Is anybody interested in listening to points of view different from one's own?

[HisArpy]

https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/party-platform/

That's the DNC party platform, not Harris' OFFICIAL policy.

 

[jaF0]

75% is probably high.

And without a sufficient margin in the House and Senate, 50% may be high.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

That's the DNC party platform, not Harris' OFFICIAL policy.

Kamala Harris is the Democratic candidate for President, and she’s echoed these positions in her speeches, explicitly calling out her support for Israel and her intent to push for the reinstatement of national abortion rights for women.

 

[John_von_Neumann]

Assuming OP is sincere, Lit's Politics Board isn't an ordinary political forum. He's walked into a discussion forum that's weighted by a couple decades of history. Most of the action is happening among a relatively small group of posters who, sometimes over many accounts, have become very acquainted with each other. And who also have long memories for offenses of varying degrees of severity.

 

[MajorRewrite]

I do listen to opposing points of view.

Sometimes those points of view include conspiracy lunacy or enraged ridiculousness, which is always amusing.

 

[SimonDoom]

I read your posts and consider the content when replying. You align with the political left and your posts indicate that you, while more thoughtful because you attempt to clandestinely convey that you're "above it all" even though it's obvious that you're not when your posts are dissected, have many of the same end goals embraced by the moderate political left. For you, the ideals of the political right are shunned. Not because the ideals are bad, but because those ideals belong to "those people" and therefore cannot be trusted. Which is a slap in the face to your own neighbors and friends.

The needle doesn't move here because this forum, like many, is infested with trolls whose only purpose is to make themselves feel powerful. Laurel refuses to delouse her own creation and that gives the trolls the belief they have power. Of those who actually come here to learn and discuss current events and issues, I have seen several change their opinions. Admittedly I'm one of them who changed for what I believe to be the positive. I've also seen members go full rabid fuckwit in the opposite direction.

I don't "instantly brand" people. I do, however, find that particular trait more prevalent in those who espouse the Leftist viewpoint. One need only review the replies to my posts to see the truth in that.

I don't align with the left. I challenge you to find a post in which I espoused "left-wing" views.

I'm anti-Trump, which causes his cult-like supporters instantly to brand me as a leftist, but that's absurd. I dislike Trump because he's an idiot, a liar, a criminal, and a con man, and because on January 6 he abandoned his constitutional duty by trying to bully Mike Pence into overturning the election results. Both of his former national security advisers, McMaster and Bolton (neither of whom is remotely leftist) testify to his erratic views and behavior and his unfitness. These are not political views; I would equally condemn any candidate of any political stripe who had these qualities. I'm a registered independent with what could best be described as "classical liberal" views -- the views embodied in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

 

[HisArpy]

Kamala Harris is the Democratic candidate for President, and she’s echoed these positions in her speeches, explicitly calling out her support for Israel and her intent to push for the reinstatement of national abortion rights for women.

What she says in her speeches is either nonsense, or she's ripping off the policy ideas of her opponent.

Her OFFICIAL POLICY page is EMPTY.

Swallow that and try not to choke on it.

 

[HisArpy]

I don't align with the left. I challenge you to find a post in which I espoused "left-wing" views.

I'm anti-Trump, which causes his cult-like supporters instantly to brand me as a leftist, but that's absurd. I dislike Trump because he's an idiot, a liar, a criminal, and a con man, and because on January 6 he abandoned his constitutional duty by trying to bully Mike Pence into overturning the election results. Both of his former national security advisers, McMaster and Bolton (neither of whom is remotely leftist) testify to his erratic views and behavior and his unfitness. These are not political views; I would equally condemn any candidate of any political stripe who had these qualities. I'm a registered independent with what could best be described as "classical liberal" views -- the views embodied in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

These are ALL Leftist talking points. The same rancor, the same words, the same lack of rational, the same hate.

You want to show me that you're not a leftist? Speak truly about Trump and his achievements when he was President. Speak truly about the constant lawfare against the policies he tried to do when in office. Speak truly about which party engages in lawlessness as a matter of course. And speak truly about which party stokes violence as a tactic against the people.

Pick one and speak the truth.

 

[adrina]

So if you criticize Trump you can't be conservative.

 

[SimonDoom]

Assuming OP is sincere, Lit's Politics Board isn't an ordinary political forum. He's walked into a discussion forum that's weighted by a couple decades of history. Most of the action is happening among a relatively small group of posters who, sometimes over many accounts, have become very acquainted with each other. And who also have long memories for offenses of varying degrees of severity.

I'm being sincere. I don't participate here that often, so I'm not as familiar with the landscape as some, but on the few occasions when I've posted I haven't seen much room for legitimate discussion. I feel like I've made some efforts to be open-minded, but it's rarely reciprocated.

I spend most of my time at the Author's Hangout, and I've always thought that the politics of erotica and sexuality are interesting, but there's nothing interesting about the Harris and Trump camps going at one another with name calling, memes, and the same old cliches and dug-in positions. Boring.

 

[Rightguide]

I’m not playing your sea lion game.

Why not? You've always been a trained seal for the left.

 

[SimonDoom]

So if you criticize Trump you can't be conservative.

To a Trump cultist, you can't. If you claim to be a Republican and criticize him you're a RINO. It's nuts.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Why not? You've always been a trained seal for the left.

How so? I think you don’t know the difference between a “trained seal” and a sea lion.

 

[MiaBabe23]

I’ve only glanced at the responses above, admittedly, but too many of the responses on here are proving Simon’s point - what about disagreeing peaceably, about genuinely understanding each other’s pov?
Personally, I love understanding why people believe as they do, especially when they hold different values.
I’ve managed to enjoy such discussions with people I’ve met on Lit through other motives - * cough * - but it’s relatively rare on PB
I disagreed this morning with one of the guys above who is now bemoaning the idea we’re not civil enough; he implied I’m racist against people of my own race and an idiot
We could rip on each other in a more pleasant way, but there’s too much anger. And most of it comes from one side in my experience

 

[Pad_Foot]

Welcome Mr. Doom.
There are those of us who fear Monsewer 'rump as the coming of DOOM
How one can read there 2025 Manifesto and not feel that way is inconceivable?
His cult seems to "believe" him when he says he has nothing to do with all of that, despite PRAYING that all of it comes to pass.
As to why they are a cult? He's told them not to believe their eyes and they agree that he is all they need to believe.

 

[Pad_Foot]

I’ve only glanced, admittedly, but too many of the responses on here are proving Simon’s point - what about disagreeing peaceably, about genuinely understanding each other’s pov?
Personally, I love understanding why people believe as they do, especially when they hold different values.
I’ve managed to enjoy such discussions with people I’ve met on Lit through other motives - * cough * - but it’s relatively rare on PB
I disagreed this morning with one of the guys above who is now bemoaning the idea we’re not civil enough; he implied I’m racist against people of my own race and an idiot
We could rip on each other in a more pleasant way, but there’s too much anger. And most of it comes from one side in my experience

I'd answer but for some reason I can't even see this post, and I'm certainly not ignoring you!

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

What she says in her speeches is either nonsense, or she's ripping off the policy ideas of her opponent.

Her OFFICIAL POLICY page is EMPTY.

Swallow that and try not to choke on it.

This is classic sea-lioning—repeatedly asking for evidence and when it’s provided, dismissing it, and asking again.

This is why we don’t have real debates on the Politics Board. The Trump supporters here are incapable of carrying on a discussion in good faith.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

 

[HisArpy]

This is classic sea-lioning—repeatedly asking for evidence and when it’s provided, dismissing it, and asking again.

This is why we don’t have real debates on the Politics Board. The Trump supporters here are incapable of carrying on a discussion in good faith.

You didn't actually supply any evidence. Instead you deflected to something else - the DNC party platform - instead of producing evidence of what Kamala's policies for America are.

Like a Toyota and a Honda, they are similar, but not the same thing.

 

[SimonDoom]

I’ve only glanced at the responses above, admittedly, but too many of the responses on here are proving Simon’s point - what about disagreeing peaceably, about genuinely understanding each other’s pov?
Personally, I love understanding why people believe as they do, especially when they hold different values.
I’ve managed to enjoy such discussions with people I’ve met on Lit through other motives - * cough * - but it’s relatively rare on PB
I disagreed this morning with one of the guys above who is now bemoaning the idea we’re not civil enough; he implied I’m racist against people of my own race and an idiot
We could rip on each other in a more pleasant way, but there’s too much anger. And most of it comes from one side in my experience

I love a good debate, and I've enjoyed participating in debates of all different types with people of all different stripes. In my decades-long experience, conservatives and libertarians have generally been more willing to engage in political debate in good faith and in a civil manner than those who are left of center. I was in college and graduate school in the 1980s, surrounded by people who were intelligent and well-educated. Almost everybody was left of center, and I observed very little interest by them in engaging with views they disagreed with. It's not true of everyone, of course, but it was a tendency. But it's no longer true with the rise of Trump and MAGA-ism. Attempting to engage with that group usually engenders replies that consist of conspiracy thinking and whataboutism and no willingness to concede that Trump is wrong about anything. I've never seen anything like it, and I've been following politics since the 1970s.

 

[STrent]

I’ve only glanced at the responses above, admittedly, but too many of the responses on here are proving Simon’s point - what about disagreeing peaceably, about genuinely understanding each other’s pov?
Personally, I love understanding why people believe as they do, especially when they hold different values.
I’ve managed to enjoy such discussions with people I’ve met on Lit through other motives - * cough * - but it’s relatively rare on PB
I disagreed this morning with one of the guys above who is now bemoaning the idea we’re not civil enough; he implied I’m racist against people of my own race and an idiot
We could rip on each other in a more pleasant way, but there’s too much anger. And most of it comes from one side in my experience

Nah, sorry, but you can’t have a good faith discussion with genocide deniers and colonial minded simpletons who think bombing entire cities to nothing, withholding food, aid and now polio vaccines is justified, in the name of “self defence” which has been proven in an international court to be a spurious argument that thinly shields genocidal intent.

There’s a point where a different point of view isn’t an acceptable point of view, and I reached my limit on this forum about 20,000 dead Palestinians ago (it’s now 40,000).

By all means try it with Trump/Kamala but no, there’s opposite points of view you can disagree with, and some which are just not acceptable in the 21st Century.

Fuck accepting that.

 

[MiaBabe23]

Nah, sorry, but you can’t have a good faith discussion with genocide deniers and colonial minded simpletons who think bombing entire cities to nothing, withholding food, aid and now polio vaccines is justified, in the name of “self defence” which has been proven in an international court to be a spurious argument that thinly shields genocidal intent.

There’s a point where a different point of view isn’t an acceptable point of view, and I reached my limit on this forum about 20,000 dead Palestinians ago (it’s now 40,000).

By all means try it with Trump/Kamala but no, there’s opposite points of view you can disagree with, and some which are just not acceptable in the 21st Century.

Fuck accepting that.

So first of all - I wasn’t accepting anything of the kind. What a ridiculous thing to suggest from me saying I want to understand why people think as they do

Secondly - I see people here say some really nasty shit on here, absolutely foul, sometimes horrific. I don’t think many of them actually believe it in the way they say it. There are trolls, angry people, people using hyperbole to get noticed or because they lost the argument
And of course they get needlessly personal, even with people who broadly agree with them - as you did there

And then those of us who, like you, can’t stand those injustices, see nasty shit and begin expecting everything that certain people say is going to be vile
Yet two people on PB who seemed to be utter MAGAt assholes, I’ve seen speak in favor of fairer treatment for disadvantaged people

Nobody is unreachable in my view, and it’s a minuscule proportion who are genuinely bad

 

[MiaBabe23]

I love a good debate, and I've enjoyed participating in debates of all different types with people of all different stripes. In my decades-long experience, conservatives and libertarians have generally been more willing to engage in political debate in good faith and in a civil manner than those who are left of center. I was in college and graduate school in the 1980s, surrounded by people who were intelligent and well-educated. Almost everybody was left of center, and I observed very little interest by them in engaging with views they disagreed with. It's not true of everyone, of course, but it was a tendency. But it's no longer true with the rise of Trump and MAGA-ism. Attempting to engage with that group usually engenders replies that consist of conspiracy thinking and whataboutism and no willingness to concede that Trump is wrong about anything. I've never seen anything like it, and I've been following politics since the 1970s.

I’m left of center, perhaps quite strongly so on certain issues, so it’s interesting to hear that - my experience has been the opposite
Actually I find people across the spectrum are willing to discuss it. But those unswervingly loyal to Trump are the most difficult to get a calm discussion with
My most bizarre and enlightening experience was a discussion with a seething flag waving frx protestor about why he was there. He calmed down, admitted eventually he wasn’t entirely sure of his views, suggested going for a drink

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Nah, sorry, but you can’t have a good faith discussion with genocide deniers and colonial minded simpletons who think bombing entire cities to nothing, withholding food, aid and now polio vaccines is justified, in the name of “self defence” which has been proven in an international court to be a spurious argument that thinly shields genocidal intent.

There’s a point where a different point of view isn’t an acceptable point of view, and I reached my limit on this forum about 20,000 dead Palestinians ago (it’s now 40,000).

By all means try it with Trump/Kamala but no, there’s opposite points of view you can disagree with, and some which are just not acceptable in the 21st Century.

Fuck accepting that.

Israel is not committing genocide in Gaza. They just delivered 1.6 million polio vaccines there. No cities have been bombed "to nothing". Hamas is refusing to negotiate the release of the remaining hostages, who have been held now for almost a year.

Meanwhile, Lebanon is launching rockets at northern Israel that killed 12 children playing soccer and forced the evacuation of thousands of Israeli civilians.

 

[STrent]

Israel is not committing genocide in Gaza. They just delivered 1.6 million polio vaccines there. No cities have been bombed "to nothing". Hamas is refusing to negotiate the release of the remaining hostages, who have been held now for almost a year.

Meanwhile, Lebanon is launching rockets at northern Israel that killed 12 children playing soccer and forced the evacuation of thousands of Israeli civilians.

You are still, literally, a ghoul spouting genocide denying propaganda on behalf of the Zionist state of Israel.

Despite every UN agency, every charity, most of the United Nations, the US State department, the IDF, Shin Bet and the Israeli Government itself acknowledging the level of damage that has been levelled on Gaza, you are still spouting rhetoric that is at odds with the facts on the ground.

Unbelievable how you are still doing this shit. Shame on you. An absolute stain on humanity.

So first of all - I wasn’t accepting anything of the kind. What a ridiculous thing to suggest from me saying I want to understand why people think as they do

Secondly - I see people here say some really nasty shit on here, absolutely foul, sometimes horrific. I don’t think many of them actually believe it in the way they say it. There are trolls, angry people, people using hyperbole to get noticed or because they lost the argument
And of course they get needlessly personal, even with people who broadly agree with them - as you did there

And then those of us who, like you, can’t stand those injustices, see nasty shit and begin expecting everything that certain people say is going to be vile
Yet two people on PB who seemed to be utter MAGAt assholes, I’ve seen speak in favor of fairer treatment for disadvantaged people

Nobody is unreachable in my view, and it’s a minuscule proportion who are genuinely bad

See above proving my point.

There are definitely some you can’t reach, can’t have a good faith discussion with, doesn’t matter how much evidence there is, photographic, video, or otherwise, doesn’t matter if its 99% of the rest of the planet on one side and the 1% is literally obviously wrong, you will still get someone like BrightShinyGirl popping up spewing literal propaganda and lies.

People wonder how extremism develops, some of it is down to a lack of good faith discussions where evidence is used, citations, proper academic standards and not just ideological lying.

The reason the Trump/Leftist stuff gets heated is because you can’t have a good faith discussion with trump supporters. They don’t exist. They’re supporting a repeat offender felon, that for me is the end of it.