Male Curiosity About Lesbians

[SlaveMasterUK]

I don't feel there's much I can add to this that has not already been said, but I can iterate again that asking a question that is effectively "what makes lesbians lesbian" is very much a broad and categorising question. Particularly where you suggest the majority of lesbians have short hair: I don't know the statistics behind this, but I'd say that if you wanted to know the mode lesbian hairdo, this is because you're going to create a "real world stereotype" in your story.

There are lots of people, male and female, who have different hairstyles. You could say, for example, that you were writing a story about motorcyclists and you wanted to know if it is true that the majority of motorcyclists have long hair. If you proved this to be true, and wrote your story with a long-haired motorcyclist BECAUSE of the statistics, you would be stereotyping. I am a motorcyclist and I don't have long hair.

As has been said before, lesbians are like everyone else - they will wear what they like, have their hair how they like, date who they like and do the things they like to do in bed. There are a huge number of preferences, kinks, fetishes etc. that abound in heterosexual people; they apply also to gay/bi people.

I would also disagree with Colleen's suggestion that male lesbian writers are writing for men. I write lesbian stories for a collective audience of males and females, gay, bi or straight. I would say a small majority of my feedback is from women, a large minority from men, and a bit in between that is anonymous.

Incidentally, my lesbians tend to be young, attractive and feminine. Usually one of them is heavily into domination and denial - fetishes that straight people have, too.

ax

 

[gauchecritic]

Sar,

I think the apparent negative reaction was because the old hands on the board (and there aren't many older than me except maybe Og and Pops [my dad]) have seen the question many many times posted by many many people.

You'd be quite amazed at the number of newbies whose first post is to solicit a fem. point of view for a story they are writing. Quite often it's their only post in that guise.
I have no personal experience of it but I'm pretty sure that they use that first communication as a means to trawl the 'pretty ladies'.

I was quite serious in my reply, and you are spot on when you point up the ludicrous situation of fitting a complex question into a hundred or so words, the same goes for replies.

So let's just shake hands and start afresh.

Gauche

 

[Sarastro]

So let's just shake hands and start afresh.

Absolutely! I intend to be here awhile!

 

[Sarastro]

I hope I'm not offending anybody too much, but I think there is a point here that needs to be made - and I may spend more than a hundred words making it, so I hope it doesn't come across as too deceptively simplistic...

I find it interesting and more than a little ironic that, in a field so abjectly and superlatively gratuitous as porn stories, one encounters a distinct reluctance to talk about the stereotypes (if that is what they are) that are so frequently - so formulaicly! - used in the stories themselves.

Yes, I inquire about lesbians because I want to describe the specifically lesbian aspect of the characters in my stories; an aspect which in these particular type of stories is extremely important, most often even to the exclusion of most other aspects. You cannot disagree on this.

Thus, it is, objectively, totally and utterly relevant and pertinent to ask about these aspects, for this purpose. What we write about is sex. Why do people suddenly insist that, being given such a question, lesbians must suddenly be protected and vindicated as "real people", implying that it is terrible, shallow and deeply offensive to describe them as anything less than that, even though this is what is being done in the vast majorities of the stories involving them? Stories that *we*, right here, have written! I see a double standard.

However, there is a reason for this, and a very understandable one, namely that gays, male and female, are generally a persecuted and oppressed minority which it is the duty of sane, decent people to defend and at the very least tolerate on equal footing with everyone else, and of course I'm all for that. Of course!

But in this particular case and in this particular place, dealing directly and specifically with material which, as a general rule (which I don't think I personally conform to, except perhaps in a very few cases, but that's beside the point), is utterly gratuitous and stereotyping, and has *nothing*, or almost nothing, to do with reality, this kind of attitude quite simply constitutes hypocrisy.

OK, so it's affirmative action, but might we not possibly look beyond that for a little while? Can we please treat lesbians the same as everybody else, instead of instantly rushing to defend their right to be real, well-rounded people? If I could find out more about why lesbians do the specific things that only lesbians do (not all of them, but many of them), then I could write a better story which would be more satisfying to both myself and the readers, *and* be educational, to boot.

My intention is not to paint stereotypes, but to show part of reality. No matter how I describe a lesbian, anybody - certainly me and certainly you - should be able to understand that this is not a statement about how all lesbians probably are, but just a description of one fictional lesbian that happens to have this particular role in this particular story - a role, at that, which, as in erotica generally, may well be born of sheer wishful thinking.

But, let's not pursue my inquiries about lesbians any further here. I think it is a natural curiosity, but I'll find out more by other means. It doesn't seem like you can tell me much, because it looks to me - and of course I could be wrong - like you yourselves have always been afraid to even acknowledge that you might be interested in knowing these things. Somewhere beneath that veneer of PC civility, though, I bet you have a keen interest! After all, you're here for the stories, aren't you?

Socrates said: Know Thyself.

 

[minsue]

Please don't think you're disliked simply from one thread. I can't speak for anyone else, but it takes me at least two threads to dislike someone. I am guessing that the reason so many people didn't want to talk about the various stereotypes is that most of the authors here shy away from stereotyping in their stories. No one sets out to write that two dimensionally and certainly no one wants to think that they do!

For myself, I just always cringe whenever a particular group is picked apart and discussed as "them" or "they" no matter how well meaning the people doing the analyzing are. Yes, I am one of those hyper-sensitive PC people. Please feel free to ignore me and when I am particularly irritating you have my permission to throw fruit.

On that note, welcome (again) to the AH!

- Mindy, non-author

 

[Guest]

You know, Sarastro, I might have tried even harder to express myself, even though I think others have done well enough, but your last paragraph is insulting. How long have you been on this forum? I hope in real life you're not such a judgmental and officious twat.

And quoting Socrates to boot.

Perdita

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Can we please treat lesbians the same as everybody else, instead of instantly rushing to defend their right to be real, well-rounded people? If I could find out more about why lesbians do the specific things that only lesbians do (not all of them, but many of them), then I could write a better story which would be more satisfying to both myself and the readers, *and* be educational, to boot.

My intention is not to paint stereotypes, but to show part of reality. No matter how I describe a lesbian, anybody - certainly me and certainly you - should be able to understand that this is not a statement about how all lesbians probably are, but just a description of one fictional lesbian that happens to have this particular role in this particular story - a role, at that, which, as in erotica generally, may well be born of sheer wishful thinking.

Yes, let's treat lesbians the same as everyone else. Let's acknowledge that what you and most other men find attractive in women, another woman might also find attractive and for the same reason...despite social conditioning. And let's lay down the fact that for as long as people have been having sex and in as many different ways, there is simply nothing out there as exotic as what you seem to have in mind. The funny thing about wanting to be educational in erotic writing is that the reality of most things are simply not erotic. How many stories have you read where a girl loses her virginity and experiences a mind-blowing orgasm? I may be flying solo on this one, but of all the women I've talked to there has not been a single one that got off on her first time...coincidence? I think not. But the stories I read here come closest to this reality by saying 'it hurt her a little...but she still found release.' Wishful thinking is what I want when I read a story...and while I know from speaking to lesbians that are friends is that their sex life is as outstanding and ordinary as any other. From the women I know, there is not a secret code or language and most times their funnily named 'gaydar' is less than fifty percent accurate. It seems to me you've got it in your head that there is a little ESP and Divine Power at work when two women are together, but I think what makes lesbians exotic is that you just never know for sure what's going on behind closed doors. If you expose that they prefer to sit around in sweats, eating popcorn and watching documentaries (rather than getting buck-wild on the balcony while hanging upside down from the wind chimes) then the mystery that makes it fun will be gone and I most certainly will not enjoy your story.

I haven't been here long, but I have been here long enough to know that the others that post here are not 'afraid' of any question and are actually quite patient in answering the dumbest questions imaginable. So the simple fact that you got so many well thought/well written ideas that stem from personal experience makes me think you should cool out on thinking people are avoiding you or shutting you down.

-E

good luck unlocking the mystery of lesbianism...i prefer to live in ignorance (I even ignore my lesbian friends when they insist they have sex less than I do...I just don't want to hear it)

 

[pop_54]

Hmmmmm

You know, Sarastro, I might have tried even harder to express myself, even though I think others have done well enough, but your last paragraph is insulting. How long have you been on this forum? I hope in real life you're not such a judgmental and officious twat.

And quoting Socrates to boot.

Perdita

Purdy:

Socrates, didn't Manchester United sign him up from a South American team the other year, I may be wrong of course.

 

[Sarastro]

Mindy said:
> Please don't think you're disliked simply from one thread.

The thought never entered my mind! Some people are being pretty helpful!

>For myself, I just always cringe whenever a particular group is picked apart
>and discussed as "them" or "they" no matter how well meaning the people
>doing the analyzing are.

Oh, I do, too. In fact I find the entire idea of "sexual orientations" quite laughable. To accept an orientation is to accept a mindless sex-centric worldview, incl. the implication that feelings of love can only grow from this previously established base of your chosen sexual orientation. It's extremely silly. Love depends on meeting the right person, who may be of whatever gender. If the people that love each other like each other's bodies and choose to have sex, good for them. Ideally, I don't see the need for "orientations".

lucky-E-leven said:
>Yes, let's treat lesbians the same as everyone else. Let's acknowledge that what
>you and most other men find attractive in women, another woman might also find
>attractive and for the same reason...despite social conditioning.

Exactly.

>And let's lay down the fact that for as long as people have been having sex and in
>as many different ways, there is simply nothing out there as exotic as what you
>seem to have in mind.

You mean educational erotica...?

>The funny thing about wanting to be educational in erotic writing is that the
>reality of most things are simply not erotic.

Well, to me, what is really erotic is intimate emotions. If such are involved, I believe it is possible to write a genuinely erotic story despite including all manners of realism. In fact, while I do spend much time "escaping" into my imagination, that is only because the world as we know it is imperfect. If things were as they're supposed to be, we would be free to love each other unconditionally. Since I believe that is our nature, and that we are slowly evolving in that direction anyway, reality is actually my ideal. Reality is the ultimate turn-on. Because it's real. Genuine. It matters. It is so much more lucid and intense than what is simply going on inside one's head. If it's real, so is the happiness it brings.

>How many stories have you read where a girl loses her virginity and experiences
>a mind-blowing orgasm? I may be flying solo on this one, but of all the women I've
>talked to there has not been a single one that got off on her first time...coincidence?
>I think not.

Your disappointment with the lack of realism in these stories indicates that you originally approached them as something that you hoped to find realism in. Many inexperienced people also tend to approach porn movies as sources of knowledge about sex. This is not good, because what's really supposed to be the substance of love-making - emotion - just isn't part of that mix. Pornography is, by and large, a masturbation industry catering to a masturbation audience. Pure sex, no emotion. It's actually apathetic, and perpetuates apathy. And while raw reality might not always be pretty, at least we have the choice to try and produce erotica that blazes a trail in a better direction, trying to show how things *ought* to be, including the emotions and the sensuality, and staving off the apathy of current mainstream porn. I, for one, try to do that.

>But the stories I read here come closest to this reality by saying 'it hurt her a little...but
>she still found release.'

It's different for everybody. One girl I used to know said there was no pain at all when she lost her virginity.

>From the women I know, there is not a secret code or language and most times
>their funnily named 'gaydar' is less than fifty percent accurate.

Well, that's good to hear! *Everybody's* confused about these things. All the more reason to talk about it and set things straight - so to speak.

>It seems to me you've got it in your head that there is a little ESP and Divine
>Power at work when two women are together

No, I'm not being sweeping and generalizing. I'm perfectly aware that the things I'm talking about have a rather limited scope. But there *is* a lesbian community with terminologies and preferences and habits all their own, and many of those who aren't part of that community, but hangs around it, come into contact with these terminologies and stuff, too. In fact, it is my impression that many gay people *want* to spread the use of "their" terms as far and wide as possible, because they see it as serving their interests. But anyway.

>but I think what makes lesbians exotic is that you just never know for sure
>what's going on behind closed doors.

I never know that with straight couples, either. No difference there.

>If you expose that they prefer to sit around in sweats, eating popcorn and
>watching documentaries (rather than getting buck-wild on the balcony while
>hanging upside down from the wind chimes) then the mystery that makes it
>fun will be gone and I most certainly will not enjoy your story.

Then you are not my audience. A solved mystery is never a bad thing. Increased understanding leads to increased wonder. OK, I should probably add a caveat to that, but I can't think of one.

>you should cool out on thinking people are avoiding you or shutting you down.

There was no such stuff in my mind, I assure you. I speak to the issue, not to anything personal.

Perdita:
Don't get mad, get even.

 

[The_Darkness]

Lesbian Thread Beat to death

Well basically, everyone seems to be right. Lesbians are regular people just like you and me and that lady over there. As a matter of fact, there was a study done at a university here in America (forgive me, I forget which one, though I'm lead to believe it was Iowa State) that said that roughly 1 out of 7 of the 1000 women queries were lesbians. 2 out of the 6 women left were either bi-curious or considered themselves bi-curious.

One of the first statements in this thread was basically that men envision lesbians (or bisexual women) as sex machines, that they can never get enough. I know probably 20 girls who admit to being lesbian or split about 50/50 for their male/femail partners: about 25% of them are nymphomanics. Which, coincidentally, follows the statistics of most of the rest of my friends. If that's not the case where you live, I suggest you do all you can (while keeping your personal safety and health in mind) to make sure that that's no longer the case. Human beings are one of the few creatures on earth that are hard-wired to really enjoy sex....but it has to be done right.

One little note though, and this is a huge point that I keep encountering: the idea that women getting more out of a woman-woman relationship because of the mental stimulation as opposed to the physical relationship. Right. I don't know where these women live, but any of the thousands that I've met in my life will almost readily flat out admit that it's not the thought that Sally will be there for Janey to talk about the Democratic Primary when they're done; it's the feeling of Janey's tongue and what it's doing right now. And her fingers. And her body. And.....

 

[Guest]

Re: Hmmmmm

Purdy:
Socrates, didn't Manchester United sign him up from a South American team the other year, I may be wrong of course.

D'oh! What was I thinking?! Thanks, Pirate, I'm fine now.

Perdita & Co.

 

[destinie21]

But in this particular case and in this particular place, dealing directly and specifically with material which, as a general rule (which I don't think I personally conform to, except perhaps in a very few cases, but that's beside the point), is utterly gratuitous and stereotyping, and has *nothing*, or almost nothing, to do with reality, this kind of attitude quite simply constitutes hypocrisy.

OK, so it's affirmative action, but might we not possibly look beyond that for a little while? Can we please treat lesbians the same as everybody else, instead of instantly rushing to defend their right to be real, well-rounded people? If I could find out more about why lesbians do the specific things that only lesbians do (not all of them, but many of them), then I could write a better story which would be more satisfying to both myself and the readers, *and* be educational, to boot.

My intention is not to paint stereotypes, but to show part of reality. No matter how I describe a lesbian, anybody - certainly me and certainly you - should be able to understand that this is not a statement about how all lesbians probably are, but just a description of one fictional lesbian that happens to have this particular role in this particular story - a role, at that, which, as in erotica generally, may well be born of sheer wishful thinking.

But, let's not pursue my inquiries about lesbians any further here. I think it is a natural curiosity, but I'll find out more by other means. It doesn't seem like you can tell me much, because it looks to me - and of course I could be wrong - like you yourselves have always been afraid to even acknowledge that you might be interested in knowing these things. Somewhere beneath that veneer of PC civility, though, I bet you have a keen interest! After all, you're here for the stories, aren't you?

Socrates said: Know Thyself.

I'm a lesbian and I don't find your curiosity offensive so much as I dislike your penchant to be asinie. (on this thread.)

 

[The_Darkness]

Someone's a little angy, and quite probably rightfully so. Rock on destinie.

What everything boils down to is that people are people. Some people are girls, some are guys. Some of those people like people of the same sex, some people like people of the other sex, and for some, it doesn't matter what exactly they get from whom, so long as they get something.

In the big picture, it all boils down to what turns us on and gets us going. The male fascination with lesbians is a deep seated psychological issue, and it probably will be solved right after we figure out why women are constantly yelling at us men to put the damn seat down on the toilet when it takes just as much energy for them to do it themselves , and quite frankly, just as much time (and usually less than the yelling that most of us guys get for leaving it up). However, I digress.

I personally find lesbians absolutely sexy. It's the eroticism of the act, the beauty, and the lust-inspiring vision. I don't know why I feel that way, I just do. It's probably because there's women pleasuring each other as only women know how to pleasure other women. A majority of the lesbians that I know are very social, very out going, and despite their many differing styles and personalities, all very sexy, but then so are most of the women I know in general.

In our fiction and in the porn industry, we are given impossible situations: situations that never come up in real life, characters that are more incredibly easy than real people and sexual positions that some of us would have to be a contortionist to pull off. This is not an accurate representation of the truth: It's fantasy.

Yes, it is a stereotype, and stereotypes piss some people off saying that they only perpetuate bigotry or harsh feelings or discrimination. If they do, pull your head out of the sand, jump into the 1970's and think for yourself. I'm Irish, but that doesn't mean I immediately think all jokes about and slams against Irish people are heinous...Hell no. I usually laugh at them harder than everyone else, because I'm laughing at the stereotype of the drunken, potato eating, asskicking Irishman (or woman).

By the way, Socrates also said that the wisest person is the person who admits they know nothing at all. If all we can have a glimpse of knowledge of is ourselves, then I say that we are truely blessed.

 

[Guest]

Dark, I find your comments intriguing. Perhaps comments on what non-gay or lesbian persons think of the 'other', at more personal (than generalized) levels, would be more interesting and meaningful than trying to come up with "what they do".

For instance, you say you find lesbians sexy. I don't, not in any general way, though I have been attracted to both dykes and straight women, yet have only had sex with men (which I love).

I recall one very butch looking dyke who instantly aroused me and the girlfriend I was with (a Persian woman who has only ever been straight too). We talked about it as we both sensed each other's arousal. I did wonder if it was that the dyke seemed extraordinarily masculine.

Anyway, that's one example of the kind of thing I'd like to learn about from others, including straight men who also find an attraction to other men, occasionally or once even.

Perdita

 

[gauchecritic]

If you expose that they prefer to sit around in sweats, eating popcorn and watching documentaries (rather than getting buck-wild on the balcony while hanging upside down from the wind chimes)

-E

Damn.

And now you're going to tell me that when you straight girls hang out you don't strip down to your underwear and have pillow fights.

I hate growing up.

Gauche

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Damn.

And now you're going to tell me that when you straight girls hang out you don't strip down to your underwear and have pillow fights.

I hate growing up.

Gauche

Oh no...we still do that, but it is not near as exotic as I imagine a lesbian balcony upside down wind chime encounter would be

growing up is no fun...i am fighting it!

-E

is it an omen that this is post # 69 for me? i wonder about these things...

 

[SlaveMasterUK]

Sarastro,

I'll chuck in another two-cents here and bring this whole thing back to the one defining original problem that I think exists here:

If I could find out more about why lesbians do the specific things that only lesbians do
What exactly do you *think* these specific things are? It seems from this sentence that you have some idea that lesbians get up to some strange and imaginable things that us male lesbian-writers could never possibly think of.

The fact that you follow up with (not all of them, but many of them), then I could write a better story which would be more satisfying to both myself and the readers, *and* be educational, to boot. doesn't really make any difference to the context of the original question.

As regards there being a lesbian community with terminologies and preferences and habits all their own, well, that sounds like the same thing as above. I could agree with you on the community and perhaps the terminologies (perhaps this highlights my own ignorance) but as regards preferences and habits, well IMO no more so than any other people. Whether 'preferences and habits' relates to sexual kinks or fetishes, or what that person likes to watch on TV or prefers to eat for Sunday lunch is irrelevant - it just suggests that you're looking for some big mystery surrounding the whole lesbian scene that you can bring into your lesbian stories for more "realism". Having read a number of lesbian stories from female writers, I really don't think there is any mystery to solve.

I have not been offended by any of your posts and I hope you haven't taken offence to my replies. I'm simply having trouble understanding the concept of your question.

As regards dispensing with stereotypes and turning your lesbian characters into something other than unstoppable nymphomaniacs, then I would personally tackle this by writing a longer story following the relationship of two lesbian characters. In the story they do everything a real life lesbian couple would do, like watch TV or go out for dinner or go clubbing; sometimes they argue, sometimes they cry, sometimes they have early nights and sometimes they make love - and sometimes the sex is fantastic, sometimes it is not.

Provided the story had good momentum, direction, and was well thought-out, there's no reason why it could not be a very good story. But it would not be erotica. Agreed, parts of it would be sexy or romantic or both, and some more so than others, but it would not be erotica - it would be a romance, or a thriller, or whatever genre the plot fits into. Maybe this is what you've intended all along - and if that's the case, what are you waiting for?

ax

 

[angela146]

... The male fascination with lesbians is a deep seated psychological issue, ...I personally find lesbians absolutely sexy. It's the eroticism of the act, the beauty, and the lust-inspiring vision. I don't know why I feel that way, I just do. It's probably because there's women pleasuring each other as only women know how to pleasure other women. A majority of the lesbians that I know are very social, very out going, and despite their many differing styles and personalities, all very sexy, but then so are most of the women I know in general.

Um... maybe you just like women, regardless of whether they're lesbian, bi, streight, or left-handed Serbian auto mechanics.

 

[oggbashan]

Um... maybe you just like women, regardless of whether they're lesbian, bi, streight, or left-handed Serbian auto mechanics. [/B]

Left handed Serbian FEMALE auto mechanic? Where? Lead me to her. - please.

Og (who has three left-handed daughters and is ambi-sinsitrous)

 

[Guest]

Ogg, your knowledge of and seeming propensity for such, of fetishes, astonishes me. Humours me too.

right-handedly,

Perdita

 

[angela146]

Dark, I find your comments intriguing. Perhaps comments on what non-gay or lesbian persons think of the 'other', at more personal (than generalized) levels, would be more interesting and meaningful than trying to come up with "what they do".

well said...

For instance, you say you find lesbians sexy. I don't, not in any general way, though I have been attracted to both dykes and straight women, yet have only had sex with men (which I love).

I recall one very butch looking dyke who instantly aroused me and the girlfriend I was with (a Persian woman who has only ever been straight too). We talked about it as we both sensed each other's arousal. I did wonder if it was that the dyke seemed extraordinarily masculine.

For me, it's the reverse. I'm more attracted to feminine women. Masculinity in a woman sets up some kind of erotic dissonance in me. It might be a mismatch between the pheromones and the persona, I’m not sure.

That’s the whole point… what makes gay/bi women tick depends on the particular woman.

 

[oggbashan]

I have actually been to Serbia while it was still ruled by Tito.

Women did many traditionally 'male' jobs then. However the one I really liked was a waitress in a hotel. She came to work on her motorcycle with her friend riding sidesaddle behind.

Both arrived wearing black minidresses with white lace aprons. I had never seen that on a motorcycle before, even though it was the 1960s.

Talking to her in Serbo-Croat was hard. We compromised on fractured Italian which seemed to work.

Og

PS. We lost the Intourist Guide after the first night. She had been assigned to us because we were camping. Her idea of camping was a caravan. Our idea was backpacking over a mountain range and then pitching tents and cooking over a camp fire. She left after the ants found her sleeping bag. I don't know who put them there.

 

[angela146]

Left handed Serbian FEMALE auto mechanic? Where? Lead me to her. - please.

That would be correct. I don't actually know of any but I bet that "Darkness" might just be attracted to her if we found her.

And now a pun for all the Left handed Serbian Female auto mechanics...

Yugo Girl...

 

[CharleyH]

Anyway, since I'm working on some stories about bisexual and lesbian women, I have now been inspired to do a bit of research .... I could also just ask my questions here, but I don't know if it'll somehow be seen as bad form.

But in order to get the emotions right, I need more facts about bi & lesbian culture(s?). Can anyone help?

Sar, seems like I am always chasing you down to answer your questions . . lol

First off, not all, but many of the men who actually end up getting a GF with a healthy lesbian appetite, end up feeling more threatened than her being with another guy. In reality. I'm sure there must be an article out there somewhere on this whole psychology.

You could watch porn but there is very little true 'lesbian' porn because well, how obvious might that be? But those films would certainly be more realistic in terms of lesbian sex - well in the context of compared to straight porn with lesbians. Not all lesbians have implants and perfect bodies. Hm, just like the rest of humanity? However, there is 'some' more realistic porn out there. I don't know what the company is, but there is one out of San Fransisco if you really want to get a taste. Personally, I don't like any les/real/straight porn. It bores me. But that's just me, there are plenty who do, obviously

Everyone in the world is unique, and what makes a character interesting is figuring out what motivates them personally lesbian, gay, straight or transgendered. There are lesbians who probably look like you, there are lesbians who look like Milla Jovovich - the world is diverse, thank god.

Follow my link, I write lesbian.

I understand what you are asking, and am not afraid to answer any good questions that come my way. If you want me to give you details, I will say, "didn't you read the stories" . . . and then might be tempted to utter fuck off . . . but any other questions would be acceptable to me.

CH

 

[Guest]

And now a pun for all the Left handed Serbian Female auto mechanics... Yugo Girl...

Angela, very good. And I appreciated your response to my post, very interesting.

Perdita