been raped by women' can speak up for themselves-- to the subset of women who rape-- I will be a staunch and loyal ally. I am. I bring up both of these groups when I talk to... men. I remind men that they too get raped, and it's a damn good reason to take rape more seriously overall.

Do you know how hard it has been just to bring the problem to the attention of an unwilling culture? Women had to do that by ourselves. Not too many men have jumped on the feminist bandwagon simply for the sake of their fellow but non-penised human beings. Its not that I don't want to jump on their bandwagon, but I'm doing all I can to steer this team of horses just yet.

 

[Netzach]

Then doesn't it make more sense to ignore gender and allow all victims to join the much more robust 210,000 victim of sexual abuse demographic?

No, it really doesn't. Any more than it makes sense to consolidate the American Lung Association and the CCFA.

 

[Marquis]

Actually, the more I read in this thread, the more I think further parsing of rape would be the most effective strategy for prevention.

Fundamentally I think that a father molesting his 13 year old daughter, a gang stalking, raping and brutalizing an unafilliated victim, a serial killer kidnapping, raping and mutilating the corpse of a hooker and a drunken willful ignorance to a lack of consent are all very different crimes that are going to have very different solutions.

We hear often recently, "instead of telling women not to get raped or how not to get raped, why are t we telling men not to rape?" I think there is a really ironic insightful obese to that statement because it makes the truthful assumption that a lot of tapes are committed by very ordinary guys that probably just need to be clued in and reminded that what they're doing is wrong. It's probably really shocking and upsetting to hear that, but it's true.

 

[Marquis]

Sorry for the weird typos, I'm on an iPhone.

 

[Dyslexicea]

OK, I have to disagree with you here.

Stag, thank you.

Stag's reply to one of my posts.

I dont disagree with your basic point, but there is this;

I didn't.

This was my response to Stag.
------------------
I did read your post about being raped and I do agree in a very small percentage of cases it is, especially for a man, almost impossible to admit even to oneself they've been raped. Not only were you raped but you were also mind fucked between the two you're lucky to not have committed suicide.

Still I do believe in the vast majority of rapes the rapist knows they committed rape.
--------------------

I did not say all Stag's posts were a problem. I don't object to his comment about his experience of being raped nor how demeaning it was. I sympathize with his depression because I know how debilitating it can be and I know those feelings of not wanting life to continue.

Maybe I just didn't make my point the way I should have.

It upset me when he continued to harp about women's fear of men. Everyone here knew how Stella meant her post. Which was not that women fear men all the time in every situation. We do at times, depending on the situation, fear men, at least some men and that fear can allow a man to have sex with us against our will.

My objection is, Stage wouldn't drop the FEAR point. Nor was I happy at all about turning it around to fearing all men or some man in some public place all the time, places where we wouldn't fear any man. It really serves no point.

I do have one male friend who was brutally raped by other men and I assure you I feel just as much pain for him as I do any of my women friends who have been raped, which happens to us at a far higher rate than white women even if we happen to be white. I didn't read one comment about men fearing being sexually assaulted, other than Stag, which may have actually added something. The truth is men don't really have to be concerned with being sexually assaulted and I dare say most never have that fear, we do, we have to live with that.

Nor did I object to some of the men's comments or questions about some of the gray areas. Like if he doesn't know she's afraid of him and she doesn't say no how can it be rape but in most cases the rapist uses fear of violence to keep his victim silent. Alcohol is also such an area but if she's too drunk to say yes than it is a no and if the man continues it is rape and in most cases he knows she didn't consent.

My comment by the way was " Yes I want equality. I also want all of us to be safe, I'd even settle for only 6,300 women being raped." The truth is if during my lifetime, violence, not just rape, could be cut in half I'd be happy. If we want to have a thread about violence against men, I'd follow it but if I made any comments it wouldn't be to question their fear nor their right to have those fears, even if I felt their fears were unjustified.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Actually, the more I read in this thread, the more I think further parsing of rape would be the most effective strategy for prevention.

Fundamentally I think that a father molesting his 13 year old daughter, a gang stalking, raping and brutalizing an unafilliated victim, a serial killer kidnapping, raping and mutilating the corpse of a hooker and a drunken willful ignorance to a lack of consent are all very different crimes that are going to have very different solutions.

"Ignorance is no excuse" in pretty much every aspect of the law. Why should this ignorance get a pass?

We hear often recently, "instead of telling women not to get raped or how not to get raped, why are t we telling men not to rape?" I think there is a really ironic insightful obese to that statement because it makes the truthful assumption that a lot of tapes are committed by very ordinary guys that probably just need to be clued in and reminded that what they're doing is wrong. It's probably really shocking and upsetting to hear that, but it's true.

Yes-- almost every man, and many women as well, who stumbles across this concept is shocked and upset by it. They never knew! They never had to know!

That's why we coined the word "rape culture."

 

[BrightlyGo]

No, it really doesn't. Any more than it makes sense to consolidate the American Lung Association and the CCFA.

Which of those is exclusive by gender?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Which of those is exclusive by gender?

Actually, it's not 'gender,' as far as the victims are concerned.
Although there is a gigantic amount of gender as far as the overwhelming majority of perpetrators are concerned.

People with female-appearing bodies get raped by most often by male-bodied men, who don't care whether that person is actually female-gendered or not. Male-identified women get raped. Transvestites get raped. Boys with pretty faces get raped.

And victims who look female but turn out to have trans genitals often get brutally beaten/killed.
Especially if they are not white, just to bring it all back around...

 

[Primalex]

Actually, it's not 'gender,' as far as the victims are concerned.
Although there is a gigantic amount of gender as far as the overwhelming majority of perpetrators are concerned.

People with female-appearing bodies get raped by most often by male-bodied men, who don't care whether that person is actually female-gendered or not. Male-identified women get raped. Transvestites get raped. Boys with pretty faces get raped.

And victims who look female but turn out to have trans genitals often get brutally beaten/killed.
Especially if they are not white, just to bring it all back around...

Appeal to emotion fallacy.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Actually, it's not 'gender,'

Sorry, assigned sex, then.

Appeal to emotion fallacy.

Not see'n it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I just can't believe that I am so utterly irrelevant.

It sucks to figure this out. But it won't kill you. And you probably are very relevant elsewhere, right?

 

[Netzach]

Which of those is exclusive by gender?

I know the analogy thing is absolutely killing you here, but come on. If I'm coughing up a lung I'm not going to be pissed off that the person shitting out her guts isn't paying attention to MY ISSUE. Both sufferings are valid. "Sick" is not the big-tent solution.

 

[Marquis]

If there's one thing we all seem to agree on, it's that men love to rape.

What can be done to curtail this overwhelming desire?

 

[Marquis]

Four Hail Mary's before breakfast?

Perhaps we should require women to wear some sort of covering garment to conceal their beauty...

 

[Stella_Omega]

If there's one thing we all seem to agree on, it's that men love to rape.

What can be done to curtail this overwhelming desire?

What we all agree on is that men think it's kind of okay to coerce and force and ignore 'no'. And they don't want to think that it's not okay, -- because that would mean we have to change shit up.

That's not the same thing as "loving to rape." It means "status quo doesn't hurt me, everything else is hard work."

What can be done? Start talking to other men, thank you, spread the word.

 

[Noor]

If there's one thing we all seem to agree on, it's that men love to rape.

What can be done to curtail this overwhelming desire?

Crotch muzzles that only women have keys to

 

[Marquis]

Crotch muzzles that only women have keys to

This is much simpler!

Headline reads:

CROTCH MUZZLES END RAPE; ALSO MOST OTHER CRIMES, AND WAR

 

[Primalex]

It sucks to figure this out. But it won't kill you. And you probably are very relevant elsewhere, right?

Ad hominem fallacy.

 

[Felonious1]

Many past or future would-be rapist don't consider themselves as such. Head soup made with arrogant entitlement and a sociopathic lack of empathy for others as the main ingredients, serves to cloud the judgement of the unknowing offender.

Those flawed internally won't ever understand, must less adhere to the median path regarding 100 percent mutually desired sexual activity. The total lack of physical resistance to one's advances, and because they, as the aggressor, wasn't told " no " ........does not serve as a " yes " by default. Either you inherently grasp the concept, or you just don't.

Alas......one's personal perceptions is responsible for their judgement calls made at the moment of truth. Yet flawed is ultimately as flawed does.

 

[Felonious1]

Taken from here....... http://www.fugitivus.net/2009/06/26/another-post-about-rape-3/


Snip -->

If women are raised being told by parents, teachers, media, peers, and all surrounding social strata that:

it is not okay to set solid and distinct boundaries and reinforce them immediately and dramatically when crossed (“mean bitch”)
it is not okay to appear distraught or emotional (“crazy bitch”)
it is not okay to make personal decisions that the adults or other peers in your life do not agree with, and it is not okay to refuse to explain those decisions to others (“stuck-up bitch”)
it is not okay to refuse to agree with somebody, over and over and over again (“angry bitch”)
it is not okay to have (or express) conflicted, fluid, or experimental feelings about yourself, your body, your sexuality, your desires, and your needs (“bitch got daddy issues”)
it is not okay to use your physical strength (if you have it) to set physical boundaries (“dyke bitch”)
it is not okay to raise your voice (“shrill bitch”)
it is not okay to completely and utterly shut down somebody who obviously likes you (“mean dyke/frigid bitch”)

If we teach women that there are only certain ways they may acceptably behave, we should not be surprised when they behave in those ways.

And we should not be surprised when they behave these ways during attempted or completed rapes.
<-- Snip

Social, parental and society in general has programmed women, and/or those of a submissive mindset, to be less aggressive, generally complacent and not fight back with vigor when faced with an aggressor. Thus their lack of resistance and not clearly standing up for their rights makes them a victim in waiting in many instances.

 

[stickygirl]

Another post laying the responsibility on the victim. There is a good reason why our culture is a patriarchy and always has been: give a man and woman a club each and the man wins ( and please don't start quoting exceptions ) Nature has shaped our culture and man has been more than happy to accept it, even trumpet it as the reason they are 'superior'. To start blaming victims for having grown up in that culture doesn't help much. For every brought-it-on-themselves victim there is a I-couldn't-help-myself-I-blame-society aggressor. Lets address the cause not the effect.

 

[Stella_Omega]

why should men listen when all that's being said is just shaming men.

maybe the reality is shameful, but feminists are going to have to learn some diplomacy, because feminism needs men.

Gosh darn it, ladies have to be nice! Because only nice ladies can talk to men!

The reality is shameful. it's shameful, dude. It's a shameful reality. If you can figure out how to sugar coat that, have at it.

And yeah, in many ways that's shameful too, that you cant reach men without getting a few on board, but you're never gonna get anyone on board if you're excluding them.

why should I take the social risk of speaking out to my peer groups, when the message you would have me give them is so one sided? What could that possibly accomplish? Sure fine, the reality is much more horrible, but you know, you can present it as gender neutral with a lot less venom, and anyone can still connect the dots about which is more common.

Give it a shot, Speak to your peer groups in gender neutral language. If it works, that would be awesome. maybe men can connect those dots when other men talk to them. If that's true, then you have the most awesomest best possible chance of being the diplomat we need.

Can you say for sure that this thread, which started about people, by a man, hasn't become populated primarily by abused women precisely because you've been excluding everyone else?

I could give you many reasons, why feminism needs men; and maybe that is a topic for another thread, but here's one right now that happened just today.

You haven't been excluded. You haven't been allowed to dictate the terms of discussion, but that's not the end of the world, is it?

As long as video games are babysitters, in game voice channels are the social equivalent of letting your kid run loose in the street. Persistent chat communities like teamspeak and mumble then, horrifyingly, are the new big brothers society.

Feminism needs men, so that when men get together, whether it's to watch foot ball or play games on the internet, there's someone in the room who is willing to speak up when your son hears phrases like "you just can't stop the rape train." And i'm probably gonna hear something to the effect of "cool it guys grandpa stag is in the channel" for weeks... but if they learn to tone it down even temporarily, that's incremental progress on a personal level.

What a brilliant idea! I am so glad you thought of it. Would you give it a shot, see how it works?

Just maybe, the next time someone uses that phrase when i'm not around, it'll be your son that speaks up to them, and that's incremental progress on a social level. When you're trying to pass laws and fighting hotel lobbyists in the coming decade to require all bars to use rape drug detection glass; these kids are going to be voting.

But if i'm marginalized and excluded, if im being intimidated into silence by the very people who need me; maybe you don't really want that change.

If women aren't nice to you they don't deserve basic human justice. Gotcha.

I'm going to make those stands anyway, alone, because I have daughters to think of.

That is a damn good reason to make a stand.

Even while you are cheating me of the allies I need most.

I am your ally in your fight. I've told you so many times, I've given you kudos and sympathy.

I have been an activist ally, too; I have taken your story elsewhere and inserted it into discussions in feminist spaces-- as a woman, I can do that. That's how it works.

 

[stickygirl]

Stag, I don't see that you're being excluded other by the assocation of your sex. I think Stella is quite right - you should go out and spread the word, as I'm sure you already do, because the sort of men that need to be enlightened sure as hell aren't going to listen to what a woman has to say. If it comes from a man though - "hmm, ok bro' you may have a point there, I can accept that coming from you without me worrying that my dick will drop off or being seen as a commi-faggot consorting with the enemy". Because it does seem like a war, punctuated by men with a penis-power problem that resort to rape to help convince themselves they are more Alpha than the next guy.

As far as this thread goes, I'm tired of seeing men get all defensive when their sex is accused of being the rapists so that the women have to step over the '3% of rapes victims are actually men' barbed wire before they can air their views.