KC has been thinking too much again

[Marquis]

i know the perfect man for her...i served a Dominant once who, after i had satiated him sexually, expressed to me that i would be "perfect" to be his 13 yr old son's first sexual experience...would teach him how a woman is "supposed" to be. fortunately my Master wasn't down with that idea.

I would do this for my son. No, that'll create weird issues. I'd do it for a nephew. And 13 is too young, but I lost my virginity at 15 and I turned out ok.

 

[Marquis]

I suppose (and please don't shoot me!) that the idea of children comes from a role of complete dominance and control? Of wanting such a subsurvient being as a child. However, being a mom myself, it makes no sense to me since most kids are pretty bratty and being a survivor of incest the idea does repulse me. That said, I can't judge people or their decisions. I find it repugnant, but after all, one of the all time amazing books is Lolita. Perhaps there is such a taboo around children because they are simply...children. The BDSM connection would be in the control is my assumption.

I don't think pedophilia has anything to do with domination. Any loser with a Nintendo can get a vulnerable or unsupervised kid to play with their dingdong.

Although I'm probably not the poster-boy dom, I think I would be bored if there was no will to break. Not to mention that kids don't have tits or asses!

 

[catalina_francisco]

i find it odd considering KC's indirect reference and RJ's direct reference to a particular thread. Pay a little closer attention to the "lively exchange of different ideas on a subject" threads. i don't thrive on conflict, but i do like it when we actually discuss differences in opinions. It ain't about whose BDSM is better ... just what we think it actually is and probably one of the reasons we're here.

Click me.

Couldn't have said it better AA....discussion is about discussing. While I hate conflict, I hate even more the notion people should keep silent if they don't agree with another or have a different perspective or experience just so as to keep the peace and not offend. The truth is sometimes the most innocent of posts on this forum have touched something in another which has caused unintentional offence or hurt. The beauty of open discussion is we get to enjoy a diversity of experiences and views of which we can learn from, or choose to pass....I know personally I have changed many previous thoughts I had when I first came here and much of that has been through the opportunity to read and discuss topics with a variety of people with diverse points of view and experiences. And it is not about whose BDSM is best or right, just a celebration of the fact we are not all sheep who feel compelled to follow the leader without question.

Catalina

 

[graceanne]

I have to admit that I love discussions, but as soon as a discussion turns into an argument, I'm outta there. Quite often I'll avoid really good threads because of arguments. Either cause their's one going on, or cause I can tell that one's going to happen. I think that discussions are great for growing and learning. As soon as people start to get angry they cease to be useful for that, and then are only there to cause hurt and anger.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I have to admit that I love discussions, but as soon as a discussion turns into an argument, I'm outta there. Quite often I'll avoid really good threads because of arguments. Either cause their's one going on, or cause I can tell that one's going to happen. I think that discussions are great for growing and learning. As soon as people start to get angry they cease to be useful for that, and then are only there to cause hurt and anger.

I can understand you feeling that way graceanne as it is often how I have reacted as well, but truth is many things discussed here are topical and close to the core of people's being and beliefs and as such are going to raise emotions. I don't believe anyone here has ever intended to cause hurt or anger though, but it is inevitable it happen from time to time as long as people feel free to express their opinion, and which I think would be sad if it were to change and an atmosphere of silence and evasion take hold.

It is often through those heated exchanges and discussions, both those I have and have not been involved in personally, I have found I have learned the most and begun to appreciate another POV I may not have thought of or understood before. Something I have also found is the majority of people on this board can move on after the discussion calms, and often be friends with those who disagreed with them so strongly, or at the least respect them for being able to express their thoughts and views and not feel intimidated into agreement or silence. That I think is what makes Lit different to many boards...people can act in an adult way and make room for a variety of perspectives without feeling the need to blacklist those who do not perhaps share their personal vision of BDSM 100% or even remotely.

Catalina

 

[esclave_PP]

Originally posted by graceanne
[hijack]
I strongly suspect that was directed at me.

I just want to say that i don't have a problem with the thought of my parents having sex, it's them having sex together! To understand this you need to know that my parents seperated when I was two. I have absoulutely no problem thinking of them having sex with their current SO's, or anyone else they screwed since then. To tell the truth they are and always have been quite candid about the sex. (As in waaaay too much information.) I'm just in denial about my parents together. *shudders*

[/hijack]

You know what is funny, in an ironic sense, is that I know that my dad is in the closet -- has been for years -- in fact my brother and I found all these gay bdsm porn mags in his closet (we were searching for something else...). When we came across them it made sense. My parents haven't had sex for years -- but I agree Grace, it makes me shudder -- mostly because my mom is such a neurotic mess. Well, it is why I live a country-length apart lol. I have always hoped that my dad would just come out and be happy but he probably never will. Instead he spends weeks out of the house "traveling" with his friend...hmmm

But I do agree, sex with a 16 yr old isn't icky, but like you said, mine is 8 -- it kinda freaks me out that someone would want to in the first place.

KC as usual great thread!

 

[Kajira Callista]

Well, I did get two or three different and new ways to look at the whole "children" thing. Like graceanne I think little kids when I think children, and I see that it can mean alot of different things. From18 yr old consenting person to making sure your children don't know,see,hear your lifestyle if that is what you need/want.
I still don't consider it (to me at least) to be something that falls in the limits category or something that should be on a checklist, but I do see why it could be important for some people to have it there. Thank you to all who posted their opinions and thoughts and experiences here...it helped alot.

 

[Mr Blonde]

I can enjoy a lively debate but it is difficult for part-time posters when people bleed three other discussions into the same topic. That's not a bitter statement but don't assume everyone catches every nuance of stuff that happens elsewhere in this forum. I've gotten the sense that a few of my topics have carried over from something and I am left with an incomplete picture of what is happening.

I do enjoy this forum and how we don't just post banal one-liners. It is fair for people to write multiple paragraphs and fully cover something. And as a part-time poster, I accept that when I come back two days later a thread might have blown up to six pages and be very different from the thread I thought it would be. As long as it is honest thoughts and not just silly hijacks, I accept people were speaking their mind and I am free to either keep reading or go find a new thread.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Well, I did get two or three different and new ways to look at the whole "children" thing. Like graceanne I think little kids when I think children, and I see that it can mean alot of different things. From18 yr old consenting person to making sure your children don't know,see,hear your lifestyle if that is what you need/want.
I still don't consider it (to me at least) to be something that falls in the limits category or something that should be on a checklist, but I do see why it could be important for some people to have it there. Thank you to all who posted their opinions and thoughts and experiences here...it helped alot.

Oh, I just wanted to add something. I started this thread because malcah's thread made me feel as if ...maybe just maybe i wasn't seeing a complete picture when it came to this subject...and i wasn't. This thread was not started to become a flamefest nor was it started to be judgemental of anyone. If anyone has ever read any thread i started on this forum they would know that i only start threads when i'm needing input from elsewhere about something on my mind. I don't think the way i live this or have lived this life is better then anyone elses.i have never said that, nor do i feel that way. What i know and what i have lived and learned are what make me who i am as a person and a submissive, my opinions and thoughts are mine and mine alone and no one has to agree with them. I'm sorry if there are other threads on the same subject that have gone way off topic, but this one didn't, and i got my answers from it...actually more answers to more things then i expected.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Interesting thread, KC, and some thoughtful responses... as usual.

Any kind of play engaging kids by your and graceanne's definition is and always will be not "hard" limits but off limits for me. I would, in fact, if I saw strong indications of someone engaging in any type of sexual activity (BDSM or otherwise) with kids under legal age, notify law enforcement.

I don't understand why that particular "limit" has made its way onto some checklists, though a couple of the explanations offered do make some sense, but for me, it's something to cross out, not to indicate "No" or a level of interest.

Regarding older kids, e.g., 16-18, etc., even if they're "legal" in a particular jurisdiction, sorry - not me. At this point, most anyone under 21 isn't going to be of much interest to me, though there might be exceptions who have enough maturity and life experience to make them interesting. Under 18, even if "legal" - sorry, no sale. Even if they have the life experience and are startlingly mature for their age, that's just too far.

I can understand the attraction that younger people have for many "middle-aged" folks like myself, however. Especially for men, but for women, too, screwing someone much younger is kind of a fountain of youth, or reaffirmation of youth - that they're not getting old, if they can get a young chick or guy... it's emotional, not logical.

But that's just me. YMMV.

 

[A Desert Rose]

... as long as people feel free to express their opinion, and which I think would be sad if it were to change and an atmosphere of silence and evasion take hold.


Catalina

You and I have discussed this privately and none too long ago.

That atmosphere is already here.

 

[esclave_PP]

Originally posted by Marquis
I don't think pedophilia has anything to do with domination. Any loser with a Nintendo can get a vulnerable or unsupervised kid to play with their dingdong.

Although I'm probably not the poster-boy dom, I think I would be bored if there was no will to break. Not to mention that kids don't have tits or asses!

Good point Marquis. I in fact am a survivor of incest -- my grandather -- and it wasn't that hard for him to take advantage of me when I was 5 -- although it did last till I was 14 -- but that's another story.

I don't see the attraction personally -- and like Sir Winston says, it really should not be something that is done, but people are people, they are going to do what they want despite the long-term consequences, like jail if they get caught.

Perhaps it is simply the attraction to something so taboo and against the rules of society. After all, there are other things we all do that fall out of the norm. Right?

 

[A Desert Rose]

... Perhaps it is simply the attraction to something so taboo and against the rules of society. After all, there are other things we all do that fall out of the norm. Right?

No. I don't fall out to the norm that far, hon. But I can't speak for others.

Pedophelia is not JUST against the rules.

 

[graceanne]

Good point Marquis. I in fact am a survivor of incest -- my grandather -- and it wasn't that hard for him to take advantage of me when I was 5 -- although it did last till I was 14 -- but that's another story.

I don't see the attraction personally -- and like Sir Winston says, it really should not be something that is done, but people are people, they are going to do what they want despite the long-term consequences, like jail if they get caught.

Perhaps it is simply the attraction to something so taboo and against the rules of society. After all, there are other things we all do that fall out of the norm. Right?

The long term consequences are worse than jail, but since pedophiles are some of the most selfish people alive, I guess going to jail is what they would worry about the most.

An pedophilia is way worse than just falling out of the norm. It' so far out that .. . well you don't want to get me going on what I think we should do with pedophiles. Suffice to say that i's more than taboo, or agains the rules of society. It's vile.

 

[Betticus]

I thought that was for something like adult diaper play but I guess I could be wrong. The kid limit on the checklist. I thought it was for a roleplaying or pretending to be a kid so I just skimmed past that.

I'm so naieve sometimes it scares me.

 

[Kassiana]

Sometimes I have fantasies about wanting to be much, much younger when I start having sex (or, more accurately, get wildly seduced into having sex), but that's the closest I get. I have no desire to screw kids, to get kids screwed, and so on. In fact, stories about that make me uneasy. I don't get turned on by children and those that do ... ::shudders::

Of course, I didn't engage in any serious sexual play until I was 24 and didn't have intercourse till I was 25. I know many people have their first experiences in their late teens. ::shrugs:: I'm weird.

 

[Marquis]

You and I have discussed this privately and none too long ago.

That atmosphere is already here.

Do you care to elaborate on this, or are you just gracing us with the findings of your secret pow-wow with the other Lit big-wigs?

 

[Marquis]

Perhaps it is simply the attraction to something so taboo and against the rules of society. After all, there are other things we all do that fall out of the norm. Right?

I think being attracted to molestation purely because it is wrong is something that people who are not child molester's feel. I've done molestation/underage type roleplaying before purely because I wanted to experience something so taboo.

Although I am sure it is different for every "child lover" as they like to be called, I've always thought the attraction would stem from having a mate that is totally non-threatening. A child will never laugh at the size of your dick, and your game can never be corny to an 8 year old.

I think pedos are generally people who are stuck in an earlier age, and intimidated by adults. Men who never bothered or never managed to step their game up enough to get a woman with real expectations to swoon. I think this is why I have recently developed a tendency to keep partners that are between the ages of 25 and 30, even though I am only 22.

It makes it all that sexier to be fucking some girl who was graduating college while I was just getting into high school. I'd probably be into even older women if y'all didn't start getting so fucking decrepit so damn fast.

 

[Betticus]

I'm not so sure about that Marquis. I think that pedophilia has more to do with patterns of abuse than any lack of game or adult desire to impress a little girl with the size of his equipment. I think that for males it has more to do with at what age they were first exposed to sex and with who and the environment. A lot of people that are into perv or kink were introduced to sex at early ages.

This is just my opinion by the way.

I do believe that with most of the research into the psyche of child molesters it stems from their own past abuse. It kind of sticks them at a certain age. If a boy is made to have sex with a girl when he is very young he may then be able to perceive a girl the age of the one he did as sexual and it might just fuck him up for life.

It depends on the person as to whether they allow that abuse to repeat though. There are some very good modern psychological techniques that doctors use to retrain or to reinforce a more normal outlook on at what age sexuality should begin. Counseling and aversion therapies and all of that.

Abnormal psychology is some good reading.

 

[dolf]

This is just my opinion by the way.

one i agree with.
xx

 

[ownedsubgal]

The long term consequences are worse than jail, but since pedophiles are some of the most selfish people alive, I guess going to jail is what they would worry about the most.

An pedophilia is way worse than just falling out of the norm. It' so far out that .. . well you don't want to get me going on what I think we should do with pedophiles. Suffice to say that i's more than taboo, or agains the rules of society. It's vile.

just wanted to say, there is a difference between a pedophile and a child molester. one does not necessarily equate to the other.

 

[Marquis]

I'm not so sure about that Marquis. I think that pedophilia has more to do with patterns of abuse than any lack of game or adult desire to impress a little girl with the size of his equipment. I think that for males it has more to do with at what age they were first exposed to sex and with who and the environment. A lot of people that are into perv or kink were introduced to sex at early ages.

Well I'm speaking in the vulgar as usual, but I don't think we're disagreeing here. I believe that the reason so many abused kids turn out to be pedophiles is because of how damaging childhood abuse is to someone's self esteem.

This is just my opinion by the way.

Me too. I'm no expert, but even the "experts" don't know much about this shit. It's important to remember that while Physics and Philosophy are as old as history, psychology as science is barely 200 years old and still very much in its adolescence.

I do believe that with most of the research into the psyche of child molesters it stems from their own past abuse. It kind of sticks them at a certain age. If a boy is made to have sex with a girl when he is very young he may then be able to perceive a girl the age of the one he did as sexual and it might just fuck him up for life.

I fucked a 15 year old when I was 16, but I would never fuck a 15 year old now and not just because of guilt and the law. I think it would have to be a pretty damn spectacular 15 year old to turn me on, despite how excited I was by mosquito bite titties and chicken legs as a young lad.

 

[Betticus]

Marquis,

For me I think it's where a lot of my protective daddy type of thing comes from. I was molested by a sister when I was around 11 or so, I didn't know it was wrong at the time. After that I've been raped by women once in a while but the last time that happened I was 21. For me the response is that I'm usually very tolerant of girls/women and have learned to understand a lot of their psyche, especially the abused ones. While my adult response to all of this is not to want to mess with kids sexually it came out different for me. I get way too overprotective sometimes with girls that I'm either with or who are close friends. If someone messes with them or hurts them or tries to then it triggers a violent or at least an extremely dominant response in me but it's usually only directed at other males.

I'm still attracted to women who are very petite and small chested and it probably stems from the abuse but like you young age in reality puts me off. I do tend to find women who were abused and learn everything about them and their psyche and where it comes from. Then I try to give them a very safe and trusting/loving environment to work through it all and to deal with all of the past baggage. I've gotten scarily good at manipulating people emotionally and psychologically. I just have to now work on the problem of trying to dominate other males and am working it over to just being dominant in general. I probably couldn't be someone like AA or DVS and will always be protective of women but I'm trying to achieve some kind of balance.

 

[bridgeburner]

KC,

I had the same questions about many of the limits lists I've seen. I mean I just assumed that murder and necrophilia are right out. I wouldn't expect to have to tell someone that I'm unwilling to have sex with a 12yo, fellate a corpse or be stabbed to death at the moment of climax.

Scat and beastiality might make it on a list of limits but I don't think they're inherently BDSM acts.

Extreme pain and body modification would make it on a list but there are very few people who wouldn't have extreme pain as a limit. "Extreme" means something different to different people and it seems to me that it would be useful to be a more specific about what one considers extreme pain. Ditto body modification. Plenty of people are willing to get piercings and tattoos and even brands. There's corset training and foot binding and nipple and lobe stretching and all of those things appeal to people in different ways and to different extents. Those things strike me as useful limits to define rather than spending time outlining limits that apply to 99.9% of people.

-B

 

[sunfox]

just wanted to say, there is a difference between a pedophile and a child molester. one does not necessarily equate to the other.

I don't think the finer differences between being a pedophile or a child molester, whatever those differences might be, really matter to anyone who has children.

Not to put too fine a point upon it, but if someone lays a hand on my child sexually until she's old enough to deal with it herself, I'll be in jail for a very long time when I'm done with them... and there won't be enough left of the perpetrator to fill a Hefty bag.

I don't think it's a BDSM thing, and I have to say, it irritates me to see it included in a list for BDSMers. My sexual practices being different doesn't mean I think abusing children is fun.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.