Line Crossed

[ShelbyDawn57]

I had a guy message me yesterday in chat after he had read one of my stories that is written in first person. He told me how sexy I am and commented on how hot my experience was. I had to break it to him that the story was a fiction told by a woman who was in fact not me but just a figment of my imagination. I think that he had some mild disappointment upon hearing that news.

I've had at least a dozen offers to 'hook up' the next time X is in Austin based on my stories and my previous avatar. Just the other day, I got one that thought my current avatar - the one I put up to make sure no one thought it was really me, the one with wings - was actually me. While I am trans, and my stories do touch on some of my personal struggles, come on. This is erotic FICTION people. My avatar is an avatar, not a portrait.

 

[theMasterBaiter]

In an ethically healthy civilisation, all sex should be consensual. I do think that the more this is an expectation, the more shocking we find transgressions.

Ha! My very lowest rated story is exactly about this. LOL. Turns out people in the BDSM section don't like being told their kink is probably going to go away if society progresses. Or at least that's my excuse... it couldn't be piss poor writing after all, right? right? tap tap... is this thing on?

 

[theMasterBaiter]

Wow what a thread. What an excellent (for the most part) discussion of an important topic. THANK YOU to the op. I'm going to try to summarize a bit and raise a thought and generally try not to be a dick. Much. {note: sorry, this turned into a book.}

First, there were some comments about mind control which are very interesting to me as related to "corrigibility" (the opposite of incorrigibility, the resistance to change) which is a big deal in machine learning and AI guided robotics right now. That's an entire other discussion. The thought experiment there is "Hey, what if I could give you a pill to take and you wouldn't care about your kids / puppy / cat / car (whatever is dear to you) but you would be perfectly happy about it and, in fact, happier than you have ever been, want that?" And the answer is generally (lol) "NO!" That's exactly what we are asking AI to do after we program them with a goal and then decide it was a bad goal and we want to change it. Think about that for a second.

It relates because my thought / question / point is "Hey, read this story and even though you are certain you don't ever want to rape / be raped, after you read it, you WILL want that and will be really excited about it, want that?" The difference is, 1. stories are probably not that powerful (?) and 2. people choose to read stories and if they are in NC, did they really just not understand the tag?

Those are both serious questions, not meant to be rhetorical. I do NOT know the answer to those questions. I'm asking, not saying. Well... I'm commenting.

Can rape porn / erotica / fantasies really make you rape / seek rape? I've not really written or read anything in that area, at least not on purpose, but my experience has been that when I have thoughts in my head that I can't get rid of, writing them down helps me get rid of them. I wrote "The Lock" series in a few days because I couldn't get the idea out of my head. On the other hand, seeing an attractive women (or man, I'm bi) certainly fires me up and puts thoughts into my head. So does watching porn or reading erotics. Jacking off (note my user name) makes those thoughts vaporize. I don't know if I'm unusual or not.

Apparently, movies or video games that glorify violence do not cause violence (??? Or so the studies paid for by the game companies tell us. LOL) And if the site standards are to be fully embraced, erotica that encourages rape because "she will like it in the end" are no problem. (?) Again, I'm not saying, I'm asking.

My point is that this, in my mind, is the question. And my thought is: What sort of a story could be written which could make rape LESS likely. What stories can address it and point out the horror, the wrongness, and still be entertaining and positive? That's impossible.. probably. There are movies like "Apocalypse Now" and "Glory" which (I think) are violent as hell, but also condemn violence and war. And yet... they are a hell of a ride to watch.

I like writing very difficult stories. Challenging stories. Is a story like that, about rape, possible to write? If I can find a female editor / coauthor, we will see how badly I've failed.

 

[AlinaX]

The one thing a lot of erotica avoids is consequences, especially in NC/R. Being forced to enjoy something against your will can be hot, but less erotic is the traumatic response afterwards - if there even is an afterwards.

 

[StillStunned]

The one thing a lot of erotica avoids is consequences, especially in NC/R. Being forced to enjoy something against your will can be hot, but less erotic is the traumatic response afterwards - if there even is an afterwards.

If only there was a way to magically take the victim's suffering and share it with the perpertrator...

I know, it's only a sword & sorcery story, but I'm still quite proud of it.

 

[AlinaX]

If only there was a way to magically take the victim's suffering and share it with the perpertrator...

I know, it's only a sword & sorcery story, but I'm still quite proud of it.

I remember, long ago, reading a fantasy story set in a world where people were beset by ills corresponding to the evil they did. I often think about that.

ETA: Not Stephen Donaldon's trilogies, but they had an element of that too.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

And my thought is: What sort of a story could be written which could make rape LESS likely.

I could write one, a damn good one that would make the reader cry, feel helplessness, then perhaps anger or vengefulness. It would paint a real picture of rape, one that would give a true glimpse at the depth of non-consent and its aftermath. I could write that story and only a psychopath would think that there is anything pleasurable or fun in the experience. I can't imagine that this story would encourage anyone to commit rape, since a psychopath would do it anyway.

But I can't post this story on lit.

However, if I write a story where the victim got a surprise orgasm out of the deal and had a "it wasn't so bad," attitude at the end, I could totally see that bolstering an, "it's not so bad" attitude in a reader or two out there.

And those stories are not only allowed but encouraged on lit.

 

[lovecraft68]

This thread has been around, and I know I replied somewhere earlier on, so if this is repeated ignore it.

But the entire 'line crossed' issue is not with an author, but the site. It has a non consent section which would tell most people that rape stories are allowed and will submit them. If the site took this seriously they would cut out NC and leave the category at 'reluctance' or add dubious consent. There is a big difference between either of those and actual non con.

So this repeated topic only continues to repeat because of the site's disingenuous 'rule' and that is the correct word, when again you have a category titled non consent, and beyond that their inconsistent-and that is an understatement-enforcement of the rule, especially when it extends to the LW category where sexual assault and torture for titillation (another alleged rule in itself) often shows up there and is far nastier than the actual rape fantasy kink because its not a fantasy, but there is real malice there.

The Mind control category is 100% non consensual and they think people don't see that, so what's the difference if someone is drugged into being raped with no consent, or a plain non consent story? There is none to common sense, but Lit has always and forever will talk out of both sides of their mouth on some topics and never fix anything and....say it with me, don't like it, leave.

My suggestion isn't censoring NC stories, but just simply allow them and all this stops. There is no line, no rule, no half ass pick and choose enforcement that upsets people because their rape story was booted, but look at the hundred I found in an hour of looking. If you're like me and not a fan of that content, then we stay out of the category. You like it, have at it. Going further if it were me-me in charge of Lit would be epic fun, but not as bad as people here might think-I would put MC and NC in one category and have reluctance alone, because again, these are two different kinks.

Bottom line this topic and how its represented and discussed is all based on their smirking 'rules' and childish games of pretending they don't allow what they more often than not freely allow. They're the same model as amazon and anyone publishing there knows what I mean. Enforce your rule. or don't have one. Either works as long as its always that way.

Unfortunately, Lit wants to act like it has some type of ethics when they really don't have any. They don't need to, its their site, which makes the lies even more eye rolling. FWIW Underage is the same deal, plenty to be found on here including things that prove there is no way anyone really cares that much about it.

 

[SimonDoom]

My point is that this, in my mind, is the question. And my thought is: What sort of a story could be written which could make rape LESS likely. What stories can address it and point out the horror, the wrongness, and still be entertaining and positive? That's impossible.. probably. There are movies like "Apocalypse Now" and "Glory" which (I think) are violent as hell, but also condemn violence and war. And yet... they are a hell of a ride to watch.

This is an interesting question. I've been thinking about it, and I don't have an answer.

My not-at-all-scientific opinion about the relationship between rapists in the real world and nonconsent stories is that many people have the cause and effect backwards. It's likely that people who already are predisposed to rape seek out certain kinds of stories. I suppose it's POSSIBLE that the stories trigger them or encourage them to act out, but it seems pretty speculative to me. If you write a story in a manner intended to discourage people from doing harm in the real world, then the people predisposed to commit that harm, it seems to me, are unlikely to look for or ever read your story. Those who might be influenced by your story likely are those you never had to worry about in the first place.

So, the short answer is I can't think of an erotic story one could write that would reduce the risk of rape in the real world, UNLESS one believes that rape stories have a cathartic or substitution effect and that being able to indulge in such stories in the online fantasy space reduces the desire to act out the impulse in the real world. I'm agnostic on that issue, although I think it's plausible.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

My suggestion isn't censoring NC stories, but just simply allow them and all this stops. There is no line, no rule, no half ass pick and choose enforcement that upsets people because their rape story was booted, but look at the hundred I found in an hour of looking. If you're like me and not a fan of that content, then we stay out of the category. You like it, have at it.

Exactly.

I will say that lit can make any rule that it wants and I will respect that. I'm not saying that lit is wrong for having this rule (never have). I am simply very disappointed in this silly hypocritical rule that tragically and ironically might just do the opposite of what it intends - glorify non-consent.

 

[AlinaX]

Mind Control (although not so much the hypno side of it) differs from NonCon in that it's magical wish-fulfilment for the most part. It is often non-consensual in nature, but in an unreal and sometimes quite childish way. It treats people as sexual objects, but the eroticism comes from the fantasy of power itself rather than the brutality of dominance and fear.

 

[SimonDoom]

My suggestion isn't censoring NC stories, but just simply allow them and all this stops. There is no line, no rule, no half ass pick and choose enforcement that upsets people because their rape story was booted, but look at the hundred I found in an hour of looking. If you're like me and not a fan of that content, then we stay out of the category. You like it, have at it. Going further if it were me-me in charge of Lit would be epic fun, but not as bad as people here might think-I would put MC and NC in one category and have reluctance alone, because again, these are two different kinks.

Bottom line this topic and how its represented and discussed is all based on their smirking 'rules' and childish games of pretending they don't allow what they more often than not freely allow. They're the same model as amazon and anyone publishing there knows what I mean. Enforce your rule. or don't have one. Either works as long as its always that way.

I think what this comes down to is how much you are bothered by inconsistency and seeming "hypocrisy." I haven't researched this issue in the noncon and LW category but for the sake of argument I'll take your word for it that Literotica allows a lot of stories to "get by" that do not satisfy the "they must enjoy it" rule, so they're not meeting their standards. I don't personally see this as much as you seem to claim it exists, but I don't read these stories often so I'm not an expert. Let's assume you are right about the inconsistency.

Some people are terribly bothered by that inconsistency, and I think you're one of them, and you'd rather see consistency even if it means allowing more unpleasant rapey nonconsent stories.

That's not an unusual point of view, but it's not mine. I think hypocrisy is a minor sin, and I think inconsistency doesn't matter that much. I'd rather see a leaky fence than no fence. This is why I think the "she must enjoy it" rule, though daft in real world terms, makes perfect sense, even if it is inconsistently applied.

I've read every kind--and I mean EVERY kind-- of erotic story at one point or another over the years, here and elsewhere, and there are other sites that place no limit at all on stories where it's clear that the author wants you to get off on accounts of people being hurt and feeling pain. I don't judge people who read or write those stories, but they're not my cup of tea, and I'd rather be associated with a site that imperfectly and inconsistently filters them out than with one that has no filter at all.

This strikes me as a good illustration of the validity of Emerson's statement that "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." I'm not accusing people who think this way here of having little minds, but I think it's a mistaken and unnecessary way to think, and an excessive focus on consistency over other, more important values. You're chasing a bone that simply isn't worth chasing.

 

[AlinaX]

many people have the cause and effect backwards

Content Warning: Sweeping Generalisation

My worry isn't individual stories so much as the impact of normalisation. Go back forty years and porn shoots ending with facials were seen as a little bizarre, and anal sex was something a little unusual and taboo. These days, both of these are almost de rigueur, to the point that many men who have grown up with the easy availability of free porn actually expect women to want and enjoy both.

ETA: Not that I have a problem with either of those, but I must admit the increasing popularity of face-fucking (which often strikes me as quite violent) does disturb me a little.

 

[SimonDoom]

Going further if it were me-me in charge of Lit would be epic fun, but not as bad as people here might think-I would put MC and NC in one category and have reluctance alone, because again, these are two different kinks.

I agree with you that ethically and conceptually Mind Control is simply a subset of Nonconsent, but that's not what matters. What matters is reader preference. I think there is a longstanding perception among erotica readers that Mind Control is a different kind of story from a Noncon story, and there are people who look for the one but not the other. So having separate categories makes perfect sense. It has nothing to do with ethics. Ethics is irrelevant for categorization. All that matters is enhancing the ability of readers to connect with the stories they want.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

My not-at-all-scientific opinion about the relationship between rapists in the real world and nonconsent stories is that many people have the cause and effect backwards. It's likely that people who already are predisposed to rape seek out certain kinds of stories. I suppose it's POSSIBLE that the stories trigger them or encourage them to act out, but it seems pretty speculative to me. If you write a story in a manner intended to discourage people from doing harm in the real world, then the people predisposed to commit that harm, it seems to me, are unlikely to look for or ever read your story. Those who might be influenced by your story likely are those you never had to worry about in the first place.

I'll go one better. I have actually (on other sites) engaged in roleplays where I play a rape victim, and at least as often as not, my partner (playing the rapist) stops the play once he sees my realistic portrayal. I've had a couple of guys tell me "It's too real and I'm a bit creeped out. I'm sorry that I have to stop the play."

This leads me to believe that rape is just largely misunderstood by the masses. It's just not talked about enough. The reason that people are into it (as a fantasy) is because they think it might be a bit of fun to play. These aren't psychopaths. These are normal people who just have not given the topic much thought. This is not their fault. If rape does not touch you in any more that a superficial way, why would you give it that much thought. Yes, we know it's bad, but so is stealing cars, etc. Once they get a glimpse of how emotionally scarring rape can be, it sheds a whole new light on things and any decent human being almost certainly takes the matter more seriously and has stronger feelings and opinions against rape and the fantasy tends to fade (not that I'm out to judge the fantasy or kill it in anyway - the fantasy itself is as harmless as any other).

So actually, I do believe that realistic bad end rape stories can and in fact would discourage real world rape.

 

[SimonDoom]

Content Warning: Sweeping Generalisation

My worry isn't individual stories so much as the impact of normalisation. Go back forty years and porn shoots ending with facials were seen as a little bizarre, and anal sex was something a little unusual and taboo. These days, both of these are almost de rigueur, to the point that many men who have grown up with the easy availability of free porn actually expect women to want and enjoy both.

I qualified it with "many." I didn't say "all."

I think it's accurate because I see the post hoc ergo propter hoc argument made often by critics of erotic content.

There's also an apples and oranges thing here. I have no doubt that porn has changed expectations about sex, but that's not "bad" in the sense that encouraging people to commit rape is bad. The net impact of porn on people's sex lives might actually be positive, because it's exposed people to so many ways of doing things they never thought of before. Many people find out they actually DO enjoy anal sex and facials, so for those people the porn exposure might be a good thing.

 

[AlinaX]

I qualified it with "many." I didn't say "all."

I think it's accurate because I see the post hoc ergo propter hoc argument made often by critics of erotic content.

There's also an apples and oranges thing here. I have no doubt that porn has changed expectations about sex, but that's not "bad" in the sense that encouraging people to commit rape is bad. The net impact of porn on people's sex lives might actually be positive, because it's exposed people to so many ways of doing things they never thought of before. Many people find out they actually DO enjoy anal sex and facials, so for those people the porn exposure might be a good thing.

lol, the content warning was for my post, not yours.

 

[lovecraft68]

Mind Control (although not so much the hypno side of it) differs from NonCon in that it's magical wish-fulfilment for the most part. It is often non-consensual in nature, but in an unreal and sometimes quite childish way. It treats people as sexual objects, but the eroticism comes from the fantasy of power itself rather than the brutality of dominance and fear.

In every aspect of MC, be it hypnosis, a drug, a magic talisman, a spell, a sci fi personality changing ray....there is no consent being given, they are being controlled.

Childish or not, these are rape stories, and TBH most rapists, especially serial rapists in real life, aren't exactly brain trusts, more like malicious nasty children.

I have no issue with the NC kink itself, but FFS I wish people would stop trying to explain it away.

Its as bad as the people who say they don't have a beastie kink because the dog in the story has an extra head.

Own the kink, we're all adults here.

 

[AlinaX]

In every aspect of MC, be it hypnosis, a drug, a magic talisman, a spell, a sci fi personality changing ray....there is no consent being given, they are being controlled.

Childish or not, these are rape stories, and TBH most rapists, especially serial rapists in real life, aren't exactly brain trusts, more like malicious nasty children.

I have no issue with the NC kink itself, but FFS I wish people would stop trying to explain it away.

Its as bad as the people who say they don't have a beastie kink because the dog in the story has an extra head.

Own the kink, we're all adults here.

? I did say it was often non-con. My point, really, is that it leaves a different aftertaste.

 

[SimonDoom]

lol, the content warning was for my post, not yours.

My bad!

 

[alohadave]

Go back forty years and porn shoots ending with facials were seen as a little bizarre

FWIW, facials have always seemed really weird to me. I understand why the industry likes them, but it doesn't seem like something that most people would want IRL.

 

[Comshaw]

As always this discussion sparked by AlinaX's original post has meandered from here to there and back again. That's not to say it is a terrible thread. I like it that way because many different facets of the same subject are covered and I get to hear lots of different viewpoints. That said let me toss in my measly little two cents worth.

First off, non-consensual sex by definition is rape. Calling it one thing, trying to imply it isn't what it is won't change what it truly is. ANY TIME one person is forced or coerced into sex when they do not want to, it's rape, pure and simple. It doesn't matter if the female later decides she liked it. At the time it was carried out, she was forced into it against her will. Dressing up rape as "non-con" is nothing more than an attempt to disguise the former as something not so bad.

That said, rape in RL and rape in fantasy (in one's head or on a page in story) are two distinctly different things. Many women have rape fantasies. The thing about fantasies though is they are safe. At any time the person fantasising can stop it and step out of it. Even if they role play with someone they can call a halt to it. Not so with a real rape. I do not believe there are many, if any women that want to go through the sheer terror of losing all control.

Mind control of any kind is just another way of tagging rape with a more acceptable moniker. Yes, people see it as being different than noncon. In reality it has the same outcome, forcing a person to do something against their will. ANY TIME a person is forced to engage in sex against their will it's rape. Drugs, slut beam, magic, and even hypnosis used to make a person do something they wouldn't normally do is rape.

It has been mentioned that a person under hypnosis can't be forced to do something they do not want to do. That is true, but what it can do is allow a person to do things they want to do, or believe they must do, that under normal circumstances they would not do. Hypnosis deals as much with the subconscious mind as the conscious one. As an example a story I've started and am working on: the guy hypnotizes a woman and while under hypnosis he questions her. She admits that she believes he has total control over her while she is hypnotized and she must do whatever he wants her to whether she wants to or not. When he tells her he wants sex she admits that normally she wouldn't do it but since she is hypnotized she must. Is it rape? Damn straight it is because she believes she isn't in control.

And just because a female has an orgasm during rape doesn't mean she liked or will later like it. I know for a fact a female can have an orgasm while being raped and not enjoy it. It adds a layer of complication to the rape that can add some mixed feelings when she begins to try to work out the emotional/phycological damage a rape has done. Think about trying to reconcile those two things, the terror of being held down and sexually assaulted against your will with the physical pleasure of an orgasm you didn't want but were forced to have. Years of self-recriminations, "did I really want it to happen? If not why did I have a climax?"

As far as the site and its rules, whether or not I like them they are the rules. I can ask for them to be changed, or rail against them if I see them but push come to shove, when I've done everything I can to change them and the powers that be have decided to do what they will, all I can do is decide to leave or stay. That doesn't mean I have to quit muttering about it, it only means there isn't a damn thing left I can do about it and I can pick at it or ignore it. When it gets to the point, I'm an ignore-it kinda' guy.

Does all that palaver mean I won't or haven't written a noncon story? Not hardly. As I said way up yonder, fantasy is fantasy and reality is reality and the two are distinct and totally different. Because I write a fantasy about a rape doesn't mean I'm going to (or ever have) run out and throw some poor woman down and sexually assault her.

Okay, all done. NEXT!



Comshaw

 

[Comshaw]

? I did say it was often non-con. My point, really, is that it leaves a different aftertaste.

True, but hazelnut-flavored coffee and Italian roast coffee while tasting different are, at the base still coffee.

After all the words I put down up there, I forgot to address your original post. My bad.

I agree there are lines I won't cross, stories I won't read because they give me that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. That doesn't mean I think they should be deleted or that they should never have been written. It only means that because of my own experience and psychological make up I can't and won't read them. I hate black licorice. I absolutely despise the stuff, but I don't believe it should be taken out of all the stores and burned, because there are those who do like it. It ain't mine to tell someone else what they should enjoy.

'nuff said

Comshaw

 

[yowser]

It's fascinating to me that so many strict constructionists automatically make Mind Control equal to Rape, which demonstrates a lack of imagination in the story-telling enterprise. My only MC story is odd, but light years away from a rape story. It may well be that Most MCs fit the bill, but the error of over-generalising persists. There are lots of ways to tell a tale.

 

[Comshaw]

It's fascinating to me that so many strict constructionists automatically make Mind Control equal to Rape, which demonstrates a lack of imagination in the story-telling enterprise. My only MC story is odd, but light years away from a rape story. It may well be that Most MCs fit the bill, but the error of over-generalising persists. There are lots of ways to tell a tale.

Hmmmm...If they wanted to then mind control isn't required because they wanted to. If they didn't want to and mind control is used, it isn't consensual and by definition rape. If there is a third way to see it please explain how controlling someone's mind (and it doesn't matter a whit how) to engage in sex isn't rape.

Comshaw