Is it abuse or just BDSM?

[catalina_francisco]

I guess what I am asking is - if an abuser does not know he/she is abusing, is he/she at fault?.

From a professional standpoint, there is a good argument which shoots down the innocent abuser theory, and I hope Yinand Yang does not mind me referring to her thread today which demonstrated it as well. An abuser chooses to abuse no matter what they say, and they know when they have done wrong and will either have a multitude of answers ready to explain it away, or make a run for it. How do you know they are aware of what they are doing no matter how chaotic and/or unplanned it might at first seem? Because it is a rare abuser who will abuse their target in front of others or in places where they know it could refelct on them negatively as in arrest or others stepping in to defend the abused.

If it was totally without knowledge of what they were doing and why, they would not plan to do it behind closed doors, out of the view of others, or on specific occasions when they know it will be less detectable or have more effect. The majority also do not abuse across the board but reserve their treatment for specific people, usually a partner or former partner and children involved in those relationships....to the rest of the world they are often the most wonderful specimens of humanity to walk the earth simply because that decreases the chance of anyone guessing what is really happening or believing the victim's accusations.

Catalina

 

[mysteryinc]

I would have to say yes he or she is at fault even if s/he don't realize they are doing it. Ignorance is not an excuse. It doesn't make it hurt any less and may even make it hurt more in my opinion.

I agree. I should clarify that I doubt any of my past relationships would describe me as an abuser (I'm the submissive) though they definitely would be unhappy with the way I handle negative emotions. I guess I was thinking more idiosyncratically in terms of if a particular person is sensitive to a specific behaviour and is not aware of it, thus the abuser is also not aware of it.

So, if you are abusing someone, even if you don't intend to, it's still seen as abuse. And, it's sad, because some really are unaware of it and I'm sure they would get help if they knew what was going on. But, some abusers will use that defense as a means of trying to get out of the whole deal. "I didn't know what I was doing" is probably a common defense. So, those who truly are unaware of their actions are often seen as trying to get away with it that way.

I know I would be horrified to think if I had hurt someone close to me or in the past unknowingly. On the other hand, it's not like my relationships are marked by their longevity, LOL, so I don't have to worry about trapping someone in an inescapable abusive relationship.

I agree with the others in saying that if the partner feels abused, it is. We all have the responsibility to monitor our own behaviour towards others, so not knowing that we cause damage is no excuse.
I think though that if you know you react in a certain way in a certain situation, talk about it to your partner to let them know that it's not against them, but that sometimes you do this. At the same time try to work on improving yourself.

That's good advice. I guess if I can't avoid being in a bad mood, at least a warning that I am in a bad mood will be a bit better. I feel a little like I hijacked this thread to 'why I have failed relationships' but so many people were classing my token coping mechanism as abusive that I started to feel guilty. I guess I was mistaking bad relationship from abusive relationship.

If it was totally without knowledge of what they were doing and why, they would not plan to do it behind closed doors, out of the view of others, or on specific occasions when they know it will be less detectable or have more effect. The majority also do not abuse across the board but reserve their treatment for specific people, usually a partner or former partner and children involved in those relationships....to the rest of the world they are often the most wonderful specimens of humanity to walk the earth simply because that decreases the chance of anyone guessing what is really happening or believing the victim's accusations.

I think this is very true. I am repulsed by the insidious manipulation of the abuser/bully of the vulnerable victim. Reading YinandYang's post shocked me beyond belief.

 

[FurryFury]

I agree.

That's good advice. I guess if I can't avoid being in a bad mood, at least a warning that I am in a bad mood will be a bit better. I feel a little like I hijacked this thread to 'why I have failed relationships' but so many people were classing my token coping mechanism as abusive that I started to feel guilty. I guess I was mistaking bad relationship from abusive relationship.

I think this is very true. I am repulsed by the insidious manipulation of the abuser/bully of the vulnerable victim. Reading YinandYang's post shocked me beyond belief.

Hi Mysteryinc!

You seem to be a smart and thoughtful person. Good for you!

*hugs*

Fury

 

[DVS]

I 'm not sure if this is the right way to respond to this but I wanted to respond in someway so if its ok i'll just break it down rule by rule as to how it applies to me.




1) Gets extremely jealous or possessive.

My Master and I use to both be very jelous people, but we found the more we got to know each other and learned to trust the other the easier it was to let go of all of our jelousy and now live a poly relationship, and I never see any jelous or possessive behaviors in any of.

2) Accuses you of flirting or cheating.
Both My Master and I have both in some way or another cheated on the other in the past, it took a long time to get over the hurt this caused us both. It took counseling, lots of time together, long talks and learning to be open and honest in al we do to over come the cheating and to be able to not accuse the other of cheating, but aventually we made it and are still together and have created a new life for ourselves.

3) Constantly checks up on you or makes you check in.
I was molested as a child many here already know this about me, I was then raped in 1996 after the his happened I was very clingy, I tried to kill myself and found being alone a very frighten thing, My Master thought a way for me to learn to deal with this was to have me check in daily with him, I calle dhim everyday at a certain time, if I was out I called to check in, if my plans changed and I was going somewhere other than where he thought I was going I was to call and let him know, at first i thought it was a bad thing having to check in with him, but it made me feel safe, like I was never alone and at the time it was what i needed that safe feeling, feeling as if I wasn't alone I needed that, he knew it, so it worked for us, I don't check in with him anymore, but I know if I need him all i have to do is pick up the phone and call if only to hear his voice.

4) Tells you how to dress.
My Master always approves what I wear, he lets me choose it if I want or he isn't here to do so but he always approves it if he doesn't like it I don't wear it. But this is a rule we discussed openly before we included it in our daily lives, it was something we both wanted.

5) Tries to control what you do or who you see.
This rule I guess I can see in both lights as abbussive and as part of BDSM, 1. I have a mind I k now who I like and what I like to do, I wouldn't want anyone to tell me I couldn't be friends with who I wanted or go where I wanted, but I can see him not approving of certain places or people if he thought it might cause me harm in anyway or if he thought it might not be a safe situation.MY Master likes it when I make descions on my own, but sometimes I like him to make all the descions for me so I guess thats the rub on this one, it would depend on if you wanted him/her to make all the descions for you at a given time, and if he wanted to.

6) Tries to keep you from seeing or talking to your family.
This one I agree is totally abbussive, you need family you both do, blood is thicker than water, and you didn't get to choose your family members so even if you don't really like them alot you still love them and no one should keep you from them unless you choose not to see them yourself. and I got some I'd choose not to see I think we all do., he has some i'd choos enot to see as well, but I wouldn't keep him from them nor does he force me to see them I just say no thats ok you go ahead I'll see ya when ya get back, and he's ok with it. and I feel the same when he does want to see my family, we just don't stop each other from seeing our own families if that makes since.

7) Has big mood swings, being angry and loud one minute and sweet and apologetic the next.
I'm bipolar, so is my 13 year old so this is like the norm around here, one minute I may feel sweet and inocent and all loving and the next scream and rant and throw things and cry and cuss and any number of other things and my 13 year old is the same wya, and then 5 minutes later be all loving and innocent again, we have both been to theropy sessions and she now takes mediine for it, I have learn to control it with other methods, and leatrn to regonize signs before it gets out of hand. and everyone else in the house has learn to deal with it in there own ways , we just make sure that no matter what happens no ones feelings get hurt and no one ever goes to bed mad at anyone else. it takes time , lots of love and care to learn to deal with this disease but it is possiable.

8) Makes you feel nervous or like you're walking on eggshells.
This I agree is abuse and have no other comment on it.

9) Puts you down and makes you feel as if you can't do anything right or that nobody else would want to be with you.
People who put others down in anyway are very dangerous, it causes low self esteem and many other mental disorders, and many of them lead to suicide or homicide in my opinion. My Master and I both always try to do something daily to help improve the self esteem of those in our lives, whether its a nice word of parise a thank you for something no matter how small, or just a hug, kindness and kind words go along way and generally get you more in the long run.

10) Threatens to hurt you, your family or friends.
Threats wonder if I am guilty of this one myself, I threaten my girls all the time, do your chores or you're grounded, do your homework or you'll get a spanking, they know I'm all hot air and look at me like I'm crazy but I do scream threats like that at them from time to time, I just never carry it through and they know it. But seriously I think threaten to hurt you or your family is abuse, the man who molested me used this to control me when he molested me, he always told me if I ever told he owuld kill my dad and then do the same thing to my sisters that he was doing to me. I believed him it worked. So yes I believe threats are abuse. and something I am learning to rethink in the theropy sessions that I attend learning to deal with all that happened to me.

11) Threatens to commit suicide or hurt himself or herself because of you.
suicide is not joking matter and if anyone ever threated suicide to me or because of me I think first thing I would do was talk to the person make him or her believe what i had to till I could call for help and call and have him or her commited, if a loved on tells the mental health center a person as every intention of harming him or herself they will check it out and can hold a person 7 days if they think a person is considering suicide.

12) Threatens to hurt your pets or destroy your things.
Yes I agree this is abuse, and a cry for help again. I'd call the police they would know how to help you and the person doing the threatening.

13) Yells, grabs, pushes, shoves, shakes, punches, slaps, holds you down, throws things or hurts you in any way.
Yells, I yell back, just me, the calmer you are when you talk to me the more apt I am to listen so yelling just gets yelling, grabs hmmmmmmmm this I could go for I think I like it when he grabs me and puts me where he wants me, I like it when he pulls my hair, picks me up and just moves me or puts me where he wants me but thats just me, pushes on the other hand i'd most likely hit him or push him back, or tell him off, shoves I feel the same as i do about pushing, shoving me would start a fight, punches, or slaps, those are fight starters as well and the police would be called because one of us would get hurt, holds me down that I like , I like to wrestle with him, I like when he holds me down and tells me what he is gonna do or what he wants me to its kin dof foreplay in away to me I guess,throws things I'm more apt to be the one to throw things when I lose it but never at anyone , and I haven't in a long time, but I admit I loose it sometimes, I am bipolar and it affects what I do sometimes and throwing things is just part of it sometimes.If he hurt me in anyway I know that the first vhance I got I would walk away and never look back,.

14) Breaks or throws things, when you argue.
My grandparents fought like this it was something to see, they would ague and we would duck behind a chair or door or whatever else we could we never ran though cause we wanted to watch the fireworks, I saw him throw a bowl of beans up a wall once it stayed there for months cause he dared anyone to clean it up, I saw her strat breaking dishes once , he walked over and started breaking them too, then he said if we keep this up we will have nothing to eat off they both laughed over it, they loved they hated, they fought, they threw things all the time but never hit each other and when it was over they kissed and made up and loved some more, they both are gone now I love them both dearly. Master and I use to fight the same way, he agued I broke things, we both cleaned it up and made up, we out grew that stage in our life and haven't fought for any reason in over 7 years, just a matter of learning what worked for us. We have been together since 1988.

15) Pressures or forces you to have sex or go further than you want to.
don't think he could pressure me into it if he wanted to , and I beg him to take it sometimes because I think being molested and then raped years later, made the idea od being forced a part of my phycy (however ya spell that) we have safe words and rules that I set, Yellow or wait means slow down I need to relax or need more time or something needs to change, red or no means stop now, no questions asked just stop. But I am of the mind set that No means No no matter waht if someone says no stop or its rape and rap eis rape. I do believ rape play is ok as long as rules are set before hand and both people are consenting adults.





I guess this is just my 2 cents worth.

An interesting post. I especially like #14.

 

[Marquis]

I want to be an abusive man. I need to find someone who will tolerate this. Maybe just someone who will be too scared to leave me.

 

[DVS]

I want to be an abusive man. I need to find someone who will tolerate this. Maybe just someone who will be too scared to leave me.

You could use restraints. But, a true abuser wouldln't need such things.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I want to be an abusive man. I need to find someone who will tolerate this. Maybe just someone who will be too scared to leave me.

explain your view of abusive please?

 

[Marquis]

explain your view of abusive please?

Not having to worry about whether what you're doing is abusive or official BDSM is a good start.

 

[FurryFury]

Not having to worry about whether what you're doing is abusive or official BDSM is a good start.

LOL.

No comment on the above.

However I wanted to say I loved the avatar with the Foo lion and dayum that girl (in your current avatar) is pretty!

Fury

 

[Kajira Callista]

Not having to worry about whether what you're doing is abusive or official BDSM is a good start.

well wouldnt that happen in a M/s relationship?

 

[Marquis]

LOL.

No comment on the above.

However I wanted to say I loved the avatar with the Foo lion and dayum that girl (in your current avatar) is pretty!

Fury

Glad I'm good for something.

 

[Marquis]

well wouldnt that happen in a M/s relationship?

I think that would just end up creating more work than it's worth. That's all I need is some desperate slave ringing my phone off the hook when I'm out with the boys or at work.

All slaves and subs ever want to do is challenge their master so he can lay the hurt on them. I don't have the energy for that shit. I can barely wake up most mornings, and when I can, I might spend $300 on meat or quit my job because I don't like my boss' tone. Do I sound like the kind of person who is capable of the responsibility of having a slave to you?! I couldn't even keep a goldfish alive!

I'm too fucking lazy for masterhood, and I'm honestly thinking of hanging up my floggers for a while to tell you the truth. Who am I kidding, I don't even have any fucking floggers.

 

[FurryFury]

Glad I'm good for something.

Having a down day I see.

*HUGS*

From what I can tell you are great for a LOT of things! Loved your words to your lovely girl while you were away. You are intelligent, deep thinking and nice to look at. You have a nice little mean streak and two ladies that love ya, well, at least two!

It will get better. I was a mess all up in my 20's. Hell in some ways I'm still a mess but I'm usually a happy fun lil mess.

We are all allowed to be lazy sometimes and have down days. I know I do!

I kinda revel in being lazy at times. Ummm. Lazing around. Ahhhh!

Hope the day gets better for you soon!!!

*kiss*

Fury

 

[Kajira Callista]

I think that would just end up creating more work than it's worth. That's all I need is some desperate slave ringing my phone off the hook when I'm out with the boys or at work.

All slaves and subs ever want to do is challenge their master so he can lay the hurt on them. I don't have the energy for that shit. I can barely wake up most mornings, and when I can, I might spend $300 on meat or quit my job because I don't like my boss' tone. Do I sound like the kind of person who is capable of the responsibility of having a slave to you?! I couldn't even keep a goldfish alive!

I'm too fucking lazy for masterhood, and I'm honestly thinking of hanging up my floggers for a while to tell you the truth. Who am I kidding, I don't even have any fucking floggers.

Needing a brake is never a bad thing. Just keep in mind how far you have come as a dominant and the understanding you have gained in the past year alone.

 

[catalina_francisco]

All slaves and subs ever want to do is challenge their master so he can lay the hurt on them. I don't have the energy for that shit.

My thoughts on sub/slaves who try this tactic for the purpose of getting pain is that they need to get their head in the right space....submision is not about manipulating the Dominant to get some punishmant because if you are enjoying the punishment enough to be working to get it, it is obviously not the right punishment, and even more to the point, not punishment at all. Hope you go get some floggers and start giving them a good working out. ..is a wonderful stress relief a certain man here tells me.

Catalina

 

[esclave_PP]

I think that would just end up creating more work than it's worth. That's all I need is some desperate slave ringing my phone off the hook when I'm out with the boys or at work.

All slaves and subs ever want to do is challenge their master so he can lay the hurt on them. I don't have the energy for that shit. I can barely wake up most mornings, and when I can, I might spend $300 on meat or quit my job because I don't like my boss' tone. Do I sound like the kind of person who is capable of the responsibility of having a slave to you?! I couldn't even keep a goldfish alive!

I'm too fucking lazy for masterhood, and I'm honestly thinking of hanging up my floggers for a while to tell you the truth. Who am I kidding, I don't even have any fucking floggers.

Well with age does come experience. It is good to know one's limits. Being a Master is hard work, it really is. Mine has been a Master for just about 40 years...and it is a lot of responsibility. Even when I was a switch a while back, I found it very exhausting.

There are a lot of bottom toppers out there, but when you find the right submissive, it really makes the world of difference. In many ways, and I might get slammed for this, is to find a submissive who is like that "naturally" and I use that term loosely; hard wired rather than one who wants to learn how to be submissive. I've found that the submissives I've had, the ones who bottom topped, really had no desire to be submissives, they just wanted to be kinky in the bedroom. I detested that. I thought to myself, why is this person bothering, why am I bothering -- the point isn't to challenge the dominant, it is to submit completely to them.

For the M/s relationship to work, there needs to be trust and both parties have to commit to it, work at it just like any other relationship. I have been there too, in fact I took a break from the lifestyle for about 10 years...I know what you mean Marquis, I really do.

 

[Marquis]

Thanks for the positive comments everyone.

I've always seen being dominant sort of like, let's say, being a singer. You can take singing lessons, read books on singing and have a vocal coach and all those things may help you, but to really be a singer you need a good set of pipes and you gotta love to sing. I've always considered my being dominant as something very natural to who I am, so I expect to mature in that regard as I mature in all aspects of my life.

For the time being, however, I have seriously lost interest in "trying" to be dominant. I recently sought out some experienced masters in my local scene who have offered to mentor me, and I may still take them up on it on a very casual basis, none of that strict tutelage bullshit.

 

[Netzach]

There are a lot of bottom toppers out there, but when you find the right submissive, it really makes the world of difference. In many ways, and I might get slammed for this, is to find a submissive who is like that "naturally" and I use that term loosely; hard wired rather than one who wants to learn how to be submissive. I've found that the submissives I've had, the ones who bottom topped, really had no desire to be submissives, they just wanted to be kinky in the bedroom. I detested that. I thought to myself, why is this person bothering, why am I bothering -- the point isn't to challenge the dominant, it is to submit completely to them.

My best track record has been with people who do not see themselves as "naturally" submissive, but happen to be just that. The worst offenders of TFTB were usually self proclaimed slaves, the least annoying were usually self proclaimed bottoms who "aren't interested in it outside the bedroom" but grew to accept the permeable bedroom door with me. It's all contextual and to me, it's more interesting when gaining someone's trust is a process and not a straight line process.

 

[Marquis]

My best track record has been with people who do not see themselves as "naturally" submissive, but happen to be just that.

I know one of those.

She's pretty great.

 

[Kirabeth]

An interesting post. I especially like #14.
__________________
DVS





AM glad you like my post DVS, was just trying to be a bit open and honest on how things were for me and my expeirnce with the rules listed, and maybe give a bit of a differnt view of them.

My grandparents were a site to behold when they fought, but afterward they would kiss and make up I learned a valueable lesson from them, "you never go to bed angry no matter what" and I can honestly say I never have. and i never saw them go to bed angry either.

 

[Sun Tan Guy]

Kira
I very much enjoyed all of your points. This one is very special and very accurate. Nicely worded and a great relationship you have with your Master. Congrats!!

STG

An interesting post. I especially like #14.
__________________
DVS





AM glad you like my post DVS, was just trying to be a bit open and honest on how things were for me and my expeirnce with the rules listed, and maybe give a bit of a differnt view of them.

My grandparents were a site to behold when they fought, but afterward they would kiss and make up I learned a valueable lesson from them, "you never go to bed angry no matter what" and I can honestly say I never have. and i never saw them go to bed angry either.

 

[Private_Label]

Not having to worry about whether what you're doing is abusive or official BDSM is a good start.

While you may want to do some of the things on the abuser list, somehow I can't see you threatening to hurt other people, children or pets. I don't know if you would forbid contact with family, but somehow, I can't see you doing that either.

The rest of it, can be blamed on your manic periods.

 

[Marquis]

While you may want to do some of the things on the abuser list, somehow I can't see you threatening to hurt other people, children or pets. I don't know if you would forbid contact with family, but somehow, I can't see you doing that either.

The rest of it, can be blamed on your manic periods.

Well I love how you have me all figured out.

 

[Killishandra]

While you may want to do some of the things on the abuser list, somehow I can't see you threatening to hurt other people, children or pets. I don't know if you would forbid contact with family, but somehow, I can't see you doing that either.

The rest of it, can be blamed on your manic periods.

As Marquis' former real-life submissive, I would have to say ... At the very *least*, he is certainly capable of those types of threats.

I wouldn't banish the idea of him carrying them out under certain circumstances, either.

No offense to Marquis, of course. Just callin' it as I see it.

No offense to you either PL, but obviously... I know him alot better than you do. *shrugs*

 

[Marquis]

As Marquis' former real-life submissive, I would have to say ... At the very *least*, he is certainly capable of those types of threats.

I wouldn't banish the idea of him carrying them out under certain circumstances, either.

No offense to Marquis, of course. Just callin' it as I see it.

No offense to you either PL, but obviously... I know him alot better than you do. *shrugs*

Oh that's it!


Your hampster's gonna get it bitch!