Is it abuse or just BDSM?

[Ms_Lilith]

My ex-fiance was abusive. He took my virginity through rape, he refused to have sex with me unless I was shaved, but expected sex every time we saw each other. He tried to alienate me from my best friend, he was jealous of my male friends, he made me feel like no one would ever want me again (and I believed it, which is why we were together so long), he wanted me to give up school so I could stay at home and raise children for him... he was irrational, and dysfunctional and just...


I shake my head when I look back at it, and have to wonder why I stayed so long... but I know the reasons.. and while I'm thankful that I'm no longer with him, he did teach me a great deal about the world, and how things ought not to be.

 

[FurryFury]

My ex-fiance was abusive. He took my virginity through rape, he refused to have sex with me unless I was shaved, but expected sex every time we saw each other. He tried to alienate me from my best friend, he was jealous of my male friends, he made me feel like no one would ever want me again (and I believed it, which is why we were together so long), he wanted me to give up school so I could stay at home and raise children for him... he was irrational, and dysfunctional and just...


I shake my head when I look back at it, and have to wonder why I stayed so long... but I know the reasons.. and while I'm thankful that I'm no longer with him, he did teach me a great deal about the world, and how things ought not to be.

Hi Ms.Lilith,

*hugs tight*

I know just how you feel. *nods*

That's how I lost my virginity too.

For anyone who has actually been abused and into BDSM, the differences are pretty clear.

One is nonconsensual in every meaning of that term, yes, even if part of us enjoyed and found a way to rationalize it into "okay land." Even if we stayed with the SOB. In BDSM we give ourselves freely to someone we TRUST.

These are big, important and very clear differences, I'd say.

Fury

 

[rgraham666]

Interesting thread.

I'm not into the lifestyle, yet. But I've written one story about the subject and am currently working on another.

I could not make the first story work. I tried for a month and simply could not get into the head space of my characters. Until I made an actual bond of affection between them. Once that happened, everything else fell into place.

So my opinion is that it is affection, an actual caring for the other person that separates BDSM from abuse.

An abuser is acting out of selfish motives. If they do something abusive, that action is for their benefit.

A Master or Mistress is acting on behalf of their sub. The dominant is doing what they do because they're concerned with the happiness and well being of their partner.

An abuser will lie and say, 'It's for your own good.' In a true D/s relationship, that statement isn't a lie.

Just my $.02.

 

[Marquis]

An abuser is acting out of selfish motives. If they do something abusive, that action is for their benefit.

A Master or Mistress is acting on behalf of their sub. The dominant is doing what they do because they're concerned with the happiness and well being of their partner.

Uh oh.

 

[rgraham666]

Uh oh.

So desu ka?

Have I said something wrong? If so, please enlighten me.

 

[Marquis]

So desu ka?

Have I said something wrong? If so, please enlighten me.

Self deprecating humor, pay no mind.

 

[rgraham666]

Self deprecating humor, pay no mind.

Ah. New here. So I don't know people well enough to tell when they're joking.

Sumimasen.

 

[Marquis]

Nihongo ga dekimasu ka?

 

[Kajira Callista]

An abuser is acting out of selfish motives. If they do something abusive, that action is for their benefit.

A Master or Mistress is acting on behalf of their sub. The dominant is doing what they do because they're concerned with the happiness and well being of their partner.

I dont agree with those two things. I would curl up in a corner and wanna be dead if i thought a dominant was doing things "for me" and....i wouldnt like it much if a dominant wasnt being selfish and taking whatever they wanted however they pleased. But then again...i'm a little weird

 

[Kajira Callista]

Nihongo ga dekimasu ka?

lol i think you need a spellchecker. i cant read that.

 

[DVS]

I dont agree with those two things. I would curl up in a corner and wanna be dead if i thought a dominant was doing things "for me" and....i wouldnt like it much if a dominant wasnt being selfish and taking whatever they wanted however they pleased. But then again...i'm a little weird

But, you're sexy.

 

[Kajira Callista]

But, you're sexy.

am not

 

[rgraham666]

Nihongo ga dekimasu ka?

Nope. Used up all my Japanese.

Kajira? I'm going to have to think about that for a while. I'm not sure how to respond.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Nope. Used up all my Japanese.

Kajira? I'm going to have to think about that for a while. I'm not sure how to respond.

*sigh* i scared another one off.

 

[rgraham666]

Put your mind at rest. I've seen far more frightening things than you.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Put your mind at rest. I've seen far more frightening things than you.

hmmm ok.

 

[DVS]

Interesting thread.

I'm not into the lifestyle, yet. But I've written one story about the subject and am currently working on another.

I could not make the first story work. I tried for a month and simply could not get into the head space of my characters. Until I made an actual bond of affection between them. Once that happened, everything else fell into place.

So my opinion is that it is affection, an actual caring for the other person that separates BDSM from abuse.

An abuser is acting out of selfish motives. If they do something abusive, that action is for their benefit.

A Master or Mistress is acting on behalf of their sub. The dominant is doing what they do because they're concerned with the happiness and well being of their partner.

An abuser will lie and say, 'It's for your own good.' In a true D/s relationship, that statement isn't a lie.

Just my $.02.

I think there are things BDSM has in common with an abuser. We can be abusive, but in a way that's wanted. BDSM is sex with an edge. Abuse goes beyond the edge, because it's required to keep the "victim" in control.

BDSM sometimes goes right up to that edge, but doesn't cross over without some form of permission from all participating partners. That's one big difference, I think. There are BDSM couples who do things that would be seen as abuse by other couples. But, as long as there are consenting participants enjoying it, there's no abuse.

It's when that non-consent comes in where only one participant is controlling everything and going over the edge without the other participant's wishes or permission...that's the abuse.

 

[catalina_francisco]

So my opinion is that it is affection, an actual caring for the other person that separates BDSM from abuse.

An abuser is acting out of selfish motives. If they do something abusive, that action is for their benefit.

A Master or Mistress is acting on behalf of their sub. The dominant is doing what they do because they're concerned with the happiness and well being of their partner.

An abuser will lie and say, 'It's for your own good.' In a true D/s relationship, that statement isn't a lie.

Just my $.02.

I have to agree with you....despite those who will say it is for the Dominant's pleasure only. IME, and from reading the posts of the many here and elsewhere for years, I have yet to see a submissive who is not getting something from the exchange. That something is often that the way things are played is the Dominant does as they want, takes what they need, with little to no regard for what the submissive appears to need to an outsider.....but the twist is that is what that submissive wants and enjoys.....as KC has demonstrated. So yes, it is for the good of the submissive.

While the obvious aim is not to cater to the whims of the submissive, the result in doing that is that it fulfils that need in the submissive to be treated that way. Happily I am one who enjoys such an exchange and have come to accept it is fulfilling my needs as well as his, otherwise what would be the point in being in the relationship if it was going to make me miserable 24/7 and that was where the buck stopped? For me, going places emotionally, psychologically and physically which may or may not make me go to darker spaces far from the fairy tale hearts and flowers type castle is what in turn brings me pleasure both in simply enjoying that feeling of deprivation, pain, torture, challenge for what it is and for the pleasure it gives him and the needs it fulfils in him. Even for those who submit to fulfil every desire of their Dominant, there is pleasure and fulfillment to be had from so doing. Altruism always has its own reward. , even if it may seem weird and perverse to some.

Catalina

 

[mysteryinc]

It is making my head spin trying the define exactly what makes a behaviour abusive. The clear answer is nonconsent. But this is complicated when communication between partners is not adequate, as is often the case. The communication barriers between sexes are wide. Sometimes, things can be misinterpreted by anyone. I say one thing, another is heard. Many people (myself included) are not very intuitive or perceptive.

I have never been in a physically abusive relationship though have been involved in too many bad relationships, where I have been completely incompatible with my partner. A lot of people have posted about "silent treatment" or coldness being a form of abuse. Well, I confess that I resort to such behaviour when I am depressed but I don't mean to personally hurt anyone by it. I am sitting here freaking out that I am abusive person. I think motive must be a factor. Or at least selfishness. I guess what I am asking is - if an abuser does not know he/she is abusing, is he/she at fault?.

 

[DVS]

I have to agree with you....despite those who will say it is for the Dominant's pleasure only. IME, and from reading the posts of the many here and elsewhere for years, I have yet to see a submissive who is not getting something from the exchange. That something is often that the way things are played is the Dominant does as they want, takes what they need, with little to no regard for what the submissive appears to need to an outsider.....but the twist is that is what that submissive wants and enjoys.....as KC has demonstrated. So yes, it is for the good of the submissive.

While the obvious aim is not to cater to the whims of the submissive, the result in doing that is that it fulfils that need in the submissive to be treated that way. Happily I am one who enjoys such an exchange and have come to accept it is fulfilling my needs as well as his, otherwise what would be the point in being in the relationship if it was going to make me miserable 24/7 and that was where the buck stopped? For me, going places emotionally, psychologically and physically which may or may not make me go to darker spaces far from the fairy tale hearts and flowers type castle is what in turn brings me pleasure both in simply enjoying that feeling of deprivation, pain, torture, challenge for what it is and for the pleasure it gives him and the needs it fulfils in him. Even for those who submit to fulfil every desire of their Dominant, there is pleasure and fulfillment to be had from so doing. Altruism always has its own reward. , even if it may seem weird and perverse to some.

Catalina

I've always known that although it is seen as the Dom using the sub for his pleasure, without reguard for hers, that's not the case. And, although I say that, there is a sliding scale with votes on both ends of that scale.

Mostly, it is the sub who is ultimately in charge, saying what she will and will not allow (her limits) the Dom to do. The sub and Dom communicate before hand and negociate what soft limits might be pushable, etc., and what is totaly taboo, etc. Then, it is up to the Dom to hold to those negociated points and do his thing.

In my opinion, the sub likes to have it appear that she has no control over what the Dom is doing, and the Dom likes that appearence, too. There are some who like the fear factor and will not make many rules up front and there are some who MUST make strict rules up front.

Some like it rough, but controlled. Some like it rough, and only loosely controlled. But, I guess when comparing it to abuse, BDSM is (or should be) always a communication between the partners so everybody is getting what they want. If one partner is controlling the relationship, and that is not something the sub enjoys, that's abuse.

One thing that bothers me a little about the Dom controlling the relationship, totally. Some submissives like that, I know. But, I also know an abuse raltionship is difficult to break free from. I would think the abusive controller who totally controls his victim would have very strong control over a sub who enjoys the 24/7 control of a Dom.

Even though she might sometimes see it as abuse, there are surely times when she enjoys what he does. Abuse seems like such a difficult thing to understand, in that kind of relationship. And, once she does decide it's abuse, how does she break free? It takes such strong feelings that seem against her normal personality. It also seems scary to be in such a situation.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I've always known that although it is seen as the Dom using the sub for his pleasure, without reguard for hers, that's not the case. And, although I say that, there is a sliding scale with votes on both ends of that scale.

Mostly, it is the sub who is ultimately in charge, saying what she will and will not allow (her limits) the Dom to do. The sub and Dom communicate before hand and negociate what soft limits might be pushable, etc., and what is totaly taboo, etc. Then, it is up to the Dom to hold to those negociated points and do his thing.

In my opinion, the sub likes to have it appear that she has no control over what the Dom is doing, and the Dom likes that appearence, too. There are some who like the fear factor and will not make many rules up front and there are some who MUST make strict rules up front.

Some like it rough, but controlled. Some like it rough, and only loosely controlled. But, I guess when comparing it to abuse, BDSM is (or should be) always a communication between the partners so everybody is getting what they want. If one partner is controlling the relationship, and that is not something the sub enjoys, that's abuse.

One thing that bothers me a little about the Dom controlling the relationship, totally. Some submissives like that, I know. But, I also know an abuse raltionship is difficult to break free from. I would think the abusive controller who totally controls his victim would have very strong control over a sub who enjoys the 24/7 control of a Dom.

Even though she might sometimes see it as abuse, there are surely times when she enjoys what he does. Abuse seems like such a difficult thing to understand, in that kind of relationship. And, once she does decide it's abuse, how does she break free? It takes such strong feelings that seem against her normal personality. It also seems scary to be in such a situation.

I started a thread a while back trying to figure out if i was the only submissive that has gotten into exactly the situation you described above. apparently no one else has even though im pretty sure it is a common thing and the reason being the control. the control of a Dominant and the control of an abuser are almost identical, the only difference i see is a submissive saying its ok to do when its a Dominant and being totally confused when she makes a mistake in her choice and it is an abuser.

 

[DVS]

I started a thread a while back trying to figure out if i was the only submissive that has gotten into exactly the situation you described above. apparently no one else has even though im pretty sure it is a common thing and the reason being the control. the control of a Dominant and the control of an abuser are almost identical, the only difference i see is a submissive saying its ok to do when its a Dominant and being totally confused when she makes a mistake in her choice and it is an abuser.

I understand how it can be very difficult to figure out, and quite scary at times. I would also think, in the case of a new submissive, who has little, if any experience in how she should be treated by a Dom, could also fall into this situation very easily. She might not know if she enjoys the 24/7 control, but is still learning what she does enjoy. She could end up with an abuser, not knowing any differently.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm glad I'm on the Dom side of this BDSM thing. It's safer over here.

 

[FurryFury]

<snip> I guess what I am asking is - if an abuser does not know he/she is abusing, is he/she at fault?.

Sorry Mysteryinc,

I would have to say yes he or she is at fault even if s/he don't realize they are doing it. Ignorance is not an excuse. It doesn't make it hurt any less and may even make it hurt more in my opinion.

Usually, the "I didn't know translates to, I'm too selfish to care to know," in my experience. Sometimes it means, "I won't face it." or "I'm too helpless to stop myself." Those are lies told to his/her self and sometimes the other person.

We have power each of us. We have to be willing to be aware and use it.
That's my two cent.

Fury

 

[DVS]

Sorry Mysteryinc,

I would have to say yes he or she is at fault even if s/he don't realize they are doing it. Ignorance is not an excuse. It doesn't make it hurt any less and may even make it hurt more in my opinion.

Usually, the "I didn't know translates to, I'm too selfish to care to know," in my experience. Sometimes it means, "I won't face it." or "I'm too helpless to stop myself." Those are lies told to his/her self and sometimes the other person.

We have power each of us. We have to be willing to be aware and use it.
That's my two cent.

Fury

In my state, and I assume in others, when you rob someone, using a toy gun (maybe because you think it will be a lesser offense than using a real gun) it's still consdiered an armed criminal action in the eyes of the law.

The way it's described is this: If the person you are robbing thinks it's a real gun, it is a real gun. The effect it has on your victim is what the law goes with. You could be trying to make it seem less viscious because you didn't use a real gun, and showing that you never intended to hurt anyone in the robbery, but the stress you put the victim through is still the same, if they think that gun is real.

Even in simple traffic offenses, they say ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you don't know the speed limit, it is your responsibilty to find out what it is, or don't drive on that street.

So, if you are abusing someone, even if you don't intend to, it's still seen as abuse. And, it's sad, because some really are unaware of it and I'm sure they would get help if they knew what was going on. But, some abusers will use that defense as a means of trying to get out of the whole deal. "I didn't know what I was doing" is probably a common defense. So, those who truly are unaware of their actions are often seen as trying to get away with it that way.

I've also seen the abusers claim their own abusive childhood as the reason they carry on the abuse. That is very possible, because abuse does tend to follow abuse, in the next generation. And, with some, that is considered in the case. But, it's less likely to be much of a defense, as more and more is known about an abuse personality.

Mysteryinc, you said depression is what causes you to use the silent treatment? If that is all you do, I'd be less likely to consider that an abusive personality. You are not alone in being depressed from time to time, I'm sure. How we handle depression is key. Maybe you need to seek someone's advice on that?

But, if someone is truly abusive and knows it, with several of these 15 points being strong in their personality, talking about it with someone will not just help the abuser, but also the victim of the abuse.

 

[chris9]

I guess what I am asking is - if an abuser does not know he/she is abusing, is he/she at fault?.

I agree with the others in saying that if the partner feels abused, it is. We all have the responsibility to monitor our own behaviour towards others, so not knowing that we cause damage is no excuse.
I think though that if you know you react in a certain way in a certain situation, talk about it to your partner to let them know that it's not against them, but that sometimes you do this. At the same time try to work on improving yourself.