Line Crossed

[AlinaX]

I've definitely read at least one story here where one person asks another to change her mind for her.

But really, Mind Control can be a whole lot of fun, if done well.

ETA: My most read story is a rather nasty piece of Mind Control that spawned a darkly entertaining series.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

It's fascinating to me that so many strict constructionists automatically make Mind Control equal to Rape, which demonstrates a lack of imagination in the story-telling enterprise. My only MC story is odd, but light years away from a rape story. It may well be that Most MCs fit the bill, but the error of over-generalising persists. There are lots of ways to tell a tale.

It's because 99% (hyperbole but you get the idea) of mind control stories are written as non-con. That does not mean that 99% of mind control stories have to be, or will be.

Hmmmm...If they wanted to then mind control isn't required because they wanted to. If they didn't want to and mind control is used, it isn't consensual and by definition rape. If there is a third way to see it please explain how controlling someone's mind (and it doesn't matter a whit how) to engage in sex isn't rape.

Here's how. I think that most of us have fantasies that we'd like to do but are too ashamed or afraid to do, even simple things like fucking in a room full of people. Personally I find the idea hot. I'd like to do it some time if I get the chance, but if I do get that chance I doubt that I would ever have the guts. However, we also know that many of us lose our inhibitions when we drink a bit too much. I don't mean having a spiked drink. I mean choosing to have too much. That would not be much different than being hypnotized to remove one's inhibitions to do something that one deep down actually wanted to do, and would not be different at all from someone asking to be hypnotized to remove such inhibitions. It would definitely be mind control and it would not be non-con.

Of course the vast majority of mind control stories are simply magic schemes to get into girls' pants by guys who otherwise can't get into girls' pants. "Dammit I can't get laid. I know! What if I had a secret slut app on my phone?" Such stories not only usually lack imagination, they are also pretty much straight up non-con, for better or for worse.

 

[AlinaX]

I... uh, that's fair.

 

[Comshaw]

It's because 99% (hyperbole but you get the idea) of mind control stories are written as non-con. That does not mean that 99% of mind control stories have to be, or will be.



Here's how. I think that most of us have fantasies that we'd like to do but are too ashamed or afraid to do, even simple things like fucking in a room full of people. Personally I find the idea hot. I'd like to do it some time if I get the chance, but if I do get that chance I doubt that I would ever have the guts. However, we also know that many of us lose our inhibitions when we drink a bit too much. I don't mean having a spiked drink. I mean choosing to have too much. That would not be much different than being hypnotized to remove one's inhibitions to do something that one deep down actually wanted to do, and would not be different at all from someone asking to be hypnotized to remove such inhibitions. It would definitely be mind control and it would not be non-con.

Of course the vast majority of mind control stories are simply magic schemes to get into girls' pants by guys who otherwise can't get into girls' pants. "Dammit I can't get laid. I know! What if I had a secret slut app on my phone?" Such stories not only usually lack imagination, they are also pretty much straight up non-con, for better or for worse.

If someone intentionally had too much to drink to remove inhibitions and then engaged in sex, that is consensual because they made a conscious choice to do so. The same with asking to be hypnotized to remove inhibitions. It's a conscious choice and therefore consensual, IE; she consented to the hypnosis which led to the sex.

On the other hand, if a guy hypnotized a girl to remove those inhibitions without her consent, then had sex with her that is non-consensual by definition because she did not consent to the mind control that removed the inhibitions even if she consented to the sex afterward. It all comes down to one simple concept: she MUST agree and consent to sex of her own free will. Manipulating her into a situation where she has no choice or can't make that choice of her own free will is, to spruce it up non-consensual or to be downright honest, rape.

Comshaw

 

[Voboy]

The most ardent feminist I know is also deeply into CNC.

She can't figure that out, either.

It's not a "comfortable" topic to raise, except anonymously on a site like this (or alone with your therapist). And unfortunately, we're not going to be able to get the depth of attention this subject deserves, either way.

 

[SimonDoom]

If someone intentionally had too much to drink to remove inhibitions and then engaged in sex, that is consensual because they made a conscious choice to do so.

I'd say this depends. If a woman has too much to drink and it impairs her awareness to the point that it is questionable whether she has the power to consent, and IF a man is conscious of her condition and takes advantage of it, I don't think that's necessarily consent. Getting drunk isn't the same as issuing a blank check to another person to have sex with you. It's more complicated than that.

 

[yowser]

Hmmmm...If they wanted to then mind control isn't required because they wanted to. If they didn't want to and mind control is used, it isn't consensual and by definition rape. If there is a third way to see it please explain how controlling someone's mind (and it doesn't matter a whit how) to engage in sex isn't rape.

Comshaw

Well, we can argue about definitions but I will emphasise interpretations. I don’t have much interest in MC or Noncon as either a reader or writer (although I have written both, and have found good stories to read in both categories here.) I have subzero interest in rape, but I take issue with blanket statements.

I interpret MC broadly: it does not have to be someone doing the mind control, and to pick a specific example, in my story The Magic Pen (Der Zauberfüller) there is an item (a pen, although in other MC stories it could be a magic thong, a special hat, an amulet, pick your item) that exerts control over the ‘victim.’ Is this Noncon? One could certainly argue that. Is it MC (a mind is being controlled, but not by ‘someone’)? I say yes.

I do not think any reasonable person would characterise my story as ‘rape’ although the ‘victim’ certainly engages in activities that fit the noncon concept. But it effectively belongs in MC. My one story in Noncon involves some blackmail, but also in no way could be characterised as rapey.

And I also point you to real life, and the fact here on Lit that the Noncon category also includes ‘reluctance’ in its specific description. I have never been raped, or even close to that. Have I had women come on to me, and I ended up in situations that were perhaps not consensual in a perfect sense? You bet. Consent was not explicit but I found myself in murky waters. Could I have opted out? Probably, possibly, but it’s not always easy to say. Real life is complicated, and I think trying to make eroticism a black and white affair is misguided.

And that’s my main point, there can be a lot of ambiguity in sex, just like everything else in life. My objection in this discussion is what I believe are overstrict, too tightly bound, interpretations, when the stories (and real life) have nuance and subtlety. And I argue that those qualities are not only fine in erotic writing but can make for superior stories.

 

[AlinaX]

Similarly, there are a tonne of stories here where an automatic mechanism inflicts pleasure on an unsuspecting or helpless victim. (Please tell me I haven’t read all of them.)

There are stories where there’s an unseen human other that is in control. (I’m a lot less comfortable about these.)

There are stories where it is alien creatures and monstrous plants that have no interest in human ethics. (Okay, tell me more…)

And then there are stories where humans take what they want with varying degrees of compassion for the victim. (Hmm.)

 

[Comshaw]

I'd say this depends. If a woman has too much to drink and it impairs her awareness to the point that it is questionable whether she has the power to consent, and IF a man is conscious of her condition and takes advantage of it, I don't think that's necessarily consent. Getting drunk isn't the same as issuing a blank check to another person to have sex with you. It's more complicated than that.

I agree with what you said. However my statement was, "If someone intentionally had too much to drink to remove inhibitions...". They intentionally drink to excess to remove their inhibitions so they can have sex. I didn't mean to imply that getting drunk was content in and of itself. It isn't in any way shape or form. But how would a guy know? She would have to make it plain she wanted to have sex, even if she was drunk. While being drunk doesn't mean she is consenting to sex, it does not remove her right to consent to it either.

Well, we can argue about definitions but I will emphasise interpretations. I don’t have much interest in MC or Noncon as either a reader or writer (although I have written both, and have found good stories to read in both categories here.) I have subzero interest in rape, but I take issue with blanket statements.

I interpret MC broadly: it does not have to be someone doing the mind control, and to pick a specific example, in my story The Magic Pen (Der Zauberfüller) there is an item (a pen, although in other MC stories it could be a magic thong, a special hat, an amulet, pick your item) that exerts control over the ‘victim.’ Is this Noncon? One could certainly argue that. Is it MC (a mind is being controlled, but not by ‘someone’)? I say yes.

I do not think any reasonable person would characterise my story as ‘rape’ although the ‘victim’ certainly engages in activities that fit the noncon concept. But it effectively belongs in MC. My one story in Noncon involves some blackmail, but also in no way could be characterised as rapey.

And I also point you to real life, and the fact here on Lit that the Noncon category also includes ‘reluctance’ in its specific description. I have never been raped, or even close to that. Have I had women come on to me, and I ended up in situations that were perhaps not consensual in a perfect sense? You bet. Consent was not explicit but I found myself in murky waters. Could I have opted out? Probably, possibly, but it’s not always easy to say. Real life is complicated, and I think trying to make eroticism a black and white affair is misguided.

And that’s my main point, there can be a lot of ambiguity in sex, just like everything else in life. My objection in this discussion is what I believe are overstrict, too tightly bound, interpretations, when the stories (and real life) have nuance and subtlety. And I argue that those qualities are not only fine in erotic writing but can make for superior stories.

First off let me address your last point. I never said nor meant to imply that rape in an erotic story isn't "...fine in erotic writing...". My point has been that NC is nothing more than rape with a different moniker to make it appear more acceptable and that the majority of "mind control" stories can be lumped into that category. So, with that in mind...

That certainly is a mind-control story. No doubt about that. I agree there can be a lot of ambiguity in sex. I also will agree there are a few ways that mind-control would not be rape and the scenario you presented is one of them, IE; a male having sex with a female that is being controlled by an outside force and the male knows nothing about it. If he knew she was being controlled by an outside force, impelled to do it and still had sex with her, it is rape.

However that isn't the premise of the majority of midcontrol stories. To clarify the point I was trying to make, those stories where the male knowingly controls a female's mind to have sex with her against her will is rape.

I think it all comes down to a couple of questions as a test: Is the female having sex without her conscious, freewill consent? If yes to the first question, does the male know she isn't or is he complicit in her inability to choose? Yes to both of those equals rape.

Comshaw

 

[alohadave]

They intentionally drink to excess to remove their inhibitions so they can have sex. I didn't mean to imply that getting drunk was content in and of itself. It isn't in any way shape or form. But how would a guy know? She would have to make it plain she wanted to have sex, even if she was drunk. While being drunk doesn't mean she is consenting to sex, it does not remove her right to consent to it either.

If someone is so incapacitatedly drunk, then it's arguable that they are not capable of giving consent at that time, no matter what they may have stated in the past.

 

[AlinaX]

A bit like the question of whether you can consent to being fucked while you sleep.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

However that isn't the premise of the majority of midcontrol stories. To clarify the point I was trying to make, those stories where the male knowingly controls a female's mind to have sex with her against her will is rape.

Agree, but that does not make the category of mind control itself inherently non-con, even if the category is overwhelmed by non-con stories.

Interracial is overwhelmed by BBC stories, yet the interracial category is not inherently BBC - at all. The door is simply open and BBC is who walks in the most.

Likewise, despite mind control category being overwhelmed by non-con, the mind control category is not inherently non-con - at all. The door is simply open and non-con is who walks in the most.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Mind control could certainly explore much more than rape or sex. Mind control can be via telepathy or other means. The other means might be a much more compelling tale than some reaching into a person's conscience with their mind. Warping perception through advertisement, torture, seduction (not necessarily sexual seduction), grooming (again, it doesn't have to be about sex), politics, religion, and whatever else might be used, drugs or ungodly experiments.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

If only there was a way to magically take the victim's suffering and share it with the perpertrator...

I know, it's only a sword & sorcery story, but I'm still quite proud of it.

This was an excellent story!

I too wrote a Twisted Tale about a rapist getting a taste of his own medicine, but I think I may like yours even better.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Btw, since Mind Control got brought up, I would like to point something out that I've noticed.

In writing my Dystopian Mind Control story, I joined the discord server of another author who specializes in that genre.

Their fans are mostly fine, and the majority of them seem to have a firm grasp on the distinction between fantasy and reality.

They claim to love the allure of power, but (at least in the open) the majority of them seem to know that it would be wrong to subvert the will of another and use them sexually.

Okay... so far so good.

But do you know what I've noticed?

An unusually high percentage of MC fans that I've met have revealed that they have been diagnosed somewhere on the autism spectrum.

Now for the record, I am NOT intending to disparage neurodivergent people, lump people together, or make any unfounded claims.

That being said, it seems to me pretty logical to think that those who struggle understanding social cues and sometimes have trouble relating to the men/women they are sexually attracted to, would be more prone to fantasize about just getting those people to fall in line with their desires.

Does that seem reasonable, or am I coming across as a bigot?

 

[MillieDynamite]

I don't know about bigot, but um, you ain't normal, are you?

Btw, since Mind Control got brought up, I would like to point something out that I've noticed.

In writing my Dystopian Mind Control story, I joined the discord server of another author who specializes in that genre.

Their fans are mostly fine, and the majority of them seem to have a firm grasp on the distinction between fantasy and reality.

They claim to love the allure of power, but (at least in the open) the majority of them seem to know that it would be wrong to subvert the will of another and use them sexually.

Okay... so far so good.

But do you know what I've noticed?

An unusually high percentage of MC fans that I've met have revealed that they have been diagnosed somewhere on the autism spectrum.

Now for the record, I am NOT intending to disparage neurodivergent people, lump people together, or make any unfounded claims.

That being said, it seems to me pretty logical to think that those who struggle understanding social cues and sometimes have trouble relating to the men/women they are sexually attracted to, would be more prone to fantasize about just getting those people to fall in line with their desires.

Does that seem reasonable, or am I coming across as a bigot?

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I don't know about bigot, but um, you ain't normal, are you?

Oh, certainly not.

No woman who writes noncon stories half as much as I do could ever be considered "normal".

But I'm not on the autism spectrum.

And I do think there is a correlation between struggling to understand the emotions of others, and fantasizing about having the power to impose your emotions on others

 

[MillieDynamite]

Could be!

Oh, certainly not.

No woman who writes noncon stories half as much as I do could ever be considered "normal".

But I'm not on the autism spectrum.

And I do think there is a correlation between struggling to understand the emotions of others, and fantasizing about having the power to impose your emotions on others

 

[AlinaX]

The superpower to make neurotypical people self-aware...

 

[StillStunned]

This was an excellent story!

I took wrote a Twisted Tale about a rapist getting a taste of his own medicine, but I think I may like yours even better.

Thanks! It sprang in part from the "Writing unpleasant characters" thread from a while ago. It was quite liberating to write a nasty person, so you can do nasty things to them.

ETA: I just read your story, and I enjoyed it too. You did an excellent job of making Anthony a pretty awful character who's still believable. The hot sex is a bonus.

 

[sexsutra]

The length people have gone to justify rape stories here. Simply wow!!
Some have, so far, gone ahead with adding the term consensual and making it "consensual non-con", as if it's going to make make the wrong any right when this site literally called it NonConsent not "Consensual NonConsent".
Just cuz you've written on it & trying to defend it, doesn't make it any better.

 

[nice90sguy]

If I want concensual sex, I'll just ask my wife. All my writing is non-con to some extent, partly because that's where it belongs -- in fiction, where it's safe. And BTW in my case it's femdom, because, well, it's fiction. The only rape fantasies I have are as the "victim". I guess people don't compain about stories of men being abused by women so much, because its just not a real-world issue, and usually just a male fantasy.
Mind control is the category I post in, because I don't like stories about physical domination, which to me is a much less realistic way for women to gain dominance over men than mental and emotional manipluation.

 

[AlinaX]

The length people have gone to justify rape stories here. Simply wow!!
Some have, so far, gone ahead with adding the term consensual and making it "consensual non-con", as if it's going to make make the wrong any right when this site literally called it NonConsent not "Consensual NonConsent".
Just cuz you've written on it & trying to defend it, doesn't make it any better.

You are, of course, entitled to draw whatever lines you like, but you seem to have strayed into moral outrage.

I would say the main objection to CNC is that it's play acting and not actually non-con. This is interesting in real life, but kinda sucks as a story.

Arguably also, non-con stories, being ultimately fictional, are themselves a form of CNC. Author and reader agree to pretend the story is real, safe in the knowledge that either can stop at any point.

 

[SimonDoom]

The length people have gone to justify rape stories here. Simply wow!!
Some have, so far, gone ahead with adding the term consensual and making it "consensual non-con", as if it's going to make make the wrong any right when this site literally called it NonConsent not "Consensual NonConsent".
Just cuz you've written on it & trying to defend it, doesn't make it any better.

I've always thought moral outrage is a bad fit with this forum, or with an erotic story site, generally.

Nobody is "justifying" rape stories, and nobody has to. People fantasize about what they fantasize about, and they should be able to, guilt-free. It's not your business, and it's not anybody else's. It's a well-documented fact that women--many, many women--have rape fantasies. People enjoy erotic stories where they can fantasize about their control being taken away from them. It should be noted, in response to those who seem to think this is a sicko male fantasy, that rape fantasy is more often a women's fantasy, from the victim's point of view, than it is a fantasy from the rapist's point of view.

"Making a wrong right"? What wrong? What's wrong with people having their fantasies? They're going to have them whether you approve or disapprove. You cannot control what people fantasize about, nor should we want to.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I don't like stories about physical domination, which to me is a much less realistic way for women to gain dominance over men than mental and emotional manipluation.

I agree. There are plenty of physical femdom stories on Lit that read as maledom ones, and freedom of thought in fiction aside, I'd say they push forward the wrong idea. Happy to debate on this subject with anyone who prefers physical femdom stories.