Lily's After Hours Club

[Vail_Indigo]

Something like this though? Oversexualized marketing isn't going to cause me harm unless I let it. I'm not going to look at a boxer ad in a magazine with a sexy half-dress guy, abs of steel, and get all upset over it. Maybe some guys will, whatever. It's not a big deal to me. Even the concept of it. Seriously, it's kind of stupid to get all sensitive over something so silly. I'm talking about this particular "Adonis in way too tight underwear" ad. That's silly. It is.

But that's just me. I don't really care enough to let it ruffle my feathers.

again, missing the larger context.
Of course it doesn't bother you. You aren't within a system of which this is just a part. A system that, on one aspect, says women are nothing but sex objects.
That same system takes that idea and dehumanizes women in general, and justifies all sorts of shit that we have to put up with on a daily basis.

Saying that this doesn't bother you is like saying you aren't bothered when jokes are made about white people. Of course you aren't bothered.

 

[Mister J]

again, missing the larger context.
Of course it doesn't bother you. You aren't within a system of which this is just a part. A system that, on one aspect, says women are nothing but sex objects.
That same system takes that idea and dehumanizes women in general, and justifies all sorts of shit that we have to put up with on a daily basis.

Saying that this doesn't bother you is like saying you aren't bothered when jokes are made about white people. Of course you aren't bothered.

Okay, no. Even if I was a woman, I wouldn't be bothered by this kind of marketing. That was the comparison I was trying to make by saying as a guy, seeing another guy oversexualized doesn't bother me either. I might roll my eyes, but I'm not going to get upset about it.

Just because I'm a guy, it doesn't mean I don't understand. I realize how stupid it is and how unrealistic it's portrayal is. I'm only saying that I understand all of that, even if I were a woman, I get all that. I still wouldn't let it piss me off. Why? Because its silly. That's why. I know the difference. I'm smart enough to know better. I don't need to let it bother me. I'm better than that.

Of all people, Vail. I figured you'd be better than to let some stupid marketing get under your skin too.

 

[Noon_Shadow]

The point really is that there's nothing wrong with the hypersexualized Mrs. Fanservice character. The problem is that there's not many sufficiently realistic and relatable female characters anywhere. A single male actor/model smiling and wearing underwear doesn't make up for the fact that there are generally a wide range of male roles in films. It certainly helps to be good looking, but if a guy is supposedly the main character, he usually has some depth to him. Female main characters have to work really hard to be three dimensional, and every female character whose entire job to be about sex appeal only emphasizes it more.

While the Avengers movie doesn't really offer that much in terms of interesting characters-I'm guessing, at least-most of the main male characters had at least one film to themselves that detailed their actual struggles, and their development. When you toss in a female character who's job is to look sexy and very little else as a member of a superhero TEAM, you're kind of twisting the dagger, aren't you?

I mean, there's three types of females in film. The first are supposed to just look good: These are the Megan Fox's of the world. They don't have to act, or have a role, or be serious characters for any reason whatsoever. The second kind of female characters are the damsels in distress, who are supposed to be weak and needy until a sufficiently prepared male comes along to rescue them. Some of these can actually be well written, but how often does a woman come along to rescue? Not just talking about superhero stories with damsels in distress, but even more standard fare where a woman is supposed to look for her Knight in Shining Armor. There's always a sexual metaphor to it, being played out. And the third type of woman typically has the job of acting extremely emotional, irrational, and probably also needy. This female is usually a main character who's "looking for the right man in all the wrong places," she's somehow screwed up a previous relationship, and she probably gets mad at somebody because there's some kind of a misunderstanding. But don't worry, she'll find the right guy at the end of the movie, and everything will be okay.

There's certainly a few characters in media who've dared defy these tropes, but it's still not reassuring for females, I'm sure, that Hollywood defines female gender roles so rigidly, and typically, without bothering to make them seem realistic.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Okay, no. Even if I was a woman, I wouldn't be bothered by this kind of marketing. That was the comparison I was trying to make by saying as a guy, seeing another guy oversexualized doesn't bother me either. I might roll my eyes, but I'm not going to get upset about it.

Just because I'm a guy, it doesn't mean I don't understand. I realize how stupid it is and how unrealistic it's portrayal is. I'm only saying that I understand all of that, even if I were a woman, I get all that. I still wouldn't let it piss me off. Why? Because its silly. That's why. I know the difference. I'm smart enough to know better. I don't need to let it bother me. I'm better than that.

Of all people, Vail. I figured you'd be better than to let some stupid marketing get under your skin too.

And what I'm saying is that if you don't look at this in the larger context you are missing everything.
This doesn't particularly get under my skin, but I do see it as part of a larger system of general dehumaization and oppression of women.
None of this stuff stands on its own.

look...here's an example of how things which just kinda suck turn into devastating issues:
Women grow up being told that they have to fit into an impossibly small body shape range if they want men to be attracted to them (and, actually, its even worse since we've added a moral quality to being overweight, but lets ignore that for now).
That wouldn't be anywhere near as big a deal if they weren't also given the message constantly that they are worthless without a man, and, worse, that your real purpose is for the sexual gratification of men and making babies.
Add in pay inequality, domestic violence and a host of other things and its a fucking nightmare that just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

See? The body image issue is just a part of a much larger problem. This kind of advertising feeds into this.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

EXACTLY! Even if you don't look at the broader implications for women, even if you just look at movies and advertising, this isn't a one-off. This is ALL MOVIES, pretty much. The lead female may not be violent, but shes almost certainly a size 2. Add in the fact that most of them just want to get a man, and are willing to give up eveyrthing about themselves to do so.

The point really is that there's nothing wrong with the hypersexualized Mrs. Fanservice character. The problem is that there's not many sufficiently realistic and relatable female characters anywhere. A single male actor/model smiling and wearing underwear doesn't make up for the fact that there are generally a wide range of male roles in films. It certainly helps to be good looking, but if a guy is supposedly the main character, he usually has some depth to him. Female main characters have to work really hard to be three dimensional, and every female character whose entire job to be about sex appeal only emphasizes it more.

While the Avengers movie doesn't really offer that much in terms of interesting characters-I'm guessing, at least-most of the main male characters had at least one film to themselves that detailed their actual struggles, and their development. When you toss in a female character who's job is to look sexy and very little else as a member of a superhero TEAM, you're kind of twisting the dagger, aren't you?

I mean, there's three types of females in film. The first are supposed to just look good: These are the Megan Fox's of the world. They don't have to act, or have a role, or be serious characters for any reason whatsoever. The second kind of female characters are the damsels in distress, who are supposed to be weak and needy until a sufficiently prepared male comes along to rescue them. Some of these can actually be well written, but how often does a woman come along to rescue? Not just talking about superhero stories with damsels in distress, but even more standard fare where a woman is supposed to look for her Knight in Shining Armor. There's always a sexual metaphor to it, being played out. And the third type of woman typically has the job of acting extremely emotional, irrational, and probably also needy. This female is usually a main character who's "looking for the right man in all the wrong places," she's somehow screwed up a previous relationship, and she probably gets mad at somebody because there's some kind of a misunderstanding. But don't worry, she'll find the right guy at the end of the movie, and everything will be okay.

There's certainly a few characters in media who've dared defy these tropes, but it's still not reassuring for females, I'm sure, that Hollywood defines female gender roles so rigidly, and typically, without bothering to make them seem realistic.

 

[Mister J]

Look, society is going to try to mold you or shape you or tell you how you should be... NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE. Man or woman, big or small, skinny or fat. It's your responsibility as a reasonable and intelligent human being to decide to say "Fuck off" to society's standards. Seriously. It's really not all that complicated and not nearly as drastic as it's being made out to be.

 

[Mephistophelily]

*peers over the bar*
....it was a joke picture....
I made an oops...

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Look, society is going to try to mold you or shape you or tell you how you should be... NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE. Man or woman, big or small, skinny or fat. It's your responsibility as a reasonable and intelligent human being to decide to say "Fuck off" to society's standards. Seriously. It's really not all that complicated and not nearly as drastic as it's being made out to be.

Wow, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
You have no clue the massive onslaught on the worth of women that starts from the day you are born and lasts until the day you die.
You don't shrug this off.
Lots aren't even aware its happening.
AND then you get all sorts of cool stuff like laws that reinforce these ideas, 'role models' that do the same.
You really have no understanding about what you are saying or how this all works, or the sheer scope of it.

 

[UnseenMaiden]

I'm a woman. This marketing doesn't bother me.... most of the time.

I will say that poster went out of its way to show some ass. Black Widow could've just as easily been in a non-awkward position that was also sexy.

As for the larger context trees for the forest picture that Vail's trying to get at, she's right. We are raised in a cultural where women are praised for being beautiful above being talented or smart or funny or any number of things that people do value both men and women for. If you try to use the sexy male model ads as an example of the exploitation swinging both ways, that's true, but it still isn't an equal swing. Male celebrities will not end up with a photo of them in the tabloids because they dared to step outside of the house in comfy clothes and no makeup.

I realize that's a bit whiny and sounds like no big deal and up front it isn't and does have a lot to do with how comfortable you are as a person, but that shit filters down into the real world. It has us learning that sex sells and beauty is really all you need to succeed in life and unfortunately most of that is being directed towards what a girl thinks she has to be when she becomes a woman. It hurts a lot of people to realize that they are being subconsciously compared to an unattainable ideal and, personally, I have to say it isn't that I want men to feel objectified as well, but that if they are objectified maybe our societies values will finely shift from the pretty outside being more valuable than what you as a person can achieve.

We rant at the objectification and those not condemning it for the bullshit it is because we don't have any actual person to lay blame to. We're all to blame and we hate it sometimes.

http://fartheralong.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/dr-horrible-and-the-death-ray-dr-horribles-sing-a-long-blog-1948053-1280-1024.jpg?w=368&h=295

 

[Vail_Indigo]

I think on some level they are objectified in the media. Maybe in somewhat different ways, but still.
The differene is, though, that this isn't the only message they get.

I'm a woman. This marketing doesn't bother me.... most of the time.

I will say that poster went out of its way to show some ass. Black Widow could've just as easily been in a non-awkward position that was also sexy.

As for the larger context trees for the forest picture that Vail's trying to get at, she's right. We are raised in a cultural where women are praised for being beautiful above being talented or smart or funny or any number of things that people do value both men and women for. If you try to use the sexy male model ads as an example of the exploitation swinging both ways, that's true, but it still isn't an equal swing. Male celebrities will not end up with a photo of them in the tabloids because they dared to step outside of the house in comfy clothes and no makeup.

I realize that's a bit whiny and sounds like no big deal and up front it isn't and does have a lot to do with how comfortable you are as a person, but that shit filters down into the real world. It has us learning that sex sells and beauty is really all you need to succeed in life and unfortunately most of that is being directed towards what a girl thinks she has to be when she becomes a woman. It hurts a lot of people to realize that they are being subconsciously compared to an unattainable ideal and, personally, I have to say it isn't that I want men to feel objectified as well, but that if they are objectified maybe our societies values will finely shift from the pretty outside being more valuable than what you as a person can achieve.

We rant at the objectification and those not condemning it for the bullshit it is because we don't have any actual person to lay blame to. We're all to blame and we hate it sometimes.

http://fartheralong.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/dr-horrible-and-the-death-ray-dr-horribles-sing-a-long-blog-1948053-1280-1024.jpg?w=368&h=295

 

[Noon_Shadow]

Checks the pulse. Shakes his head, muttering.... "She's gone....."

Stands up, slowly, regretfully, turning back to the camera. "We did it. We killed the Lounge. It's absolutely dead right now." Throws his hat in frustration and goes on an archetypal rage.

 

[Eazy]

*peers over the bar*
....it was a joke picture....
I made an oops...

Group spankings on Lily as punishment!!

......wait.

 

[Noon_Shadow]

Checks the pulse. Shakes his head, muttering.... "She's gone....."

Stands up, slowly, regretfully, turning back to the camera. "We did it. We killed the Lounge. It's absolutely dead right now." Throws his hat in frustration and goes on an archetypal rage.

Also, this seems obligatory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0yXqU-w9U0

 

[Annisthyrienne]

Also, this seems obligatory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0yXqU-w9U0

That makes me wonder if McCoy ever really helped anyone on that series.

 

[Noon_Shadow]

That makes me wonder if McCoy ever really helped anyone on that series.

Well, he was certainly all over that incident where Spock lost his brain! chuckles.

 

[Annisthyrienne]

I think we all just assumed he was a medical doctor, when in reality, he was a coroner. He pronounced more people than Quincy!

 

[kittenofdeath]

I'm a woman. This marketing doesn't bother me.... most of the time.

I will say that poster went out of its way to show some ass. Black Widow could've just as easily been in a non-awkward position that was also sexy.

As for the larger context trees for the forest picture that Vail's trying to get at, she's right. We are raised in a cultural where women are praised for being beautiful above being talented or smart or funny or any number of things that people do value both men and women for. If you try to use the sexy male model ads as an example of the exploitation swinging both ways, that's true, but it still isn't an equal swing. Male celebrities will not end up with a photo of them in the tabloids because they dared to step outside of the house in comfy clothes and no makeup.

I realize that's a bit whiny and sounds like no big deal and up front it isn't and does have a lot to do with how comfortable you are as a person, but that shit filters down into the real world. It has us learning that sex sells and beauty is really all you need to succeed in life and unfortunately most of that is being directed towards what a girl thinks she has to be when she becomes a woman. It hurts a lot of people to realize that they are being subconsciously compared to an unattainable ideal and, personally, I have to say it isn't that I want men to feel objectified as well, but that if they are objectified maybe our societies values will finely shift from the pretty outside being more valuable than what you as a person can achieve.

We rant at the objectification and those not condemning it for the bullshit it is because we don't have any actual person to lay blame to. We're all to blame and we hate it sometimes.

http://fartheralong.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/dr-horrible-and-the-death-ray-dr-horribles-sing-a-long-blog-1948053-1280-1024.jpg?w=368&h=295

Man, I loved dr Horrible, completely didnt see that sad as hell ending coming though.

 

[UnseenMaiden]

Man, I loved dr Horrible, completely didnt see that sad as hell ending coming though.

XD yea it'll completely undermine the ending though if they bring Penny back ..or bring in some similar love interest to replace her

 

[Pain_Bauble]

Wow, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
You have no clue the massive onslaught on the worth of women that starts from the day you are born and lasts until the day you die.
You don't shrug this off.
Lots aren't even aware its happening.
AND then you get all sorts of cool stuff like laws that reinforce these ideas, 'role models' that do the same.
You really have no understanding about what you are saying or how this all works, or the sheer scope of it.

*raises an eyebrow* Do you know how long the concept of the objectified rail thin woman became common? 1950. Honest, it's a fairly recent fad. Before the 50s, the women you went for was the wide hipped family girl. Before that it was the stout, working mother. Objectifying is something that transmutes through the ages.
Hell, for the majority of human existence, the large woman. The robust. That was the ideal in sexuality. In 1913 we coined the phrase rubenesque for art about large women. Why? Because they could give you something no one else could. A better chance at having a low child mortality rate.
With the over population, with the stay at home wife, with the visual media of the television and print magazines, and most importantly, with better quality of medicine and the lack of necessity for us to own our own farm, the idea of a socialite, of tall legs, and an hourglass figure began emerging.
It's something that happens. It's also something that changes so constantly that the quantifier that you determine your being held down for this generation could be what gives you the upper hand the next.
We're closing in on the day when objectifying will becomes a personal investment, where equality will set how we're objectified completely different from what it is today. When our inter-connectivity will swing fads so wildly that the necessity of just being you will come out of the chaos, simply because you can not please everyone. And you can't.
The next show of objectifying will be based on interests. You'll be quantified and looked at for your interests. Hell hopping about the internet, you'll see that we're starting to swing back into cliques. The gamers, the channers, the furries, the fantasy football leaguers. That is actually becoming stuff that are bleeding into the real world. Into the news, and pop culture, and humor, and sexuality. Watch the day you get stopped at the doors of a club because you're not wearing a school girl costume and cat ears might be around the corner.
Women are becoming a greater place in the marketplace. They are holding jobs and working their way into jobs that was always male dominated. They have an equal dollar value in low paying jobs, and are gaining the larger pay checks, and it's showing. The world is on the cusp of a change.
And men? We've had it just as bad. Greek statues have always shown men of physique. This image hasn't changed through out history. The heroes, the leaders. They all have been men of brawn. What happened when someone challenged this in media? We got Bacchus. Baron Munchhausen. Norm Peterson. Homer Simpson. Peter Griffin. Yah.
Being a fat guy means your an alcoholic, lazy, abusive, or a liar.


Er, what was I doing before I found this gem. Oh right. As for hyper sexualization, it's something that happens that creates a lasting image in the mind. How many commercials do you ignore on a daily basis? Your eyes will stop on an image of sexuality a second longer, and they might be able to sneak that body spray under your bullshit radar.

XD yea it'll completely undermine the ending though if they bring Penny back ..or bring in some similar love interest to replace her

Oh, I would like them to expand the world of Dr. Horrible in the second film. I want to see more villains and heroes and their balance. Perhaps Dr. Horrible killing Moist, and having to redeem himself in an epic battle against Bad Horse for the sake of the world where he learns the valuable.. no.. he clones Penny, and reigns from atop Castle Horrible. Evil wins.

 

[Ahren]

And men? We've had it just as bad.

Haha...hahahahaha...

Wow you really believe this.

 

[Pain_Bauble]

Haha...hahahahaha...

Wow you really believe this.

I'm sorry Ahren, please continue with this. What is it in those nine words that you feel is wrong? Now, context is the key as it's a physical concept we've been talking on, and not particularly a sociopolitical one, but I feel it's best to have all sides at the table.

 

[Ahren]

Okay fine we'll keep it in that specific context.

I will highlight the biggest issue with what you said.

"And men? We've had it just as bad. Greek statues have always shown men of physique. This image hasn't changed through out history. The heroes, the leaders. They all have been men of brawn."

Hey there's the problem. Besides, this isn't even true. George Washington and Ghandi are not exactly known for their chiseled pecs.

Anyway, TV and movies are shit at portraying strong female characters. I imagine it would be tough for anyone to count on one hand some movies that feature a female lead that is not oversexualized, not overshadowed by her male counterpart, or defined by her relationship with a man. The Alien movies don't count separately, by the way. Fat guys being defined as stupid and drunk because of Homer Simpson is barely a similar issue and doesn't even come close to scratching the surface of sexism. It's like saying the burn you got from the stove once is as bad as someone who had 90% of their body charred in a car accident. They're both "bad" but one is way fucking worse. The expectations of men to be beautiful by society doesn't even come close to the expectations for women.

If you want to argue that men occasionally face similar issues, fine. Just don't try to say they've had it 'just as bad' because that's immensely ignorant. I'm not really even qualified to talk about how bad women have it as I am not one myself. I know it's easier to trivialize it when you don't face the same oppression every day.

What I have experienced is playing online games along with females, only to have lewd or offensive remarks tossed out at them simply because they're women. Not just by stupid teens but adults. It pisses me off and I can't imagine how much it sucks not to be able to do something you enjoy just because of your gender, but maybe this is straying off topic? I don't know.

I'm literally the worst at arguing this stuff. I'm probably just hurting the women more by even talking about it.

 

[Pain_Bauble]

Okay fine we'll keep it in that specific context.

I will highlight the biggest issue with what you said.

"And men? We've had it just as bad. Greek statues have always shown men of physique. This image hasn't changed through out history. The heroes, the leaders. They all have been men of brawn."

Hey there's the problem. Besides, this isn't even true. George Washington and Ghandi are not exactly known for their chiseled pecs.

Anyway, TV and movies are shit at portraying strong female characters. I imagine it would be tough for anyone to count on one hand some movies that feature a female lead that is not oversexualized, not overshadowed by her male counterpart, or defined by her relationship with a man. The Alien movies don't count separately, by the way. Fat guys being defined as stupid and drunk because of Homer Simpson is barely a similar issue and doesn't even come close to scratching the surface of sexism. It's like saying the burn you got from the stove once is as bad as someone who had 90% of their body charred in a car accident. They're both "bad" but one is way fucking worse. The expectations of men to be beautiful by society doesn't even come close to the expectations for women.

If you want to argue that men occasionally face similar issues, fine. Just don't try to say they've had it 'just as bad' because that's immensely ignorant. I'm not really even qualified to talk about how bad women have it as I am not one myself. I know it's easier to trivialize it when you don't face the same oppression every day.

What I have experienced is playing online games along with females, only to have lewd or offensive remarks tossed out at them simply because they're women. Not just by stupid teens but adults. It pisses me off and I can't imagine how much it sucks not to be able to do something you enjoy just because of your gender, but maybe this is straying off topic? I don't know.

Ah, first I see the problem. See, this was a visual media discussion, where as I gave examples, such as Homer as the antithesis to say Black Widow as problems of the issue. You chose to come to this party with George Washington and Gandhi. Those happen to be real people, and by no means has any other example been real people.

No one cares about Banner but will objectify the Hulk. Prince Charming. Batman. I can hold a list to every female character you can point at. As for women being overshadowed by men, that is kinda harder to work with, because of the issues behind the writer changes. I could give perfectly good examples of characters, such as Amanda Waller. A large, intelligent black woman whom had all the DC heroes and villains alike by the balls in one form or another.

But, one hand? That all? 5 huh.. Lemme see..

1. Agatha Heterodyne
2. Juno MacGuff
3. Cyber Six (Adrian Seidelman) (This one is actually interesting as she dresses as a male as her secret identity and is scoffed by it for being the weak guy, but is a hero to the people as a girl)
4. April O'Neil (Okay, this one needs explaining. You would have to ignore the 80s cartoon, but originally she's a brilliant computer programmer, and in later series even becomes trained in martial arts herself and becomes a confident woman whom helps as much as the turtles.)
5. Courtney Crumrin ( If you can find trades of this, read them. The character is much better then Harry Potter in the aspect of a wizardly character)
6. Daria.

Er.. well, one to many (oh, Elinor from Sense and Sensibilities) but I actually CAN continue. I eat a lot of media. It's something you have to do as an artist is dive into everything you can. Some of it is god awful, but more and more there are cracks in the system. A lot of indie comics are getting more gender equal, and not just the slice of life ones. You're starting to see evidence of male writers taking on female characters and respecting them.

I'm.. actually not sure the gamer one does apply due to the terrible issue of anonymity. People tend to say and do things different from their standard character and morals if they know there is no consequences. It's unfair, to be sure, but I've heard good things of different communities within the over arching sub-culture that is known as gaming that has been trying to combat this. Hell, there are a few MMOs, like.. whatchit.. Runescape that I've gathered a lot of fairness for both sexes. Call of Duty? Not so much. Casual games has been another front that has garnered a fair go. This is something that is changing slowly as the community is becoming more equal, and harsher consequences are created to combat the issue.

Ooh, here we go, http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment. Watch that. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/true-female-characters and this. Oh, and this. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/sex-in-games.

And to be fair, the expectations of men are by far ignored in favor of the easier means of seeing oneself. We don't have nearly the training in hating ourselves from a social stigmata. Could there come a point where the pendulum swings the other way and men start to become chained by their own looks in that way, and in such a circumstance do you believe that the pendulum will stop at the half way mark?

From a visual point of view, it's how the culture changes that determines who is left out in the cold. And fighting sexism isn't something you can fix by speaking out about sexism as much as it can be by being a better person. That's it. Enough people leaving well enough alone, and going about their day trying not to step on too many toes. Educating people what not to do, without getting into the same slurry that makes people hate themselves is hard but important. It's all about teaching our kids better then we got, and trying to reform for a common good.

And no, we don't all face the same issues equally across the board. There is by no means any data I could put together that would say we've the same issues in every field of thought, sociopolitical, culture, counterculture, entertainment media or other key elements in this issue. It's to broad for anyone.

*shrugs* But, if it's to make you feel better, and to be slightly more accurate. We as men have our own social norms that effect us, some of which is oversexualization. It's why when they did studies, 55% of men said they dislike their own penis length. It's why Viagra and Penis pumps sell. Our heroes and who we compare ourselves to are just as unfair. We have social norms that effect us, and oppress us in similar ways for the people whom chose to allow it to effect them. Some can't be changed without a massive overhaul, but we're going in the right way. It's slow victories, but it's why Duke Nukem doesn't work these days. It's from a time we as a society was much harsher to the fairer sex. But, take in the harlequin romance novel, it's written generally by and for the female audience (I'm unsure to what percentage it's male to female writers, but I have noticed much more female writers on the shelf then male from my local stores.) Where in the female can change, grow, be different or even hold positions of power, but the males are all named MacGuffin. I could switch one overly muscled, sensitive, brainless hunk for another without having to change much more then hair color.

Is this what females want? Is it what the social norm for men should be if we're considering fair expectations?

We all find issues with how our gender is portrayed, and we all have an opinion on the matter, but I'd just as easily suggest making your own characters how you feel that gender should be treated. And maybe, just looking at the next person as a person regardless...

(God damn this took a while to consider. It's 2am. UM is prolly gunna shank me, and I might have added more if it was an earlier post. Alas, you always consider more in hindsight)

 

[Ahren]

I do not agree with a number of your points, but I just don't feel qualified to articulate my position in this discussion without coming across as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about, being that I am not a woman and cannot speak to my experiences with this stuff firsthand. Additionally I don't have the energy to do so right now.

Not that I don't appreciate your reply.

I will say that the Extra Credits episode on Harassment seems like it barely even addresses the issue at all. Normally I like those guys and think they get their points across well, but that one felt weak. Too much of the episode is spent talking about how auto muting people would make the community better, which I guess it kinda could in a way, but it never really seems to actually discuss the problem itself. How often it happens. Why it happens. Why it happens to women specifically, etc. That sort of thing.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

I'm not even sure what your point is.

*raises an eyebrow* Do you know how long the concept of the objectified rail thin woman became common? 1950. Honest, it's a fairly recent fad. Before the 50s, the women you went for was the wide hipped family girl. Before that it was the stout, working mother. Objectifying is something that transmutes through the ages.
Hell, for the majority of human existence, the large woman. The robust. That was the ideal in sexuality. In 1913 we coined the phrase rubenesque for art about large women. Why? Because they could give you something no one else could. A better chance at having a low child mortality rate.
With the over population, with the stay at home wife, with the visual media of the television and print magazines, and most importantly, with better quality of medicine and the lack of necessity for us to own our own farm, the idea of a socialite, of tall legs, and an hourglass figure began emerging.
It's something that happens. It's also something that changes so constantly that the quantifier that you determine your being held down for this generation could be what gives you the upper hand the next.
We're closing in on the day when objectifying will becomes a personal investment, where equality will set how we're objectified completely different from what it is today. When our inter-connectivity will swing fads so wildly that the necessity of just being you will come out of the chaos, simply because you can not please everyone. And you can't.
The next show of objectifying will be based on interests. You'll be quantified and looked at for your interests. Hell hopping about the internet, you'll see that we're starting to swing back into cliques. The gamers, the channers, the furries, the fantasy football leaguers. That is actually becoming stuff that are bleeding into the real world. Into the news, and pop culture, and humor, and sexuality. Watch the day you get stopped at the doors of a club because you're not wearing a school girl costume and cat ears might be around the corner.
Women are becoming a greater place in the marketplace. They are holding jobs and working their way into jobs that was always male dominated. They have an equal dollar value in low paying jobs, and are gaining the larger pay checks, and it's showing. The world is on the cusp of a change.
And men? We've had it just as bad. Greek statues have always shown men of physique. This image hasn't changed through out history. The heroes, the leaders. They all have been men of brawn. What happened when someone challenged this in media? We got Bacchus. Baron Munchhausen. Norm Peterson. Homer Simpson. Peter Griffin. Yah.
Being a fat guy means your an alcoholic, lazy, abusive, or a liar.


Er, what was I doing before I found this gem. Oh right. As for hyper sexualization, it's something that happens that creates a lasting image in the mind. How many commercials do you ignore on a daily basis? Your eyes will stop on an image of sexuality a second longer, and they might be able to sneak that body spray under your bullshit radar.



Oh, I would like them to expand the world of Dr. Horrible in the second film. I want to see more villains and heroes and their balance. Perhaps Dr. Horrible killing Moist, and having to redeem himself in an epic battle against Bad Horse for the sake of the world where he learns the valuable.. no.. he clones Penny, and reigns from atop Castle Horrible. Evil wins.