Litlog2018++

I am not fragile. Bullying is quite dickish though. It would be great if people could self regulate. If there is a power difference, say teacher and student, then the situation becomes one in which an authority has a duty to step in.

Would you send your kid into a classroom where the teacher rewarded bullies for taunting, snarling and threatening him? How would you feel about that teacher who used her power difference to boost her fragile ego through sadistic cruelty?

What is lost in your argument is that the bully is the one who is weak. Cruelty is never strengthening. It just makes a bully weaker.
 
I am not fragile. Bullying is quite dickish though. It would be great if people could self regulate. If there is a power difference, say teacher and student, then the situation becomes one in which an authority has a duty to step in.

Would you send your kid into a classroom where the teacher rewarded bullies for taunting, snarling and threatening him? How would you feel about that teacher who used her power difference to boost her fragile ego through sadistic cruelty?

What is lost in your argument is that the bully is the one who is weak. Cruelty is never strengthening. It just makes a bully weaker.

Cruelty is the extreme end of the bullying spectrum, would you consider a critique of someones writing as bullying if it hurt their feelings, if it felt cruel to the individual you were critiquing?

Nuance is the biggest difference I can see between the extreme end of bullying and the peer pressure that some groups put on each other to uphold a standard. In today's world there is little differentiating from peer pressure of performance and achievement and out right narcissisitic bullying that you are discussing. I used the term bullying in the context of todays environment. Inclusion, tolerance, and cultural diversity, where being better than others can cause offence and get you labeled a bully when you try to hold others to high standards.

Without the bullying of success as a motivator in the day of everyone gets a star, we are promoting and self agrandising mediocrity. Shooting holes in merit to spare peoples feelings.

As a person I am probably in the top 10% for strength on the planet now I can be a total dick about it and expect the other men I work with to lift and move what I do, despite the fact I know they either wont be able to do it or will risk severe injury

I can pick up a 140kg sheet of mdf 6ft wide, 12ft tall and 33mm thick and carry it approximately 25 metres then stand it up with no mechanical assistance or other person assistance.

I have repeated this feat a maximum of 15times with no rest between lifts except when walking back to the truck we were moving them from
There were 4 other guys taking resting turns moving the other pile 2 per sheet and I finished ahead of them.

Would you send your son to work with me if I ridiculed him as a pathetic waste of space if he couldnt lift it, or if he couldnt stand it up by himself? Would you send your daughter into such an environment?

The answer is a resounding hell no if you actually cared, however I can view boards liftable by the average man as a one man lift not two and expect it to be moved by one man when in almost every other factory it is a two person lift.

That is pressure and can be recieved/viewed as bullying. If the worker wishes it to be a two person lift I will accomodate them but I won't be happy about it.

As to installers, I will demand a certain degree of excellence from their workmanship because without that you have no reputation, there is exteme pressure on them to maintian standards and they are dressed down and called to task and critiqued severely if they run behind or damage customers houses, that can be viewed as bullying by putting extra stressors onto an employee or contractor. If someone is not up to standard they will be dressed down by the entire group, ridiculed, have jokes made at their expense these would probably be labeled as micro agressions by the high minded emotionally fragile university students in gender studies, or whatever social science that backs this nonsense and to an extent the way it appears teachers are trained.

There is from my perspective more emphasis on self esteem, i.e. everyone needs to feel good about themselves and "dont say that you'll hurt that persons feelings"
Than an emphasis on self respect by doing what is fucking hard and relishing in the accomplishment.

Is my above notion of peer pressure within a group considered bullying by todays standards? If a child in you class was of the same intelligence as all the other kids but fell way behind in their reading and his/her friends teased them about it, would you consider that bullying?

I consider that peer pressured excellence, you need to keep up with the group as a minimum average or you are viewed as weak, we are high functioning but we are animals none the less, the weak animals everywhere else do not survive, do not breed and are rarely protected by the societies they live in doubly soo if they have the ability but dont know how to use it.

Now because someone is not upto standard if they have the ability to be at the minimum level then I wouldnt consider it bullying. If there was an impairment and the child was not able to be at the minimum level then I would consider the behaviour bullying. If the child regulated and caught up to the average minimum and the child recieved a nick name or adressing title based on the failure I would think it a grey area, sometimes we need reminding of our past failures so we dont do it again and other times we need to let go of it so we can move on, for me that would be an individual thing.

Is there an onus of responsibility on the group to help the child thats fallen behind, is that onus on the teacher, the parents, all of the above?

If an environment is hyper competitive then the onus is on the individual to not fall behind, if the environment is less competetive then the onus becomes more on the group.

A friend of mine sent me a ted talk

https://youtu.be/URCczBRp6Pk

And it made me think about the role and socialisation of pecking orders/dominance heirarchies, bullying and competition. But the difference is the chicken is individually laying eggs, they're not individuals united trying to work toward a total egg output the farmers are trying to optimise their egg output, do I believe that a tyranicl boss can opress his staff and bully them into failure and ridicule to the point where they dont want to even get up and go to work, yes, but is there a healthy level of "bullying" behaviour that is essential for success? You must have toure ideas challenged, you must have your thoughts scrutinized to bring out the best is someone a bully for cutting into your ideas? Or are they simply trying to help you?

If a male chimpanzee is the strongest most dominant in a group but is a tyrant, two to three low level chimps will literally tear the "alpha" into pieces. So even in ani mals too much domineering and agression will not be tolerated for long.

Would you consider the pressure we put on our children based on their potential as bullying? Forcing them to do their homework, punishing them for low grades? I understand that encouragement and reward is on average a better teaching aide than punishment for failure, however if my kids under achieve academically they will lose some of their priveledges, if they succede to a minimum standard then I am happy if they over achieve they will be rewarded.

Is that bullying them to hold them to a standard and judge them? Is that a type of cruelty?
 
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I am not fragile.[...]

Of course not. :)

In which case, if you're particular about a poem from the past then relax, and open a new thread on the main PF&D forum or here, in the Poet's Hangout so that some willing participants may join you there. If that's what you'd like. At this time your posts here look to me like a St. Vitus dancing. You may certainly continue in this vein here if it's actually comfortable to you.
 
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As a person I am probably in the top 10% for strength on the planet [...]

I can pick up a 140kg sheet of mdf 6ft wide, 12ft tall and 33mm thick and carry it approximately 25 metres then stand it up with no mechanical assistance or other person assistance.

I have repeated this feat a maximum of 15times with no rest between lifts except when walking back to the truck we were moving them from
There were 4 other guys taking resting turns moving the other pile 2 per sheet and I finished ahead of them.

Todski, very impressive! Congratulations! You could compete (just, please, make sure that you don't injure yourself).

Quote from wikipedia:

The WSM Hall of Fame was created in 2008, to recognize the greatest competitors in the history of the contest. As of 2017, there are 4 members of the WSM Hall of Fame, Mariusz Pudzianowski, Svend Karlsen, Jón Páll Sigmarsson and Bill Kazmaier. The official WSM website holds online voting to determine who is elected to the Hall of Fame as voted by the fans.


Regards,
 
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[...] a ted talk

https://youtu.be/URCczBRp6Pk

And it made me think about the role and socialisation of pecking orders/dominance heirarchies, [...]

If a male chimpanzee is the strongest most dominant in a group but is a tyrant, two to three low level chimps will literally tear the "alpha" into pieces. So even in animals too much domineering and agression will not be tolerated for long.

The chimpanzee example is superb, it's pure poetry too. The above mentioned TED talk is interesting, granted that it is read with a distance only which allows seeing the whole theme. Otherwise, this talk is way too simplistic (partly false hence simply false) and it can be harmful! (very harmful)--in a real life, this talk can be used to abuse. The topic is actually multidimensional. I've spent most of my life thinking about such things and can share if there is further interest. For the time being, try to get (on Amazon? I don't know) the following monography which to me is extra attractive because anything musical is:

Izabela Wagner,
Producing Excellence
The making of Virtuosos


Published by the Rutgers University Press. You'll see how much higher level that monography presents than the mentioned potentially stifling TED talk.


Regards,
 
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Alpha chimpanzee

If a male chimpanzee is the strongest most dominant in a group but is a tyrant, two to three low level chimps will literally tear the "alpha" into pieces. So even in ani mals too much domineering and agression will not be tolerated for long.

I hope that most of you have heard about that monster, Joseph Stalin. For several years the second most feared man in the Soviet Union was Lavrentiy Pavlovich Beria. Stalin had a habit to kill his close subordinates, especially when they were secret police chiefs, as Beria was. Thus clever Beria lived in a constant fear, and he had contributed, in a rather passive way, to Stalin's demise. The official date of Stalin's death was March 5, 1953. I am pretty sure that it was March 3, 1953, because it took about two days before Stalin's body has decomposed so bad that there was no way around it. Thus this is already a good introduction to the above chimpanzee story.

But the real story starts only now. After years of living under terrible pressure, Beria, after Stalin's death, was basically in a driver seat, especially that he knew about every of his power competitors tones of damaging staff. Somehow, this extremely dangerous Beria got cocky and let his guard down. Clever Nikita Khrushchev, together with a few of the comrades, had murdered Beria. Thus, Nikita was the USSR boss for years. Incredibly, Khrushchev was able to retire without being murdered himself which in the Soviet/Russian history is rather an exception than a rule.

Todski, indeed, the smaller chimpanzees managed to kill the alpha specimen.
 
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wh, short 10--democracy (a definition)

--


Democracy is a political system
in which the ruling party loses.



wh,
many years ago

--
 
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I hope that most of you have heard about that monster, Joseph Stalin. For several years the second most feared man in the Soviet Union was Lavrentiy Pavlovich Beria. Stalin had a habit to kill his close subordinates, especially when they were secret police chiefs, as Beria was. Thus clever Beria lived in a constant fear, and he had contributed, in a rather passive way, to Stalin's demise. The official date of Stalin's death was March 5, 1953. I am pretty sure that it was March 3, 1953, because it took about two days before Stalin's body has decomposed so bad that there was no way around it. Thus this is already a good introduction to the above chimpanzee story.

But the real story starts only now. After years of living under terrible pressure, Beria, after Stalin's death, was basically in a driver seat, especially that he knew about every of his power competitors tones of damaging staff. Somehow, this extremely dangerous Beria got cocky and let his guard down. Clever Nikita Khrushchev, together with a few of the comrades, had murdered Beria. Thus, Nikita was the USSR boss for years. Incredibly, Khrushchev was able to retire without being murdered himself which in the Soviet/Russian history is rather an exception than a rule.

Todski, indeed, the smaller chimpanzees managed to kill the alpha specimen.

I have literally only started learning of the horrors comitted in the soviet union, WWII in the history classes thatf I remember was mostly dealing with the germans and there was not so much on the cold war.....I was on a lot of drugs as a teenager and alot of my memories are blurred distorted and indecipherable unless they were horrific on an individual level or extremely happy on an individual level.

But from what I can recall minimal of note is discussed on the mass killings under the communist regime under Stalin.

So Ive seen youtube lectures and started looking into books documenting how horrible it was, then you look into China under chairman mao, Cambodia, and recently Venezuela it's crazy
 
[...]So Ive seen youtube lectures and started looking into books documenting how horrible it was, [...][

The following beautiful song is a by-product of horrible suffering inflicted by Stalin on Ukrainian farmers (then the whole USSR suffered from terrible hunger):

Pyotr Leshchenko - Chubchik


[...]

Springtime will pass, summer will come
The trees in the garden will be growing wild and beautiful
But I, a poor-poor boy,
Will be chained hand and foot.

I am a po-po-poor boy
Hey, I will be chained hand and foot.
But I'm not afraid of Siberia
Because the Siberia is also Russian land

Hey, flutter, flutter, you curly forelock
Flutter forelock, in the wind
Yet, flutter, flutter, curly forelock
Hey, flutter forelock, in the wind


Years after Stalin's death, it was the Ukrainian Nikita Khrushchev's turn to induce hunger in the whole USSR, and especially on Ukraine. Ukrainians were dying en mass. (After this, Nikita lost power to Brezhnev).

I've spent the 1967/8 academic year at the Moscow National University as something as a post-doc. Moscow people were not able to send food from the city to their family outside Moscow. To do so, you'd have to get out of Moscow, and only then you could send a food package. How do you think, why? (Hint: you could buy flour there only in a drugstore, not in the food stores).

In Moscow, I bought some toys for my children and was sending them to Warsaw (Poland) from the university post office. It was not easy to find packing paper hence I used Pravda, etc (Russian newspapers--these papers were also commonly and almost exclusively used as toilet paper). The post office removed the newspaper packing and I had to (I was forced to) replace it with regular packing paper. Can you guess, why?

When I took on a train from Moscow away somewhere, to visit my friends away from Moscow (on two different occasions), I broke a Soviet administrative rule, I had done something forbidden.
 
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wh, short 11--a forerunner

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An early precursor of Wikipedia is the Bible.


wh,
2018-03-27

--
 
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The following beautiful song is a by-product of horrible suffering inflicted by Stalin on Ukrainian farmers (then the whole USSR suffered from terrible hunger):

Pyotr Leshchenko - Chubchik


[...]

Springtime will pass, summer will come
The trees in the garden will be growing wild and beautiful
But I, a poor-poor boy,
Will be chained hand and foot.

I am a po-po-poor boy
Hey, I will be chained hand and foot.
But I'm not afraid of Siberia
Because the Siberia is also Russian land

Hey, flutter, flutter, you curly forelock
Flutter forelock, in the wind
Yet, flutter, flutter, curly forelock
Hey, flutter forelock, in the wind


Years after Stalin's death, it was the Ukrainian Nikita Khrushchev's turn to induce hunger in the whole USSR, and especially on Ukraine. Ukrainians were dying en mass. (After this, Nikita lost power to Brezhnev).

I've spent the 1967/8 academic year at the Moscow National University as something as a post-doc. Moscow people were not able to send food from the city to their family outside Moscow. To do so, you'd have to get out of Moscow, and only then you could send a food package. How do you think, why? (Hint: you could buy flour there only in a drugstore, not in the food stores).

In Moscow, I bought some toys for my children and was sending them to Warsaw (Poland) from the university post office. It was not easy to find packing paper hence I used Pravda, etc (Russian newspapers--these papers were also commonly and almost exclusively used as toilet paper). The post office removed the newspaper packing and I had to (I was forced to) replace it with regular packing paper. Can you guess, why?

When I took on a train from Moscow away somewhere, to visit my friends away from Moscow (on two different occasions), I broke a Soviet administrative rule, I had done something forbidden.

The song presented is haunting especially when looked at through a contextual lens.


How did you deal with those kinds of crushing restrictive pressures, especially where family was concerned,

You asked a few questions within your statement none of which I have answers for, so it would be interesting to see you elaborate further, if that's ok with you?

From all accounts it is and was one of the worst happenings of the 20th century. But not a monopoly on atrocious behaviour we have exhibited within that time frame, or that continues to happen.
 
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wh, short 12--but it may hurt people

--


A political system cannot be better than people themselves.


--
 
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Todski, very impressive! Congratulations! You could compete (just, please, make sure that you don't injure yourself).

Quote from wikipedia:

The WSM Hall of Fame was created in 2008, to recognize the greatest competitors in the history of the contest. As of 2017, there are 4 members of the WSM Hall of Fame, Mariusz Pudzianowski, Svend Karlsen, Jón Páll Sigmarsson and Bill Kazmaier. The official WSM website holds online voting to determine who is elected to the Hall of Fame as voted by the fans.


Regards,

I used to train in the strong man disciplines, some evenings after the night club was shut I used to pick up the back end of small cars and turn them sideways in parking spaces for a bit of a laugh, but the strongman style training affected my cardio for boxing, the bulk muscle burnt far more oxygen than leaner mjscle and the change of intermediate muscle fibre to take a slower contraction meant that my over all explosiveness in striking slowed down, and muscle fatigue increased.

So I persued the boxing type training as it was the more enjoyable of the two activities for me and it crossed over to security guard work better incase of multiple attacker scenarios. Its not a good idea to have fatigued lactic acid filled muscles if you have fresh faced young idiots trying to punch you in the head.....

See marius pudzanowski's first mixed martial arts fight to see the type of effect too much bulk muscle and lack of fast twitch muscle fibre does to your fatigue levels.... he did go on to correct his training for mma and did very well for someone who took up the discipline very late in life
 
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The following beautiful song is a by-product of horrible suffering inflicted by Stalin on Ukrainian farmers (then the whole USSR suffered from terrible hunger):

Pyotr Leshchenko - Chubchik


[...]

Springtime will pass, summer will come
The trees in the garden will be growing wild and beautiful
But I, a poor-poor boy,
Will be chained hand and foot.

I am a po-po-poor boy
Hey, I will be chained hand and foot.
But I'm not afraid of Siberia
Because the Siberia is also Russian land

Hey, flutter, flutter, you curly forelock
Flutter forelock, in the wind
Yet, flutter, flutter, curly forelock
Hey, flutter forelock, in the wind


Years after Stalin's death, it was the Ukrainian Nikita Khrushchev's turn to induce hunger in the whole USSR, and especially on Ukraine. Ukrainians were dying en mass. (After this, Nikita lost power to Brezhnev).

I've spent the 1967/8 academic year at the Moscow National University as something as a post-doc. Moscow people were not able to send food from the city to their family outside Moscow. To do so, you'd have to get out of Moscow, and only then you could send a food package. How do you think, why? (Hint: you could buy flour there only in a drugstore, not in the food stores).

In Moscow, I bought some toys for my children and was sending them to Warsaw (Poland) from the university post office. It was not easy to find packing paper hence I used Pravda, etc (Russian newspapers--these papers were also commonly and almost exclusively used as toilet paper). The post office removed the newspaper packing and I had to (I was forced to) replace it with regular packing paper. Can you guess, why?

When I took on a train from Moscow away somewhere, to visit my friends away from Moscow (on two different occasions), I broke a Soviet administrative rule, I had done something forbidden.


Senna,

I'm curious. What was life for you and your family like under the Communist regime in Poland?
 
Outstanding athletes

So I pursued the boxing type training as it was the more enjoyable of the two activities for me [...]

Boxing world champion Marvin Hagler (Marvelous) wrote:

When I die
and they rip up the top of my skull wide,
they will see a huge boxing glove inside.

This is one of the most wonderful poems ever.

See marius pudzanowski's

A great athlete. His last name ends in Z, it is Mariusz.

It's nice to know that Polish SZ is pronunced SH in English (just as Polish CZ is pronounced in English as CH):


PL <--> EN
========
SZ <--> CH
CZ <--> SH​


There is also "i" near the middle of last name Pudzianowski. The letter "i" in "ia" or even in the whole sound "dzia" makes this whole sound soft.

At the ending "...wski" letter "w" is very officially/formally pronounced as English "v", however, the correct way to pronounce it in practice (in this and some similar cases) is as "ph".
 
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The song presented is haunting especially when looked at through a contextual lens.

One should feel how ominous Siberia sounds... (!!!)

***

About Moscow 1967-1968.

The food situation. Soviets put an enormous effort on propaganda. It went far beyond word propaganda. They were making an impression on the world, in particular on foreigners, that the situation in the Soviet Union was better than it was. Thus more food was arriving in capital Moscow than in the rest of the USSR. For this reason, it was forbidden to sent food from Moscow to outside Moscow.

I made a hint about flour. Just before 1967-68, there was such hunger in the USSR that flower in very small quantities was available only in pharmacies (perhaps you'd need a doctor's prescription in those years to get any quantity of flour). When I was there, the hunger was over but the sales of flour were still restricted to pharmacies. And this was true also in Moscow, Moscow was not excepted.

In the USSR, say in Moscow, to buy anything in a store meant to stay in a line THREE times. Often these lines were excruciatingly long. First, you were in the first to line at a counter where you were ordering whatever you wanted to buy, be it food or whatever (different things in different stores). Then you were going to cashier, where you were waiting in the second line, where you were paying for whatever you were about to receive. Then you would go back to the counter to receive the goodies.

About newspapers. The Soviets didn't like you to keep old newspapers. The reason was clear. For instance, at one time Hitler and Stalin were the best of friends, and the USSR was assisting Hitler/Germany. Then Hitler made the about-face, and they became mortal enemies. If you kept at home all these newspapers you'd have a chance to be arrested because of this, etc.

Stalin had died in 1953 but the uneasy feeling about newspapers was still alive. This would show especially in the case of anything international, their post-office would not allow sending newspapers outside the USSR. Of course, many books in under communist, be it in the USSR or Poland, East Germany, etc. were on a blacklist. During my years in Poland the police searches for such books, taking them away and arrested were common.

REMARK Of course, these days some countries don't allow anti-semitic publications or punish for Holocast denying. They claim that they oppose anti-semitism when in reality they entice anti-semitism. These ugly guys (e.g. in Canada?) love to restrict freedom in every possible way.

Travel. Those years, 1967-68 and before and most likely until Gorbachev (?), Soviets or foreigners were not allowed to travel, except with a special permission. If you were a farmer (kolkhoznik) then you were virtually chained to your village (or a small region around it?). You could freely travel from one city to another.

Soviets had pretty good schools when it came to mathematics and technical subjects (they could have been much better but the Western schools were still much worse on average). They were also supporting art as long as it was not conflicting with the Soviet propaganda. Thus classical music was fine, ballet, etc. Also sport. The talented kids, which successfully avoided rivers of vodka, would end up in Moscow or Leningrad (today St. Petersburg). The Soviet educational system would fish them out but there were very very few of them. Many of Soviet kids were happy to fight in Afganistan just to experience something new, just to avoid the drab Soviet reality.

I didn't worry too much (I guess I am not much into a business of worrying needlessly). My Russian was far from clean (I have a Polish accent) but I was dark and I could easily pass for a Georgian or similar, there were enough of them around.
 
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Senna,

I'm curious. What was life for you and your family like under the Communist regime in Poland?

Greenmountaineer, I'd be very happy to have a conversation with you, however...

I am too serious to casually answer your question as it is now. Your q. already frames the answer in a way which would imply a false representation of our reality/world.

I cannot separate Russia+Poland and the USA, I cannot separate Communism and a significant part of the American political life. (While my English is poor my American experience is rich, much richer than that of the majority of Americans).

Perhaps I can compare two guys, myself and Bernie Sanders (who is half a year older than me but for a few days), if it'd be still of any interest to you.
 
For starters: politics (general remarks)

Sure. I'm very familiar with Bernie who is the junior senator from my home state of Vermont.

To make word politics meaningful, it's definition has to be narrowed to elements specifically political which means simply dirty. It's time that the decent thoughtful people would stand up from their knees and would appreciate and act upon this understanding.

My--relatively modest but highly risky--involvement in social affairs (call it human rights) was just that, it was humane and not political (it didn't matter too much whom I defended, I was standing for people in trouble). On the other hand, Bernie Sanders is exclusively interested in politics as witnessed by his life story and an attempt at winning the US presidency. However, he didn't have guts to stand his ground when two young Black women simply pushed him away from his lecture table at a political public meeting--big difference.

***

BTW, there are several loaded words which are poorly used and abused by money people, media, politicians and propaganda in general. It'd be nice to clear their usage. For instance, a word which causes total misunderstandings and confusion is capitalism. As it is now, this word should not be used at all in any truth-seeking discussion. Instead, most of the time, you may talk about the free market economy--big difference.
 
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wh, short 13--more about the truth and democracy

--


truth is not democratic



wh,
2018-03-29

--
 
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wh, short 14--sure logic

--



when things don't make sense
someone is making money





wh,
many years ago

--
 
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