invitation for public slicing, dicing, and other constructive skewering

[legerdemer]

You're welcome. I think about this stuff a lot.

There are various ways to say "ticking clock." You can imply it with something like "tick of decay" or "crumbling echo." Just a thought.

I like to read sort of related poems when I am writing, so I can see how great (imho) writers do something similar. Your poem made me think of Diving Into The Wreck.

Thank you for the reference to Adrienne Rich's poem!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I've been thinking about putting a few toes out here. Tentatively. The first is definitely a work in progress, it has an unfinished feel to me. Have at it, critics!


To Simpler Times...

When rose petals distilled to their essence
so only the scent remains,
when fingertips touch naked skin, leave fire trails,
when you hum softly, unaware,

that's when I recall the quiet in between moments.
Evenings pour slowly, molasses in a glass,
savoring the flavor of orange marmalade and buttered scone
at silent dawn,
a cup of tea in hand.

Lovers turned thieves of kisses
and embraces
of implied promises kept,
or not.
The dawn's the only time to mourn
what once we had.

Still, you turn that smile on me,
a touch of melancholy,
of heedless dreams and stormy seas
and pain and drought.

And I recall that once we shared all that
and more. We now set store by blind watches,
shredded statues;
marble crumbles where it falls.

I watch your naked sleeping folded form
breathe in and out, and once again,
the space between the breaths no longer seen
nor heard.

Perhaps it's you and I, again, my friend.
A few more years, a restless tune
deferred.

tangential points and loose associations. you have no point anyone can divine.

 

[Angeline]

Thank you for the reference to Adrienne Rich's poem!

You're welcome. I really did get a similar feel when I read your poem--the idea of being drawn to something to get at a truth.

 

[HarryHill]

You're welcome. I really did get a similar feel when I read your poem--the idea of being drawn to something to get at a truth.

She slices, she dices, she fricassees
c'mon folks, put your hands together for Angeline
slickest mod on Laurel's green earth

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Youre writing cryptograms again, and studying tea leaves (or your garbage). Make your coherent point and illuminate it creatively.

tangential points and loose associations. you have no point anyone can divine.

Points are essential for debates, James; optional for poems, paintings, and music. Metaphor and allusion can create senses rather than just make sense. I had a friend in high school who worked hard to write a poem that said nothing, but conveyed an overwhelming sense of despair. It was genius, and left the Principal begging students to write things more positive for the school lit mag ("about butterflies" he suggested).

 

[greenmountaineer]

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
suspended in Malaysian water,
the sun above, abyss beneath,
gorgonian ruff around volcanic reef.

The lacework fronds sway not, or very gently.
I still my breath,
trick fish into mistaking me
for their own kin.

Color sprays vivid as azaleas in spring,
pinks, fuchsias, oranges, and purples.
Delicate tendrils, reaching
deceptively; brittle, not soft.

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
imagining my walk through alleyways,
through gates, 'tween hedges, beneath arches
where silence roams with me.

The clowns and triggers, angelfish, and even sharks
ignore or consider me, curious.
The parrot fish attack the reef, like ticking clocks
their nips echo throughout.

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
go back to lose myself in dreams.
I feel the warm touch of blue water,
its solace easy to get lost in.


(Two people have suggested that last line needs to go... hmmm... inspiration, where the hell are you?)

I finally got to this, mer. Would it be too confusing to the reader if "around" was deleted in the first stanza? Maybe so, but I like the sound of "the sun above, abyss beneath/gorgonian ruff, volcanic reef"

"trick fish into mistaking me/for their own kin." Can you delete "for their own kin" and imply it?

"I float above the Hanging Gardens,
suspended in Malaysian water,
the sun above, abyss beneath,
gorgonian ruff, volcanic reef.

The lacework fronds barely sway. (re Angie's comment)
I still my breath,
trick fish into mistaking me."

The near rhyme of "me" loops back to "reef" and I think adds to the flow of the poem, which re-enforces the image of "floating," at least for me.

I have no trouble with the last stanza, although I agree with Angie about "in."

 

[legerdemer]

I finally got to this, mer. I wondered if it would be too confusing to the reader "around" was deleted in the first stanza; maybe so, but I like of sound of "the sun above, abyss beneath/gorgonian ruff, volcanic reef"

"trick fish into mistaking me/for their own kin." Can you delete "for their own kin" and imply it?

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
suspended in Malaysian water,
the sun above, abyss beneath,
gorgonian ruff, volcanic reef.

The lacework fronds barely sway. (re Angie's comment)
I still my breath,
trick fish into mistaking me.

The near rhyme of "me" loops back to "reef" and I think adds to the flow of the poem, which re-enforces the image of "floating," at least for me.

I have no trouble with the last stanza, although I agree with Angie about "in."

Thanks, greenmountaineer - as of last night, this is what it looks like...

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
suspended in Malaysian water,
the sun above, abyss beneath,
gorgonian ruff around volcanic reef.

Lace fronds sway gently.
I still my breath
and fish mistake me
for their own kin.

Colors vivid as azaleas in spring,
pinks, fuchsias, oranges, and purples.
Delicate tendrils reaching,
deceptively brittle.

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
imagine strolls down alleyways,
through gates and hedges, under arches,
where silence roams with me.

Clowns, triggers, angelfish, and sharks
ignore or consider me, curious.
The parrot fish attack the reef, the ticking
of their nips echoes throughout.

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
return to lose myself in dreams,
the warm touch of blue water
enfolds me with its silent solace.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Points are essential for debates, James; optional for poems, paintings, and music. Metaphor and allusion can create senses rather than just make sense. I had a friend in high school who worked hard to write a poem that said nothing, but conveyed an overwhelming sense of despair. It was genius, and left the Principal begging students to write things more positive for the school lit mag ("about butterflies" he suggested).

Naaah. Poems need points. What you advocate are invitations to hallucinate.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Naaah. Poems need points. What you advocate are invitations to hallucinate.

Poems may be arguments, such as in classical sonnets, but it really isn't necessary that they make a point. Except, of course, to JBJ and other functional-literalists. And what's wrong with hallucinations, James? I find you doing it often enough. In fact, without hallucinations, there'd be no lit on Lit (and maybe anywhere else as well).

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Poems may be arguments, such as in classical sonnets, but it really isn't necessary that they make a point. Except, of course, to JBJ and other functional-literalists. And what's wrong with hallucinations, James? I find you doing it often enough. In fact, without hallucinations, there'd be no lit on Lit (and maybe anywhere else as well).

And you think Bruce Jenner is a real girl.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

And you think Bruce Jenner is a real girl.

I think Bruce Jenner is a real woman in a socio-psycho-juridical sense. Sex and gender are very complex issues, even biologically, except, perhaps, for the simplistic reductionism of Skinnerian, or even neo, behaviorism.

To cut the discussion to its quick, let's go back to hallucinations. Behaviorists think grammar is a hallucination; all that "really" exists are "speech events." The real hallucination belongs to behaviorists, however; for them, "the brain is a simpler organ than the stomach."

Your brand of analysis - yes, James, behaviorism - has been adopted in North American Psychology and Education, with spill-over into Criminology, on faith alone. It is a form of mass hallucination pervading America's misunderstanding of the nature of human thought. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that you think Little Red Riding Hood is a story about a talking wolf.

 

[legerdemer]

I think Bruce Jenner is a real woman in a socio-psycho-juridical sense. Sex and gender are very complex issues, even biologically, except, perhaps, for the simplistic reductionism of Skinnerian, or even neo, behaviorism.

To cut the discussion to its quick, let's go back to hallucinations. Behaviorists think grammar is a hallucination; all that "really" exists are "speech events." The real hallucination belongs to behaviorists, however; for them, "the brain is a simpler organ than the stomach."

Your brand of analysis - yes, James, behaviorism - has been adopted in North American Psychology and Education, with spill-over into Criminology, on faith alone. It is a form of mass hallucination pervading America's misunderstanding of the nature of human thought. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that you think Little Red Riding Hood is a story about a talking wolf.

I so enjoy a good philosophical argument on my poetry thread. Not that I'm that well equipped to contribute, but yes, I am most definitely enjoying myself.

A comment on "the brain is a simpler organ than the stomach": I wonder, if inadvertently, they may be right. After all, we have a whole complex microbiome in our stomachs and colons, whereas the blood-brain barrier keeps out microbes from our brains in all but the sick. Never thought of it in that way... hmmm!

And I am no linguist, but isn't grammar fairly pervasive across cultures and languages? (So long since I've dipped into Chomsky, or any of the ilk.) That doesn't seem like a hallucination to me...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I think Bruce Jenner is a real woman in a socio-psycho-juridical sense. Sex and gender are very complex issues, even biologically, except, perhaps, for the simplistic reductionism of Skinnerian, or even neo, behaviorism.

To cut the discussion to its quick, let's go back to hallucinations. Behaviorists think grammar is a hallucination; all that "really" exists are "speech events." The real hallucination belongs to behaviorists, however; for them, "the brain is a simpler organ than the stomach."

Your brand of analysis - yes, James, behaviorism - has been adopted in North American Psychology and Education, with spill-over into Criminology, on faith alone. It is a form of mass hallucination pervading America's misunderstanding of the nature of human thought. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that you think Little Red Riding Hood is a story about a talking wolf.

Youre daft. Behaviorism was repudiated long ago. B.F.Skinner was a charlatan and Harvard fag. John O'Hara said Harvard, Princeton and Yale are where the best schools transfer their homosexuals. Its true.

I'm a clinical epistemologist and socio-biologist of the Dawkins-E.O.Wilson gang.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I so enjoy a good philosophical argument on my poetry thread. Not that I'm that well equipped to contribute, but yes, I am most definitely enjoying myself.

A comment on "the brain is a simpler organ than the stomach": I wonder, if inadvertently, they may be right. After all, we have a whole complex microbiome in our stomachs and colons, whereas the blood-brain barrier keeps out microbes from our brains in all but the sick. Never thought of it in that way... hmmm!

And I am no linguist, but isn't grammar fairly pervasive across cultures and languages? (So long since I've dipped into Chomsky, or any of the ilk.) That doesn't seem like a hallucination to me...

I enjoy a good leg, and you have at least one. My compliments.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Do this, TIO. ease your hand up Jenners leg and let us know what you find.

 

[legerdemer]

I enjoy a good leg, and you have at least one. My compliments.

Glad I have some redeeming feature for you, JBJ. I'd so hate to be a complete waste of space...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Glad I have some redeeming feature for you, JBJ. I'd so hate to be a complete waste of space...

Youre no waste at all, youre stubborn and defend untenable beliefs.

 

[sr71plt]

Points are essential for debates, James; optional for poems, paintings, and music. Metaphor and allusion can create senses rather than just make sense. I had a friend in high school who worked hard to write a poem that said nothing, but conveyed an overwhelming sense of despair. It was genius, and left the Principal begging students to write things more positive for the school lit mag ("about butterflies" he suggested).

I shy away from poetry that I can't see a point in. But then I prefer poetry that rhymes and/or has a rhythm too--other "poetry" I consider to be prose presented in chopped lines.

Your friend's poem had a point, though. Going for a sense of despair is going for a point.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I shy away from poetry that I can't see a point in. But then I prefer poetry that rhymes and/or has a rhythm too--other "poetry" I consider to be prose presented in chopped lines.

Your friend's poem had a point, though. Going for a sense of despair is going for a point.

Psychotics are prone to act out what you and TIO anoint. They cant articulate any meaning to their deeds so they trust that effects will message the audience. In most cases, as here, the point is I WANTCHA TO BE BORED.

 

[legerdemer]

Youre no waste at all, youre stubborn and defend untenable beliefs.

Couldn't agree more with you on the stubborn. As for untenable beliefs, if true, I'm in good company there. Shall we look in the mirror together?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Couldn't agree more with you on the stubborn. As for untenable beliefs, if true, I'm in good company there. Shall we look in the mirror together?

You confuse me with TIO and ODD TODD.

Never bet against my untenable beliefs.

 

[sr71plt]

Psychotics are prone to act out what you and TIO anoint. They cant articulate any meaning to their deeds so they trust that effects will message the audience. In most cases, as here, the point is I WANTCHA TO BE BORED.

Having a brain fart day, JBJ? My post agreed with you and challenged Tio.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Having a brain fart day, JBJ? My post agreed with you and challenged Tio.

"Farts," Pilot, are a byproduct of digestion; James' brain hasn't been able to digest anything since he left high school.

Sorry, leger, to have left off the philosophical, but it seems whenever I get into a philosophical argument with James, he descends to vacuous name-calling. And then I join him. Oddly, he identifies himself as an epistemologist, something I identify myself as too.

The "stomach"comment refers to the behaviorist view that all we do is conditioned reflex; that there is no mind. James rejects his behaviorism, though it appears in almost every argument he makes. Just underlies my point about the blind acceptance of behaviorism in America. The sociobiologists emerge from the same school, and seem to be of the opinion that if they can see a reproductive advantage to anything, it must be genetic. Sort of behaviorists without conditioning. Unconditioned behaviorists? For both, I think their simplistic explanations are their drawing cards; don't want to stretch anyone's brains too much.

But we've hijacked your thread. Get back to the poetry, and maybe we should start an "irreconcilable argument and name-calling" thread. Perhaps even a whole new forum.

 

[sr71plt]

Back to the discussion, then, you don't agree that the poem of your example had a point to it?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

"Farts," Pilot, are a byproduct of digestion; James' brain hasn't been able to digest anything since he left high school.

Sorry, leger, to have left off the philosophical, but it seems whenever I get into a philosophical argument with James, he descends to vacuous name-calling. And then I join him. Oddly, he identifies himself as an epistemologist, something I identify myself as too.

The "stomach"comment refers to the behaviorist view that all we do is conditioned reflex; that there is no mind. James rejects his behaviorism, though it appears in almost every argument he makes. Just underlies my point about the blind acceptance of behaviorism in America. The sociobiologists emerge from the same school, and seem to be of the opinion that if they can see a reproductive advantage to anything, it must be genetic. Sort of behaviorists without conditioning. Unconditioned behaviorists? For both, I think their simplistic explanations are their drawing cards; don't want to stretch anyone's brains too much.

But we've hijacked your thread. Get back to the poetry, and maybe we should start an "irreconcilable argument and name-calling" thread. Perhaps even a whole new forum.

Reproductive advantage is the name of the game. No other outcome matters.

Years ago I worked at a mental health center where all but me were childless. I had 4 children and now 10 grandchildren. The folks I worked with remain childless 25 years down the road. As I said back then, I AM THE FUTURE OF THE WORLD, YOURE DINOSAURS.