I've figured it all out

[destinie21]

Re: As for private people keeping guns in their house, I only have this to say:

"XXXXX XXXXXXXX hid his 9mm Glock so well, it took his daughter 4 years to find it."






(The 4-year-old kid put a stool on a chair, climbed up to the top shelf of a cabinet, opened a box, found the gun, put it in her mouth, and pulled the trigger. Ah, well. Atleast her father could defend the house against intruders... )

wow that's a strong statement.
none the less having a loaded gun is a hard descison to make. after all depending on where you live and the crime rates and what not it may seem important to have a gun to protect yourself and your family. Of course you have the option of keeping the gun
in a locked cabinet or drawer ect with the bullets elsewhere and the key hidden but what burglar or criminal's going to wait while you go on a scavanger hunt ? also even if you had the good sense to get the gun first and just try to scare the person you'd still be putting yourself at risk. anway I don't have a gun but it's a hardchoice still

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I don't believe that having a gun in the house would make me feel safe. If someone will try to break into my apartment, who says I'd be able to get that gun of mine in time? What if I sleep right up to the second he puts a cold blade against my neck?

There IS no safety. Only luck. And I for one find that comforting, because it means that I can leave it all in the hands of Fate, and I don't have to fret around worrying if I've remembered to "secure the area" every night before I go to bed.

 

[MathGirl]

There IS no safety. Only luck.

Dear Svenska,
I think a good alarm system and a handy, loaded 12 gauge shotgun make me luckier. I can do that, because there never any kids at my place.
MG

 

[Guest]

SF & MG: in the early 70s I had a lover who was a Black Panther (the kind from Oakland). He kept a gun of some sort under his pillow and a big shotgun standing next to his side of the bed. There was also a piece of 2x4 across his door. I did *not* feel safe because I knew why he had these unsexy accoutrements. But the sex was good, so I never looked under his pillow and kept to my side of the bed. He was a sweetie, so unlike the big bad image the Panthers had in the press.

Power to the people, Perdita

 

[BlackSnake]

We have two police officers that teach classes on gun safety. They go to the firing range once a week, so that the ladies are comfortable with firing their own weapons.

It's easy to pick situations where accidents with guns results in dealths.

How many situations do you imagine, where guns a saved lives?

I don't hunt any more, but I still keep my slug gun loaded. The only cheek I intend on turning is my butt-cheek.

I put my life in my own hands and I will protect it at all costs.

 

[MathGirl]

Originally posted by BlackSnake I put my life in my own hands and I will protect it at all costs.

Dear BS,
Oh my God! The apocalypse must be at hand! I actually agree with you on something.
MG
Ps. I think I'd better take a nap.

 

[Guest]

How many situations do you imagine, where guns a saved lives?

Sorry, Snake, but I am certain there are more deaths by gunshot than lives saved. Just look at the statistics of, e.g., Sweden and England re. crimes w/guns (whether deadly or not).

If we had rigid and enforced gun control there would be less deaths by gun wounds. Full stop.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Swedish laws regarding weapons

The concept "weapons" include guns, rifles, crossbows, tear gas, starting guns, knives, pipes, electric devices (that an be carried in your hand and are made for the purpose of causing pain or stunning people), and any other device that, with the help of compressed air, gun powder, carboacid, or any other method, can shoot out bullets, hails, harpoons, or other projectiles.

The concept "weapons" does NOT include canons for saluting, firearms made before the year 1890, tools made for slaughtering animals, or constructing buildings.

You need permission for:

a) owning a weapon or ammunition.
b) sell weapons.
c) have as a profession to regularly repair or inspect guns.
d) take in weapons to destroy them.
e) bring firearms or ammunition into Sweden.


You do NOT need permission if you're over 18, and the weapon is a weapon driven by carboacid, air or a spring, intended for target practise, and has a limited effect in comparison with other firearms of limited effect.

The police will handle all permissions of owning and using weapons. The permission of owning a firearm or ammunition can be given to:

a) civilians.
b) groups gathered for hunting or target practising; IF they have a stabile organization and regular shooting activities, AND fulfill the high demands of security in storing the weapons.
c) heads of museums, IF the museum in question receives funds from the state according to special regulations. or if the museum is owned by a community, provincial government, or organization under the supervision of the provincial government.
d) authorized security guards.

A civilian may own a gun ONLY if he/she needs the weapon for an ACCEPTABLE reason. Weapons that are mainly collector's items, ornaments, or of special affection value to its owner, MAY be allowed, but is then not allowed to be used for shooting, unless a special permission is granted.
A civilian may ONLY own a gun if there are strong reasons to believe that the weapon will not be used in an improper manner. Permission for owning a gun intended for shooting will only be granted if the weapon in question is regarded as suitable for the purpose that the permission will allow.
This permission is under the condition that the weapon must be stored in a certain way, or that the weapon must be made permanently useless. The permission may be restricted to a certain time, if there is reason to believe that the weapon will not be required to be used regularly.
Permission to own a firearm for the intent of decoration only, will only be granted if the weapon will be made permanently useless.
Permission to own automatic weapons, or guns that are intended for one-hand use, will be allowed ONLY if there are reasonable cause for this, and unless there are special reasons against it, this permission is to be restricted for a period of maximum 5 years.
Weapons or ammunition may only be handed over to a person who has permission to own the weapon or ammunition.

Only those who have permission to own a gun are allowed to bring in weapons or ammuntion into Sweden, and ONLY if there is just reason to believe that these items will not be used illegally.

Every local police department shall keep a register over people who have permission to own weapons, and also records of home-guards who have been given weapons to store at home by the Ministry of Defence.

The National Police department shall keep seperate registers of

1. people or organizations who have been given permission to own firearms or ammuntion, and of home-guards who have been given weapons to store at home by the Ministry of Defence.
2. those firearms that belong to people who have permission to own these, AND any firearms that have been reported stolen, missing, or found.
3. people and organizations that have permission to sell firearms, or take in weapons for inspection, repair, or destruction.
There must be no information in the register of people owning guns that the person in question is a home-guard.
The National weapon registers must not be run together.

Anyone owning a firearm or ammunition is bound to take care of the property, and keep it under strict watch, so that no unauthorized person may get hold of it.

When a firearm is not in use, it must be stored in a speial safety cabinet, or a similar secured storage facility. Ammuntion must be kept locked up, or kept in a similarly secured fashion.

Anyone who has permission to own a firearm is bound to let representatives of police authorities have access to inspect the storage facilities, in order to make sure that the regulations for storage are being kept.

The permission of owning a firearm or bringing a firearm into Sweden, or owning ammunition, may be revoked, if

a) the person who has the permission has turned out to be unsuitable for owning a firearm.
b) the person who has the permission has (for whatever reason) refused to let representatives of police authorities have access to inspect the storage facilities, in order to make sure that the regulations for storage are being kept.
c) the reasons for granting the permission are no longer applicable.
d) there is any other justifiable reason to revoke the permission.

The police authorities have the right to take away the weapons of their owner if

a) there is a reason to suspect that the weapon will be used in an illegal fashion.
b) it is probable that the permission for owning a weapon will be revoked, unless there are special reasons why the firearm, in this situation, should NOT be taken away from its owner.
If there is a likely risk that the weapons will be used in an illegal fashion, the weapons and ammuntion may be taken from its owner even if the permission of owning a weapon has not yet been revoked. This may be done by representatives of the police, hunting inspectors appointed by the provincial government, staff at the Coast Inspection or Customs, or by specially appointed policemen representing the provincial government.
A weapon may also be taken away from its owner if the owner in question is bringing it with him/her, without necessary means to prove his/her permission to own a weapon.

Weapons shall be turned in to the police when the person who had permission to own them has died.

Anyone caught possessing a firearm without permission, is sentenced to prison for a maximum of 1 year. If the crime is considered grave, the sentence will be prison for a minimum of 6 months, and a maximum of 4 years.

Anyone caught using a weapon for anything other than its intended purpose, or storing the weapon in an illegal fashion, will be sentenced to fines or prison for a maximum of 6 months.
The same thing applies for the incorrect use of or storage of ammuntion, and for illegal import of weapons or ammunition into Sweden.

Anyone who does not turnin a weapon that he/she does not have permission to own, will be sentenced to fines.

Anyone using a weapon to commit a crime, will loose not only the weapon, but also the right to own a weapon.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Compared to other countries, for example USA, Sweden has very low statistics of deaths/injuries involving weapons.

 

[Gabriel_Lee]

Any country that promotes weapons as an acceptable method of solving problems, has clearly developed an effective means of creating more problems than it can ever hope to effectively solve. The right of an individual to bear arms so that they may defend their rights, as they see them, in society can only worry the individual who feels that they can adequately defend their rights otherwise.

There is an implicit right for a child who feels bullied to reach for a gun, especially if this is promoted by society as an acceptable means to solve problems, to defend oneself.

We are all children.

 

[Guest]

U.S. gun culture

Flicka and Gabe: You truly have no idea what you're up against here. The 'right to bear arms' voice is somewhat on a par with the arguments re. 'free speech and Lit. barring under legal-age sex'.

You will get nowhere with rational debate. It is a male thing but women have been subverted by the patriarchal culture that makes them fearful (more so white middle-class women).

A penis = power, and a gun = a penis. It's simplistic (to go along with the mindset).

This is a subject about which I will not be tactful, polite or cordial.

Perdita

 

[Gabriel_Lee]

I do irrational debate, too!

If anyone feels they're up to it.

 

[Guest]

Gabe-babe:

Looking at our juxtaposed AVs I just realized I've become something of a stick lady, just a bit curvier than you though.

We'd better get some armor if we're plunging into irrationality, esp. w/gun-lovers.

Perdita

 

[Gabriel_Lee]

I must confess, purdey, you do seem to have the better shape.

 

[destinie21]

During the debates on the adoption of the Constitution, its opponents repeatedly charged that the Constitution as drafted would open the way to tyranny by the central government. Fresh in their minds was the memory of the British violation of civil rights before and during the Revolution. They demanded a "bill of rights" that would spell out the immunities of individual citizens. Several state conventions in their formal ratification of the Constitution asked for such amendments; others ratified the Constitution with the understanding that the amendments would be offered.

On September 25, 1789, the First Congress of the United States therefore proposed to the state legislatures 12 amendments to the Constitution that met arguments most frequently advanced against it. The first two proposed amendments, which concerned the number of constituents for each Representative and the compensation of Congressmen, were not ratified. Articles 3 to 12, however, ratified by three-fourths of the state legislatures, constitute the first 10 amendments of the Constitution, known as the Bill of Rights.



It's funny because when the bill of rights was written the country though albeit stolen was realitivly new to those who inhabited most of it. The right to bear arms was a necessay evil that was made into a law. but sometimes I just want to say give it up I'm all for free speech and all that jazz but we have to realize that the forefathers of our country are the same men who owned slaves to cultivate their purloined land.(this was 13 years after the declaration of independence that declared all men were created equal ) And they would have sooner shot a Native american as look at them but now the war on guns and gun safety have about as much chance as the war on drugs.



Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed


you see how it says well regulated ? something has gone horribly awry

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I believe in the state's right to protect its citizens from their own stupidity in such cases where they are obviously not able to think rationally.

Having told everyone my point - I'm against violence, I'm against guns - I'll ignore this thread from now on, and sit back and watch it sink out of sight.

 

[Guest]

I'll ignore this thread from now on, and sit back and watch it sink out of sight.

I'm with the Swedish babe. bye, Perdita

Gabe: you're on your own.

 

[BlackSnake]

Compared to other countries, for example USA, Sweden has very low statistics of deaths/injuries involving weapons.

Your pervious post reads like law.

Criminals do not obey laws, that's why they are criminals. Lawful citizens have a constitutional right to bare arms....to protect there lives...

Sweden?

I'm sure that the police do not carry guns so that they can harrass lawful citizens. Nor do I worry about a lawful citizen trying to "Jack" me when I make a late run for beer and cigs.

I do believe that anyone in possession of a firearm should know how to use it, and be of sound mind during purchase.

Hand gun control laws are designed to keep criminals from purchasing a firearm. However, criminals buy firearms at a considerable discount unlawfully.

If I go to court as a result of a firearm incident, I hope that I'm the one with a story to tell.

Don't carry a knife to a gun fight, and talk will get you nowhere.

 

[MathGirl]

I'm with the Swedish babe. bye,

Me, too. When the gun argument starts, I'm gone.
MG
I'm gonna find an interesting thread. Maybe something about underage stories or how long it takes to get something posted.

 

[BlackSnake]

Any country that promotes weapons as an acceptable method of solving problems, has clearly developed an effective means of creating more problems than it can ever hope to effectively solve. The right of an individual to bear arms so that they may defend their rights, as they see them, in society can only worry the individual who feels that they can adequately defend their rights otherwise.

There is an implicit right for a child who feels bullied to reach for a gun, especially if this is promoted by society as an acceptable means to solve problems, to defend oneself.

We are all children.

Hey Lee, if you're getting "jacked" adequately defend your rights. Most car jackings end with the victim pushing up daisies. Except for one that I heard on the news. The victim, a woman, raise her firearm and fired twice even though there was a gun pointed at her. Cheers to her for living to tell her tale.

Parents are responsible for defending the children. Why would any parent depend on society to raise their children?

 

[Gabriel_Lee]

Hey Lee, if you're getting "jacked" adequately defend your rights. Most car jackings end with the victim pushing up daisies. Except for one that I heard on the news. The victim, a woman, raise her firearm and fired twice even though there was a gun pointed at her. Cheers to her for living to tell her tale.

Parents are responsible for defending the children. Why would any parent depend on society to raise their children?

You have given criminals the right to carry guns. By your argument, it is clear that they would be fools not to use them first. Obviously, the criminal who does not use a gun is more likely to end up the victim in their crime. There is a clear incentive for them to shoot before their victim has the chance to defend themselves.

These deaths are needless, except to promote crime and the merits of gun ownership.

A parent could depend on society, if they trusted that society. A society that does not trust itself is sick. We are raised by the society in which we live. It's not difficult to understand the inevitability of guns for everyone.

I am not arguing against you BS. You are arguing for me.

GL

 

[BlackSnake]

...

A parent could depend on society, if they trusted that society. A society that does not trust itself is sick. We are raised by the society in which we live. It's not difficult to understand the inevitability of guns for everyone.

...

When a hear a parent on the news say that it wasn't her sweet baby that did those things, I'm thinking that she should be locked up too.

When I started pushing it in high school, my mother told me to graduate on time or else....

I haven't touched a joint, hung out with the bad boys since then. I told my mother everything, and she knocked me up side my head when I was wrong and she felt I should have known better. She always held me accountible, but I'm seeing different things today.

Remember, there is a time for everything. I think it's time for parents to be responsible parents.

 

[Gabriel_Lee]

I think it's time for parents to be responsible parents.

Me too!

 

[Quasimodem]

Overlooking the Gun Controversy from the cheap seats, I can't help remembering that when the American Founding Fathers were professing their need for every man to own - and use - a gun, the rate of fire of a well schooled, and disciplined, militia was - at best - four shots per minute, with smoothbore. Two or three shots per minute, when rifling was added.

Today, a twelve-year-old with a grudge and an Uzi can effectively replicate the firepower of a regiment. Given decent marksmanship, he can hit many more targets, also.

 

[MathGirl]

Today, a twelve-year-old with a grudge and an Uzi can effectively replicate the firepower of a regiment.

Dear Quaz,
Let's outlaw 12 year olds. They sure aren't much good for anything.
Misanthropically,
MG