looking for some reactions

[hurtme]

I'm not condoning "judgemental" people at all ~ although, I guess I am one. The first time I read a post about something that is beyond my realm of experience, it can take two or three readings to get beyond that "oh, OW OW OW OWOW" in my head and really try to understand what the poster was trying to communicate. And sometimes, I don't. Sometimes, I just can't wrap my head around a particular concept. Doesn't make it wrong, just makes it not right for me right now. I'm not that person, haven't lived their life, don't have knowledge of them beyond what they're presenting to the board and don't have an understanding of their frame of reference.


shay

yep, this mangages to sum up pretty much how i feel on the subject. I do a lot of things other people find wrong, or bad, or offensive...I have been screamed at, preached to, and shunned for them (no, I am not only talking about sex) Now, not to get all religious on you guys, but something I live by...in a part of the Wiccan rede it says "An it harm none, do what ye will." I follow that the best I can, and when I am "judging other people" I use the same philosophy...are their actions hurting anyone (including themselves) if not, than it is there business, if they want to share it with me, I am always interested, even if it is something I could never do or don't understand. And i would never try to judge someone harshly for doing something that makes then happy, even if it is something that I would never choose to do.

To say that we don't judge people is incorrect, we all judge people, conciously, or subconciously, it is burned into our brains, we make decisions about ppl within moments of meeting them, of laying eyes on them. It is instinctual...the trick is, to realise that you are doing it, and to learn to ignore the snap judgements that you make in order to see what is really there...IMHO of course...

 

[catalina_francisco]

Every day, we make judgements and choices. We have to, to get through the day.

LOL...I have tried often to point this out when there are huge debates going on about being or not being judgemental. Seems popular to attach negative connotations to the word and meaning without acknowledging the positive side we all use no matter how much some may protest. We decide who to be friends with, who to vote for, who to work for, not always necessarily because the other person is bad or wrong, but because everyone is wired differntly, and my friend may be the greatest humanitarian on earth but just not rock your boat, does not mean my decision to be their friend, or your decision not to be so close to them, is right or wrong, better or worse.

I have brought up the same issue with labels when we seem to go through seasonal waves at Lit about 'what a particular label such as submissive means', and then 'how bad it is to use labels'. It is necessary to have some basic information of who you are, especially if you are looking for a partner....certainly saves Dominants inadvertently seeking out another Dominant from a personal ad saying only they seek a relationship. Both labels and judgements are part of every one's life, even the Dalai Lama uses them....it is how you use them which makes them negative or positive, right or wrong, harmful or helpful.

Catalina

 

[Krinaia]

I appreciate a lot of what has been said but I think we're starting perhaps to get a little off-subject. This isn't necessarily about judging people ... nor thinking that those who entertain certain activites should be considered crazy... this is about people who look down their noses because they think their submission or dominance is "more complete".

I don't want to get into arguements over the details of scening. It's an attitude that I have seen and felt here on the boards more than once and often enough to give me frustration.

For example, SweetDommes subs posted a very interesting thread about the "nine levels" of submission. To me the word levels implies that there is a progression. That there is one level which is deeper and more complete than all the rest. This is exactly the kind of diction that leads to that snotty attitude of my submission is deeper, completer, better than yours. I'm a nine and you're a one so neener neeener. Okay, so maybe no one said that on that particular thread (at least as far as I noticed and I did enjoy the thread, don't get me wrong) ... I just find the levels and numbering a bit demeaning.

Why is it so hard to accept that there are as many different types of submission as there are submissives and there are as many different types of dominance as there are dominants. Sometimes these individual takes will match up enough to create a beautiful relationship. Why, when so much of the rest of society may look down on us, why do we have to create some sort of heirarchy ourselves?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Why is it so hard to accept that there are as many different types of submission as there are submissives and there are as many different types of dominance as there are dominants. Sometimes these individual takes will match up enough to create a beautiful relationship. Why, when so much of the rest of society may look down on us, why do we have to create some sort of heirarchy ourselves?

I think Skyline if you look closer it is more in the subconscious mind of the reader than the writer that those judgements, and yes they are judgements, are made. For example, I mentioned I found the scale judgemental and subjective to the author's perceptions of what she felt was good, real, and right, and also said I fit into the 9 category if we were to fit anywhere, and in no way said I felt everyone should aim for that or I was better for it, and aso didn't see anyone else saying that about themselves. It seemed from some responses following though that some read I or others felt we were better or more submissive when the reality is it is the terms of my relationship and that is all. Saying it is right for me does not say it is right for everyone or better, just it is my choice, but others seem threatened and judged if someone answers differently to themselves which to me is displaying the diverstiy, not competing....but readers of responses see it differently and only they can tell us why. Maybe it is that when such things are posted for responses, we are expected to fit into the middle area and if we don't then we are on the outside edges and suspect.

Catalina

 

[s'lara]

i think it is unrealistic to believe we are all created equal when we are not. Thank god for that as well.

i don't find myself envious or competitive with one sub or another except when it comes to their attaining a place of happiness in their lives ... then i am a little green, but also glad for them as well. At least there is evidence that happiness can be had in this lifestyle and it is like watching someone from the neighborhood "make good."

There might be a driving force behind one person viewing someone else's practices in this lifestyle as "holier-than-thou." Insecurity, envy (as i mentioned before), frustration with their own lives, etc. Then there is the flip side, and it certainly is a reality. There is elitism in many aspects of life. Why is it so hard to stomach in BDSM? Because as a lifestyle minority, we should be more accepting than others have been accepting of us? Ideally, it would be great to have such an open and welcoming nature, but this culture is peopled with individuals who believe their ways to be right and true ... just like vanilla people. That would tend to create some differences in opinion and some inter-cultural (BDMS culture) rifts. Happens all the time and while it isn't utopian, it's realistic.

It would be nice to find a place where judgments don't exist and i would be happy to see this lifestyle and those in it devoid of judgmental behavior, but i am glad for the strong opinions. Sometimes differences of opinion can produce wellsprings of new ideas. That's a good thing.

lara

 

[sifer]

Just another opinion

I would agree that what is good for one is not for all and that this dos not make the one wrong.

I for example respond very well to bondage and pleasure denile. A small amount of pain can make thing interesting. If more pain is used I close off. This takes the fun out of the play, and if not checked by the dom could lead to injury before I would respond.

My SO on the other hand (we both switch) responds very well to floging, and has a real fettish for being spanked.

My peasures and hers are quite different but both are valid.

I know people from a couple of different BDSM comunitys. Some people recognise the nuonses that idividualitys provide and some will forever wander in the darkness provided by thier closed eyes.

For myself I enjoy the thoughts that are shared in literotica for the beauty of the imagination and experience behind them. Some I would like to try and others I will just read about. This is where my choise lies.

SSC means different things to different people the important thing in my book is the C. Safe noone is hurt more than by their choosing. Sane good luck at finding a real definition for that one. ................ If however it is what the reciever chooses, and hopefully enjoys.

What room do any of us have for critisizing what another calls pleasure. So long as all involved are capeable of deturmining that the actions are correct for them regardless of thier preferences.

I enjoy reading and writing about actions that I would not participate in (in reality). I am sure others do simular thing.

We all live in our own world. Make the most of the life that is yours.




Sifer

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Maybe it is that when such things are posted for responses, we are expected to fit into the middle area and if we don't then we are on the outside edges and suspect.

Once again, my twin and I think alike.

I, as most of you know, have strong opinions, on what I believe is my truth. And that is what we are basically talking about here. Everyone has their own truth about what they do, and are, in this lifestyle. Everything I post here is my opinion, just like it says in my sig line. Straight up, no B/S. And my opinion is colored by my experience. And my experience is that of a service submissive...and I don't live in....as Catalina said so well "the middle area". The day I start changing the way I post to suit people who cry wolf, is the day throw this computer out with the trash.

If you don't want to hear it, Don't post it. It's your choice.

~anelize

 

[SweetDommes]

Along the topics of what sparked this thread, as many of you know, we are in a few munch groups in the area, and we have one that sucks, one that's ok, and one that is kinda like family now ... but even in the one that is like family, we have this problem...

There are 2 people in particular who feel that their way to do D/s or BDSM (and I separate the 2 because one of them insists that D/s is not a part of BDSM) is the only way, and they look down on those of us who don't agree. One of them hates switches (although he is married to one) and Holly feels that now that he knows that she subs to me on occation, he has less respect for her ... he also tries to dominate us sometimes because he is feels that all women should be submissive to Free Males (I still don't quite get Gorean living ... nothing against it, just don't quite understand why he, at least, thinks that everyone else has to be Gorean too ...). The other is the one that is upset that the munch has as much D/s as BDSM - he feels that D/s has no place in BDSM, or should hold minimal space, and he basically told Holly and I that we suck because we do D/s. We still like both of them, but this is going to be a problem in the future, I am sure. For now, we state our opinions/beliefs and then let them argue about it for an hour ....

 

[willowthwisp]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by catalina_francisco
Maybe it is that when such things are posted for responses, we are expected to fit into the middle area and if we don't then we are on the outside edges and suspect.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Living on the outside edges will always be considered suspect in any group. To be on the outside edges of an outside edge is an interesting thought!

Also, I tend to be more judgemental over my myself rather than others! It's too easy to slide into some square or other, I recognise them at the most timely of moments, often the 11th hour. Better late than never!

I love my kinks! They are the best! I've had some great bests. Its good to read about others, its good to know what may or may not lie ahead. I recognise my boundaries as opportunities. To say if I do not have experience in one activity or another I therefore have not 'developed as far' as someone else, makes no sense to me. It is the thoughts and feelings behind the activity that is where my personal landmarks lie. As Catalina has said, to submit to an activity for the sole purpose of one's own pleasure should not to be seen as submission and cannot be considered a gift.

willowthwisp

 

[hurtme]

willowthwisp said....
to submit to an activity for the sole purpose of one's own pleasure should not to be seen as submission and cannot be considered a gift.


*sigh*...but to submit for the mutual pleasure...is that also any less submissive...I consider what I give him to be a great gift...and I know I will enjoy it...

 

[sifer]

*sigh*...but to submit for the mutual pleasure...is that also any less submissive...I consider what I give him to be a great gift...and I know I will enjoy it...

We all submit in one way or another. Even if it is by being willing to dominate.

Anything given one to another is a gift and accepting a gift is a gift to the giver.

The thought of this thread to start with was valid but it seems to me that we should not be worrieing about what a few think we should do.

No two people are exactly the same but if we find a person or person who enjoys the same experiences that we do that we should take advantage of this and not dwell on those that do not.

People like to tell me what I should think and how I should act. If I listened to them I would not even be on this web site let alone this thread.

Live your life not theirs.

Sifer

 

[sifer]

observation

Some people join the comunity just to be confrontational with the "norm". Often thies people will look for confrontation within the groop. Nothing any of us do will make them happy.

 

[lark sparrow]

Why be normal even if you could?

Hmm what reaction is it supposed to garner.... this is how the world works? I say work on the intimate relationships that are important to you and forget the rest... oops, did I say that? I mean God bless everyone forever and ever.

Even outcasts of outcasts are fulfilling a role and if they don't like it there is always change in one form or another. submission and Domination can be pure... people can let it be like that.... it's just a bit rarer and more of an individual factor rather than a societal one.

 

[MystiqDrgn]

"SNIP" munch groups ..."SNIP"...is like family...."SNIP" ...switches (although he is married to one) ...."SNIP"...dominate us sometimes ..."SNIP" Gorean living ... "SNIP"...opinions/beliefs "SNIP"....

~puts away scissors so she doesn't run and hurt herself~ Okay, now. SD I can relate in sooooo many ways. First of all, munches are "supposed" to be a place where similiar minded people of various kinks gather in a NON threatening, NON BDSM, etc place to meet "other" like minded persons. It is a safe haven for new people to the scene, perhaps a place where a top/bottom or Dom/sub or Master/slave or "put your pronoun here" to meet in a public setting to see if things can go to a future level. (ie...an after munch party) It is not to promote pissing matches (wonders if that would be considered water sports) or have others say their kink is better than anothers. I believe whomever runs your munch needs to inform Mr. Gorean that a munch is the wrong forum for his verbose.

Now, as for switches....screw him. That is the short answer. Inside me beats the heart of a true slave, which means at a moment's notice, I can filet anyone with a singletail (and have ~vicious smile~) One can feel more of a slave when told to dominate. One can appreciate being a slave after dominating. However it isn't for everyone and that is cool. Whatever tips your boat.

Goreans.....chapters and volumes are written on this whole concept. Unless he is so wealthy that he has his slave home while he brings home the bacon and has someone else cooking it as "slaves" aren't allowed to touch knives or anything that can be construed as a weapon.....then he needs a gorean lesson. Also, Him trying to dominate everyone (even sometimes) is against the gorean honor code. Like to see his face when you tell him that.....~venemous smiles~ More than likely he plays AOL gor. Ask him if he's ever read a John Norman book.

Okay that train was derailing....back on track.

Most of all, what I wish to express, that munches, goreans, lifestylers should accept the opinions and beliefs of those they gather with. To do anything less, is simply "pissing on someone's parade" (again with the water sports)

Much light and love, ~Myst~

~~grabs scissors and heads back to her lurking closet~~

 

[sifer]

humbled

MystiqDrgn

I am humbled by your writing. You have managed to put into words that wich I have been wanting to say but not achieving.

It is also obvios to me I need to go back and read John Norman's works again. Did not recal the honnor code, then again I am not Gorian.

Sifer

 

[MystiqDrgn]

Re: humbled

MystiqDrgn

I am humbled by your writing. You have managed to put into words that wich I have been wanting to say but not achieving.

It is also obvios to me I need to go back and read John Norman's works again. Did not recal the honnor code, then again I am not Gorian.

Sifer

Thank you for your kind words. In a nutshell, Goreans believe... Honor above all, death before dishonor. There are many websites that can help with the code and specific questions.

My bottom line was that we are all different and I don't impose my beliefs on others and to be honest, don't give them the chance to put theirs on mine, but I respect and honor everyone's beliefs. As long as I am me....I can't go wrong.

~Anguisette~ aka Myst

 

[SweetDommes]

Goreans.....chapters and volumes are written on this whole concept. Unless he is so wealthy that he has his slave home while he brings home the bacon and has someone else cooking it as "slaves" aren't allowed to touch knives or anything that can be construed as a weapon.....then he needs a gorean lesson. Also, Him trying to dominate everyone (even sometimes) is against the gorean honor code. Like to see his face when you tell him that.....~venemous smiles~ More than likely he plays AOL gor. Ask him if he's ever read a John Norman book.

Actually, he isn't allowed to work due to an accident that left him with some brain damage, so he stays at home. And he and his FC/wife own all of the books that are currently easily available and are looking for the 26th that finally came out. He does as close to what happens on Gor as is possible here with having children & his wife working, etc. etc. We have no problems with that, we have seen (after I have read a few of the books and explained them to Holly) that they are much closer to what we see Gorean life as than most who play online. We just wish that he wouldn't look down on us sometimes.

As for the other guy that we've been having some issues with, he & I had a long chat about how he degrades what we want to live as our lifestyle, & then Holly had a long talk with him (I am not sure of the details of her part of the conversation) and I think we finally got through to him that he can't make sweeping generalities about our choice of lifestyle and expect us to never be offended or hurt by them.

-Miss Karen

 

[MystiqDrgn]

"SNIP"... We just wish that he wouldn't look down on us sometimes. "SNIP"

-Miss Karen

Anyone who attends the munch and is a female Top/Mistress, etc he should regard as a "Free Woman" any male He should regard as a Master. Slaves....well...I can see him treating them like well...slaves.. However, He is on URTH. and Therefore needs to respect all who dwell there. ::wonders if they let Tarns land at JFK now:: I know many people who live the gorean lifestyle at home and in groups. None look down on outsiders and even when they came to my home they respected the customs of my house. I inturn, respect the customs of their home. Yes, it is possible to live it in this day and age, albeit difficult and there are just some things that just won't work. If he won't listen to you, I suggest you find a Male Master and have them have a heart to heart. You are not gorean and should not be subject to his whims. The injury may have intensified his delusions of Gorean grandure...just something to think about. I sympathize with you. I get much grief about being a slave....most think doormat. but that is another conversation. Forget when I mention I am an Anguisette....that really brings on the looks of contempt. (Perhaps a thread is called for, mayhaps not)

The other option is to avoid him. His homestone is his house not the munch. There he is a visitor. Likewise you are one too. What one does in their own home is key. Yes, it can hurt but so can letting it eat at you.

~wishing you light, love and happiness~

~Anguisette~ aka myst

 

[redelicious]

Forget when I mention I am an Anguisette....that really brings on the looks of contempt. (Perhaps a thread is called for, mayhaps not)


~wishing you light, love and happiness~

~Anguisette~ aka myst

Ok, I'm currious. What's an Anguisette?

 

[MystiqDrgn]

Ok, I'm currious. What's an Anguisette?

One who is forever entwined in the wondrous world of pain and pleasure. Hope that helps.

~Anguisette~ aka Myst

 

[redelicious]

One who is forever entwined in the wondrous world of pain and pleasure. Hope that helps.

~Anguisette~ aka Myst

Ah, that makes sense. Learned something today, thanks.

 

[hurtme]

always reminds me of the books by jaquline carey (sorry if I spelled the name wrong). I saw someone with a tattoo of phedres marque the other day, I thoght it was very interesting, I wonder if it was done on purpose, or if it was just a coincidence...

 

[FungiUg]

You know, when it comes to spirituality, I am agnostic.

What does that mean? It means that I believe there are many paths to "truth" and "enlightenment" and "god". I don't believe in any one pervading truth. Every person is different, so what is truth for me may well be completely wrong or simply irrelevent for others.

Do I believe in any one form of submission or dominance? No. They too vary from person to person.

 

[sloan]

Brian.......

{In my lurking and reading on these threads, I have noticed that there is an accepted sense of "normal" against which those who do not follow it are judged, and often seem to be disparaged and sometimes insulted when they pipe up with something outside the "norm". }

Yes, I do agree, Brian. Im a newby, but really dont care how others do their sex life- mine will be conducted as I see fit- both in bed and morally. THere are things which I cannot do- and that may change- But for NOW(which is where I have to live) it will be as i need and will insist upon it. Ive been a rebel since youth and I didnt want anyone to tell me how to do my dope-(when I was stupid enough to do it) and its the same here(OOOGA< BOOGA___DOPE!!!) Big bad word- NOT PC here! No capital letters, either- Fuck capital letters! I really want to use the reverse "You" for the bottom- Thats where the power comes from- If you dont believe it, Mr. Always right, just try to get your rocks off without a Bottom-Big problem! My bad, my rant- Just HATE convention!

Back to lurking----its a bad habit!

 

[A Desert Rose]

I bet he glows in the dark...