Is submission a form of control?

[James G 5]

Hmmm... so would only work for Scandinavian submissives named Slef?

Thanks Pedant Boy, I fixed it

 

[FungiUg]

Thanks Pedant Boy, I fixed it

Yeah, spoil my pitiful excuses for humour... see if I care...

My comment about control of self vs self control still stands though.

 

[redelicious]

The light bulb goes on
Maybe he meant it can be a form of, or a way to create, SELF control?

Yeah, maybe so.

Though if that's the case I relate less to what he said then I originally thought.

I tend to think you need some inner discipline already and can't depend on someone else to hand it to you.

 

[James G 5]

Yeah, maybe so.

Though if that's the case I relate less to what he said then I originally thought.

I tend to think you need some inner discipline already and can't depend on someone else to hand it to you.

I agree, but I know a lot of people who claim to be submissives because they want someone to control them because they have no self control

 

[catalina_francisco]

I agree, but I know a lot of people who claim to be submissives because they want someone to control them because they have no self control

....And that is really sad.

Catalina

 

[ethereal~minx]

I had a conversation with a Dom the other day about subs who use submission as a form of control (his terminology). His experience was that subs put themselves in situations where they know their limits will be pushed, forcing themselves to overcome fears and therefore gaining control of them.

Personally I am not sure I would have worded it quite like that, but I do think he has a point. Anyone do this?

I get confused easy so bear with me : )
I feel like I have to clarify everything too *rolling eyes*

I was in a situation with two dominants. I am submissive. I agreed to continue the 'scene' because I knew it was something "He" and ultimately we wanted to do. When I began to feel frightened or anxious about what we were doing, I didn't hold back, it was noticed *smile* ~ I commented on my awareness of my 'submission' and limits that were pushed & etc... I was completely aware of what I was doing~
I guess you could call it self-control ..or personal control~ I knowingly went where I was afraid to go, trusting in the two that were with me~ knowing I had the power to stop if I needed to but that ultimately that power~ that power I trusted them with was in my control

In this *laughing* scene~ all three players are equal and unattached (in my mind at the time)

 

[Peter2002]

Maybe another way to pose the questionn

Maybe we should think of it as submission being an act of participation. I know that sounds so obvious. But in these matters there is usually a two-way street, although form often dictates that we all -- tops and bottoms -- treat it as a oneway.

I think that control does enter into at matters big and small, but not in the middle ground. Let me explain:

In a long-term or committed relationship submission is a bond contributing to continuity. And that continuity is sometimes a subtle but real form of control.

In a small -- but not unimportant way -- a sub making her or his preferences for toys, positions, situations, etc clear is a form, I suppose of control. Although I view it as an act of participation. And for me, at least, that sense of participation, of actively -- rather than passively -- submitting is arosing in an intellectual, emotional, and sexual sense.

But in the mid-range, the Dom who wields the strap, hairbrush, cane, crop, singletail, paddle (pick any of the above) wields control.

 

[ethereal~minx]

Re: Maybe another way to pose the questionn

Maybe we should think of it as submission being an act of participation. I know that sounds so obvious. But in these matters there is usually a two-way street, although form often dictates that we all -- tops and bottoms -- treat it as a oneway.

I think that control does enter into at matters big and small, but not in the middle ground. Let me explain:

In a long-term or committed relationship submission is a bond contributing to continuity. And that continuity is sometimes a subtle but real form of control.

In a small -- but not unimportant way -- a sub making her or his preferences for toys, positions, situations, etc clear is a form, I suppose of control. Although I view it as an act of participation. And for me, at least, that sense of participation, of actively -- rather than passively -- submitting is arosing in an intellectual, emotional, and sexual sense.

But in the mid-range, the Dom who wields the strap, hairbrush, cane, crop, singletail, paddle (pick any of the above) wields control.

stated so well : )

I don't totally understand this "...continuity as a real form of control." but maybe after some thought *laughing* sometimes it takes a little bit ...

 

[redelicious]

Re: Re: Is submission a form of control?

I am submissive. I agreed to continue the 'scene' because I knew it was something "He" and ultimately we wanted to do. When I began to feel frightened or anxious about what we were doing, I didn't hold back, it was noticed *smile* ~ I commented on my awareness of my 'submission' and limits that were pushed & etc... I was completely aware of what I was doing~
I guess you could call it self-control ..or personal control~ I knowingly went where I was afraid to go, trusting in the two that were with me~ knowing I had the power to stop if I needed to but that ultimately that power~ that power I trusted them with was in my control

Probably any experienced submissive has been in a similar situation, both fearing the scene and yet proceding with it. But see, where you might call that self-control I call it growth.

I've found it can be a cathartic experience either way.

 

[redelicious]

Re: Maybe another way to pose the questionn

In a small -- but not unimportant way -- a sub making her or his preferences for toys, positions, situations, etc clear is a form, I suppose of control. Although I view it as an act of participation. And for me, at least, that sense of participation, of actively -- rather than passively -- submitting is arosing in an intellectual, emotional, and sexual sense.

Right, and it's an essential part of a D/s relationship because it's communication. However, it's still pretty much up to the Dom/me how to use the information so the control still rests with them.


*edited for pronoun trouble*

 

[mellian]

Re: Re: Maybe another way to pose the questionn

Right, and it's an essential part of a D/s relationship because it's communication. However, it's still pretty much up to the Dom/me how to use the information so the control still rests with him.

yet, the sub's choice is still there wether letting the Dom to have control over yourself or not.

-mellian

...control is such a silly word...

 

[ethereal~minx]

Re: Re: Maybe another way to pose the questionn

Right, and it's an essential part of a D/s relationship because it's communication. However, it's still pretty much up to the Dom/me how to use the information so the control still rests with him.

ohohohhhhhh yes, sooo true~~~ I yiyiyiiii yes, I actively, consciously participated, willingly gave the power to control *omg face* my ---me to *gulp* him and *breathe breathe breathe*

He held ALL control~ power~ trust~ all of me

 

[ethereal~minx]

so at this point, I believe submission can be a form of control only at the "will I participate level"

or ..will I continue to participate level (if it just so happens y'all speak w/ your minds rather than voice *1/2laughing*)

 

[goodfind1]

subs have control...

I feel the true understanding of D/s shows the subs have control. They are far more powerful than Doms. A sub cannot be forced to do anything he / she doesn't want to do. At that point it becomes abuse. So they are the only ones with choice. Doms HAVE to Dominate. Subs CHOOSE to serve. That's why it's called power exchange. At least I've found this to be the case... I may be wrong...

 

[FLButtSlut]

To imply that the act of submission is something that is done to please the dominant is silly. A submissive submits to begin with because it brings the submisive pleasure. I think that every submissive submits with the full knowledge that some limits will be pushed. The submissive, however has control over which limits those will be. Hence hard/soft limits.

The statement that "control is just an illusion" is the base truth here. A dominant only has the control that the submissive has given them. Prior to entering a relationship, the dom and sub discuss (one would hope at least) many things, including those hard/soft limits. As an example, some hard limits for me are watersports and scat, soft limits are caning or single tail whips (people have told me things about them that scare the hell out of me). Therefore, a dominant has the control, which I give to him to eventually introduce a cane or single tail whip into the relationship. He does NOT, however, have the control to engage in watersports or scat.

Prior to a scene, several things are discussed, including implements to be used and activities. The submissive has controlled which implements or activities can take place. The dominant only has control of which things on the list and in what order.

The idea that "topping from the bottom" occurs when a submissive tries to dictate what will happen would therefore only be true if the submissive tried to dictate the entire scene in detail. They are already in control of what could and what will not take place.

I do not believe that every submissive enters into a relationship with the idea that by having their limits pushed they are going to gain control over themselves. If/when the time comes that my soft limit regarding caning is pushed/overcome, I don't expect that have a sense of "accomplishment" from it.

 

[Peter2002]

Control = Surrender

Topping from the bottom is an annoyance at best and a problem @ worst in that it suggests either a lack of imagination on the Doms part or an absence of trust from a submissive.

Your soft limit for the cane is one that can be overcome.

But trust, as in surrendering control, is a precious thing to be nurtured and expanded and exploited in an imaginative and careful way.

 

[goodfind1]

peter has his view...

I would say that in any case if a sub denies a Dom something it is a failure of trust. However the bottom line is that the sub chooses what happens or doesn't. The Dom can do His/Her best to bring about certain results but ultimately the control rests with the submissive. Ever notice that the best Doms have subbed before? They KNOW what it's like... Again just my opinion.

 

[Private_Label]

I had a conversation with a Dom the other day about subs who use submission as a form of control (his terminology). His experience was that subs put themselves in situations where they know their limits will be pushed, forcing themselves to overcome fears and therefore gaining control of them.

Personally I am not sure I would have worded it quite like that, but I do think he has a point. Anyone do this?

For myself, yes and no. No in that I am a control freak. Yes, in that I am a control freak and I am giving up a bit of that control to another and allowing them to do what they want up to the edge of my limits.

It's also about learning trust - giving up more control as you learn to trust a person.

Shrug. I am afraid of intense pain. I don't think I will be letting anyone push that limit any time soon. And that has nothing to do with trust.

'course that may change over the years - but only if I find the person who fits that place where I will allow it. Again, I think that is more a matter of trust than one of ... let me rephrase that... without trust there is no "form of control." Perhaps subs use submission as a way to re-learn how to trust - in order to give up control in a situation that could easily touch wounded areas (be they emotional or physical).

Self example - for a party (a bbq, a birthday party, aniversary party, any party) I like knowing when and where I am going, what I should wear, and how I am getting there and getting home after. Trust - if someone say they are going to pick me up but not tell me where we are going or how long we will be there - it takes a lot of trust for me to let myself go with this person without knowing all the particulars. I'd trust my mom and my brother, and maybe one or two other people. I would not trust my father or my stepmother, I don't trust them. If I have a reason to not trust someone there is no way anyone would ever convince me to give up control to that person - nor would I seek to put myself in a situation that would require that I give up even a fraction of control to that person. Not even to prove that I have enough control over myself to do that (not even to myself). I've had years to try to get through this and why in my life. It always comes back to trust. If I trust you I will let you push against my limits. If I don't trust you - don't get near me.

 

[Peter2002]

Trust

And the never ending search for a redefinition of limits.

 

[La Kajira]

This such a seductive thought.

The idea of putting yourself in the hands of someone you know will drive you, is very seductive. Very attractive. I'm a coward, I've always been a coward, I will always be a coward. My husband never pushes me into anything I don't like, and I've always been a little sad about that.

I would love to have someone push me, just a little... so long as it was someone I trusted, absolutely. That seems to me the most vital element of this kind of lifestyle... that, and love.

 

[FLButtSlut]

Topping from the bottom is an annoyance at best and a problem @ worst in that it suggests either a lack of imagination on the Doms part or an absence of trust from a submissive.

Your soft limit for the cane is one that can be overcome.

But trust, as in surrendering control, is a precious thing to be nurtured and expanded and exploited in an imaginative and careful way.

Peter,

Trust is definately a precious thing. I know that I happen to have issues with trusting someone to begin with, so in that sense, ANY control which I give up is a big step for me. Long term participation in this requires not only that a sub/slave know their master, but that they have a great deal of self awareness as well, in my opinion. The fact that I am aware of not only what I seek and desire, but also what personal issues I have entering a relationship will ultimately be a benefit.

While it is true that the sub sets the limits, a dom does as well. In Private Label's example of being afraid of intense pain, that situation could easily be reversed to one where the sub wishes for more intense pain, but the dom does not (perhaps he once had a bad experience with subspace? ). These types of things do happen after all. Perhaps in time, as trust builds up, the dom will overcome his issues with providing his sub the more intense pain she desires. His sub's continuing reassurance that he is not going to hurt her will help him overcome that pain. So is that "topping from the bottom" or could it just be two people in a relationship working together to make the relationship more satisfactory for both? On the other hand, there are those "control freak" doms who think a sub stating a desire for anything constitutes "topping from the bottom". Kind of becomes a matter of perspective, doesn't it Peter? It seems that just like everything else in the "lifestyle", this particular issue will ultimately always be a matter of perspective.

The bottom line is that whatever the limits, issues, baggage or desires are, the two people involved need to discuss them PRIOR to entering into the relationship. It would seem rare that each would have exactly the same limits, issues, etc., so they each make the decision of which they can live with or without, and move on from there deciding which areas can be compromised, and which can not. That would seem to apply in any kind of relationship whether in bdsm or vanilla if you want it to be successful.

As for your comment about overcoming my soft limit about caning Peter...wouldn't that be WHY I consider it a soft limit? If and when the time and right man comes into my life, I am agreeable to that limit being pushed/overcome. Or were you offering to come to Florida to help me work on that?

 

[Peter2002]

Who too glib, me?



The responses above are far more thorough and thoughtful that my semi-wise guy remark warrented.

The "I trust you to push me/I trust you not to push me" equation is a tricky and vexing one. And, thanks to that wonder known as human nature, one size does not fit all.

I must confess that I have canes and caning on the mind at the moment. I'm preparing to introduce my new sub to its delights. She has agreed with my decision that sooner is better than later. She's away on business for a week, so I'm sure her anticipation will keep her on her toes. In the meantime, this usually sedate and somber middle-aged Dom is rather worked up himself.

Hey, perhaps a trip to Florida (to help you out, of course) might be in order.

 

[FLButtSlut]

Well Peter dear,

For THIS sub, later is better than sooner at the moment!