Is it really safe, sane, and consensual?

[catalina_francisco]

Pure I do not see the reason to become so upset, I have not said anything that is offending [...].

[....] but I have also said that I value your opinion, I have never said that I know more than you only that my knowledge [...]

Now about what exactly are you so upset? I have told you, you are correct in your analysis of the pamphlet. Do not see any reason to become so upset about it. Like I said I push the cut and paste button to soon, which means in effect that I did not research the paper enough before sending. So again I ask you why you feel so upset about it.

Now about the rest of your argument I hope you are capable to come up with something with more substance than you have just done.

Francisco.

 

[Netzach]

Pure I do not see the reason to become so upset, I have not said anything that is offending or is not true.

You have very little experience if any in BDSM

You have come to this patently true conclusion how? I didn't see an answer to your question as to whether there was RT experience or not. Furthermore, I think how much a person wants to share of his/her rt exploits on line is a completely individual decision.

I don't assume that someone who has failed to allude to extensive RL experience in SM has none. Nor do I assume that someone who does, necessarily has.

 

[catalina_francisco]

HI Netzach,

Interesting to see the cultural differences between countries, I would recognize more of the parties you describe in the BDSM communities I have been part of, although it really depends on the kind of party you go to.

Yes you are correct about the Darwinian aspect that if a person is good in politics or create following it does seem to fail in those instances unfortunately however I still believe that in general the Darwinian rules applies if only because you do not only gain a bad reputation but also a good reputation, which attracts possible partners.

About the fisting well I must have been hanging around the bad crowds or good crowds of course depending what your definition is.

[....]

Francisco.

 

[Pure]

Let's look at the latest cabbage to come sailing by,


Pure I do not see the reason to become so upset, I have not said anything that is offending or is not true.

How do you know these purported truths about me?

[deleted]

You have my statement:
these[activities], in the main 'het' subgroup don't don't commonly involve fisting; that's my impression at the BDSM forum here at Literotica.

I'm giving an opinion that 'fisting' isn't that common in the 'het' bdsm community, and as evidence citing postings at Literotica BDSM. I give an impression--note that word-- in these posting, that heterosexual bdsm persons far less commonly practice 'fisting' than do gays or lesbians, whether or not they are into bdsm.

I invite others' impressions.

Please note, Francisco, that *even if* you're right that fisting is as common in het bdsm folks as queer ones, your basic point falls.

For equal occurence means that the bdsm folks are not in any special danger relative to other categories of sexual tastes and practice. Which was my main point, and to which you objected.

but I have also said that I value your opinion,

As readers of this thread have noticed. Chutzpah, I grant you.

[deleted]

 

[Netzach]

HI Netzach,
Yes you are correct about the Darwinian aspect that if a person is good in politics or create following it does seem to fail in those instances unfortunately however I still believe that in general the Darwinian rules applies if only because you do not only gain a bad reputation but also a good reputation, which attracts possible partners.

Ok, but that's true in the world-at-large as well. If you're an asshole people don't really want to play with you, in the larger sense than BDSM. One hopes.

Also, I'd argue that the same factors outside of upstanding values attract a partner in SM than in non-SM venues: compatibility, hotness, intellectual sparring, liking Indian Food, whatever have you. Impeccable character is good, but it's not going to make me wet every time I encounter it, personally.

People are going to match up and pair off, whether they have impeccable values or are, at best, falliable and feeble and schmucky. It's nice to say that if you're not an honest, careful, repsectable person you are not going to get SM-laid in our community, however it's simply not true. People being people you will. You'd have to do something pretty outrageously egregious to not be able to find a date.

And, in my mind, that's perfectly fine and appropriate. We are not all going to be after the same thing, we are not all going to have to be experts in all facets of SM in order to make good partners. What we should have to do is be capable of discussing, negotiating, communicating, and accruing the skills to do what we set out to do.


And I have made a mistake about Pure's BDSM experience well Pure can come forward let us know what he is, dom sub, switch or bystander and correct me. If not I will assume and I think rightfully so he is a bystander with little to no real life experience.

I'll let him speak to that if he wants. Me, I provide info happily, but not when challenged to a round of what have you done lately?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Pure, Like I said if I have made a mistake it is very simple for you to correct me.

Now about dealing with me, I am only asking questions, I have not become rude, nor am I doing anything else then what you do normally, read posting carefully examine and make conclusions and than ask if those conclusions are correct.

If you can not handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen. If you can not handle intelligent discourse with open questions than of course I will refrain from conversing with you.

If you feel so upset about it, I will remove my postings from your thread.

Francisco.

 

[Pure]

It's not my thread, Francisco, it's a public forum and I'd as soon your embarrassing postings stay. [deleted]

Do stay, please, you're a kind of icon for me!




[deleted]

 

[catalina_francisco]

So this is the statement that has you so upset ok.
"...."

I will edit it for you, of course the question still remains to be answered, but of course that is up to you to answer it or not.

Now about getting the better of me in the discussion I was not aware we are in a contest for something. I am only trying to have an intelligent discourse with you.

Francisco.
Here Pure can we no go back to discussing things. I am big enough to change things when I have upset people.

While I have not insulted anyone's country, nor have I insulted anyone's integrity, nor have I try to lead a pack of wolves againts others.

There is a saying Pure;
The pot calling the kettle black.

You harvest the seeds you sow.

 

[Netzach]

Would you, if the veracity of your experiences with Catalina, were called to question, not be drawn into a defensive stance?

After all, none of us know their validity based on anything other than your say-so. Your training with the femDom, your existence as a Master, all of these things are gleaned from your having said them, merely that.

I'm not challenging their reality, I'm merely pointing out that one could.

Essentially, around here, I would say *you only know SM from typing about it* unless proven....are proverbial fighting words.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Would you, if the veracity of your experiences with Catalina, were called to question, not be drawn into a defensive stance?

After all, none of us know their validity based on anything other than your say-so. Your training with the femDom, your existence as a Master, all of these things are gleaned from your having said them, merely that.

I'm not challenging their reality, I'm merely pointing out that one could.

Essentially, around here, I would say *you only know SM from typing about it* unless proven....are proverbial fighting words.

Netzach for your info we have a nice website with pics and stories in our profile.

But in essence you are correct anyone who is posting here and claims to be a Dominant or have a ton of experiences can of course be lying. If people want to think that, I have no problems with it. I am secure enough to not be overly upset by that.

Francisco.

 

[Pure]

Hi N,

I've wanted to say this, myself:


After all, none of us know their validity based on anything other than your say-so. Your training with the femDom, your existence as a Master, all of these things are gleaned from your having said them, merely that.

A central problem of this thread, particularly its anti-cheating posters is the continued assumption that they somehow know about people's real life. Example: The accusation of hypocrisy:
How would one know that? Dishonesty: How would one know.

Well, this poster, for example, you, has said, "You[a person] shouldn't always tell the truth."

The other guy, [nameless], says "You should almost always tell the truth."

From this [nameless] goes to "you , the poster, are not honest--don't tell the truth--while I am honest."

Constantly "I have integrity, you don't"

Every reader should make the translation:

"I have talked a lot about my integrity, and you have not talked about yours."

A far different kettle of fish. As you say, we know nothing about the 'integrity' crowd except their claims of it in their postings. We are all on a par.

 

[Ebonyfire]

But in essence you are correct anyone who is posting here and claims to be a Dominant or have a ton of experiences can of course be lying. If people want to think that, I have no problems with it. I am secure enough to not be overly upset by that.

Francisco.

That is one reason I keep most of My specific dealings with My subs private.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Live or Memorex

People can glean what they want from anyone they want. That does not make life any less real.

If people are concerned with their "integrity quotient" on this forum, then they will have a hard row to hoe.

It makes no difference at all if you perceive a poster to be truthful or a liar.

If you like them you tend to consider them truthful, if you dislike them, you will tend to consider them a liar.

In the end it makes no difference cause unless you meet them you will never find out the truth.

Believe what you want. The truth is out there.

 

[Netzach]

The voice of reason speaks, hallelujah.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hi Pure,

I have never questioned your integrity. I believe you on your word, if anything the fact that you refuse to take the easy way out and say you have a 1000 years of experience proofs that.

I happen to think that a lot can be learned from reading posts and remarks of people. It is almost impossible to keep succesfully lying without being caught, at least in my opinion.

As for my own integrity, I let people decide for their own, but most importantly, this is just a board, after we have done our little discussions and I let my laptop go into standby, I return to my reality.

Francisco.
I have removed every single instance of what has upset you so much, at least those that I could find.

I retract my question and apologize for making asumptions which might or not might be true.

Can we now return to the normal business of discussing things.

 

[Pure]

OK, Francisco,

There was a topic here. It was,

Is a 'higher ethic' (including honor and truthfulness) and a higher knowledge required of persons practicing BDSM.

You said that higher integrity was needed because BDSM relationships are 'dead serious' and that extra knowledge was needed because even simple activities may pose a lot of danger.

I argued that by and large, the common practices aren't that dangerous compared to those of some other 'sexual minorities'.
"edge play" and other things risking death in short order are not so common, I speculate, and my evidence is postings at this forum which range from branding to dog fucking.

In respect of medical dangers, we looked at a Safer SM pamphlet, on which we, I think, agreed: according to it, most of the bdsm dangers applied to GLBT practices as well. Indeed the pamphlet suggested *lesser* risk of AIDS for BDSM practices. So in that area, the "knowledge" required, say of gay males, and drug users of both sexes is probably higher.

So while I agree that some elaborate practices demand great skill such as safely suspending someone with quick release rock climbing gear, elaborate practices are not unknown in the other minorities considered, and neither in the majority.

We also referenced the issue of internet precautions, and I pointed out that, in my view, as reflected in my little pamphlet, the dangers of 'new' 'net based bdsm encounters were largely the same as for other 'net based sexual encounters, though I did agree that the issue of being bound by a stranger is a special danger, that should be avoided.

The point about internet based meetings, however, is essentially true of all stranger meetings. So, even if--contrary to fact--BDSM practitioners were of higher ethics as a rule, this isn't necessarily true of the fellow you meet at the bar who says he's an experienced dom. As N has pointed out, while there are a few protections built into communities as to who's doing what to whom, and who's unreliable or dangerous, those experimenting or even just visiting a city have no easy way to access this communal knowledge base on a Friday night.

So, even were it the case that 'true' bdsm folks were of stupendous ethics, the prudent course for someone meeting a new person claiming bdsm experience/expertise is to be a bit skeptical, or at least inquiring.

So those are some topics, Francisco. It's possible that my moral corruption and entire lifelong residence on the 13th floor of the University library with only small rodents as sexual partners has rendered me brain damaged with tick fever, but those are my opinions. I'd like to hear from others. Oh, gotta go, someone's scratchin at my carrel door.

peace, bro.

J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Coming from behind my dusty computer, where my keyboard is splattered with sperm after having jerked off by looking at pictures of young teenage girls sucking old fat men.

I might be influenced by wishful thinking or by projecting my own beliefs into the BDSM community. I believe that a Dominant (and also subs and switches but speaking again out of my own world) needs to have higher morals and ethics then the average person. It stand to reason that if you have so much power over your partner that if you do not then you fall prey to the sweet taste of corruption that power can give you.

There are a lot of common points between the GLBT and the BDSM communities as has been put forward often by Pure and others. So do not think it is a fair comparison to compare those two communities and then based on that make a conclusion that extends to the ‘vanilla’ world and the BDSM community.

There have been good points being made between meeting strangers in a bar or being a stranger and going to a BDSM club for the first time. In effect by being a stranger and not being able to use the communal knowledge base, you are indeed putting yourself at an extra risk. I agree with you on that.

But if you are a regular at a BDSM group you will be able to make use of that communal knowledge base which in affect will then regulate by which people will be more or less successful at meeting a partner. Although not extremely effective and there are ways to bypass that knowledge or play the group in such a way that the communal knowledge base can be used in favour by the less desirable elements, it will lead in my opinion to a more honourable ethical Dominant, I call this my Darwinian theory.

It is in effect natural selection; the more successful a dominant wants to be the more he will need to be able to uphold to principles that submissive are looking for.

Francisco.

 

[Netzach]

I think if you are planning on making life decisions on behalf of someone regarding everything from diet to child raising to where you live and when you can leave the house, you probably need above-average ethical concern and leadership ability.

I don't know what percentage of the SM partipant world is 24/7 M/s D/s, but it's not the majority, I think even the biggest fan of that lifestyle will agree with me.

I hope that a decision to pursue the above is made AFTER both parties have actually met and had coffee and held hands a few times, but I'm paranoid and old fashioned that way.

I think general common sense dating guidelines embellished with a few tips on safe bondage, striking, and whatever other technique, as well as some good safer-sex guidelines, are a good bare minimum to be armed with for most people, whose power exchanges might be provisional at most.

 

[Pure]

Note to All,

There is a 'ceasefire' in effect between me and Francisco. We both regret some of the excesses of wording inflicted on one another. And on others trying to participate in a fruitful way.

We hope for good and spirited debate in this and other threads, based on respect for persons, even when *their views* are strongly disagreed with.

J. (with agreement of F)

 

[rosco rathbone]

Coming from behind my dusty computer, where my keyboard is splattered with sperm after having jerked off by looking at pictures of young teenage girls sucking old fat men.

Does that winkey cancel out the admitted hotness of young girls blowing nasty oldsters? I hope not; cause this makes me think there may be hope for you as a pervert.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I would like to think of myself of as an educated pervert.

To me that means be as perverted as possible and the hide your perversion under a ton of words still being proud of it of course.

Francisco.

 

[Temptress_1960]

I would like to think of myself of as an educated pervert.

To me that means be as perverted as possible and the hide your perversion under a ton of words still being proud of it of course.

Francisco.

I like that definition LOL

 

[MissTaken]

Note to All,

There is a 'ceasefire' in effect between me and Francisco. We both regret some of the excesses of wording inflicted on one another. And on others trying to participate in a fruitful way.

We hope for good and spirited debate in this and other threads, based on respect for persons, even when *their views* are strongly disagreed with.

J. (with agreement of F)

You both have and continue to have my respect!

You totally rock.

 

[Netzach]

Bubbe is happy you boys decided to stop throwing turds and play nice.

Here, have some plastic army guys.

And some plastic PHd guys.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Bumping for the current set of "unhappy with husband not into BDSM folk", who may, at some point, be seeking outside relationships.

Enjoy the debate. Take what you need and leave the rest. Just remember that there ARE two, or more, sides to every issue, and everyone around here has an opinion, and some of us obviously feel very strongly about our particular views...

Good Luck!

~anelize