Lily's After Hours Club

[Vail_Indigo]

As for the rest, yes, the patriarchy (kyriarchy, I think), is bad for everyone.
Men end up with limited, unrealistic expectations of themselves, and of women as well. On top of that, they end up having fairly fucked up expectations of what relationships with women should be like.
THAT SAID (and if Aus were still around, she'd scold me for playing Oppression Olympics), there's really no comparison between the structured, systematic assault on women and the unfair crap men have to put up with.
I'm not saying either is right, just in different leagues.
More, much of the shit that comes at men is based on the assault on women.
But the fact that the US (and, while I know much of this goes on everywhere, my first hand experience is fairly limited to the US and I try to only talk about stuff I know) has such an incredibly bad relationship with sex and gender and the associated roles screws everyone over, though.
And as far as body image goes, while there's definitely issues for me, they aren't told, from day one, that their only worth is in being skinny (because thats the only way you get anyone to like you). While certainly there's always a lot of pressure to be attractive, men have a much wider range of acceptable bodytypes AND they are valued for their creativity, intelligence, success, artistry, etc.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

I do not agree with a number of your points, but I just don't feel qualified to articulate my position in this discussion without coming across as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about, being that I am not a woman and cannot speak to my experiences with this stuff firsthand. Additionally I don't have the energy to do so right now.

BTW, that is probably only the second time I've been part of this type of conversation at Lit and had a guy go "hey, you know what, since I haven't ever been a woman, maybe I shouldn't be quite so confident about thinking I know what its like to be a woman". Sadly, it doesn't seem to happen in real life very often either.
Regardless, thank you for not thinking that, as a man, your opinion on everything matters.

 

[Pain_Bauble]

BTW, that is probably only the second time I've been part of this type of conversation at Lit and had a guy go "hey, you know what, since I haven't ever been a woman, maybe I shouldn't be quite so confident about thinking I know what its like to be a woman". Sadly, it doesn't seem to happen in real life very often either.
Regardless, thank you for not thinking that, as a man, your opinion on everything matters.

... Yes, okay then. I'm not sure how to go about this one, but it does give me insight on your character as a person. See, what you've just said is opposing opinions do not matter. That there is no redeeming value for men to express their views on this subject.
If you don't get opposing views, if you don't hear from men, then you will not move forward. No one will place themselves in another persons shoes if they can not dissect the argument, and push their own opinion.
More then that, you won't gain any forward opinion, you'd be back in the day of "Go back to the kitchen honey, the men are talking." And as you're on here, and able to state your opinion in such a way shows we've moved passed that bullshit already. Guys are listening, and you want to cut them off from expressing themselves because they aren't the target audience? Who are you talking to then?

 

[Mister J]

Forgive me, I'm typing this on my phone while I should be working...

Anywho, I just wanted to say that there is no way that men are treated even nearly as bad as women are in regards to fair gender portrayal. In that way, yes, women have it bad and it is extremely unfair to them. I agree with Vail on that. Also, no I didn't ever mean to imply I'm some sort of expert on women. Far far from it. I just have an opinion, which I voice... often. Too often.

I happen to want stronger female characters in the media. Zoe from Firefly is one of my all time favorite characters. That show was chock full of stereotype breaking gender roles. One of the reasons I liked it so much. Funny point actually, sci fi and fantasy is one genre that has actually been the most progressive in its portrayal of gender roles.

So yeah. Not totally insensitive.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

... Yes, okay then. I'm not sure how to go about this one, but it does give me insight on your character as a person. See, what you've just said is opposing opinions do not matter. That there is no redeeming value for men to express their views on this subject.
If you don't get opposing views, if you don't hear from men, then you will not move forward. No one will place themselves in another persons shoes if they can not dissect the argument, and push their own opinion.
More then that, you won't gain any forward opinion, you'd be back in the day of "Go back to the kitchen honey, the men are talking." And as you're on here, and able to state your opinion in such a way shows we've moved passed that bullshit already. Guys are listening, and you want to cut them off from expressing themselves because they aren't the target audience? Who are you talking to then?

No, what I'm saying is that your opinion is inherently uninformed, just as mine is, say, on being black.
I'm not black, never have been black, and so I really can't know what it is like to be black.
I try not to speak about the experiences of others because I can't possibly know what they are like.
(I fail sometimes, because, like everyone, I have ego, but I TRY to remember that)
What I try to do is listen and learn.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Forgive me, I'm typing this on my phone while I should be working...

Anywho, I just wanted to say that there is no way that men are treated even nearly as bad as women are in regards to fair gender portrayal. In that way, yes, women have it bad and it is extremely unfair to them. I agree with Vail on that. Also, no I didn't ever mean to imply I'm some sort of expert on women. Far far from it. I just have an opinion, which I voice... often. Too often.

I happen to want stronger female characters in the media. Zoe from Firefly is one of my all time favorite characters. That show was chock full of stereotype breaking gender roles. One of the reasons I liked it so much. Funny point actually, sci fi and fantasy is one genre that has actually been the most progressive in its portrayal of gender roles.

So yeah. Not totally insensitive.

I never thought you were insensitive, just that you weren't looking at the big picture, and that you didn't fully understand the relentless onslaught of the kind of messages we've been talking about

 

[Mister J]

I never thought you were insensitive, just that you weren't looking at the big picture, and that you didn't fully understand the relentless onslaught of the kind of messages we've been talking about

Rest assured, I am well aware of the larger unfair media, legal, and social issues.

 

[Annisthyrienne]

I was thinking of this discussion when I was just in CVS to get some prescriptions filled. If you really want to know what Vail is talking about as a prime example just take a gander at the magazines aimed at women on the news stand next time you're in a store like that. Just look at the headlines on the featured articles. Look at the cover model and what kind of picture it is. How much clothing is she wearing? How much has the picture been airbrushed to get rid of her 'flaws'? Now how many 'tips' articles are there advertised on that cover about how to be sexual, how to be happy, how to be thin, how to lose weight, how to get a man, how to satisfy a man, and so, so many other inanities.

This is our culture.

You will find a couple men's magazines that show some ab perfect bodybuilder on the cover too. Count how many are oriented towards men like that versus how many are oriented towards women. The measure of a successful man, especially as he gets older, is his accomplishments in his career, etc. The measure of a successful woman as she gets older is how she remains so young looking, how she retains her body after having children, how she attracts a younger man as her 'boytoy' making her a 'cougar' (Note the predatory undertone here?) or if she is attractive enough to be a MILF. Kinda getting the idea here?

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Exactly.
And thats just magazines.
Add in TV, movies, talk shows, music videos, and just about anything else you can think of.
Constantly.
Relentlessly.
From the day you can first see.

Here's a diatribe by Ashley Judd because of some flack she's taken recently
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...or-speculation-over-her-puffy-appearance.html

Just to show you that no matter how beautiful you are, no matter how perfect, if there's even a single flaw, you are shit on. And, of course, the more perfect you are, the most questioned you become.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Again, this is only part of a much larger problem.

I was thinking of this discussion when I was just in CVS to get some prescriptions filled. If you really want to know what Vail is talking about as a prime example just take a gander at the magazines aimed at women on the news stand next time you're in a store like that. Just look at the headlines on the featured articles. Look at the cover model and what kind of picture it is. How much clothing is she wearing? How much has the picture been airbrushed to get rid of her 'flaws'? Now how many 'tips' articles are there advertised on that cover about how to be sexual, how to be happy, how to be thin, how to lose weight, how to get a man, how to satisfy a man, and so, so many other inanities.

This is our culture.

You will find a couple men's magazines that show some ab perfect bodybuilder on the cover too. Count how many are oriented towards men like that versus how many are oriented towards women. The measure of a successful man, especially as he gets older, is his accomplishments in his career, etc. The measure of a successful woman as she gets older is how she remains so young looking, how she retains her body after having children, how she attracts a younger man as her 'boytoy' making her a 'cougar' (Note the predatory undertone here?) or if she is attractive enough to be a MILF. Kinda getting the idea here?

 

[Annisthyrienne]

I do have to confess to discounting in the past the opinions and comments made by media focused celebrities. I tended to discount them as shallow and unimportant, primarily because they are usually about image: what image they portray, what they are seen to be projecting, etc. Most celebrities, in my opinion, are about as vapid intellectually as Barbie dolls. This goes for women and men as well.

But I must admit a certain respect after reading that piece. Not that she made any particularly brilliant points that haven't been made elsewhere, including here, just as well. But she did express herself well in that piece.

And I didn't intend to take an ultra feminist view in this discussion either. That's not really me, though for someone else, it's their passion, and that's fine. But I have been following this conversation and when I saw those magazines, it was just a blatant illustration of what you are saying, Vail. And we see those all the time. I usually try to ignore them, but you can't help but be exposed to them at least in passing.

I do have to observe that here on this 'porn board' is an odd place to have this debate. We discuss the issue here, and yet objectify our characters and post pictures of naked women for visual inspiration on another thread. A picture is, to me, the most objectifying expression of media because you can only see what is portrayed. There is nothing representing the personhood of the subject portrayed. All you can see is what they looked like in that moment. In that regard, it is a way of stopping time, I guess.

 

[Mister J]

Saw this and thought it relevant. Please don't hurt me... too much.

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m35hekkFJw1qel9m9o1_500.jpg

 

[chronicle_tenko]

I had something to say about all this. But it won't come out right. I'm still a guy. And no matter what I can say. Vail is right, women have it worse, the system is awful, and needs to change. That it is slowly doing so, makes no difference.

I agree with her. But my opinion is not useful.

The only thing I want to say is we argued about a promotional image where One Woman, Holding her own against 5 men. Showed some T&A.

And no one brought up, that she's a strong female character.

By no means a positive female role model. Or perfect. But certainly. A strong female character.

I thought we wanted more of them?

 

[Mister J]

I thought we wanted more of them?

I know I do! Mrrow!

Also, just love a woman who can kick my ass!

 

[Vail_Indigo]

I had something to say about all this. But it won't come out right. I'm still a guy. And no matter what I can say. Vail is right, women have it worse, the system is awful, and needs to change. That it is slowly doing so, makes no difference.

I agree with her. But my opinion is not useful.

The only thing I want to say is we argued about a promotional image where One Woman, Holding her own against 5 men. Showed some T&A.

And no one brought up, that she's a strong female character.

By no means a positive female role model. Or perfect. But certainly. A strong female character.

I thought we wanted more of them?

Any strength she might have had is seriously undermined by the fact that she's mostly porn.

 

[Mister J]

Any strength she might have had is seriously undermined by the fact that she's mostly porn.

That's not really fair though. A woman can be sexy and strong at the same time. For instance, my previous example of Zoe from Firefly. There's nothing wrong with a lil eye candy, as long as she contributes in other ways as well... which it looks like she will. I don't know though, I haven't seen the movie yet. But I have faith in Joss Whedon to not ruin her character.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

That's not really fair though. A woman can be sexy and strong at the same time. For instance, my previous example of Zoe from Firefly. There's nothing wrong with a lil eye candy, as long as she contributes in other ways as well... which it looks like she will. I don't know though, I haven't seen the movie yet. But I have faith in Joss Whedon to not ruin her character.

ANd if this was just a one-off, you'd be right.
The problem is (as I have been saying over and over and over and over and over and over and over again) that this ISN'T a one-off.
Virtually all female action heros are eye candy.
You HAVE to look at the big picture or you miss everything of meaning.

 

[Mister J]

ANd if this was just a one-off, you'd be right.
The problem is (as I have been saying over and over and over and over and over and over and over again) that this ISN'T a one-off.
Virtually all female action heros are eye candy.
You HAVE to look at the big picture or you miss everything of meaning.

Yeah Vail, I know. It's a huge terrible awful heinous bad epidemic. Thing is, I'm not talking about all that other jazz. I was just talking about Black Widow. Just her, in that one movie. Coming out May 4th, check your theaters. Midnight show. Be there.

I AGREE with you. Most of them are eye candy, yes. I know. I knowwwwww. It's baaaaad. I know. I'm right there with ya. Trust me. I'm there. With you. Right there. I got ya. Promise. Big picture. Right there. I see it.

 

[chronicle_tenko]

ANd if this was just a one-off, you'd be right.
The problem is (as I have been saying over and over and over and over and over and over and over again) that this ISN'T a one-off.
Virtually all female action heros are eye candy.
You HAVE to look at the big picture or you miss everything of meaning.

Bullshit.

Vail I'm Sorry. It Isn't a one off. It's a character that has been written as a strong and independent woman, in control of her own life and sexuality for almost 60 years.

ALL female characters in Comics are written as Eye Candy.

ALL male characters in Comics are written as Eye Candy. I am looking at the big picture. You're not looking at the small one.

You are saying right now, that because she's attractive, her other qualities don't matter, because she feeds the system.

You're right, but you're kicking every positive aside, to focus on a perceived negative.

Sorry Vail, I have to call that one.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Yeah Vail, I know. It's a huge terrible awful heinous bad epidemic. Thing is, I'm not talking about all that other jazz. I was just talking about Black Widow. Just her, in that one movie. Coming out May 4th, check your theaters. Midnight show. Be there.

I AGREE with you. Most of them are eye candy, yes. I know. I knowwwwww. It's baaaaad. I know. I'm right there with ya. Trust me. I'm there. With you. Right there. I got ya. Promise. Big picture. Right there. I see it.

headdesk
You CAN'T talk just about her.
Not on this topic.
Listen to me, don't listen to me, its up to you.
But don't say you are listening to me when you really aren't.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Bullshit.

Vail I'm Sorry. It Isn't a one off. It's a character that has been written as a strong and independent woman, in control of her own life and sexuality for almost 60 years.

ALL female characters in Comics are written as Eye Candy.

ALL male characters in Comics are written as Eye Candy. I am looking at the big picture. You're not looking at the small one.

You are saying right now, that because she's attractive, her other qualities don't matter, because she feeds the system.

You're right, but you're kicking every positive aside, to focus on a perceived negative.

Sorry Vail, I have to call that one.

And I am saying thats a very bad thing.
In fact, you are proving my point.
You are saying, in effect "Black Widow has been porn all along, just like every other woman in comics, so this is just continuing that"
Which is exactly what I'm saying. This is continuing a long line of objectification of women in comics (and pop-culture in general).

 

[Mister J]

headdesk
You CAN'T talk just about her.
Not on this topic.
Listen to me, don't listen to me, its up to you.
But don't say you are listening to me when you really aren't.

You're gonna get a headache if ya keep that up, silly.

I meant for that one example. Relax. Otherwise, like I said above, big picture. Gotcha.

 

[Annisthyrienne]

Gee, if a picture about a comic book woman stirred the shit that much, imagine what this will do......

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/1204/the-utilitarian-woman-breasts-milk-utilitarian-woman-hot-demotivational-posters-1334569889.jpeg

 

[Vail_Indigo]

OK, metaphor time.

When you look at your diet, you can't just look at the brownie you have every afternoon and say "a brownie every day is harmless". Not if you also have a big bowl of apple jacks in the morning, 4 slices of pizza for lunch, and then a couple candy bars after a dinner that includes a big side of french fries.
Any one of those things isn't horrible, but all together they are.

 

[chronicle_tenko]

And I am saying thats a very bad thing.
In fact, you are proving my point.
You are saying, in effect "Black Widow has been porn all along, just like every other woman in comics, so this is just continuing that"
Which is exactly what I'm saying. This is continuing a long line of objectification of women in comics (and pop-culture in general).

Ok. I apologise. Allow me to edit.

All Female characters are DRAWN as eye candy. Not written.

All Male Characters are DRAWN as eye candy. Not written.

I am not saying that the character has been written as porn. You are saying, that any choice, any character in any medium makes, or any development of character, or any facet of character does not matter.

If they are attractive they are pornographic, and nothing else about the character can or ever will matter.

Big picture.

 

[Mister J]

OK, metaphor time.

When you look at your diet, you can't just look at the brownie you have every afternoon and say "a brownie every day is harmless". Not if you also have a big bowl of apple jacks in the morning, 4 slices of pizza for lunch, and then a couple candy bars after a dinner that includes a big side of french fries.
Any one of those things isn't horrible, but all together they are.

Actually, those are all delicious.