How would you feel if your partner confessed that they had raped someone?

[Netzach]

Tone argument.

I want a cookie, and if it wasn't for my daughter I'd stop being a human being because women disagree not nicely enough with me.

 

[Netzach]

Taken from here....... http://www.fugitivus.net/2009/06/26/another-post-about-rape-3/


Snip -->

If women are raised being told by parents, teachers, media, peers, and all surrounding social strata that:

it is not okay to set solid and distinct boundaries and reinforce them immediately and dramatically when crossed (“mean bitch”)
it is not okay to appear distraught or emotional (“crazy bitch”)
it is not okay to make personal decisions that the adults or other peers in your life do not agree with, and it is not okay to refuse to explain those decisions to others (“stuck-up bitch”)
it is not okay to refuse to agree with somebody, over and over and over again (“angry bitch”)
it is not okay to have (or express) conflicted, fluid, or experimental feelings about yourself, your body, your sexuality, your desires, and your needs (“bitch got daddy issues”)
it is not okay to use your physical strength (if you have it) to set physical boundaries (“dyke bitch”)
it is not okay to raise your voice (“shrill bitch”)
it is not okay to completely and utterly shut down somebody who obviously likes you (“mean dyke/frigid bitch”)

If we teach women that there are only certain ways they may acceptably behave, we should not be surprised when they behave in those ways.

And we should not be surprised when they behave these ways during attempted or completed rapes.
<-- Snip

Social, parental and society in general has programmed women, and/or those of a submissive mindset, to be less aggressive, generally complacent and not fight back with vigor when faced with an aggressor. Thus their lack of resistance and not clearly standing up for their rights makes them a victim in waiting in many instances.

This. So this.

 

[stickygirl]

Tone argument.

I want a cookie, and if it wasn't for my daughter I'd stop being a human being because women disagree not nicely enough with me.

Ooop ^^^ does that mean that a wee bit of the rage I've felt reading this thread has leaked into my posts? For that I apologise and hope none have been personally offended, for none was intended

 

[Netzach]

Actually, the more I read in this thread, the more I think further parsing of rape would be the most effective strategy for prevention.

Fundamentally I think that a father molesting his 13 year old daughter, a gang stalking, raping and brutalizing an unafilliated victim, a serial killer kidnapping, raping and mutilating the corpse of a hooker and a drunken willful ignorance to a lack of consent are all very different crimes that are going to have very different solutions.

We hear often recently, "instead of telling women not to get raped or how not to get raped, why are t we telling men not to rape?" I think there is a really ironic insightful obese to that statement because it makes the truthful assumption that a lot of tapes are committed by very ordinary guys that probably just need to be clued in and reminded that what they're doing is wrong. It's probably really shocking and upsetting to hear that, but it's true.

The more I go back over salient points in this thread the more I like this one. But this is really really taboo in common discussions.

I think there's a lot of bad behavior in gray areas, but I'm sorry, if the person it happened to feels that they're "not sure" if they have been violated, I think there's about 83293829830982 people in line in front who KNOW they have been and nothing happens.

Got a bit of an actual live not-alarmist trafficking Native girls problem in North Dakota at the moment while you folks figure it out, and I do support whatever you decide.

Just as an example.

The men raping these women are the cowboys of the new fuel dollar, attracted by industry. A lot of them will be very normal - which fits into this thread really well. This is a conversation I think never happens but could happen a lot. A lot of the most condoned rape committed by "otherwise fine men" gets folded into sex work, and it doesn't help if sex work activists can't get past "legalization will stop all the problems!"

How many women will leave a guy if he confesses to being with an attractive young hooker in his past? How many will ask how young or get sick over it? How many guys will ostracize a buddy if he does this, versus the numbers who would ostracize a guy who admitted he stuck it in her while she was stone cold out, versus if he just saw her standing there in an alley? An upward graph could be drawn on this.

 

[Netzach]

Ooop ^^^ does that mean that a wee bit of the rage I've felt reading this thread has leaked into my posts? For that I apologise and hope none have been personally offended, for none was intended

No, I'm saying that those are things I think Stag is doing, well intentioned or not, I'm really past the point of caring why. I'm not feeling rage, I'm just not feeling agreement or backing down on this.

I appreciate your participation.

 

[Primalex]

Mothers have programmed their daughters to be less aggressive, generally complacent and not fight back with vigor when faced with an aggressor. Thus their lack of resistance and not clearly standing up for their rights makes them a victim in waiting in many instances.

Fixed it for you.

 

[stickygirl]

I don't disagree with what fugitivus has written - there is little to disagree with in her piece and she is incredibly insightful in her observations. We all nod in agreement but she does little to suggest a solution except in her final para
<The way men and women interact on a daily basis is the way they interact when rape occurs. The social dynamics we see at play between men and women are the same social dynamics that cause men to feel rape is okay, and women to feel they have no right to object. And if you accept those social interactions as normal and appropriate in your day to day life, there is absolutely no reason you should be shocked that rape occurs without screaming, without fighting, without bruising, without provocation, and without prosecution. Behavior exists on a continuum. Rape doesn’t inhabit its own little corner of the world, where everything is suddenly all different now. The behavior you accept today is the behavior that becomes rape tomorrow. >
ie the society we have at the moment passively encourages rape. The only answer is to change society - telling women how to dress/behave/speak as a means of avoiding it, is just shifting the blame - and it's not just men making cheap judgement calls on rape victims by any means. So where to start? From the top and the bottom: politicians who get lambasted because the advocate family values need to fight back harder; kids need to be taught in school that rape is wrong. 'Rape is wrong' keep it simple, but I'll leave it to the educators to work out how they package that to avoid the outrage of parents who'll object to it being on the curriculum.

 

[stickygirl]

Fixed it for you.

There is no such thing as a 'victim in waiting'

 

[Netzach]

Fixed it for you.

Absolutely, I agree that women police femininity more agressively and more tightly than men do in all the small ways that add up. And they got this in a vacuum and they benefit SO MUCH from it. Uh no.

Look, I get it. The most toxic person in my family was definitely a woman. She needed mental health intervention. And in the fifties - thank GOD she didn't get it, frankly. Like she needed to be told everything was her fault when she already believes everything is her fault and if not hers CLEARLY yours and you're killing her. She's crazy, but sometimes she's right, or was, inadvertently.

I saw the programming in action, and it's not just what mainstream feminists think it is. It isn't "oh you get a pink doll so you're being brainwashed" stuff, it's more subtle and more persistent clues about where you fit in in the scheme of things and what your worth is and isn't.

But explain to me, exactly how someone who was raised with all of this, fails to create that mirror whatsoever in her kids?

 

[stickygirl]

Absolutely, I agree that women police femininity more agressively and more tightly than men do in all the small ways that add up. And they got this in a vacuum and they benefit SO MUCH from it. Uh no.

Look, I get it. The most toxic person in my family was definitely a woman. She needed mental health intervention. And in the fifties - thank GOD she didn't get it, frankly. Like she needed to be told everything was her fault when she already believes everything is her fault and if not hers CLEARLY yours and you're killing her. She's crazy, but sometimes she's right, or was, inadvertently.

I saw the programming in action, and it's not just what mainstream feminists think it is. It isn't "oh you get a pink doll so you're being brainwashed" stuff, it's more subtle and more persistent clues about where you fit in in the scheme of things and what your worth is and isn't.

But explain to me, exactly how someone who was raised with all of this, fails to create that mirror whatsoever in her kids?

Doesn't that come back to the "Behavior exists on a continuum."? Because you have benefitted from the incremental changes in society that the suffragettes started over a hundred years ago. Today we take for granted that women can vote: if they could force that then the least we can do is keep chipping away at the inequalities that persist in society.

Also the shit-load of drugs that everyone took in the sixties: can't say that didn't change attitudes ( I don't do 'em myself btw )

 

[Netzach]

Doesn't that come back to the "Behavior exists on a continuum."? Because you have benefitted from the incremental changes in society that the suffragettes started over a hundred years ago. Today we take for granted that women can vote: if they could force that then the least we can do is keep chipping away at the inequalities that persist in society

Sort of. It's a more complicated diagram with more intersections in it, but I think that's it. And you have the X factor of people, too, individuals who are never going to conform to culture anyway perfectly let alone how they are parented.

 

[Marquis]

The more I go back over salient points in this thread the more I like this one. But this is really really taboo in common discussions.

Thank you, I think. I really feel like I have no idea what I am talking about here, which is maybe a good place to start.

The men raping these women are the cowboys of the new fuel dollar, attracted by industry. A lot of them will be very normal - which fits into this thread really well. This is a conversation I think never happens but could happen a lot. A lot of the most condoned rape committed by "otherwise fine men" gets folded into sex work, and it doesn't help if sex work activists can't get past "legalization will stop all the problems!"

How many women will leave a guy if he confesses to being with an attractive young hooker in his past? How many will ask how young or get sick over it? How many guys will ostracize a buddy if he does this, versus the numbers who would ostracize a guy who admitted he stuck it in her while she was stone cold out, versus if he just saw her standing there in an alley? An upward graph could be drawn on this.

This is an interesting point, because a lot of sex work is really rape with the violence and intimidation outsourced to the pimp.

This brings up some interesting hypotheticals though, like... let's say a woman, ok fuckit a person, is starving and you have food they need and say no i won't give it to you unless you fuck me? Is that rape?

May seem like a far fetched scenario, but I'm sure it comes up. Replace food with other necessary resources, like $ and it's hardly takes a stretch of the imagination.

What about drugs? I'm not proud to admit this, but at a certain point in my life I knew a lot of girls that would fuck for oxycontin. If you had the goods, they were ready to party.

I've classed up my act since then.

 

[Primalex]

I saw the programming in action, and it's not just what mainstream feminists think it is. It isn't "oh you get a pink doll so you're being brainwashed" stuff, it's more subtle and more persistent clues about where you fit in in the scheme of things and what your worth is and isn't.

But explain to me, exactly how someone who was raised with all of this, fails to create that mirror whatsoever in her kids?

I don't have an answer, but...maybe this is what feminists should spend their time on investigating, instead of doing the stuff they usually do. Laws can't change a society (and bashing men, even if they benefit from a weak female society, does not change a society either).

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't have an answer, but...maybe this is what feminists should spend their time on investigating, instead of doing the stuff they usually do. Laws can't change a society (and bashing men, even if they benefit from a weak female society, does not change a society either).

Good advice. You're going to get started on it right away, right? Stop bashing feminists and work instead on changing the society that has bred them?

 

[stickygirl]

"This brings up some interesting hypotheticals though, like... let's say a woman, ok fuckit a person, is starving and you have food they need and say no i won't give it to you unless you fuck me? Is that rape?

May seem like a far fetched scenario, but I'm sure it comes up. Replace food with other necessary resources, like $ and it's hardly takes a stretch of the imagination."

Why not go the extra mile and say marriage is licensed rape?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thank you, I think. I really feel like I have no idea what I am talking about here, which is maybe a good place to start.



This is an interesting point, because a lot of sex work is really rape with the violence and intimidation outsourced to the pimp.

This brings up some interesting hypotheticals though, like... let's say a woman, ok fuckit a person, is starving and you have food they need and say no i won't give it to you unless you fuck me? Is that rape?

May seem like a far fetched scenario, but I'm sure it comes up. Replace food with other necessary resources, like $ and it's hardly takes a stretch of the imagination.

What about drugs? I'm not proud to admit this, but at a certain point in my life I knew a lot of girls that would fuck for oxycontin. If you had the goods, they were ready to party.

I've classed up my act since then.

Maybe some day people will look at coerced transactions of all kinds as violent assault, who knows?

For now, I'd like to address the kind of rape that doesn't really bring the victim any benefits except maybe getting away otherwise unassailed-- not beaten or battered or murdered, the blackmail threat not made manifest. These sorts of things are on my list of what defines rape qua rape. Sex trafficking would be some other kind of trafficking if rape weren't involved.

 

[Primalex]

yap yap yap

Sorry, did you say something to me?

 

[Netzach]

I don't have an answer, but...maybe this is what feminists should spend their time on investigating, instead of doing the stuff they usually do. Laws can't change a society (and bashing men, even if they benefit from a weak female society, does not change a society either).

Do you seriously think there's no internal discourse on parenting or family histories within feminism? What exactly does feminism "usually do?" Other than bring out the butthurt in 99 percent of guys in a four mile radius?

Or start a micro loan program, or get sex workers using condoms en masse or crazy shit like that, stuff I'm more interested in personally than "wow, my mom was an asshole."

Laws don't change a society? Not alone, but show me one that changes without them.

 

[Netzach]

Thank you, I think. I really feel like I have no idea what I am talking about here, which is maybe a good place to start.



This is an interesting point, because a lot of sex work is really rape with the violence and intimidation outsourced to the pimp.

This brings up some interesting hypotheticals though, like... let's say a woman, ok fuckit a person, is starving and you have food they need and say no i won't give it to you unless you fuck me? Is that rape?

May seem like a far fetched scenario, but I'm sure it comes up. Replace food with other necessary resources, like $ and it's hardly takes a stretch of the imagination.

What about drugs? I'm not proud to admit this, but at a certain point in my life I knew a lot of girls that would fuck for oxycontin. If you had the goods, they were ready to party.

I've classed up my act since then.

All good questions. I'm actually thinking of really creepy UN-ambiguous, literally 14 year old girls dragged out of their houses shit, stuff that sounds like it was made up by alarmists, but it isn't. It's really jacked. Serious intersectionality with Indigenous issues.

 

[Netzach]

"This brings up some interesting hypotheticals though, like... let's say a woman, ok fuckit a person, is starving and you have food they need and say no i won't give it to you unless you fuck me? Is that rape?

May seem like a far fetched scenario, but I'm sure it comes up. Replace food with other necessary resources, like $ and it's hardly takes a stretch of the imagination."

Why not go the extra mile and say marriage is licensed rape?

Because it's an interesting hypothesis, but since Western marriage has changed as much as it has it's a total insult to people whose lives still reflect actual sexual indenture.

This is the kind of thing where feminism goes up it's own ass in my experience, not "wow, that was mean to men."

 

[stickygirl]

Because it's an interesting hypothesis, but since Western marriage has changed as much as it has it's a total insult to people whose lives still reflect actual sexual indenture.

This is the kind of thing where feminism goes up it's own ass in my experience, not "wow, that was mean to men."

How can holding a gun to someone's head or in this case keeping a bowl of food from a starving person unless they fuck them be an interesting hypothesis? It's an act of criminal cruelty and yes it is rape - you're denying them even the choice of yes or no. So my comment was ironic.
It's probably best I duck out of this - I'm finding it way too triggering and I can't discuss this calmly. I should go and break some plates or something. Apologies for getting ratty

 

[KoPilot]

All good questions. I'm actually thinking of really creepy UN-ambiguous, literally 14 year old girls dragged out of their houses shit, stuff that sounds like it was made up by alarmists, but it isn't. It's really jacked. Serious intersectionality with Indigenous issues.

I'm sure you've heard that the Superbowl is rife with sex trafficking-- I heard about it earlier this year and that was about it.

 

[Netzach]

How can holding a gun to someone's head or in this case keeping a bowl of food from a starving person unless they fuck them be an interesting hypothesis? It's an act of criminal cruelty and yes it is rape - you're denying them even the choice of yes or no. So my comment was ironic.
It's probably best I duck out of this - I'm finding it way too triggering and I can't discuss this calmly. I should go and break some plates or something. Apologies for getting ratty

I wasn't reading it as ironic, I was reading it as straight up marriage-as-equivalent assertion. Sorry.

 

[Marquis]

If a man wakes up with a hangover, looks over at his partner from the night before, and says to himself "why did I ever sleep with her," by the definitions in this thread he has been raped. I have been lead to believe that this is commonplace.

Super interesting. If this is rape, than I've been raped many times. Not just because I slept with a girl that I woke up to regret, but add in that she was the one who got me drunk, arranged the situation so that we would be alone at the right time, etc. etc.

I never wanted to have sex with her but somehow it ended up happening. Rape?

 

[njlauren]

Marquis you're really just confusing the issue, at least as far as law. First-degree sexual assault, which includes rape, defining rape as non consensual intercourse. The intent of these law are to protect everyone against nonconsensual sex by another. As you learned in law school, or should have, the intent of statutory rape laws are to protect children, defining children as those younger than the state's consent age, from predatory adults.



In the above case you offer to little information to make an informed judgment. Technically he/she has committed statutory rape but if that person is going to be prosecuted in another story all together. Laws aren't perfect, no law can be written to cover all possible just or unjust outcomes. It's one of the reason we have the legal system we do, no matter how the law is written, no matter if he/she is technically guilty, a prosecutor can elect not to prosecute and if he/she does a jury can always elect to acquit.

As far as living with a rapist, again I just don't have enough information from you original question. I think it would depend on the circumstance but I doubt I could stay with someone who had forcibly committed rape.

Just a note, unfortunately it isn't just used against predatory adults. Down in the bible belt, they do things like prosecute a 17 year old boy for having sex with a 15 year old girlfriend, which was not the intent of statutory rape laws (basically, it is religious douchebags punishing a teen boy for daring to have sex, punishing them using the rape law because you can't have laws against fornication). The point of statutory rape laws is children below a certain age cannot easily say no to a much older adult, so they cannot consent, it wasn't meant for two kids who are roughly peers (it is why states outside the bible belt generally have what are known as Romeo and Juliet clauses, that recognize that an 18 year old boy having sex with a 16 or 17 year old girl is not the same thing as a 30 year old, if both are still in high school).