Major Mindfucks
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s'lara
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Never said:
i believe i used the phrase "responsible Dominant/Top." What happened to osg was obviously outside the realm of what i consider a responsible Dominant/Top. i am not sure of the specific details regarding this event, but it was clearly "non-consensual" in that her express wishes were overrun. If i am not mistaken, this man was not her Master and her encounter with him was brief (thankfully). Her situation, nor etoile's is the basis for all mf's nor do all of them have to be to the degree they endured. i also mentioned there were different levels of mf's and they are unique to the people involved. i expressed relief at her being "physically" ok, but i never condoned the actions of the Dominant in her case. i deliberately sidestepped it in an effort not to convey a judgement.
In short, not everyone who claims the title Dominant/Top/Master is fit to fill the shoes.
However, a responsible Dominant/Top (read: clearly has the sub/slave/bottom's best interest in mind) should know when to push limits and when not to push them. Placing your trust in someone doesn't guarantee the person in question won't hurt you - it is a risk we all take; vanilla or BDSM.
In her situation, osg interacted with someone who crossed the line and the end result for her was still enjoyment. Does it make it right that he crossed the line? No. His disregard of an expressly stated limit was wrong in my book. Again, her situation isn't the template for all participants of mf's.
As for not knowing when these things will happen, and how they will play out lies in the hands of the Dominant. Ideally, a Dominant/Top should know the bottom well before venturing there and also know how far to push. Discussion is key before engaging in this play - and i do mean discussing it in depth with the sub/slave/bottom long before springing it on them. The mechanics in relationships where blind trust is required are dicey at best. The partners have to know each other well ... and as it has been said before ... nothing of this nature should be attempted without trust and the foreknowledge of risk.
lara
ownedsubgal
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Never, this sort of thing is all dependent upon the personalities/needs/desires/minds of the individuals involved....speaking for myself, i am a very naturally submissive person. i have never in my life sat down/talked with a person before they were to use me, and discussed with them "limits" or boundaries of mine. i have never in my life refused to serve a person or stopped a person from using me. even when i personally consider the situation abusive and do not wish to continue it (or start it in the first place). saying "no", or "stop", has never been a part of my make-up. so, when a person goes and does something to me that they said they would not do, it is not my nature to do anything about it, to stop them or be angry...it's my nature to just accept that as fate and try and move on from it. the situation i described was not the first time i had been deceived in such a fashion...but it was the first time that particular button in me had been pushed, that button with the inscription, "you don't want to be this, but this is what you are...deal with it"....it was uncomfortable to say the least...shameful, humiliating, emotionally and mentally draining. it made me think differently of myself ...that is what made it a mindfuck.
i have to be honest, i have read the various "bdsm checklists" out there, and i just don't understand the concept....the concept of having a list of "i'll do this/i won't do that"...of being in CONTROL really, of what you are doing...of it being a CHOICE in the first place. that is completely foreign to me, because of the sort of sumissive i am. i like my soft limits pushed? i have never had limits (even before being a slave), much less "soft" and "hard" limits....so, i can't really relate to the feeling of wanting/needing to know what may happen or what may potentially happen before it actually occurs. those needs are coming from a kind of submission that i just don't identify with. so, my viewpoint on this subject will likely be very different from most. no, i don't like being deceived. no, before i was owned, i did not like it, when men would promise me a particular thing would never occur, and then they would proceed to do that very thing. it's not about limits or boundaries, but about respect, common decency even. but sometimes we can learn powerful lessons, and have valuable life experiences, from otherwise bad situations. that Dominant did not respect my wishes (thereby not respecting me ), and also deceived me...but if he had not deceived me? if he had not disrespected me? if he had not crossed that line? there would have been no mindfuck and i would have lost a valuable life experience. so, sometimes it is worth it in the end. for you, it may never be worth it, regardless of the circumstance.
i don't recommend this kind of thing outside of a loving, committed union, where the people involved know each other well and don't wish to cause any actual psychological or emotional harm to one another. i had this experience with a man i barely knew really, where there was no relationship really outside of a very casual physical/sexual one. but, that particular kind of mind fuck would not have been possible within a loving union. now what Etoile described with her Daddy is the sort of mindfuck that can occur within a loving and committed relationship...(btw such an experience would irrevocably emotionally devastate me, personally)
James, maybe i'm misunderstanding your posts, but it seems you think the situation i described in this thread occured with my Master, or with someone my Master had use me (when you said "her Sir was giving her what she craves"). i have a habit of referring to men who use me as "Sir"...probably because most of my experiences are with much older men and i'm a southern gal...but i just wanted to clarify that that particular Dominant was not "my" Sir or my anything else, nor did he know me to know what i craved and what i needed, and the situation was not something i "liked" in the least.
i have to be honest, i have read the various "bdsm checklists" out there, and i just don't understand the concept....the concept of having a list of "i'll do this/i won't do that"...of being in CONTROL really, of what you are doing...of it being a CHOICE in the first place. that is completely foreign to me, because of the sort of sumissive i am. i like my soft limits pushed? i have never had limits (even before being a slave), much less "soft" and "hard" limits....so, i can't really relate to the feeling of wanting/needing to know what may happen or what may potentially happen before it actually occurs. those needs are coming from a kind of submission that i just don't identify with. so, my viewpoint on this subject will likely be very different from most. no, i don't like being deceived. no, before i was owned, i did not like it, when men would promise me a particular thing would never occur, and then they would proceed to do that very thing. it's not about limits or boundaries, but about respect, common decency even. but sometimes we can learn powerful lessons, and have valuable life experiences, from otherwise bad situations. that Dominant did not respect my wishes (thereby not respecting me ), and also deceived me...but if he had not deceived me? if he had not disrespected me? if he had not crossed that line? there would have been no mindfuck and i would have lost a valuable life experience. so, sometimes it is worth it in the end. for you, it may never be worth it, regardless of the circumstance.
i don't recommend this kind of thing outside of a loving, committed union, where the people involved know each other well and don't wish to cause any actual psychological or emotional harm to one another. i had this experience with a man i barely knew really, where there was no relationship really outside of a very casual physical/sexual one. but, that particular kind of mind fuck would not have been possible within a loving union. now what Etoile described with her Daddy is the sort of mindfuck that can occur within a loving and committed relationship...(btw such an experience would irrevocably emotionally devastate me, personally)
James, maybe i'm misunderstanding your posts, but it seems you think the situation i described in this thread occured with my Master, or with someone my Master had use me (when you said "her Sir was giving her what she craves"). i have a habit of referring to men who use me as "Sir"...probably because most of my experiences are with much older men and i'm a southern gal...but i just wanted to clarify that that particular Dominant was not "my" Sir or my anything else, nor did he know me to know what i craved and what i needed, and the situation was not something i "liked" in the least.
Daedalus77
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Isn't the mindfuck in the eye of the beholder? I have done somethings to one sub I would never do to another. Some subs want to be pushed to a place they will not admit they want to go to but are grateful they were taken there. Knowing the line is the tricky part. Can I tell where that line always is? No. That's why you have to talk about things afterwards when pushing limits.
AngelicAssassin
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and hold, and comfort, and ...Daedalus77 said:
Etoile
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This is why I prefer the type of list seen here. A "willingness scale" is much more useful to me than a yes/no type listing. (That list's y/n is used for whether you have done the activity or not.)ownedsubgal said:
Yes indeed, my relationship with Daddy is loving and committed. It is wholly D/s based, but that doesn't mean there is no regard for the other as a human being. Daddy is not just my top and I am not just a bottom, we are lovers as well. I agree with the above that mindfucks like the one I experienced can be safely played with in a loving union. This doesn't mean it was any less of a mindfuck - I really did feel intense emotional pain at the time - just that it was a safe mindfuck.
A lot of people have made reference to the idea that what I experienced would leave them crying for weeks or devastated forever, etc. I think this is where the loving union comes strongly into play. I am not permanently damaged because I have trust in my relationship with my Daddy. I can see the evening for what it was: a hard mindfuck (with some physical fucking thrown in too), and not reality. Yes, at the time I believed it was real, but having been shown it was a mindfuck I am able to remain secure in my relationship with Daddy.
ownedsubgal
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Etoile said:
Etoile, i can understand that for you and your Daddy, such an experience could be okay in the end because you are both secure in your union and love for one another, and you know it was not "real" (the mindfuck). but my Master and i don't engage in anything that isn't real to the core...so if he were to say something like that, he would be dead serious, and it would signal the end of our union. if he were to tell me/show me that what he said was not true, that of course he was right about me, of course he still loves me, etc...i would just be confused as all heck and wonder why he would be playing such games with me. so for me that wouldn't be a mindfuck so much as a confusing and painful kind of roleplay. mindfucks with me always end with a realization of a cold, difficult truth. something i don't want to be so, but is so nonetheless. all unions are different and all minds are different, so the mindfuck especially and it's purpose and meaning will differ from person to person.
and btw thanx for posting the link to the willingness scale. although even on that scale, it talks about things like hard and soft limits, what you will do and won't do, etc., and those kinds of things i just can't relate to.
Desdemona
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I've read this thread with interest. Much of what you guys describe sort of leaves me speechless. I think its all about the relationship and the dominant knowing the sub real well. Some of us are just not cut out to cope with such an intense emotional experience. Etoile, I'm very glad it worked out for you.
Etoile
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I hesitate to agree with you that the mindfuck wasn't "real," as my emotions at the time were definitely in line with what I would be feeling if these revelations had turned out to be true. I genuinely thought this was my new reality. I genuinely thought this was going to signal the beginning of the end of our relationship. If I hadn't actually believed all of this, it wouldn't have been an effective mindfuck. (I also kind of infer that you're belittling anything that isn't 100% real as you describe it, but I'm hoping that's not your actual implication.)ownedsubgal said:
As for the "willingness scale" - you've said many times that you don't have hard or soft limits. So you can just ignore that part of the text, right? Pretend it isn't there and still use the rest of it for self-exploration?
Etoile
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Thanks, Des! If I had been told beforehand that I was going to be put through that emotional whirlwind, I would have said I couldn't take it either. Even re-reading my own tale sounds kind of alarming! I definitely agree that a deep personal connection is required before this kind of play can be harmless (i.e., not leave lasting emotional scars), and I feel lucky that Daddy trusted our relationship enough to be comfortable playing in this way.Desdemona said:
catalina_francisco
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Must admit I have mixed feelings about mind fucks, especially of this degree. Trust is a necessary element of the relationship, but I also tend to think the major mindfuck can have other lasting effects.....as in beginning a process where the submissive becomes immune, or complacent to a degree, because they develop a sense of questioning when their D is performing an exercise of mindfuck or reality. Is natural to subconsciously, if not consciously, have that thought in your mind when each new episode of major upset occurs, and can develop into a false sense of security or insecurity. Trust does not come into this as the exercise is for the D to have you believe them, but once they have fucked you over so to speak and shown it was not real, the ground begins to shift beneath the feet in knowing when reality stops and fantasy begins. Don't think I am making this as clear as I could..interruptions!!
Catalina
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Etoile said:
Etoile, you misunderstood me. i in no way meant to imply that the mindfuck your Daddy subjected you to was not "real", in that the emotions/feelings/pain/shock you felt was not real. of course that was real...if it weren't, there would be no mindfuck. what wasn't real were your Daddy's words...he didn't mean what he said. you took him seriously (as any loving sub would their Dom), and thought he was basically saying it was over...but in the end, you learned it wasn't real, wasn't true. all was well after all. so you (eventually) felt that comfort and security in knowing that it wasn't reality. the Dominant who exposed me to my first mindfuck experience was being 100% dead scary serious...there was no comforting or reassurance when all was over...because he meant every word he said and everything he did. but he had portrayed himself and his feelings to be the very opposite of all these things. and i had always thought of myself as the very opposite of that word. so then i get this splash of cold water in the face telling me, um, this IS who you are. like it or not, accept it or not, this is you. those things are what made the experience such a major mindfuck for me. our experiences were very different, but similar in the feelings we had of not wanting to believe it, not wanting it to be so.
i don't "belittle" roleplay, it's just not something i can relate to...finding any kind of satisfaction or even arousal (getting juicy) over something that isn't straight up reality. i need realness at all times, even if reality is stark and cold and harsh...it's part of what gives me a sense of security in my relationship with Daddy, knowing that even in our sex life there are no games, no funning around or acting out of any roles....if everything is real, all the time, if it's never fantasy....then it's like...i feel more secure in US...in everything we are, everything we feel. but that is just me and my issue, i'll be the first to admit i'm a strange bird.
now as for using checklists for self exploration? don't need any lists for that, my big mouth and Daddy's open ears handle that pretty well. i understand the purpose of such checklists, before playing/interacting with partners, and i'm sure for many they are useful communication tools. but when i was "out there", none of that ever applied to me. doesn't mean i wouldn't communicate...if the situation called for it, i'd always try and describe my personality/nature a bit to my partners beforehand so they would know what to expect, kinda. and i'd likewise ask them questions about their nature/personality....but as for actual activities, saying i liked this or didn't like that would be pretty irrelevant since i knew i'd do whatever they desired regardless. maybe they should come up with one of these checklists for subbies like myself.
Johnny Mayberry
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Hmmmm...nothing much to add, except that we should note that this is something for the 'veterans', not a game that newbies should consider playing at.
Netzach
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I dunno if logging the most ass whupping man hours ensures a safe ride, JM, though I agree with the sentiment.
I think that this is a game best played between people who know one another, people who know what an edgy and difficult test would be versus irrevocable scarring. It involves knowing something about the other person.
OSG could never handle Etoile's scenario, other people could handle a deal like Etoiles but not like OSG's....it's all very relative and very very *very* personal.
I can be new to the scene, but if I'm not as new to the person I'm entering it *with* then psycho-SM is more likely to go well.
There are plenty of long time long term hacks who can whip and tie up wonderfully and have NO business playing with people's heads.
I think that this is a game best played between people who know one another, people who know what an edgy and difficult test would be versus irrevocable scarring. It involves knowing something about the other person.
OSG could never handle Etoile's scenario, other people could handle a deal like Etoiles but not like OSG's....it's all very relative and very very *very* personal.
I can be new to the scene, but if I'm not as new to the person I'm entering it *with* then psycho-SM is more likely to go well.
There are plenty of long time long term hacks who can whip and tie up wonderfully and have NO business playing with people's heads.
Johnny Mayberry
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I meant it in the spirit that you have expressed...it isn't milage, it is experience and awareness and self-knowledge. This is a game that shouldn't be taken lightly...Netzach said:
s'lara
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Pure said:
Question.
In view of your personal theory Pure, what happens if/when you run out of ideas on how to "reinforce" submission? There are patterns to everything ... even submission. What i am curious about is what happens when you've reached the "ho hum" stage, as you put it, and there are no other "reinforcement" lessons to be had?
Thanks in advance for entertaining the question.
lara
Johnny Mayberry
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s'lara said:
It wasn't addressed to me, but I'd like to take a stab at it.
I am reminded of the Masters level of athletics, a field occupied by those who have already hit the pinnacle of success. Whydo they keep going, when it is just more of the same, with diminished returns? I guess the challenge becomes maintaining the status quo, because if you aren't getting better, you are getting worse.
in other words, there is always a need for additional reinforcement, because lessons learned once sometimes need to be learned again, through the perspective of experience.
s'lara
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Johnny Mayberry said:
A valid viewpoint to me. i understand the mentality of maintenance ... particularly of a requisite high standard. i just wonder if there is ever a brick wall of sorts ... a "dead end" as it were. i guess the goal changes in a sense if i were to apply the thinking as You recited JM ... the cultivation and maintenance of couples/family's status quo.
lara
