Independent vs. Dependent - Dominants/subs

[FungiUg]

1. Slaves do NOT have the choice as to whether they want to be financially/emotionally dependent on their Masters ... that right was given up upon acceptance of their role/position as a slave.

2. Submissives - You always have the choice to accept/not accept this kind of dependency. In other words, you can always walk ladies.

3. Bottoms - You fine people know what you can and cannot do. Simply, bottoms are not generally submissive outside of a scene and even then, during a scene, they may not encompass all aspects of being submissive

Well, now I know!

Do we get a badge with our labels?

I have heard the terms used, and had a general understanding of them, but personally I find labelling like this is, er, counterproductive. In my experience, everyone is different, and several people I have met wouldn't fit neatly into any of those categories.

It scares me that people think they need to somehow fit themselves to their label. So again, I tend not to emphasies the distinction. "Oh my goodness, I don't seem to fit the exact definition for a Dom, so I must be doing it wrong!"

Be true to yourself. If you want to give yourself a label, then that's cool (it can help identify like-minded people.) But be yourself, not your label.

(Damn, where did that soapbox come from?)

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well, now I know!

Do we get a badge with our labels?

I have heard the terms used, and had a general understanding of them, but personally I find labelling like this is, er, counterproductive. In my experience, everyone is different, and several people I have met wouldn't fit neatly into any of those categories.

It scares me that people think they need to somehow fit themselves to their label. So again, I tend not to emphasies the distinction. "Oh my goodness, I don't seem to fit the exact definition for a Dom, so I must be doing it wrong!"

Be true to yourself. If you want to give yourself a label, then that's cool (it can help identify like-minded people.) But be yourself, not your label.

(Damn, where did that soapbox come from?)

This discussion goes on and on and I think lara was just setting up some sort of reference. As you know, well I hope you do by now, I don't expect anyone to be a cardboard cutout of what the job description might say, but some sort of defining is nice. I imagine I would still be hitting my head against virtual brick walls trying to find my Master if we had both advertised as such; 'Hi, nice person into BDSM seeks lifetime partner who is too."

Would have at the very least given a lot of people a good laugh and my email box full, perhaps, with the proverbial guy looking for an easy fuck. Not what I was after, so I needed to define myself as slave, with a brief idea of what that meant to me, and in search of a Master, and what that role would define for me to be happy. Is logical to me.

Catalina

 

[s'lara]

Well, now I know!

Do we get a badge with our labels?

I have heard the terms used, and had a general understanding of them, but personally I find labelling like this is, er, counterproductive. In my experience, everyone is different, and several people I have met wouldn't fit neatly into any of those categories.

It scares me that people think they need to somehow fit themselves to their label. So again, I tend not to emphasies the distinction. "Oh my goodness, I don't seem to fit the exact definition for a Dom, so I must be doing it wrong!"

Be true to yourself. If you want to give yourself a label, then that's cool (it can help identify like-minded people.) But be yourself, not your label.

(Damn, where did that soapbox come from?)

i have to remember to chew the asparagus instead of spewing it on my laptop.

i am what i am. masosub and happy with the title. i am glad i found something to call it because for quite a while i had not a clue.

Fungi, we have gone down the road of labelling in the past and i am quite sure many have expressed their like/dislike of these terms, including you if i remember. i am sure i made some pretty strong statements (in the past) about not pigeon-holing people into neat little categories. However, i think the predominant terms are sub/slave/bottom and instead of getting into a list as long as my arm, i thought settling on these three would be easier. No offense to all who have other orientations which are outside the three categories i stated.

As i said, for purposes of clarification,the definitions were stated. If i've left out any parties, whether you are glad to be labeless or not, my apologies. Whatever your tastes, feel free to respond if it applies to you.

Preaching to the choir Fungi. i have seen a strong sense of self-identification among the people on this board, particularly those that do not fit into the "labels." They seem cool with where they fit (or do not fit) and seem to need no reminder to maintain their individuality outside the box.

The soapbox looks better than a pulpit btw ... not so scary.

lara

 

[FungiUg]

Yeah, like I said, I don't know where that soapbox came from, because I know your own dislike of constricting labels.

But the choir is soooo cute!

(Kicks his soapbox into the corner, and jumps up and down on it in a temper tantrum worthy of a 2 year old.)

There, now I feel better!

 

[AngelicAssassin]

... Do we get a badge with our labels? ... (Damn, where did that soapbox come from?)

Newp, just a vest.

Take this one, stand by the door, smile and say welcome to everyone that enters.

If a blue light goes off, don't worry. It's neither the police, nor men in white with nets and a nice jacket for you. Just Martha dropping more stock at a propitious moment.

Just teasing.

i don't think she intended labels, just broad common categories.

And if she did intend labels, let the beatings begin, but i'll sit this one out.

 

[s'lara]

Sighs

<snip>And if she did intend labels, let the beatings begin, but i'll sit this one out. [/B]

*struggling not to contradict herself for the sake of those beatings*

There are moments when i hate sticking by my word ... makes you miss out on the good stuff sometimes.

*Hangs her head and does the hollywood shuffle into the gloom*

lara

 

[ownedsubgal]

I tend to disagree s'lara as there are many who still struggle with the differences in the roles. A sub may have those dependencies, though I have never found them to extend as far as with slaves, nor are they usually out of their control completely as she is free to leave, object, etc., whereas in general, slaves give up that right and surrender control to their owner. What s/he chooses to do with that control then depends on the owner, not the slave. This is true for both osg and myself, though I would guage she has reached a far higher level than I at this point, but one to which I aspire.

As to her name belying her role, I think it spells it out well as IMHO a slave is submissive, thus the 'sub' part, and is indeed owned. As I have stated in other threads, and I know it is only my opinion though many share it, though a slave is submissive, a submissive is not a slave. the responsibilities of the roles differ for me in one retains rights and freedoms, whereas the other does not.

For this reason, I mentioned it as I did not want any misunderstandings in relation to my post. As the question in part was dealing with how dependent one was prepared to become, I thought the distinction was important because in the way I see a slave role, you have to be aware of, and accept, that in committing to the relationship, you may be required to become totally dependent at any time according to the wishes of your owner. My understanding is a submissive faced with a similar proposition from their dominant, still has a choice, and if worse comes to worse, can choose to walk.

Catalina

thanks Catalina, for clarifying why my handle is not a contradiction. there are some who feel there's this big bold line between submissives and slaves...you're one, or you're the other. you can't be both. that is such, well, bulldookey to me, lol. a consentual slave must be submissive...and one doesn't become "un"submissive upon becoming a slave...therefore, i'm an owned submissive, a slave.

but i do agree with lara in that a submissive who is not owned can become just as dependent on their Dominant as a slave. i am not totally dependent on my Master simply because i am his slave....being dependent is just a part of my nature. were i in a serious relationship, but not owned, i would still be extremely, if not entirely, dependent on my mate. so i think it has more to do with one's personality and nature than one's so called "role".

 

[MissTaken]

submissives/slaves/bottoms - How dependent are you willing to be? i am not talking about trust ... we all know that is a requisite. i am talking about dependency ...financially, mentally, emotionally. Do you as the sub/slave/bottom believe it is necessary to surrender your personal independence, daily ability to cope, etc. to Someone else in order to be "the good sub/slave/bottom?"

Thanks in advance for the comments.

lara

I cannot be completely dependant upon anyone but myself in terms of finances and day to day decisions. There is, however, a certain amount of dependance in seeking guidance and support, in deferring to the Other, if that is the situation. Some decisions are meant to be shared, others given over. However, while raising two children, I cannot let my relationship impact them to the degree that they are negatively effected by a break up or release. i.e. finding one's self broke after giving over financial control and later breaking up.

Perhaps, that makes me a bad sub, in some eyes, but as long as I am the best ME I can be, then I have achieved everything.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Re: Re: Independent vs. Dependent - Dominants/subs

However, while raising two children, I cannot let my relationship impact them to the degree that they are negatively effected by a break up or release. i.e. finding one's self broke after giving over financial control and later breaking up.

Perhaps, that makes me a bad sub, in some eyes, but as long as I am the best ME I can be, then I have achieved everything.

Thank You Miss T for putting it far better than i could...though i did try!!!

PET

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: Sighs

*struggling not to contradict herself for the sake of those beatings*

There are moments when i hate sticking by my word ... makes you miss out on the good stuff sometimes.

*Hangs her head and does the hollywood shuffle into the gloom*

lara

Chuckling ... Good girl.

 

[Georgia Girl]

For my Master and I it goes both ways to a degree. Decisions regarding my child and things to do with work I will ask his input and I will use him as a sounding board because he does understand my thought process but for the most part he allows me to make those decisions because I know more about being my son's mother and about being a social worker.

Regarding being his possession I have boundaries that I stay within. As others have said, the decisions I make reflect what he would like because I know his taste, ie. I know I'm not allowed to cut my hair, I know the exercise he likes me to do, etc. I suppose the sums up to mean I still have a great measure of independence at this point. Will that change in time? Could be, I don't know.

 

[MechaBlade]

Dominants - What would you prefer in terms of dependency from your submissive/slave/bottom? Would you prefer an independent person; someone who feels complete with You in his/her life, but will not cease to function should You leave/expire? Or would you rather someone who is completely dependent upon You for survival; someone who needs Your input on everything (i mean the smallest decisions)?

I would want my sub to be capable of making small decisions. There is responsibility in being a sub. But mostly, I would want an independent sub because I can't respect dependent people, and I wouldn't a relationship with someone I can't respect.

 

[Croctden]

Re: Re: Independent vs. Dependent - Dominants/subs

I cannot be completely dependant upon anyone but myself in terms of finances and day to day decisions. There is, however, a certain amount of dependance in seeking guidance and support, in deferring to the Other, if that is the situation. Some decisions are meant to be shared, others given over. However, while raising two children, I cannot let my relationship impact them to the degree that they are negatively effected by a break up or release. i.e. finding one's self broke after giving over financial control and later breaking up.

Perhaps, that makes me a bad sub, in some eyes, but as long as I am the best ME I can be, then I have achieved everything.

Wise words lady. Everyone should have somone to use as a sounding board. It's a hard life lesson to learn that you can't do it all yourself, I still struggle with it. Even as a Dom I still use my sub a mirror for serious decisions.

 

[D's mariposa]

I'm more of the mostly independant masosub myself, and D prefers me this way. The fact that I am capable of making my decisions and sticking to them and being responsible is a good thing to him. He said once that he's not particularly interested in telling me when and how to go the bathroom and exactly which two eggs to fry. Micro managing is not his style.

On the other hand, I don't make major decisions without consulting with him. His opinion and feelings matter to me. Also, I try to dress and comport myself according to his wishes. For instance, I am very body consious and shy in real life. I hate short sleeve shirts and I prefer long skirts. I do NOT want people looking at my body. Enter D. Who prefers as much skin as possible and shorter skirts. SO, I've tried to modify my dressing habits to please him. The long sleeves are still there, but they're of sheerer, more feminine fabrics. I still have a few long skirts, but most of them are knee lenght (ok for work) or shorter (for outside of work.).

edited because I entered too soon.

It's kind of like what a friend of mine said. He is a Dominant who travels alot for work. Recently he's spent a lot of time in Japan and Hong Kong. Asian women are raised to be submissive, therefore he did not find them attractive as a Dominant looking at submissives. Since they were raised to be submissive and did not make make a conscious choice to act on their submissive qualities they were not as attractive to him as a Dominant. As a guy looking at cute sexy ladies, he was attracted but not on a D/s level. Obviously, he's not into the needy slave/sub type.

This isn't meant to be an indictement for or against the needy sub/slave. I'm just not one of them. It's like, while I crave his Dominance, and I want to please him and live for him, if suddenly he disappeared tomorrow (Goddess forbid) I'd live through it. I know how to handle money, change the oil in my car, and get myself to work on time. I just wouldn't be as happy.

 

[Mr. Bootie]

Right On Miss T !

I cannot be completely dependant upon anyone but myself in terms of finances and day to day decisions. There is, however, a certain amount of dependance in seeking guidance and support, in deferring to the Other, if that is the situation. Some decisions are meant to be shared, others given over. However, while raising two children, I cannot let my relationship impact them to the degree that they are negatively effected by a break up or release. i.e. finding one's self broke after giving over financial control and later breaking up.

Perhaps, that makes me a bad sub, in some eyes, but as long as I am the best ME I can be, then I have achieved everything.

No, this doesn't make you a bad sub Honey, it just means you are wise. You have to not only look after you, but your kids. I respect a woman that puts her kids first. So should the Dom that is lucky enough to have you as thier sub.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

submissives/slaves/bottoms - How dependent are you willing to be? i am not talking about trust ... we all know that is a requisite. i am talking about dependency ...financially, mentally, emotionally. Do you as the sub/slave/bottom believe it is necessary to surrender your personal independence, daily ability to cope, etc. to Someone else in order to be "the good sub/slave/bottom?"

I've been reading this thread with some interest, and finally decided to jump in with my two cents. I don't feel it's necessary and actually feel it would be detrimental to me to surrender my personal independence in my relationship with Him, and from what He's relayed to me, He doesn't want me to. I worked very long and hard to come to a place of personal power and independence. He, frankly, was not looking for a fix-it project, so we suit each other quite well.

While there is a certain amount of dependence on Him, both emotional and mental, I would venture to say, that it is not to the extent that I could not get through a day, a week, or month without Him. We have a LDR, and I have to get through time without His physical presence more often, than not. He is my most valued counselor, and I do tell Him everything. We have no secrets, and I check my decisions with Him before I make them. Grant you, we are not talking whether I buy the zuchinni or the summer squash today. I'm talking about major decisions here....when I was job hunting, I discussed my offers with Him, the pro and cons, and listened to His opinions before I made my decision. You get the picture. Financial dependence is a non-issue at the moment.

He doesn't want to micro-manage my life, and I don't need Him too. There are far more interesting things to do, at least that's how we look at it. I don't feel like it makes me any less of a submissive. I serve Him in the way He wishes to be served, and that is the bottom line; if He up and changes His mind, and decides He wants to pick out the zuchinni, well, I'll roll with the punches

~anelize

 

[SierraMoon]

Re: Re: Independent vs. Dependent - Dominants/subs

~snip~
While there is a certain amount of dependence on Him, both emotional and mental, I would venture to say, that it is not to the extent that I could not get through a day, a week, or month without Him. We have a LDR, and I have to get through time without His physical presence more often, than not. He is my most valued counselor, and I do tell Him everything. We have no secrets, and I check my decisions with Him before I make them. Grant you, we are not talking whether I buy the zuchinni or the summer squash today. I'm talking about major decisions here....when I was job hunting, I discussed my offers with Him, the pro and cons, and listened to His opinions before I made my decision. You get the picture. Financial dependence is a non-issue at the moment.

He doesn't want to micro-manage my life, and I don't need Him too. There are far more interesting things to do, at least that's how we look at it. I don't feel like it makes me any less of a submissive. I serve Him in the way He wishes to be served, and that is the bottom line; if He up and changes His mind, and decides He wants to pick out the zuchinni, well, I'll roll with the punches

~anelize

anelize... this is exactly what He and i have. i talk about everything with Him, but He allows me to make my own decisions, for the most part. It is hard, being in an LDR, to expect Him to know what is best for me on a day to day basis. i do ask for His opinions on the big things, and usually will go with what He says... He has been counseling me on my excercise and eating, as He knows more about that kind of stuff than i do.

As far as monetarily, i make my own decisions as to how my money is spent, He is pretty lenient about that. Again, with Him being in another state, He doesn't know what my money needs are from day to day. i don't know that i would ever want to be totally dependent on Him for that. i like working and having my own money, and love buying things that i think He will like. Not sure i could handle having only an allowance to spend.

Just my opinion

 

[catalina_francisco]

The money issue also depends on the people involved. Though I am unable to work at the moment, Master views the money as ours and holds the enlightened view that I earn it as much as he by driving him with his work, doing the work at home, being there for him etc., so there is no allowance as such, and on top of that I am expected to make the decisions about where it all goes to. He is able to dispute those decisions, but to date we have not had issues in that department, usually choosing to discuss and weigh up the options.

Catalina

 

[s'lara]

Responsibility.

i am of the mind that a Dominant who expects Their submissive/slave/bottom to be dependent on them totally (read totally as emotionally, financially, etc.; whatever your definition of total dependence may be) should make certain there are plans in place to provide for the submissive/slave/bottom if Their departure takes place (voluntary or not).

Just something that came to mind while reading through the responses.

lara

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Responsibility.

i am of the mind that a Dominant who expects Their submissive/slave/bottom to be dependent on them totally (read totally as emotionally, financially, etc.; whatever your definition of total dependence may be) should make certain there are plans in place to provide for the submissive/slave/bottom if Their departure takes place (voluntary or not).

Just something that came to mind while reading through the responses.

lara

I wonder, just how many of them actually do? Keep in mind, folks, that I'm playing devil's advocate here, not trying to be a pain in the ass.

But it seems to me, that it would be very easy for a Dom/Master to walk away from his newly released formerly completely dependent sub/slave, leaving her with .... nothing.

And her, having been both emotionally, and mentally dependent, as well as financially dependent, hardly the means to regain anything.

*shaking my head*

It's a scary thought.

~anelize

 

[Quint]

Yup, and one of the things I liked and understood least about "The Story of O."

 

[catalina_francisco]

I wonder, just how many of them actually do? Keep in mind, folks, that I'm playing devil's advocate here, not trying to be a pain in the ass.

But it seems to me, that it would be very easy for a Dom/Master to walk away from his newly released formerly completely dependent sub/slave, leaving her with .... nothing.

And her, having been both emotionally, and mentally dependent, as well as financially dependent, hardly the means to regain anything.

*shaking my head*

It's a scary thought.

~anelize

Yes, is an issue Master raised in a previous thread some weeks ago, especially with thought to poly relationships. Fortunately he is responsible and is one of the reasons he insisted on marriage so I would be covered from all angles.

Catalina

 

[cellis]

Himself and I once had a conversation about this very topic... One of the things He told me attracted me to Him was my independence. Because a 24/7 is not a possibility for us at this time, I lead a pretty independant lifestyle.

Like others have stated, I wear my hair a certain way, buy and wear certain clothes... always have His favorite foods and drinks available.

There are certain rules we have in the relationship and I follow those.

I earn my own money and pay my own bills. I do consult Him from time to time on certain issues, but for the most part He doesn't have the time or energy to deal with the mundane. If He sees that I am spending too much money on clothes or toys, He will place me on restriction. ( It is for my own good.)

I will ask His permission regarding events or meetings and such. I know I don't have to... it is neither required nor requested. I do it out of respect for Him and our relationship.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Congrats cellis.

Sounds like you got lucky, blessed, and/or fulfilled.

Take your pick and revel in your time.

 

[Peter2002]

Himself and I once had a conversation about this very topic... One of the things He told me attracted me to Him was my independence. Because a 24/7 is not a possibility for us at this time, I lead a pretty independant lifestyle.

Like others have stated, I wear my hair a certain way, buy and wear certain clothes... always have His favorite foods and drinks available.

There are certain rules we have in the relationship and I follow those.

I earn my own money and pay my own bills. I do consult Him from time to time on certain issues, but for the most part He doesn't have the time or energy to deal with the mundane. If He sees that I am spending too much money on clothes or toys, He will place me on restriction. ( It is for my own good.)

I will ask His permission regarding events or meetings and such. I know I don't have to... it is neither required nor requested. I do it out of respect for Him and our relationship.

cellis, What a great post. Your man is indeed a lucky guy.

I've always found the thought and act of submission more powerful and intense when my girl does have independence -- whether it is a matter of degrees is a matter of the given relationship.

Knowning that she has choices has always heightened by awareness and appreciation of her submission in whatever form it takes be it in matters of dress or social comportment or the physical or the sexual.

By the way, telling my firl how I want her to wear her hair at any given time has always been a joy for me. Maybe there is a latent cross dresser in there somewhere .

In any case I enjoyed your thoughts.