I'm dirty, She's NOT

[warrior queen]

it's easy to sit on this side of the computer screen, and read things in your own way as to what's been written.

my own thoughts are that he's had 15 years to become bitter about what's going on in his relationship, and that writing in here is not the first step he's taken to try and resolve the issues.

i'd hazard a guess and say he's tried pretty much everything else out there, with as much luck as i had (ie. none).

sometimes, it makes no difference how much a person tries to make things better because the other person involved can't see there's a problem in the first place.
and if that happens, many of us stay for a very long time, usually for the sake of children, to try and make things work.

and when we finally do leave, there's a whole bunch of people ready to condemn us because all they see are the intervening years where everything seemed ok on the outside.

and god forbid if you leave because of a lack of intimacy, like i did!
because then, you're labelled a 'selfish, self-centred bitch'.

 

[Bandit58]

it's easy to sit on this side of the computer screen, and read things in your own way as to what's been written.

my own thoughts are that he's had 15 years to become bitter about what's going on in his relationship, and that writing in here is not the first step he's taken to try and resolve the issues.

i'd hazard a guess and say he's tried pretty much everything else out there, with as much luck as i had (ie. none).

sometimes, it makes no difference how much a person tries to make things better because the other person involved can't see there's a problem in the first place.
and if that happens, many of us stay for a very long time, usually for the sake of children, to try and make things work.

and when we finally do leave, there's a whole bunch of people ready to condemn us because all they see are the intervening years where everything seemed ok on the outside.

and god forbid if you leave because of a lack of intimacy, like i did!
because then, you're labelled a 'selfish, self-centred bitch'.

Oh yeah been there done that......sex in my marriage was just that.....stick it in, thrust away until you get off, and roll over and go to sleep I wondered what the big deal was.... He had no imagination, no idea how to show affection - the only time he'd touch me was if he was in the mood for a fuck. If I did something to upset him, the silent treatment would kick in. It got so that if he touched me in bed I would freeze up, literally. My muscles would tense and I would almost push him away. But I would let him do it, because it was easier than being treated like I didn't exist when I said no.

I was unhappy for a long time but I hid it well. I concentrated on my children. But when they were older, and one left to go to uni, I could see myself being trapped forever in this hell with someone I didn't have anything in common with any more, if we ever did. I was 19 when I married him, he was 23. It was expected by our families that we would marry. We were each other's first sexual partners and neither of us knew squat. I tried early on to get him to make love rather than just fuck, but he was always too impatient and it seemed had no interest in even trying to learn how to please me. So I stopped trying.

I was married to him for 23 years. When I did leave, even my own mother couldn't understand why I left "a good man". I have tried to explain things, but it's like she doesn't want to hear it. So I gave up.......I have a new life with a lovely man who shows me love and affection every minute of every day, who I enjoy sex with, who has shown me that there's nothing wrong with my responses and in fact I am a very sensual and sexual person.

If it's wrong it's wrong.....you can try to make it better but unless the other person truly wants to work at it, nothing you can say or do will make any difference.

 

[Bobmi357]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm dirty, She's NOT

From what I gather, you didn't have much (if any) of a part in it, and you didn't serially cheat on her, correct? That says a lot to me about you and the situation.

Very true. I did not cheat on her, although I have to admit to being sorely tempted on several occasions. I wanted to, I even once rebuffed an advance made by our college age babysitter who was drop dead gorgeous (She was the daughter of a friend and I didn't want to mess with that).

My point here is until intelsuit comes back and either rebuts people's comments, or clarifies things. We just don't know if thats the attitude he truly has or if he's lashing out in anger, using his words to blow off steam.

And if he's to be taken at face value, his comment about it being so long since he had sex with his wife that he can't even remember when it was means he probably already has grounds for the divorce.

My lawyer was the one who told me that failing to have sex is ground for divorce in most states in this country. That the states actually consider it as part of the marital obligation. Who knew? Not me. I told him it had been over a year at that point and he just leaned back, smiled and said we've got our grounds for the divorce.

 

[Bobmi357]

and when we finally do leave, there's a whole bunch of people ready to condemn us because all they see are the intervening years where everything seemed ok on the outside.

and god forbid if you leave because of a lack of intimacy, like i did!
because then, you're labelled a 'selfish, self-centred bitch'.

Therein lies the problem Warrior Queen. We spend so much time trying to put a nice face on a bad situation that when it finally breaks down, family and friends are shocked and surprised.

You, Bandit and myself, all basically left for the same reasons. The lack of basic intimacy, and I'm not even talking about sex here. Hugs, a caress, someone to wrap their arms around you in the night.

Those basic human needs are so fundamental to everyone and so often overlooked. Those folks on this board should take us as a warning. Hug your mate! Hold hands when you're walking up the mall. Far more important than your ability to give head, or to find her G spot, is your ability to let your mate know that you appreciate them and want them in your life.

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!!!

 

[Cathleen]

Bob, Bandit, WQ, I understand what you are saying - no doubt there, sex isn't something to be used against another. I would be angry too. I didn't passover his remarks though, if I am considering his situation then I have to hear all his words and many are just flattly mean.

He states he tells his wife of his other sexual activities, clearly there is something wrong with his marriage but he obviously doesn't have much love for her - she isn't physically appealing to him, she is cold and distant.

His words do speak volumes - I'm just saying I can't discount his caustic remarks totally. I wonder if he will come back. I sure wouldn't want to be in his shoes - or hers.

As for not having sex being grounds for divorce, wouldn't she have the same argument? Man - what a can of worms that is, a he said she said fiasco.

I am sorry relationships like these do exist - I have a friend in one now and my heart breaks for him very much. Lack of intimacy in life is one of the greatest heartbreaks.


edit: I do heed your warning, I can't tell you how much I've learned here about what is important to a healthy relationship and how easily it can go sour. It is scary in some ways, but having so many honest discussions has been priceless to me.

 

[Bobmi357]

Bob, Bandit, WQ, I understand what you are saying - no doubt there, sex isn't something to be used against another. I would be angry too. I didn't passover his remarks though, if I am considering his situation then I have to hear all his words and many are just flattly mean.

He states he tells his wife of his other sexual activities, clearly there is something wrong with his marriage but he obviously doesn't have much love for her - she isn't physically appealing to him, she is cold and distant.

His words do speak volumes - I'm just saying I can't discount his caustic remarks totally. I wonder if he will come back. I sure wouldn't want to be in his shoes - or hers.

I can't help but wonder. Had I stayed in my relationship I know sooner or later my resistance to cheating would have probably broken down, and considering my feelings towards my ex, yeah I probably would have paraded my infidelities in her face like he's doing if for no other reason than causing her pain similar to what she's caused me. I'd like to think I'm mature enough that I would not stoop so low, but on the other hand one can't help but wonder. Fortunately for me, thats all it will ever be, wondering.

Its a childish and immature response to a bad situation. I can't condone his cheating on her, but I can understand why he's telling her. Somewhere deep down, and quite foolishly, I think he's hoping that he'll be able to shock her into having sex with him again, if for no other reason than to prove to him she's capable of it. Its not going to work, he knows that, but he still does it anyway.

The two of them are locked into this pepertual cycle of hurting each other. Its an escalating thing and has completely taken over whats left of the relationship. Thats why I still say he should get out of it. Its gone way past trying to fix it.

 

[Cathleen]

I can't help but wonder. Had I stayed in my relationship I know sooner or later my resistance to cheating would have probably broken down, and considering my feelings towards my ex, yeah I probably would have paraded my infidelities in her face like he's doing if for no other reason than causing her pain similar to what she's caused me. I'd like to think I'm mature enough that I would not stoop so low, but on the other hand one can't help but wonder. Fortunately for me, thats all it will ever be, wondering.

Its a childish and immature response to a bad situation. I can't condone his cheating on her, but I can understand why he's telling her. Somewhere deep down, and quite foolishly, I think he's hoping that he'll be able to shock her into having sex with him again, if for no other reason than to prove to him she's capable of it. Its not going to work, he knows that, but he still does it anyway.

The two of them are locked into this pepertual cycle of hurting each other. Its an escalating thing and has completely taken over whats left of the relationship. Thats why I still say he should get out of it. Its gone way past trying to fix it.

Gosh, I am just so glad I'm not in this situation - it must feel horrible in so many ways. I know we sometimes respond in ways we wish we didn't and when we do it must hurt something fierce. Thanks Bob, I have a better understanding now. While it is helpful for me to hear this I am sorry it has happened....... the depth of the hurt and pain must be awful.

 

[BlueSugar]

[snip] We discussed and discussed and discussed, always with short term improvements, then back to the way it was very soon.
[/snip]

Communication. You need to beat the horse till its dead. Don't walk away from it, don't assume anything.

Talk.
Take baby steps maybe even going to see a professional.

... no improvement?

Then its time to let go.

No, "I've done that, we've had some talks, every now and then..." no.. it needs to be drilled and gone over in all honesty .

 

[DuckLover]

Therein lies the problem Warrior Queen. We spend so much time trying to put a nice face on a bad situation that when it finally breaks down, family and friends are shocked and surprised.

You, Bandit and myself, all basically left for the same reasons. The lack of basic intimacy, and I'm not even talking about sex here. Hugs, a caress, someone to wrap their arms around you in the night.

Those basic human needs are so fundamental to everyone and so often overlooked. Those folks on this board should take us as a warning. Hug your mate! Hold hands when you're walking up the mall. Far more important than your ability to give head, or to find her G spot, is your ability to let your mate know that you appreciate them and want them in your life.

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!!!

AMEN BROTHER!!

The intimacy, compassion, caring in my relationship is FAR more important than the sex.

 

[Bandit58]

I never cheated, but near the end, I could have. I met someone online, a younger man, 30 to my 43. We became friends, flirted a little, he paid me attention. We cybered.....I found myself getting "switched on", all the sexual feelings I never knew I had came to the fore. I could have met him in real time, but I didn't.

Was that the catalyst which made me leave?? Probably. I realised that there was more to life that I wanted, needed to experience. By this time I realised that I hated the sight of my husband and could not stand the thought of spending any more time married to him.

After I did leave, I did heaps of reading and talking to people. I realised what I had been living with was abusive. Emotional and manipulative abuse. It was like I woke up after a very long sleep. These days I am still learning, still finding the "real me" who was hiding for all those years. And I have a lover who is all for me making those discoveries.

My ex never would even hold my hand if we were in the street. Now Gil and I kiss and hold hands in public, even exchanging a smile seems so intimate. At home he loves to watch me, whether I'm naked or not Just kissing and cuddling in bed, and snuggling together to sleep. The way he looks at me makes me melt. And sex with him is......like I have no words for how he makes me feel. We show each other the love we feel every day. We're apart right now, but each of us knows the other loves them, and the reunion in 10 days will be very sweet.....

 

[intelsuit]

Thanks for the advice everyone

I have to agree with most of the comments because that is how I am feeling.
I have told her about the cheating because I want her to realize that I want sex, I want to be held touched appreciated. I need a willing partner.

I go to work and school. Most days I am home long enough to sleep shower and get to work on time.

More insight into the relationship...
When my first son was born she was so afraid that he would stop breathing that she had him sleep in the bed with us. That literally put a wedge between us. This went on for a while and she accused me several times of suffocating him. I am a heavy sleeper. I did roll on to him a couple of times but it was only a leg or arm not his face or chest. I was very resentful of him I have to admit. Because all of a sudden He was getting all of the love and attention and I didn't get jack. I have always jerked off but now it was my only form of release.
This went on for a while. I got a couple of kisses and hugs during the day but never anything at night.
I got sick one time and I slept in the other room. I got so much more sleep and I felt so much better. I tried to come back after I was well but I got accused of being the bed hog and I found it was just easier to sleep in the other bed. After my first son went to school he slept in his own bed. There was not much of a break time between him moving out of the bed and our second son being born. I came back to the bed but I didn't get much sleep because my wife now had become the bed hog. Even though she accused me of taking up too much room. After my second son was born I moved out of the bed again for the same reasons.
I have been sleeping in the other bed now for years. When my son goes to school next year he will be in the bed that I sleep in. My first son is now 8. My second son is now 4.
I will once again move back into the bed and sleep with my wife. I am looking forward to it but not really. I like to sleep and the bed is actually too hard for me. I know it sounds like excuses but it really is not. My wife in fact has been thinking about getting a new bed. Mybe a new bed and a new chance at our relationship also. The jury is out on this one.

When I cheated on her with the other woman it was wonderful. The girl was a very willing participant. We did everything except have sex. I think I mentioned this before but I feel more insight is needed here. She did things to me and for me that I didn't have to ask. Sure it was all within a span of maybe 60 to 90 minutes but it was good. She was willing. She actually got excited when I touched her. She showed a response not just a dead fish. It was exciting and wonderful. I think about it occasionally when I am masturbating. Makes great material.

This weekend I did a few projects around the home. Things that had been neglected for a while. Things that my wife had wanted to get done for quite some time. I figured that I would do some honey do projects maybe to please her and to just get them done.
So last night she, my wife, watched some scary ghost story. Late last night I finished caulking the tub. <skip explanation> when I was done my wife was already asleep. I didn't want to disturb her so I just went to bed.
In the middle of the night she came to see me in my room. She said she was scared. We spooned and I stroked her tummy and gave her kisses to reassure her that everything was ok. she calmed down and seemed to enjoy it. I tried to undo her bra but she protested and so I stopped.
We laid there for a while and I drifted in and out of sleep. I rolled over and again started stroking her stomach. I told her that it was cold. No response. I said I think I know some place that is warmer and started moving my had down towards her pussy. She protested and started to get up and leave. I reacted without even thinking and profusly apologized for even trying. I didn't want her to leave because this is the closest we had been in months.
I laid there a little while and then turned over and went to sleep. When she got up to leave, she woke me and as she was walking out the door I told her to have a good night. No response.

This morning she called me a butthead and chastised me for not kissing her goodnight. I told her why, you never reciprocate anyway?
Then I left for work. It was childish I know but I do not like being manipulated and I have finally woke up and realized that is exactly what she is doing. She with holds anykind of affection unless I am this perfect little angel. I am not perfect and I refuse to walk around trying to be perfect in order to please her. If I am perfect then maybe, just maybe she will give me some. Bull shit.
I'm going to be who I want to be and I am making the choice to not be under her thumb. Yeah we need to talk yeah we have problems. I think I will take everyone's advice and try counseling before calling it quits.
I love my sons and I love spending time with them. I like being there with them. I think that if it were just my wife and I, I would have called it quits a long time ago.

 

[SexyChele]

Damn, I see so many things wrong here it is difficult to find a point to begin!

Intelsuit, all we have to go on is what you say. I'm not saying that you are lying or misrepresenting the truth, but in all things there are three sides: his, hers, the truth. We all have just 1/3 of the equation here.

As I've read what you've written, I try to envision myself as your wife and what would make her the way she is. Here is what I've come up with:

1. The infidelity business. Bad news. It is horrible enough when a woman finds out her husband is cheating, but to have him come forth with the news to tell her to "put out"?? Huh??? I can see clearly where my response would something like, "Yeah? Okay, go fuck your sluts cause you ain't getting it here, but I will take that paycheck and stay here just long enough for the kids." Understand? I can see a man (or woman) being tempted to cheat, and perhaps even doing so, but to come clean with no other real motive but to make her feel inadequate?

2. You "don't mind fucking her"???? WTF!?!? What about "making love"? And the "don't mind" attitude comes through loud and clear, even if one's partner doesn't actually say the words. Sure, you are angry and hurt, but you need to really get out of this me, me, me mode.

3. The "honey do" list thing. Okay, I'm going to be brutally honest here. There are a lot of men out there (women too, so this is equal opportunity!) who, when asked to do things around the house, come up with all sorts of excuses not to do them. As the list builds, and more and more things need to get done, and one has told her partner so many times, it gets downright frustrating! Yes, sometimes it is easier to do it oneself, but if the project really does require one's partner to do, and they seemingly can think of anything else to do but that particular thing, it really doesn't foster loving feelings. Can a woman get seriously frustrated with her man because he hasn't caulked the tub for months? Hell yes, she can! Especially if she has been asking and asking and asking for months for him to do it. It turns into this sort of "he's just being lazy because he has so many other things he can do, but this one little thing I ask he has no time for." So guess what? The next time you want affection? You ain't getting it. NOT because you aren't perfect and not because the tub wasn't caulked in a timely manner! No, it's because she may feel you disrepected her and purposely went out of your way to frustrate her. And believe me, when one is frustrated with another person it is damn difficult to suddenly "turn on the fire." So yeah, maybe you might want to take a look at the "honey do" list and see what else needs to get done.

You two have a serious problem, and I'm thinking your wife isn't thinking everything is rosey either. I would strongly suggest counseling - but only if you have the attitude that you really want to work this out. (From what you have written, I get not feeling that you even love your wife - if you ever did. She's just sort of this human body that dwells in the same place that you do.) And the cuddling up thing the other night? That was a good start - until you turned it sexual. For a lot of women, their minds must be engaged as well as their bodies. She was afraid, she needed comfort. It probably took her a good deal of effort to come to you. She had seen you were willing to do some of the things she had asked you to do. There is a warming here. That is good. Snuggling, cuddling, holding, kissing - this is intimacy. It might have been her way of attempting baby steps. Then you reached for the snatch and turned it into attempted fuckfest. (Just trying to let you in on how some women interpret these moves) You were trying to show affection, yes. But she wasn't to that point yet.

*sigh*

It sounds as if there is a good deal of hurt on both sides of this mess. And the healing isn't going to happen overnight, if at all. It sounds as if there are trust and communication issues, and if I were you I'd be more concerned about the health of the relationship than the lack of sexual activity. If a relationship is healthy, sex will be a natural outcome. If the relationship is not healthy, guess what? Sex is gone. I would recommend making an appointment for couples counseling immediately and start getting to the root of the problem. You do not have a sexual problem. You have a relationship problem.

Oh, and if you think leaving this relationship for another will change that? Hardly. Unless you learn what you did to contribute to this, you will enter into another relationship equally as dismal.

 

[SweetErika]

Thanks for clarifying Intelsuit. I'm glad you're going to try counseling, and understand you like spending time with the kids, but if that doesn't work, divorce is the best thing you can do for them. Divorce is painful for kids, but it's a lot better than seeing such an unhealthy relationship modelled.

Good luck to you!

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Somebody remind me why people marry? again? Damn - not only is this a sad sad story - its a very common story too. I have several friends and a sister living this life right now. All of them sleeping in separate rooms even.

Letting that baby sleep with you EVERY nite was the first biggy. Should have gone right to counseling right then. Now its 8 years later.... that's a lot of time.

 

[bkp]

Originally posted by intelsuit
We didn't have kids then, she was thinner and much more hotter.

She has let herself go. She is much more overweight than she used to be.

That's the problem right there, She's not comfortable with herself. She's going through self esteem issues.
I think everybody goes through this
when they get a little older, have kids, gain weight ect.... It's insecurity from losing their youth.
My wife goes through this from time to time, She thinks she's fat, short, old, ugly, you name it.
I reminder her everyday that she's HOT
Keep reassuring her that you love her for who she is and that you still find her
to be hot, sexy and most of all beautiful.

 

[bkp]

Man, I don't know what to say except I'm sorry !
Your self esteem must have been non existent.

Thats how long I put up with the ice queen who wouldn't even hug me. 12 years of her telling me I'm incapable of pleasing her, 12 fucking years of her refusing to show me the slightest bit of affection. Sure we had sex, enough to father two children. After that, she moved into the boys room and slept on the floor for 9 years. And mind you, I NEVER laid a hand on her. Sleeping in the boys room meant she didn't have to sleep with me. Locking the door was just her way of saying "Don't even think it."

 

[Bobmi357]

Intel,
Reading your post was quite painful for me. It was like reading myself posting from the past.

Your wife has resorted to a power game. She controls the sex in the relationship. She meters it out like its a prize for good behavior. And your resentment of that is understandable, and glaringly obvious.

When sex becomes a weapon used in a relationship, unless things can be brought to an even keel again, the relationship is basically over. A lot of people here are saying go for counciling. I'm not. DIVORCE HER. Get out while you still have your health and your sanity.

Sure divorce is shit on the kids, but kids aren't stupid either. They see Mommy and Daddy never exchanging a single affectionate gesture and barely maintaining civility. What kind of message are you sending them? Its not a good message I can tell you that.

I can't condone your cheating on your wife. But lord knows I can fully understand why you did and why you told her about it. But the problem is, telling her only poisoned the relationship further.

I see so much of my first marriage in what you post. Separate sleeping arrangements, the subtle teasing (and believe me, she knew what you'd try to do when she laid down with you). I also see so much of myself in the groveling attitude. I hated having to beg for sex, and hated her for making me, almost as I hated myself for doing it. She is playing on the fact that you're basically starving for some attention and she the one that controls whether you get it or not. She has the food and she's dangling it just out of reach.

Near the end of my marriage I was working 70 hour work weeks simply because going home was too painful, too uncomfortable and too stressful.

Sometimes you reach a point where you have no choice but to make a hard decision and stop thinking of your marriage, and your family, or your kids and think about yourself. Ask yourself, do you want to spend the rest of your life under these conditions? Because my friend, you're not likely to see them change much. You can't force her into counciling and even if you do, odds are she won't want to change. Why should she? She has your money, she has someone to putter around the house fixing what she can't and you've already given up your voice in your sex life. You ceded that to her a long long time ago when she first moved that baby into the bed with you. Its incredibly hard to change habits that have been years in the making.

But lets say, just for arguments sake you do decide to leave her. What then? Well if you're really lucky, like me, you'll find yourself a wonderful woman that will teach you what I learned.

I was 35 when I left my wife. Leaving my boys was the hardest thing I had ever done and the most painful. But in the state of New York, unless Mommy is a direct descendant of Lizzie Borden, you cannot get her declared unfit to be a parent. I was 35 when I met a girl, yes a girl, she was only 22 at the time and in college. She might have been young, and not very experienced, but she was the one that taught me to love .

Everynight I go to bed touching her and every morning I wake up touching her. And when it comes my turn to shuffle off this mortal coil I hope to god my last sensations are her touching me. There is nothing more precious than the touch of someone that loves you. Its worth more than all the gold in the world and I wouldn't trade it for that gold, ever.

She restored my faith in myself, life and love. I was like a man in the desert, she the oasis, and the water was cool and pure. I've set my tent by that oasis and I never intend to leave it.

Intel, there are millions of women out there, unattached that would be thrilled to have a man that treats them with love and respect. Millions of women that would die to have someone willing to hold them in the night and have someone to hold. All you need to do is cut your losses and start taking stock of what you have to offer to the right woman. She is out there right now, looking for you.

Go for it. Divorce the controlling icequeen and get on with your life.

 

[warrior queen]

bobmi

just when i think you can't surprise me any more with your insight - you do exactly that

well said, and i second, third, fourth and fifth your statement...

DIVORCE HER.

 

[Bobmi357]

Damn, I see so many things wrong here it is difficult to find a point to begin!

Intelsuit, all we have to go on is what you say. I'm not saying that you are lying or misrepresenting the truth, but in all things there are three sides: his, hers, the truth. We all have just 1/3 of the equation here.

Perhaps, but I've walked in this mans same shoes. His posts sent shivers down my spine, he could have been posting from my own past. Right down to the wife and his sleeping arrangements. So forgive me, but I been there, done that and have both the scars and health issues to prove it. I believe him.

1. The infidelity business. Bad news. It is horrible enough when a woman finds out her husband is cheating, but to have him come forth with the news to tell her to "put out"?? Huh??? I can see clearly where my response would something like, "Yeah? Okay, go fuck your sluts cause you ain't getting it here, but I will take that paycheck and stay here just long enough for the kids." Understand? I can see a man (or woman) being tempted to cheat, and perhaps even doing so, but to come clean with no other real motive but to make her feel inadequate?

Oh yeah he screwed the poochie on this one. But I can understand why he did it. Its a gut reaction, he wanted to lash out and hurt her as much as she's hurt him. It was immature, and wrong. And his reasoning was way off base. On the other hand, the relationship is basically dead anyway, letting her know he's willing to risk her wrath and a possible ugly divorce might have startled her into thinking "Maybe we should work on improving things before we end up in court". Unfortunately he isn't dealing with a rational human over there, and his emotions are making him less than rational from time to time as well.

That she didn't immediately divorce him is clear evidense in my mind that she knows she's got him totally pussy whipped and intends to keep him that way.

2. You "don't mind fucking her"???? WTF!?!? What about "making love"? And the "don't mind" attitude comes through loud and clear, even if one's partner doesn't actually say the words. Sure, you are angry and hurt, but you need to really get out of this me, me, me mode.

You try living in his situation for a while and you'll no longer consider it making love either. Love needs to be nutured to keep it alive and there's no nuturing going on in that relationship.

Frankly it pisses me off entirely that you even bring up the "me me me" business. That isn't something most of us in his boat think of at the start of the relationship, it isn't something we think of in the middle of the relationship. Its what causes us to leave at the end of the relationship. And only because "me me me" has been ignored for so long that we become starved for any sort of human contact that can be found outside of the home environs.

I stayed in my shitty situation for the sake of the kids. I stayed, constantly hoping it might get better. I stayed because she might change. It wasn't until my health started to suffer from the stress that I got smart and decided to think of me for a change. So if I opt to be selfish and think of myself for the first time in 12 fucking years, or in his case, 15 years, sue us.

3. The "honey do" list thing. Okay, I'm going to be brutally honest here. There are a lot of men out there (women too, so this is equal opportunity!) who, when asked to do things around the house, come up with all sorts of excuses not to do them. As the list builds, and more and more things need to get done, and one has told her partner so many times, it gets downright frustrating! Yes, sometimes it is easier to do it oneself, but if the project really does require one's partner to do, and they seemingly can think of anything else to do but that particular thing, it really doesn't foster loving feelings. Can a woman get seriously frustrated with her man because he hasn't caulked the tub for months? Hell yes, she can! Especially if she has been asking and asking and asking for months for him to do it. It turns into this sort of "he's just being lazy because he has so many other things he can do, but this one little thing I ask he has no time for." So guess what? The next time you want affection? You ain't getting it. NOT because you aren't perfect and not because the tub wasn't caulked in a timely manner! No, it's because she may feel you disrepected her and purposely went out of your way to frustrate her. And believe me, when one is frustrated with another person it is damn difficult to suddenly "turn on the fire." So yeah, maybe you might want to take a look at the "honey do" list and see what else needs to get done.

Quite true. And there are also people out there that are leeches. They simply refuse to do anything for you until you've done something for them. Early in my first marriage I learned if I really wanted to get laid, bring her home a present. What a fool I was. I was married to my own personal hooker and needed to pay her above and beyond what I gave her every week from my paycheck. Silly me, everyone pays for sex right?

He's married to one such woman. Sex is her way to the finer things in life, be they a fixed tub or diamond earrings. She uses it as a lure to get her way and withholds it when she doesn't get what she wants. She's using it to control him plain and simple. He needs to wake up and inform her he's not going to play her game anymore.

You two have a serious problem, and I'm thinking your wife isn't thinking everything is rosey either. I would strongly suggest counseling - but only if you have the attitude that you really want to work this out. (From what you have written, I get not feeling that you even love your wife - if you ever did.

Nope, his time for fixing this passed a long time ago. If he's smart he'll divorce her. Staying together for the sake of the kids is bullshit, the kids aren't stupid, the only thing they will learn if he stays, is what its like to grow up in a dysfunctional family.

She's just sort of this human body that dwells in the same place that you do.) And the cuddling up thing the other night? That was a good start - until you turned it sexual. For a lot of women, their minds must be engaged as well as their bodies. She was afraid, she needed comfort. It probably took her a good deal of effort to come to you. She had seen you were willing to do some of the things she had asked you to do. There is a warming here. That is good. Snuggling, cuddling, holding, kissing - this is intimacy. It might have been her way of attempting baby steps. Then you reached for the snatch and turned it into attempted fuckfest. (Just trying to let you in on how some women interpret these moves) You were trying to show affection, yes. But she wasn't to that point yet.

For the first time in how many months his "wife" comes to his bed and she gets pissed because he tries to get sexual with her. Perhaps if she said she was only interested in being held, ok. But what else is he supposed to think?

Frankly he's more forgiving than I would have been. Had my exwife come to my bedroom in the middle of the night by year 10, I would have checked her for knives, then told her to get the hell out.

It sounds as if there is a good deal of hurt on both sides of this mess. And the healing isn't going to happen overnight, if at all. It sounds as if there are trust and communication issues, and if I were you I'd be more concerned about the health of the relationship than the lack of sexual activity. If a relationship is healthy, sex will be a natural outcome. If the relationship is not healthy, guess what? Sex is gone. I would recommend making an appointment for couples counseling immediately and start getting to the root of the problem. You do not have a sexual problem. You have a relationship problem.

Oh, and if you think leaving this relationship for another will change that? Hardly. Unless you learn what you did to contribute to this, you will enter into another relationship equally as dismal. [/B]

What relationship? Chele, there is no relationship here. He's sharing his home with a roomate and they happen to have some kids together. The relationship ended a long time ago. Its just that they haven't understood that little point yet.

As far as I see it she has no reason to end the relationship. She's got him firmly tied down, gets her needs met financially and he'll continue to hang around until the stress either kills him or he snaps.

Sure he contributed to this mess, but his greatest contribution could have been his passitivity. he ceded his rightful spot in the bedroom, he ceded control over his sex life, he ceded control for all forms of human affection to her. I know what thats like because I made those same damn mistakes in my first marriage. I never hit her, we rarely fought. In fact, by the end of the fourth year, we rarely even talked. The few times we tried to talk, she'd end up shrieking curses and hurling objects at me while I beat a hasty retreat into my bedroom.

You see, the reason why I'm so worked up about this is because intelsuit is a reflection of myself and what I've gone through. His posts have invoked a deep anger in me, not at him, but at me. Frankly I wish I could kick myself at this point and scream "How could I have been so stupid to put up with this?".

His posts are like an open wound I had thought had healed, only now its torn open again. I'm sorry if any of this offends you chele, but I've had to reply to your post. You do list some very valid possible points. But they are only possible points and having lived through what he's going through now, I had to step in and say, "Yeah, but what he's saying may really be the truth. It happened to me".

 

[Cathleen]

<big snip>


Everynight I go to bed touching her and every morning I wake up touching her. And when it comes my turn to shuffle off this mortal coil I hope to god my last sensations are her touching me. There is nothing more precious than the touch of someone that loves you. Its worth more than all the gold in the world and I wouldn't trade it for that gold, ever.

She restored my faith in myself, life and love. I was like a man in the desert, she the oasis, and the water was cool and pure. I've set my tent by that oasis and I never intend to leave it.

Bob, I love the way you love your wife ~ it is beautiful.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

These kinda threads make me sad. They also make me really appreciate what I have. It may not be perfect - and its definately not what most others would choose - but at least we love eachother and love being together. damn........

 

[SkyBluAngelEyes]

Ya know, the more I read Bobmi, the more I agree with him.

I've also been thru a nasty divorce. I do agree that any idiot who stays in a shitty marriage for the *sake of the children* is bullshit. Kids are much smarter and resilient than we give them credit for.

I also appreciate what I've got. I've been thru this crap once, too. I wouldn't do it again.

 

[warrior queen]

That's the problem right there, She's not comfortable with herself. She's going through self esteem issues.
I think everybody goes through this
when they get a little older, have kids, gain weight ect.... It's insecurity from losing their youth.
My wife goes through this from time to time, She thinks she's fat, short, old, ugly, you name it.
I reminder her everyday that she's HOT
Keep reassuring her that you love her for who she is and that you still find her
to be hot, sexy and most of all beautiful.

-------------------------------------------------

Man, I don't know what to say except I'm sorry !
Your self esteem must have been non existent.

i disagree with you bkp.
this situation did not start out as a self-esteem issue.
this began as a CONTROL issue, and escalated to the point where one partner's self-esteem was worn down.

contrary to popular belief, women do not 'let themselves go' because of their self-esteem - they naturally change and alter as a result of a) childbirth, b) comfort, and c) sheer laziness.

think for a second - if you don't have to try so hard because you already have all the power within a relationship.... would you? really?

 

[warrior queen]

You try living in his situation for a while and you'll no longer consider it making love either. Love needs to be nutured to keep it alive and there's no nuturing going on in that relationship.

or you have what i ended up with - a man who only wants to touch you when he feels the need to reinforce his own safety/attractiveness, or when he feels it might help his insomnia.

'making love?'
naaahhh - i was a FUCK, pure and simple.

 

[Kissophile]

i disagree with you bkp.
this situation did not start out as a self-esteem issue.
this began as a CONTROL issue, and escalated to the point where one partner's self-esteem was worn down.

contrary to popular belief, women do not 'let themselves go' because of their self-esteem - they naturally change and alter as a result of a) childbirth, b) comfort, and c) sheer laziness.

think for a second - if you don't have to try so hard because you already have all the power within a relationship.... would you? really?

Exactly. Self-esteem is a consequence, not a cause.