Literotica Writer's Group, Round 1

[SteamyChik]

Feedback for cymbidia

(1) To introduce an unpleasantly memorable character (UMP) in the space of a one page vignette.

As I read the story, I didn't really find any of the characters especially unpleasant. The simpering gay guy, the cold director - just seemed normal for their roles. The actress seemed hot and tired. But none of them jumped out and shouted, "Hey! I'm the really memorable character!". I think this story has a lot of potential for having a UMP. If the director had been abusive physically or mentally (you know - sadistic ) in some way, then that might have helped. It could even have been the camera man being somehow menacing or creepy; or, the panty-fixer. Since we only have one page to do this in, I think devoted more of the page to developing the bad guy may have been a better way to approach it.

(2) To write persuasively in the first person.

I'm not sure what you mean by persuasively. Was the director suppose to be persuasive in getting the scene shot? Was the actress suppose to be persuasive in getting the gay guy to brush his teeth? I'm trying to find the persuasive angle. Once again, in a short piece like this, I would stick to one thing to concentrate on. Either character development, or persuasive argument. I think it would be hard to do both in 1 page.


(3) To get some feedback on the basics of sentence structure and word choices, especially with regard to describing characters. (It’s a known shortcoming for me.)

From reading it, it looks like the characters are described almost completely by their dialogue. sternly, coldly, exasperated severity My only suggestion is to bring the mannerism and description away from the dialogue per se and put it seperately. Since this is an area I have problems with, I'm not sure I can explain it very well .

Now all that aside, I thought it was really fun. I liked the idea it was a film shoot. One of the things I like about this whole story critiqueing thing is reading all the different whacky things we can come up with! Having the two romantic leads be a gay guy and a straight girl is funny. This story has the potential to take off in so many different directions that it makes my head hurt (in a good way).

Hope this helps, cym, I'm trying to make sense

 

[Bluetrain]

cymbidia feedback

you certainly seemed to have fun writing the vignette! Action, characterization, dialogue: all are peppy and in your face.

you do a wonderful job of appealing to the reader's senses. Smells, tastes, colors, sensations play a big part in your writing and though i can't quite visualize the characters, I can plainly see their actions and motions throughout the piece.

your opening dialogue is classic! what an attention getter. you just don't hear that at work everyday....

some questions:

killermuffin might have addressed this already, but how can you describe the characters more through their actions and what they DONT say, rather than rely heavily on dialogue descriptions? for example, what if you had started the story off with,

"You smell like garlic!"
"You taste like my lover's cock!" ?

Bam! I'm locked into the story and already am formulating opinions about these characters and their motives and personalities without a lot of dialogue description and tags. That can come later as you develop the characters. how can their physical description take the place of dialogue description?


i loved your simile, "like sandflies on seaweed at low tide." that's quite original

and i'm really interested in DAvy's role. is he JUST fixing her panties, or is something else going on that esteban and dmitri know about?

 

[Alex De Kok]

Temporarily Off-line

Having finally reorganised our smallest bedroom as an office, it's time to disconnect the 'puter and move it. Not as simple as it sounds, as it means dismantling and reassembling the desk to get it through a narrower doorway than it came in through!
I will therefore be offline for an indeterminate period, probably just hours, but could be a couple of days.
Don't start anything new without me, I'm enjoying this.

Alex

 

[Alex De Kok]

Back on-line

I'm back, and I bet you never missed me!

Alex

 

[Mickie]

Are we still doing this? Or has it faded out?

Mickie

 

[KillerMuffin]

I'm still trying to do this, but it seems to be fading out. I'm getting hung up on giving bluetrain feedback. The family keeps interfering when I'm trying to think.

Everyone else but steamychik seems to have faded off into the ether. Cym is taking a break, so doubt she'll be back here. So... well I'll still give feedback here.

Do you think this thing worked?

 

[Mickie]

Yeah, KM, I know what you mean. Family interrupts, the dog barks just when you have a coherent thought, and the world generally interferes. As for this working, I don't think there was enough going on with it to make it interesting enough to continue with. Perhaps, if it went on for a while, we could fine tune it until it really helped the authors.

One suggestion, though -- if we do another round, perhaps the authors could write in a single question about what they submit, and the feedback could stick to the question only, regardless of any other imperfections. That would focus the critiques in the area where the author really feels they need the focus. (It would also lessen the amount of time the critiquers need to spend on each piece, thus making it less likely that rl will interfere with the thought process.)

I still think this could be worth the effort of continuing, but it does require an inordinate amount of time for critiquing and writing. How about a round robin approach? Go through those who sign up and pick a week. Each week only one person would write and all the rest critique, changing authors once a week. Use the same pic for the first round, changing only after each author has had a chance to work on it. Does that make any sense, or am I confusing the issue?

Mickie

 

[KillerMuffin]

No, that makes perfect sense, Mickie.

Half the first time around and half the rest of the way.

 

[Bluetrain]

hey all,

killermuffin hit the proverbial existential "it" on the head when she wrote above, "I'm getting hung up on giving...feedback."

Thus falls the shadow. In other words, anytome you have a closed system like this, getting "hung up" is going to be a factor.

But there is a solution. IN fact, I don't think interest has faded much at all; look at the content and length of the earlier feedback. People were into this! Here's what I think happened, though:

I think many people felt as if they had to feedback to everyone. I certainly did. After I critiqued cymbidia's, mickey's, and a few others' stories, i became overwhelmed with trying to keep up with them as the rolled in. Finally, i realized that I couldn't give thoughtful feedback to everyone in the timeframe given and contented myself with what I had done.

Similarly, I was thankful to those who gave me feedback on my own entry, but i stopped looking for or expecting any more. If KM's hung (haha) up on giving me feedback, then its okay for her to drop it completely! Of course I would love to read her thoughts and advice, but that time has come and gone and its time to move on. I think once she posts a new picture, interest will quickly return. Time is a spiral; space is a curve....

However, a couple of caveats:

1. Perhaps all feedback should be prohibited until after a certain "deadline" for posting stories has passed. What happened in the first try was that someone posted a story, got feedback, then responded to that feedback; meanwhile, another story had been posted, and people began to get further and further behind.

2. Responding to feedback should be kept to a bare minimum, maybe even "restricted" to personal emails. I never responded to any feedback -- though i considered it all carefully and was thankful for everything people wrote -- simply because that once th efeedback was written, the exercise's purpose was effectively achieved. I'm not implying that a discourse isn't necessary -- it is! But it can be tond down a bit considering that this is a written forum, and not oral, realtime articulation.

If the "membership" attrition rate rises -- as it inevitably will -- that's okay. As long as more than two persons are participating, that's all that's necessary to get differing and valuable perspectives on one's writings.

Kudos to Km and everyone else for trying their best at this. We all have jobs and families and pets and sitting in front of the cathode tube for x amount of time can become a low priority. Yet its still valuable. Let's keep this going!

cheers,

b

 

[Guest]

This is SteamyChik (just realized I'm not registered at the moment for some reason)

I agree with Bluetrain - feedback on feedback gets the water too muddy. I like the idea of that being emails or pms.

I also like the idea of a round robin thing - but I suggest 2-3 authors a time (if there are that many but at least 2).

If the critique was limited to only 2 stories at a time, then the feedback can be more detailed.

Also, after the feedback begins to slow - just move right in to the next round of authors/stories.

I really like this but I also found giving feedback on so many stories daunting and very time consuming. I wanted to do it - just had a hard time getting to.

I hate to see the thread die though

 

[Alex De Kok]

Keep it going!

I too want this to go on. Like others, I found it hard work trying to give feedback on all of the other submissions, and in trying to do so, am conscious of the fact that I probably didn't do the best I could. I like the idea of limiting it to 2-3 at a time.

Am I right in thinking that the way to go is:

Beginning Week 1 - post subject
During week 1 - 'chosen few' work on submissions, and submit by end of week 1
During week 2 - critiques
Beginning week 3 - post next subject
During week 3 - next selection write and submit
During week 4 - critiques

and so on.

Is this OK, or do we need to post the second subject at the beginning of week 2 and overlap writing and crtiquing? I'm happy with the longer time scale - more time to think!

So far as feedback is concerned, I'm OK with e-mail or PM to the writer concerned, but are we copying to other members? Sometimes it's other comments that make me go 'yeah, right, duh!'

Are we being fair to Killermuffin in asking her to pick the subject matter? Should we take turns? Is it always to be a picture, or can it be a quote or similar?

I'll go with the flow,

Alex

 

[SteamyChik]

Are we being fair to Killermuffin in asking her to pick the subject matter? Should we take turns? Is it always to be a picture, or can it be a quote or similar?

I think only KM can answer that. She had the idea (and a very good one!) so KM? Do you want to be the Subject Picker? I vote for ya! And I also like it being a picture. I really learned a lot on just how many ways you can look at something and I enjoyed reading all the different outlooks. I say keep it a pic.

 

[cymbidia]

At last!!! (part 1)

I apologize most sincerely for the really terrible length of time it's taken me to get to this. My life has hit a few snags of late and i'm pinning my WHOLE ENTIRE defense on that. Please don't ease me, ever so kindly, out of the group. I promise to be a member in good standing from now on and offer my responses in a timely fashion. Here's the first three. The rest will (as in "i promise") be posted today, too.


Feedback: Mickie: The Kiss

This is a straightforward and endearing story snippet of love being honed and sweetened with time. It is clear that his love for her is still a thing of wonder to him, and may always be so. From his perspective, her love to him is a matter of astonishing joy. She’s clean and wholesome, to him, even as passion rises. There’s no love like one’s first love, hmmm?

That said, I thought (like SC) this deserved a first person perspective, though most know I’m partial to that perspective so maybe my opinion on this is tainted by personal prejudice. The maturity of the sweet wistfulness that so imbued this was at odds, too, I thought, with the very youthful people in the picture.

Those are the pickiest details I could come up with regarding this small gem.


Feedback: SC: Charlie and his friend

Very original idea. I love the thought of another, non-involved party seeing the two kissing and having to do something about it. I love the use of first-person too; I thought this picture really cried out for it. The picture does, now that you mention it, toss off feelings of a steamy, hasty, almost-illicit meeting between two very impetuous lovers.

Something that rang a little untrue for me was the abrupt change in the girl from action to sorta helpless crying:

”Come on Charlie, do what they tell you! Then maybe you can get out faster. The baby is coming whether you are out here or not,” the girl said trying to reach through the fence.

“Come on baby, give me back those sweet lips of yours, that jerk off guard can suck my dick,” Charlie said.

“Charlie, take your girl’s advice and back off the fence. You know the rules. I don’t want any trouble today,” I said quietly and watched as the young punk tensed up. I was relaxed but ready for him.

“Charlie! Please,” the girl begged almost crying. “Please, baby, you have to get out and take care of me and the baby!”

Perhaps it might have rung truer had she stayed either pleading or tearful, but not both in the space of a couple seconds of real time convo. I understand the limitations of one-page stories, however, even if they’re only small snippets. Good job, darlin’.


Feedback: Alex DeKok: The Teachers
I loved the experimental nature of an all-dialogue story. It would be difficult to carry this for much longer though, I think. My first time through the story, I lost track of who was saying what and found that a trifle unsettling and a bit annoying. During subsequent readings, I followed the lines of dialogue well.

This story flows well, as it would if people really were/would say these things to each other. The emotions offered by the words are impatient and impetuous at times, with undercurrents of cynicism and tenderness. There’s the thrill of illicit touching going on, and I liked that. Additionally I loved the inclusion of the little lunch details and the intimacy that implies, however recent to it these two are.

The use of an exclamation point was a little jarring, quite frankly, since I was hooked into your dialogue-only premise by then. Too, someone mentioned the people in the pic didn’t look old enough for this scenario and I have to second that, but it’s a minor point, I think.


Addendum: I'm finding it taxing (at the least) to respond at all intelligently to ALL the wonderful and so-varied submissions that came from this one picture. I think limiting the (1) responses to answering a single question, and/or (2) limiting the number of writers to-be-responded-to on a weekly (biweekly?) basis is an idea with a lot of merit.

And no, KM! Please don't discount me. I'm only taking a break from the GB, not here, not the BDSM thread.

Okay, back to the salt mine. No, no, no! I meant, of course, back to the last couple of critiques of your impressive and well-wrought stories.

 

[cymbidia]

At last!!! (part 2)

Feedback: bluetrain: The Fence

Wow. “Dense” doesn’t seem to be an adequate adjective for this story. Nor does “emotional”. Nor “evocative”. I could toss some additional adjectives into the mix, I think, but they wouldn’t do much to describe my reaction to this bit of very sophisticated writing, either. Therefore, let me be straightforward.

This was a bit of writing that far surpasses any modest skills I might claim. I struggle, therefore, to feel my comments have any real merit. Sad, but true. (And I need no assurances one way or the other, either, just thought I’d be open about my own insecurities here.) Additionally, I don’t know this author the way I know the rest; perhaps that, too, is a part of my uncharacteristic reluctance to be open and honest in my assessment. However, I will be both.

I absolutely loved the “nightsweat” and “dreamfilm” pairing. Both of those are powerful images and were made more so by their proximity to each other. All of the images offered by the words in this piece are startling in their clarity and power, images such as “chain-link fence that cuts the light on the worn pavement into little diamonds”. I envy this ability to write with such presence.

I really hated not knowing from the very beginning if the protagonist was male or female. I didn’t realize I had a need to know this bit of info at the beginning of my stores but found out I was impatient, and felt a little annoyed, when it wasn’t clear to me if the emotions were from a man or a woman. Additionally, the use of the word “ones” at the beginning rang a bit off, to my ear. I know the words were referring to “certain summer mornings” but, still, they didn’t sound quite right. Additionally, (and I know this is picky but…) I got the distinct impression that this took place in some city, some urban environment. Why then would the protagonist have to walk up a certain street to find a chain link fence? Was it just *that* particular chain link fence, near *that*particular old junker of a truck? Not clear, to me at least.

Your story flowed beautifully. I prefer to write and read shorter sentences; I found, therefore, some of your sentences too convoluted and had to go over them more than once to get their full meaning. It interfered, in a small way, with my pleasure in the reading of the thing. This is an example of incredibly sophisticated and evocative writing, writing that is beyond my ability to craft.



Feedback: KM: Vato

This is an incredibly emotional story. It’s astonishingly complete, a whole story on one page. That takes skill, an attribute we all know KM has in abundance. After I read this story (every time) I looked at the original picture again and saw the male in the picture as dimmer, almost a ghost, such was the power of her presentation in this small story.

The beginning paragraph with its heavy reliance on scent was intriguing and effective. However, as a native Californian, someone born and raised in northern San Diego county, I know southern CA. I know, for example, that if it’s “hot and oppressive” then there are no “tortured gray skies” or even one “flash of lightening” anywhere within a 200 mile radius. That combo of weather simply doesn’t occur in southern CA, ever. I know this is picky, I know that kind of weather occurs in other places, but CA has a Mediterranean climate and it simply doesn’t happen there – and it bothered me to have it included.

That said, KM expertly crafted her presentation of the keening horror of his brutal death in such a casual fashion. The numbing grief the protagonist felt threaded and complemented her thoughts as the reader came to understand the enormity of her loss. One is left with a profound sadness at the end of this piece, and a feeling of helpless futility in the knowledge that such losses occur everyday in just that manner. She had such bright dreams for such a short time.

KM, you’re a fabulous writer. You know I think that.

 

[KillerMuffin]

All I have to say, cym, is thank MS you're still here. heh.

Anyway, Alex's time table seems workable to me, as well as bluetrain's caveat. What do we all think?

 

[cymbidia]

I'm tossing my vote in the ring for Alex's timetable too, as well as giving a more enthusiastic thumbs up to the longer timetable.

And, since someone mentioned it, i like pics for inspiration. We respond with words, all of us, to our world. It's how we process a lot of what we see, hear, smell, taste, feel, etc in our lives. I think these kinds of exercises help us hone skills that are already attuned to funneling our world responses into words.

Again the question is put to KM: is the finding of something to write from an onerous task? Would you like to share it among the group?

I loved seeing the differences in emotion you all came up with in our first attempts.
Wistful happiness
Annoyed irritation
Rushed camaraderie
Dreamy grief
Urgent grief

I can't wait for round 2!

 

[Bluetrain]

I throw my hat into the ring with cymbidia and alex in regards to timetables and logistics. Also, if KM is willing to be the story starter, i think she should do it; she has a most wonderfully quirky and appropriate perspective.

by the way, thank you, cymbidia, for a thoughtful and incredibly clear critique. you opened my eyes to some aspects i hadn't noticed before.

km! i still want to respond to your piece. I'll probably wait until i see your next one, then give your a more comprehensive feedback.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Allrighty then. Here's my thoughts.

We'll start round 2 on Monday. I'll post a "sign up" thread tomorrowish for those wanting to participate with the rules, kind of like they are, outlined for anyone who hasn't already played.

We'll follow Alex's timetable, it's very workable, I think, unless someone has a better idea. We'll take volunteers for the first round. I got through three critiques, so three seems like a number to me, but how many should we have write a story?

Okay, Monday, probably Sunday knowing me, I'll post a story thread for round 2. Next Monday I'll post a Discussion thread for round 2. We can try to see how that would work, discussion separate from story. Or is that a bad idea? I've been pasting the pieces into my word processor and doing the critiques there, makes it a lot easier for me, but I'm not sure if ya'll want separate threads.

Anyway, I think we should continue with the same picture per round because some of us are fast writers and some of us have life to deal with that gets in the way and some of us write more slowly. That way someone, like Sam, could have three or four weeks to write something they're comfortable with and someone, like me, would have it pitched out in a week.

I've lost my train of thought and I think the track of what I've been saying has broken down and ya'll have been derailed. Hope it wasn't ugly. We'd hate to have to evacuate the board if some of the cars were full of hazmat, ya know?

 

[JUDO]

Good Going!

The Lit Writer's Group (LWG) is off to a great start! Sorry, I did not participate in Round 1 (I was out of town on business and then had to finish another project -- finished today, yeh!).

So, I like the plan for round 2!

I like bluetrain's observations about feedback. Here is one other idea. How about an "appointed lead" for feedback for each round? The someone can appoint themselves by volunteering or we can draw straws??

In this way, many things can be covered by the lead and the rest should simply add to what has been said, if necessary. Most of the time, many of the really constructive items will be covered within one or two persons and not everyone would need to, or should feel compelled to feedback someone (hmmm..awfully bad gammar but it feels like American English).

And if not a lead, then at least everyone shouldn't feel obligated to feedback everyone.

It's like having a conversation. If the good bits have been said...why go on about the "maybes?"

Anyway, looking forward to Round 2. Anyone need anything done? help? etc? I tell you after finishing a four-month long project that's been hanging over my head like a vulture, I'm ready to expend some energy!


- Judo

 

[cymbidia]

I'm confused. Doesn't help that i'm pms'ing and od'ed in a big way on chocolate tonight, either. And it's DAMN late; i don't know what i'm doing up right now. I should be asleep.

Ahem. Let me begin again...

I'm confused.
Will someone please look over what i've outlined below and correct the wrong parts, then praise me for the right parts?
Thank you.

Round 2
Week 1: Sunday night: KM posts the story starter.
Week 1: Monday: up to three LWG members (thanks Judo, darlin', we all need more acronyms in our lives) clamor/sign up to write this week.
Week 1: end of the week: all submissions are... well... submitted.
Week 1: as soon as all submissions are in, critiquing begins. (Now, do all the rest of us critique? What's this "lead" idea as far as critiquing?)

Week 2: up to three more LWG members ready thier masterpieces. The week continues along the same path that week 1 took.

Week 3: if necessary.


Is that at all correct?
I hate being confused at 3:49am.
I should be asleep.

 

[JUDO]

The "Lead" thing

Cym-

The Lead would critique each submission first (Everyone else would have to wait for that). After, if there is something that the other readers have noticed that they wish to add as a follow-up, they add that as well.

This is not to say that the Lead needs to do a thorough job, simply get the ball rolling. And, everyone else should not necessarily feel obligated to critique all the authors afterwards, either. Just the ones you have strong feelings about.

Hopefully, this would lead to more meaningful and concise criticism for the authors and less reviewing for the readers (you don't have to review everyone). Only the Lead would need to review them all.


- Judo

PS - The schedule for submitting/reviewing for the next two weeks above looks cool, Cym.
PPS - I love a sleepy woman.

 

[SteamyChik]

the lead thing

I understand the concept but I think it should be a free-for-all. The first person to critique could be considered the lead, but I don't think it should be assigned. Why? Because if I have the time right then to do a critique, I don't want to have to wait on someone. At the same time, if there have been critiques prior to you/I writing one, then there is no need to rehash what has been said, unless there is another element or concept to add to it. Does that make sense?

I don't think we want this to be too structured with too many rules or people will give up on it.

 

[Guest]

The Lead Thing

I'm not sure on this one. I think I can see where JUDO's coming from, but I don't think I want to (perhaps) wait on an appointed/volunteer lead. I agree with Steamychik that we don't want too much structure.

I do agree with Killermuffin that each group writes on the same 'source', although I suspect that my own efforts might be colo(u)red if I happen to be part of the second or third group. How many have we got, anyway? Sam opted out for the present, which leaves, by my reckoning, seven (at present):

Killermuffin
Cymbidia
JUDO
Bluetrain
Steamychik
Mickie
Alex

How do we go? A 4 and a 3? Two 3s and a 1? A 3 and two 2s? (Better, I think.) If anyone else wants in, we can take two more without changing timetables.

I'd like this time to be part of the second or third group. Mother-in-law fell and broke her hip, so my wife and I are doing a lot of hospital visiting at the moment. M-I-L is doing great and I think she'll be zimmer racing by next week, but just in case... (did I use the ellipsis correctly?) <lol>

I certainly don't want to be lead, if that's the way we go.

Alex

 

[Alex De Kok]

Sorry, the Unregistered was me. My line got dropped and I forgot to log back in when I re-connected!

Alex.

 

[Bluetrain]

hmmm......

i sense confusion and possible discord amidst the LWG. Perhaps we should defer to KM's suggestion for now; for the second try, that is.

we definitely need to get it sorted out before KM posts th enew writing prompt.

i would write more at the moment, but it's late and i can't think of enough cool acronyms to use in my post...