Is a safe word counterproductive for extremely novice submissives?

[fallon2]

No

No, never. There is a reason why there is a safe word. A safe word is the light at the end of the tunnel. The safe word is one reason why people will try something new as being a sub. It is NEVER counter active!

 

[Guest]

I'm definitely a novice sub!

So far, all I've had to do is tell my Master is exactly what I'm feeling. As long as I'm not too uncomfortable, we keep going. I keep the communication lines open so he knows exactly how far to push me. He'll ease up if he thinks that I'm really hurting/uncomfortable in certain instances. I don't plan on using my safe word unless it's unbearable. However I do like the idea of the "red" and "yellow" thing...it would be perfect if I didn't feel like I could express myself adequately. At this point in the relationship, the only thing I find hard to deal with is the online communication...my fingers slip too quickly and I forget to address him correctly and it's damn hard to type with one hand! Thank you for the information on this thread. It will be useful in future relationships!

As yet, unidentified....

 

[MissTaken]

I have had the opportunity to experience new things since my first post.

I would say that a safe word, used haphazardly is counter productive, but needs to exist.

For me, the safe word simply allows for clear communication that can't misunderstood when I am in subspace. When there, it is so easy for me to be taken advantage of as my will isn't my own and communication is difficult at best. Ask me for my credit cards, and they are yours! *winks*

A safe word that is easy to remember will allow me to very simply say "I want or don't want...."

 

[pierced_boy]

Great spread of views and opinion

.

 

[James Blandings]

SpectreT,
The ones that are most commonly referred to are "Red, yellow, green" to indicate the same way as they do in traffic. If your novice subbie is really REALLY enjoying something, a whispered oU+is an excellent communication. If the top is treading over the taboo line or pushing the limits too close to something intolerable physically, that yellow is a good warning so that the scene does not have to be destroyed. Instead, questions can be answered or the minor adjustment for something can be dealt with and the overall direction can be altered a bit and the journey still enjoyed. (Think about a CRAMP that will go away if the physical position is changed or an attack of snot nose or the sudden remembering that this morning's birth control pill was forgotten or...or...or....) The RED is a call for an all out stop regardless of anything else. Scene is over. Period.

Pretty handy. Perfect for the novice, wouldn't you say? Not bad for the old timer either.

(Hey... I think I am starting to sound like I might just know a bit about this stuff, huh?)

You are right, Spectre, a dominant should learn to read their submissive well enough that a safeword would rarely be needed, and with many long term couples, the safeword seems to just disappear with time. But it is better to have one and not use it than to need one and not have it.

 

[cymbidia]

Re: Great spread of views and opinion

All the reading I have done recently talks of
Non verbal safewords/signals of advanced players

Anyone who even relatively new to this stuff, or new to each other, and is going to play with blindfolds and bondage and gags needs to have clear and unambiguous signals set up in place of the words they would normally use.

When one is gagged, she cannot scream out "YELLOW". Therefore, a signal must be agreed on and understood to substitute for that word, and the others, that she might need to use were she not gagged.

I may be off track but would not a sensitve top be doing frequent checkins with a novice bottom, maybe subtle ones the bottom may not recognise?

I think novices, and people that are new to each other at any experience level, need to have safewords at the ready in all cases. I wouldn't consider playing with someone new to me without them.

Additionally, every good Dominant i 've even known has done that check-in thing you speak of almost as a reflex. They ask, "how are you?" "is that too much?" "are you okay?". They come around and look into my face, into my eyes. They feel my butt and check for bruising, for welts, to be sure there's nothing out of the ordinary, nothing unwanted.

For many submissives, when we get into the zone, into our space - and most of us don't go there every time either - but when we do go there, we can't really do a lot of articulation of our condition. Dominants have to, i think, develop ways to check on us that don't rely on us being completely lucid throughout the entirety of the play.

Doing TOO frequent checkins are intrusive to the play, though, and can leave us, the subs, feeling like you don't know what the hell you're doing.

Yeh. I know. Damned if you, damned if you don't. Such is the cross you big rough tough Dom/mes bear, i guess.

Advanced players would be checking in I am assured. Very few play with no safe word?

LOTS of us play without a safe word, H, but only after we know our partners very well.

 

[juicygirl]

Cymbidia, if the safe word disappears is it still play, or something different altogether? I certainly have not reached that point yet, but what you're talking about starts to sound a lot like a form of deep caring, that would really be unavailable for most people even after a long time. I hope I can make it. Very helpful discussion.

 

[pierced_boy]

Juicy Girls amkes a good point

.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Harry: I think that the safeword thing does tend to disappear, at least in practice, in long term D/s relationships. With any partner, once you know them really well, you can largely anticipate their responses. When you know what they like, what they fear, when they bliss out, even at what precise moments before orgasm they forget to breathe, such things become formality, easily discarded.

Some people seem to suggest that not having a safeword is a barometer of trust, the depth of the relationship. I couldn't disagree more.

We have a safeword...actually, we usually use the Yellow/Red thing that is so common, such a good shorthand.

In eight years, I think it's been actually invoked twice.

In terms of my own feeling of safety, and the freedom to push my own and my husband's limits, having safewords/signals is the important thing. Using it is an entirely different question.

 

[KestralWolfe]

To WD

It is in no way counterproductive to agree on safewords, give the bottom info for safecalls, or any of the other things that make our play, our life (some of us) ssc, and fullfilling. Look at it this way (as I was lectured when I was brand new to D/s) Would you, say, not give a baby the option of crawling before (s)he walked? Or not allowing them to walk before they ran? Would you not give the tightrope-walker a net to fall into if they stumble?

Any of our safety protocals *can* be thrown out in the case of Top/bottom that know, trust, and have played many times before. They *can't* be in the case of the new submissive. It worries me when people suggest things of this nature. A safeword is the new submissive's safety net.

As long as you explain the safeword to the submissive, and they understand it is not a frivolous thing, it should be used.

An example of what I use:

Green=All is well, proceed
Yellow=I am frightened/slow down/I need time to adjust
Red=Stop! Stop now, something is very wrong/I cannot handle
stretching this limit now/I am having flashbacks of abuse

*If I am with my little one in a public play space, and she needs to stop, and doesn't want to embarass herself or me, my little one knows to say*:

Red.
*action stop*
Ma'am, may (slavename) have a private moment with you?

Then we discuss what she is uncomfortable with, and how we will get over it. I am not laying this down as *what you must do* but as an example for those who are new.

I will now stop rambling.

Kestral

 

[pierced_boy]

Disagree Risia

.

 

[juicygirl]

But about what pierced boy?

 

[RisiaSkye]

Color me mystified

Hmm...apparently, I've been disagreed with, but I now cannot find out about what. Does anyone else really hate when people go back and delete their posts?

Come on, Harry, 'fess up. What's the issue? Discussion is key, right? So, why delete your response?

 

[cymbidia]

Harry has deleted his responses in bunch of posts on at least two threads.

Why?

 

[porphry]

RE: safewords

Always have a safe word or signal. No one says you have to use them. Just have them.

 

[juicygirl]

Deleting posts is bizarre behaviour indeed. Hope Harry didn't get into any trouble.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Safe words are PRODUCTIVE..their mere existance produces a measure of emotional safety. It would be counterproductive to disallow the emotional comfort a submissive may need to hold in the mind that they still retain a semblance of control of their own physical safety.
Over time in a long term relationship safe words do seem to disappear naturally but they should still remain an undisputed right no matter if the relationship is in its first day or its 10th year.

 

[DustyWolfe]

Harry has deleted his responses in bunch of posts on at least two threads.

Why?

I just saw this post. I hope Harry doesn't mind me saying, but he felt like his words were misunderstood, and therefore deleted them. Hope he comes back soon.

Harry, if you read this, please come back soon. I miss you.

 

[willfulbrat]

I just saw this post. I hope Harry doesn't mind me saying, but he felt like his words were misunderstood, and therefore deleted them. Hope he comes back soon.

Harry, if you read this, please come back soon. I miss you.

Oops, the above was posted by me, willfulbrat. Dusty's been visiting and I forgot to logout.

 

[pierced_boy]

wilfulbrat

How are things with you? Thankyou for the post urging me to come back. I don't really have much to say though and so will only post when I feel really confident about a subject. As my life evolves many of the threads here have less and less meaning and I find my own wisdom and way.

I hope you find the same degree of satifaction and growth.

Feel free to PM me any time. I will always reply.

love

Harry

 

[Pure]

Productive or Counterproductive (for novices)

The 'safe word', understood as a 'traffic signal', with green yellow and red being directions to proceed, slow down or stop is not exactly 'counterproductive' but the person using it would do well to realize they are 'playing' at dom/me, not sub; to tell another do this, and more of this and less of that, for my pleasure, is the dom/me's procedure. (And the alleged dom/me, is, of course, involved in subbing.)

If a person keeps control of an encounter, they are dominating.

The resort to 'word magic' stems of course from safety concerns which are valid, especially with strangers. Strangers and acquaintances need to be assessed, friends kept informed as to one's location. To expect a word (to the stranger) to do that is unwise; not unlike a woman, who meets a man in a bar, and says 'come home with me; but promise that if I say 'red', as we get into sex, you won't go any further.' Right!

So word schemes do not really do much for safety, as compared with the necessary assessments of a partner/person.

If you've found a safe, non psycho partner, how do you keep from injury? This isn't a pecularity of bdsm. There are 'signals', whether pre-agreed or not. A bdsm 'scene' is really no different (in this respect) than if a woman giving oral sex starts seriously to choke, and shows it. The non abusive partner will stop.

My opinion is that two words, or better, _indicators_, will do (such as a particular motion of the head): one meaning,
"My suffering or fear is getting to an extreme." The other meaning, "I believe there's a medical emergency and fear for my life." Neither of these, however, is a direction (unless issued by a dom/me). The sub *informs* the dom/me, and s/he, being sane, and even caring, will act as any such partner will do, upon learning of such a situation.

Once the sub has determined her safety with the dom/me, she simply has a duty to inform. But suppose the dom/me is going to go off the deep end, 'wig out', start to make a frenzied assault, etc. ? Well, the pre-arranged system, the yelling of 'red' isn't likely to do much good.

 

[cymbidia]

I agree with you, Pure, sorta.

I agree that if and when the sub uses safewords, particularly that approximating "slow down cuz it's getting too intense for me" (aka "yellow" for many of us), she's controlling the whole play. It's - not good for the sub to control the play, at least after a trust relationship has been established.

Therein lies my point.

AFTER people are well into a trust relationship, as time goes on, most subs voluntarily give up more and more of thier control over the use of safe words because we really don't want the control. We want to be controlled. We want to be pushed. We want to feel more than we thought we would, be stretched further than we thought we'd go. We crave being controlled - and we cannot get it if we are the ones controlling the play.

BEFORE we have built a deeply meaningful trust relationship with our partner, though, and while we're in the process, we absolutely must feel safe in order for trust to continue to grow. Until we know that our partner won't hurt us in a bad pain way, either through inattention or lack of skill or intentionally or whatever, then we need the safety loophole that safewords provide.

The timing of when we give back the safewords will vary, of course, from person to person, from relationship to relationship, through time. It will always be different for all of us.

I think most of us, though, crave the ultimate sensory high of trusting our partner so deeply that we deliver ourselves into his hands unadorned by the weight of our control of his actions.

I know i do.

 

[Skally]

I think it comes down to knowing your Dom/me or sub.

As Cym has said in on one of the other threads, communication is one of the most important things in any relationship, especially so in a D/s relationship.

I think it's important to establish a good understanding of each other before going into a session - that way it becomes easier to read each other when it comes to signals (and these can be misinterpreted easily).

I do think that safe words are important but I can see they might be misused. I would rather play with a safe word than without one.

 

[hollowkatt]

use of safe word

I was curious if any one would bring up the point of multiple safe words. I and my sub have multiple signals for how far is too far. Even after being together for six years as a couple you still can't always read signals exactly correctly. As far as ungaged safe words go we have one for green light ie: your not going far enough, please push me farther, one for yellow light: I'm not sure how much more I can take, please slow down. And one for red light: Stop now, I either hurt way past the point of pleasure, or I am about to totally lose it. This way espically in new people it allows the Dom/me to get more of a feel of the sub. And it lets the sub express more of a range than I'm ok and stop. As always in this lifestyle though, this is only what works for us. Take what you like leave what you don't.

Mistress Aubrianna

 

[cymbidia]

Green, Yellow, Red: Don't leave home without 'em!

These are the standards for a reason: they work. You cannot get them confused with any other words. No one is going to scream RED! Fucking RED RED RED RED! by accident, either.