Moths - Tell us about your flame and why...

[Kajira Callista]

But the hurt hurt is so good! I mean, part of the attraction of the flame is the pain it gives you. When you're eroticized to pain, it attracts you, even if when you know that it could destroy you. (and emotional distress can be just as intoxicating. I think this how a mind fuck works, but I don't know. I've never experienced one.) This is part of the struggle with the demon. I know that I like the "ow" but I've yet to make the transition from self inflicted pain to other inflicted pain. If self inflicted pain is so damn intoxiating/drugging or addictive, I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to stop a PYL if need be. I know that responsible PYL's would stop at a safeword. I've hurt myself long past that grey "safe" area. If I can't safeword myself, how am I gonna safeword them? This is what I meant when I said before that I was afraid that the demon would overcome me if I embraced it. I'm not sure there's a happy medium in there.

Sometimes its hard to resist the flame.

"I keep on dying,
Because I love to live
maya angelou; "the Lesson"

No...not all of the hurt is good....back away from the feel good part and reopen your logical mind... trust me its hard...very, very hard. I love the pain too, i know how lost in it a person can get, (read my location under my av, it says alot) but you have to separate that good feeling.... HAVE TO... even if you dont want to, because no matter how good it feels it is leaving its scars in one way or another and you have to control that if you want to be worth anything to a Dominant one day. If you dont control it you lose yourself piece by piece 'til you lose the submissive inside you.

 

[snowy ciara]

Usually I do a lot better. Life has been interesting lately.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Usually I do a lot better. Life has been interesting lately.

Interesting is what keeps us getting outta the bed every morning.

 

[Caitlynne]

This is such an interesting thread. I can't believe how much I am enjoying this discussion. I had a few more thoughts on this and I was prompted to share.

As for 'getting over a flame', well, I just don't think that is how it works. I believe (for me at least) that it is not about getting over a flame but learning to deal with myself and what I am feeling.

That can only happen over time. Time is the one thing most of us believe is an enemy, but it is really a true friend if we actually do want to learn to cope with our own emotional extremes. Time is there to help us learn, and we learn best (fortunately or unfortunately) through pain--emotional pain in this case. Time is the gift in life that allows for lessons to be learned if we but realize it.

In my opinion, it isn't ever about getting over something, sweeping it to a corner to be done with it. I don't see how that can occur. If it is truly a flame, and we are burned, we are changed. We can never go back to an innocent state, all we can do is move forward with new knowledge *about ourselves*.

In my case, I learned to accept my own passions and to see how I was responsible for their intensity. That they existed inside of me. Sure the flame had brought them out, and in one case he used them quite deliberately without any responsibility for me at all, but ultimately it wasn't about him at all, it was about my emotions. They were so exposed and so raw, I had no choice but to confront myself in them. In short, I had to FEEL them.

I don't think we get to fly so close to that flame without having the emotional need to do just that. It is our need that drives us to the flame, and that reveals something to each of us about ourselves. It is our own passion that drives us, not the flame calling us. (Although I can attest that when a flame CALLS, it is pretty intense)

This conversation seems to be about dealing with being the moth so I won't go into how the flame meets our passion, but I will say this, that these kinds of events in our lives are full of the promise of possible self-revelation. It's one thing to stay in the safe, known emotional arena. But each of us shares one common trait, we all want our limits pushed or we want to push them in others (and that is also pushing a personal limit). We are psychologically built to fly to that flame and push our endurance in order to let that passion live.

I'm not sure it is about the pain at all, we're just willing to suffer the consequences (pain) in order to push that emotional limit within ourselves. I see it as a tradeoff more than loving to inflict pain upon myself. I personally want to dive into my inner most places and let those passions live, give them voice, give them shape and form. I recognize this about myself.

Sometimes a flame was too bright and I was so enthralled that I got burned, and it hurt me when he did not have the desire to have me flying so close. Sometimes the flame was so bright and I was again, so enthralled that I got burned and hurt, but he wanted me to fly close and feel all that that dynamic could bring to us both. Both experiences were invaluable to me for the revelations they brought.

Sometimes I think that passion is nothing more than an intense desire to be all of oneself. ALL of it. The moth to the flame dynamic brings so much of what we are to bear. It pushes us to 'be more', reveal more of who we are, let hidden and buried desires find the light and speak.

I don't think we can ever successfully stop what is in our nature to be. All we can do is learn the lessons that we are driven to learn. The lesson is to become aware of our own nature and our own need to express certain things. AND Time is the teacher of such lessons.

~ Cait

 

[Esclava]

Please read Caitlynne's reply above...

Caitlynne,

You have said several things which speak volumes to some of us. True, one cannot change what is in one's nature to be. Yes, our flames call out to those natures - always pushing us to expose more of who we are. Yes, all of that is true. But...

If that exposure is meant to take us closer to our own real, true selves - to evoke the passion deep within us, wouldn't that make it somehow "wrong" to extinguish the flame? Wouldn't we be quashing our own passion - that thing which drives us to live every moment like tomorrow is not promised?

That is what was meant when I said, "I hope my flame dies the death of a phoenix." I want it to burn as brightly as it possibly can before it crashes and burns to death. It is dealing with it while it is flaming brightly that is the problem for me.

I want my flames extinguished - but I want the depth of passion which accompanies them to remain - so they remind me that I can live AND love - again.


Esclava

 

[shy slave]

Caitlynnes & Esclavas previous post look like two sides of the same coin to me .

I have read and re-read both.

On each reading i find more and end up thinking off tangent from an off tangent.

I am not sure I will ever have a coherant post to follow what both have said, nor can I figure out my where my own thoughts currently lay.

My initial post spoke of a 'flame,' but it does not burn with the intesity that caitlynne and Esclava talk of.

Perhaps because time without contact has passed.

Am I the same person I was?
No, I am more guarded, less willing to be drawn in. Wanting to stay in the safe, known emotional arena (part of caitlynnes post) when dealing with my own raw emotions

I am drawn to my Master, of course I am.

I have little idea how I would be emotionally if He choose to walk away now.

I can only imagine through previous experiences how it will be. Yet I have I lack any previous experience that I could draw on, as I have never been in this type of relationship before with this type of person.

If I dwell on the possibility of being without Him my mind is unwilling to focus on how I will react.
Will I chase Him ~ initially I will without a doubt.
What if I cannot due to His reasons for leaving? It is at this point my mind refuses to deal in the potential loss.

That is where I end up in Esclavas post I want it to burn as brightly as it possibly can before it crashes and burns to death.


If they (a flame) chooses to go or not to induge in being with us from the outset are passions may be in danger of turning inwards and destroying all potential future passions if we do not move emotionally forward.

Yet we cannot be the same person we were previously.

I am bouncing back and forth between both posts seeing angles upon angles, views and counter views.


Caitlynne and Esclava ~

 

[catalina_francisco]

This conversation seems to be about dealing with being the moth so I won't go into how the flame meets our passion, but I will say this, that these kinds of events in our lives are full of the promise of possible self-revelation. It's one thing to stay in the safe, known emotional arena. But each of us shares one common trait, we all want our limits pushed or we want to push them in others (and that is also pushing a personal limit). We are psychologically built to fly to that flame and push our endurance in order to let that passion live.

I'm not sure it is about the pain at all, we're just willing to suffer the consequences (pain) in order to push that emotional limit within ourselves. I see it as a tradeoff more than loving to inflict pain upon myself. I personally want to dive into my inner most places and let those passions live, give them voice, give them shape and form. I recognize this about myself.

Sometimes a flame was too bright and I was so enthralled that I got burned, and it hurt me when he did not have the desire to have me flying so close. Sometimes the flame was so bright and I was again, so enthralled that I got burned and hurt, but he wanted me to fly close and feel all that that dynamic could bring to us both. Both experiences were invaluable to me for the revelations they brought.

Sometimes I think that passion is nothing more than an intense desire to be all of oneself. ALL of it. The moth to the flame dynamic brings so much of what we are to bear. It pushes us to 'be more', reveal more of who we are, let hidden and buried desires find the light and speak.

I don't think we can ever successfully stop what is in our nature to be. All we can do is learn the lessons that we are driven to learn. The lesson is to become aware of our own nature and our own need to express certain things. AND Time is the teacher of such lessons.

~ Cait

Lovely post.....this is mostly what I was speaking of in my earlier post about our relationship......it is not something to try and escape or extinguish, more something to immerse oneself in for all the positives it brings.

Catalina

 

[Caitlynne]

...

If that exposure is meant to take us closer to our own real, true selves - to evoke the passion deep within us, wouldn't that make it somehow "wrong" to extinguish the flame? Wouldn't we be quashing our own passion - that thing which drives us to live every moment like tomorrow is not promised?

Humm, interesting question. My personal belief for *me*, is that there is no wrong regardless of which choice is made. If you extinguish the flame, destroy it, run from it, somehow deny it (and I admit I have no idea how one ignores a true flame if one is in fact the moth), there is still a revelation. The same occurs if one flies into the flame, only it is a different kind of revelation. Perhaps the opposite sides of a coin, but then both sides need to be understood to really bring one's *self* to bear.

I’m not minimizing the suffering, but I’ve learned a lot about myself over time. (Thank goodness) The moth DOES get burned; it is the very nature of the dynamic. I enjoy suffering sweetly for the flame. Somehow burning myself in some show of devotion. So, suffering before, during and afterwards is part of my makeup. But then that was revealed to me by actually suffering, and it wouldn't have been revealed to me if I had run from the flame.

That's not to say that once or twice there was not a truly tragic element to the dynamic for me, there in fact was. I just mean that because of my nature, I embrace the suffering out of some need to hang on to *some sort of passion*. It often comes in the form of passionately suffering. It’s something akin to the passion of the Saints who reportedly suffered for their beliefs.

I’m not saying I’m a saint or a martyr, far from it, but passion by its very nature will suffer. This is why a moth will fly to the flame even knowing it could die. It is driven by its own passionate nature. This was my original point, that we moths are passionate creatures, not victims of the flame. How could we change our nature? Should we try? We (I) only want to learn to live as I truly am and learn to accept my nature—not change it. (Although I’m not suggesting that anyone in this discussion suggested that we moths change our nature. )

I can say this for me personally, that with the level of maturity I have, I’ve learned that I need there to be a ‘call’, to feel a compulsion, etc.. Time has taught me that there are really very few flames that attract me to the degree we are discussing. I talk about my passions, but in truth they are not so close to the surface that they are ignited that easily. This may be the reason I am so enthralled by a flame when my desire is enflamed (humm, something to think about.).

However, when I do find a flame calling to me, I do not hesitate to fly towards it. I let the flame pull me in; I let myself be submerged in my passion and my suffering for the flame. These are moments of wholeness for me. These are moments of bliss and ecstasy and like you Escava I would not want them to destroy me completely. I want them to transform me, inform me, and if necessary I’d die in the ashes only to be reborn as the phoenix.

It is not easy and it requires a particular mind-set in order to not be destructive. There is a difference between dying in the ashes to be reborn and being destroyed never to function again. This is the essence of the danger in the 'moth to the flame' dynamic.

I've been lucky in the choices I’ve made since I 'grew up'. The flame was hard to live in and hard to recover from, but I was reborn through the process. And in looking back, I would do it again even knowing the pain, because I know the result to my 'being'. I grew and I learned, and that is my true passion in life. This is the passion that lives in the deepest part of me, the desire and the hunger to know who I am, to live life in such a manner that it reveals to me who I am... on deeper and deeper levels.

I'm rambling I can see that, but ultimately I think that no choice is wrong. That each choice is the one we make at the time, and it is the right one in that moment. Even if one chooses to never leave one's home because of the fear of getting too close to a flame, that reveals something. It reveals a level of fear that is consuming and that is something that a person can take and grow from if the make the choice to learn 'who they are'.

I suppose there is no pat answer for any of us, we only make our choices and we live with the consequences. Sometimes we can’t immediately know the value of the consequences. Sometimes, like history itself, we can't judge the value of an experience at the time it is occurring. It can only be 'felt' at the time it occurs, and then pondered and understood after time has passed. I'm not sure we can do anything about this, nor if we should even try.

For myself, I have experienced being drawn to the flame so intensely that I felt compelled. One time, I flew into that flame and I was not burned, but consumed. I learned to live in my passion for long periods of time and I found myself there--my complete self. I suffered sweetly, I still do, but NOTHING could convince me to fly away from that flame. It was, and still is beyond fear, beyond passion, and beyond explanation--it simply is what it is, and I find/found my total being in that flame. I would never even try to extinguish it.

I suppose that is the right answer for me, but each of us has to make that choice based on who we are in a moment of 'choice'. I wish it weren’t so, I wish there was a better answer, but I don’t think there is. I think if we are drawn, it is a reflection of our nature—and we should be who we are. Inherent in that, is that we accept the consequences of our own passions—we will suffer. All passionate creatures suffer.

~ Cait

 

[Esclava]

Yes, sweet Caitlynne, we do!

Esclava

 

[Esclava]

It is important to me that you understand what you are about to read.

There are always two sides to every thing. When you only hear one side of something, can you really be sure that any action you take is right or fair regarding the half you haven't heard? As human beings, we will always read what we suspect is truth into someone else’s words (and more often than not, the worst possible suspicion).

I want you to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that I started this thread to exorcise a personal demon and extinguish a flame. I have been helped by all of the replies and I can see that others have been helped as well. Some of the replies will be printed and placed in something I call my "Journal of Wise Advice".

As difficult as it was to read, I had no idea that so many of you were battling similar demons; and still others, who had walked in those shoes before, came with relevant advice to offer. Thank you all for your caring concern and willingness to put your self out on that edge to help us find our way back. With that said, please know that my demon is not exorcised, but my flame is extinguished.

And THAT is the essence of the true "lesson learned".


...slipping quietly from the boards...

 

[dalila]

It is not easy and it requires a particular mind-set in order to not be destructive. There is a difference between dying in the ashes to be reborn and being destroyed never to function again. This is the essence of the danger in the 'moth to the flame' dynamic.

This is my first posting here so please be gentle (or not) with me.

I am currently trying to get over my "flame" and all of your post have helped me soo very much. I am hoping for myself, and others, to be reborn in the ashes (I perticurly like this quote as it gives a certen growth feeling to the sittuation) I had learned a lot from my flame no matter how short it was.

Someday I hope to find someone eles that I can do those things with but in the meentime I know what I learned will help with my future relationships and what I am looking for in a sex partner. He helped me relize what I had been missing (even tho I didn't know)

My only regret is that it didn't last longer so I could learn more about myself.



sorry if this message is a little scattered and not as eloqent as the others it is very early here and my mind has yet to wrap itself in coffee goodness.

 

[TigerClaw]

You dont even want me to go there.

 

[Esclava]

You dont even want me to go there.

Go where, TC?

Esclava

 

[Esclava]

WHY...

is smothering a flame so difficult? As Caitlynne said, flames are loaded with opportunities for self-revelation. What do you do when you have learned so much from a flame and then the time comes to extinguish it?

Does anyone have ideas on how to deal with saying thank you and good-bye to a flame so the good that was accomplished remains? My flame was part of the reason I found my 10 keys and I WANT to keep the goodness from that discovery. Unfortunately, because of a misunderstanding, my flame has been extinguished before realizing our interaction was complete. Flames CAN help us find our way back to wholeness and that is one of the best things I take away from knowing my flame.

Yes, I flew close – actually only once. But that one time told me I did NOT want to fly into the flame. What is strange – I didn’t get burned until I tried to say good-bye. All of the good things I had to smile about are now tarnished because of the misunderstanding. Is there any way to fix it? Or is it best to just accept that it can never be fixed and do the best I can to hold on what was good - knowing that the one who was a huge factor in my return to wholeness will forever be misinformed?

Esclava

 

[Xelebes]

Yep. Threads about music do that to me.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Alrighty ...

Since this conversation seems destined to get played out publicly, i don't have a clue to what you refer here:

Yes, I flew close – actually only once. But that one time told me I did NOT want to fly into the flame.

Anyone can glean information about me from what i post in banter, or serious threads regardless. If my posts assist someone in whatever way, well hell, that pretty much justifies the reason for this board and the sharing of ideas & personal experiences.

i don't mind the occasional flirt. i post to what boils down to a forum about sex. Expecting anyone not to get flirtatious on a board like this smacks of stupidity, or naiveté. i understand people wish to go beyond what they might normally do face to face. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the anonymity offered in this venue allows most of us to stretch, and i find no fault in that.

If, however,

• i have a question on a serious topic where i lack personal knowledge,
• someone with personal knowledge posts in the blast radius of my question,
• and my question will require that someone to reveal personal information they haven't to answer,

i go to them privately. i normally caveat my question with "i'm about to ask you something personal. If i overstep the bounds of good taste, feel free to tell me so. If you'd rather decline an answer for any reason, i recognize i may have put you in an uncomfortable position." No one feels obligated to answer. No one gets their feelings hurt. The whole process retains objectivity.

Had you started this thread sans the name of your flame, i believe everyone that replied still would have posted.

You didn't me to validate a good question.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think also a point to be remembered when talking about flames, getting burned, misunderstood, and the frustration of not being one with that flame is whether firstly the flame wants any part of the interaction, or if all perceived events are only in the wishful thinking of the moth. It is easy to become enamoured with another, to want to believe they feel a connection as well, but reality is important to deal with before declaring the flame has caused some slight in some manner, especially when we are talking about a D/s environment.

Isn't it the right of the Dominant to demonstrate his/her returned interest or not, and not the place of the moth to feel they have the power to direct and/or control that attraction and perceived relationship? Infatuation and/or admiration can be powerful emotions, real ones which can consume us to distraction, but unless the object of our desire is interested they really have no power over how the moth contextualises and processes the outcomes. As has so often been said throughout time, you can't make another love or desire you if they don't...all you can do is gracefully accept their choice and be thankful you at least had the opportunity to know them in whatever form.

Catalina

 

[Esclava]

I concede only this...

<snip>Had you started this thread sans the name of your flame, i believe everyone that replied still would have posted.

You didn't me to validate a good question.

...and understand what has been said in both posts, but only one offers an answer to either of the questions asked in my most recent post.

Admiration IS a strong emotion - especially if it is of a mind that can push you to think outside the bounds of where you were previously. And it can be twisted to seem as though it is - something else - but it never was, never could be and never will be. Assuming that the admiration IS - something else - is what causes the damage.

Esclava

 

[Kajira Callista]

Re: WHY...

is smothering a flame so difficult? As Caitlynne said, flames are loaded with opportunities for self-revelation. What do you do when you have learned so much from a flame and then the time comes to extinguish it?

Does anyone have ideas on how to deal with saying thank you and good-bye to a flame so the good that was accomplished remains? My flame was part of the reason I found my 10 keys and I WANT to keep the goodness from that discovery.

Esclava

I posted this earilier and it got overlooked so i will post it again.

I dont know about anyone else, but i dont see anything wrong with keeping the flame instead if extinguishing it, and learning not to be the moth.
and...

By remembering what happens every time you get too close to that flame.
and...

No...not all of the hurt is good....back away from the feel good part and reopen your logical mind... trust me its hard...very, very hard. I love the pain too, i know how lost in it a person can get, (read my location under my av, it says alot) but you have to separate that good feeling.... HAVE TO... even if you dont want to, because no matter how good it feels it is leaving its scars in one way or another and you have to control that if you want to be worth anything to a Dominant one day. If you dont control it you lose yourself piece by piece 'til you lose the submissive inside you.

 

[Caitlynne]

Re: Re: WHY...

I'm confused now, I was assuming that the discussion was about the moth to flame dynamic, or in other words, that the flame was 'in it' too. If I misunderstood the original premise I apologize. All my comments were concerning a mutual 'moth to flame' interaction.

My comments about AA were a 'nod' to acknowledge Escava's comments. I find him to be extremely provocative, but all in the most positive of ways from my POV. I personally have had only the one incident with him that I shared, and was not claiming to be a moth to his flame. I had no intent to walk into the middle of something, and hope that I didn't offend anyone with my comments.

Lastly, the comments about the phenomena, I would have made anyway, as they reflect my experience in life.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see anything wrong with keeping the flame instead if extinguishing it, and learning not to be the moth.
and...

I don't see anything wrong with it either. But I don't think one learns NOT to be the moth, if that is what one is. I think the self-awareness that comes through such experiences teaches us to handle being the moth more effectively.

That can occur in just the ways you suggest, but I'm not sure whether or not that is learning *not* to be the moth or learning to choose carefully *when* to be that moth.

The wonderful thing about self-revelation is, that it is different for all of us exactly because it *is* self-revelation. What learning to deal with it might mean to me would be different to you. BUT, it would still be learning, growth and eventual awareness of one's own nature. That knowledge leads us all to a better ability to handle who and what we are.

This was my point, that there is no need to suffer without hope of growth and eventual awareness of our own nature. That is the whole point in my opinion--to learn. One of the things to learn is that passion drives us to the flame. That passion comes from within and is ours to learn from and use for our own evolution. It is NOT the flame that is responsible for our condition.

Or at least this is what I learned about myself through my experience. My own passions drive me, and my duty was to learn how those passions created the conditions I found myself in. I've never learned to NOT fly into that flame when it called to me, but I have also learned to choose wisely.

Ultimately we all must be true to who we really are and to accept that truth--our own truth. We must be responsible for our own actions and seek to understand why we act the way we act if at all possible. I'm not sure we can ever learn to be something we are not. We can only learn to be better at what we *are*.

That rambled a bit, I hope it was clear...

~ Cait

 

[FungiUg]

Isn't it the right of the Dominant to demonstrate his/her returned interest or not, and not the place of the moth to feel they have the power to direct and/or control that attraction and perceived relationship?

Hmmm... it seems to me that every interaction is different depending on the people involved. I don't know about these "rights" for Dominants versus submissives at all -- I would say it's up to the individuals to decide how the dynamic works.

Or did we pass a D/s constitution when I wasn't looking?

 

[FungiUg]

Re: Re: WHY...

I dont know about anyone else, but i dont see anything wrong with keeping the flame instead if extinguishing it, and learning not to be the moth.

It depends on how you manage "keeping the flame".

I know for some people, continual longing for someone you cannot have can lead to extreme depression and extended grief. Okay, for a masochist that might be a good thing, but I suspect not.

It's not about the metaphor of moth and flame -- it's about the reality of having your heart and desires constanty torn in two and aching.

Unless you are recommending that people turn into stalkers, the best advice I have still found is to move on. However difficult that may be.

 

[Caitlynne]

Oh, now I see where my confusion is. I think some are talking about an 'unrequitted' kind of attraction, while others of us are talking about the kind of attractions that are magnetic and consuming but mutual.

Both have problems inherent in them, but I was responding to the kind of relationship that is mutual. The moth the submisisve, and the flame the Dominant who is in control and can do the burning.

~ Cait

 

[FungiUg]

Mutual "magnetic" attraction is a whole different thing, admittedly. There you have the issue of passion, which doesn't always transmute into love and caring and a successful relationship. But hey, nor do caring relationships necessarily translate into passionate ones, and without passion, wouldn't life be flat? (That's not to imply that large breasted women are more passionate though. )

No, from Esclava's initial post, the discussion was very much on the unrequited passion.

 

[A Desert Rose]

There are some people who post here who want or demand a certain amount of privacy. They deserve that.

As someone else posted earlier, this is a porn board and a certain amount of flirting and teasing is expected. But lines can be and are crossed, on occassion.

My own personal (off the boards) interactions with a poster, whether they are romantically inclined or not, is never posted about. That is not only a violation of my privacy but more importantly, a violation of the privacy and trust of the other.

It's something I just don't do.


And on topic... I am the flame, not the moth....
AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!