My philosophy is feminist, -- my pussy just wants to be pounded

[eastern sun]

I think it's a chicken and egg thing. Race plus money, money plus gender, religion, ghawd helpus, and money.

But when police raid a wealthy and influential black professor's home because they saw him opining his own door with melanin? i think we can tell what really trumps.

In this case, the police will still be held accountable for their mistake, and have to face the public with egg on their face . . . (or have I lived in NYC too long?)

Racial profiling is rampant in the police force. And institutionalized racism has driven the expansion of the criminal justice system for decades. I would still argue that class plays a bigger role than race in any given instance. In spite of the American myth, class changes actually take generations to take effect.

And how much do you know about it-- yourself, I mean. I freely admit I know very little, because it really isn't the world I live in. But you were the one who specified Western Feminism as being ineffective.

I don't know much about Eastern Feminism, either. It's why I chose to write "Western feminism," because I know more about it and what I perceive its effects on the culture to be.

And I didn't claim it was ineffective. Just that it had not made cultural mysogyny in America less severe. Though, it may help the cause to provide a focussed target for some of that mysogyny.

Here's a non-sequiter that somehow seems related to me. . . .

I have mixed feelings about the rise of amateur porn. I think it would very hard to grow up these days with the expectation that - as an average girl - you have to have the skills and attitude of a porn star. I always thought my ability to be a porn star in the bedroom gave me a chance to surprise and delight my sexual partners. Now, if that's become a fundamental expectation, what does a girl have to do?

Actually... we had no idea the backlash would be this violent. yeah, we were pretty damn naive. But who ever predicted the rise of Hannity, Limbaugh, et al?

Never in my life did I ever expect that Americans would be proud of their hatreds, and make a virtue out of ignorance. I never did.

It has taken me by surprise too. And I also find it profoundly upsetting - another indication that human civilization isn't moving in a linear progression towards enlightenment.

 

[Netzach]

I think this is a valid statement.

But the addition of those children to the statistics is extremely important. They are not exclusively female.

No, but as mothers fare so minor boys fare, basically. Male role model handwringing aside, subsistence issues are tied to mom.

 

[Netzach]

so people should eschew social justice until you deem that government-type justice has been achieved? How will you achive judicial equality if young people continue to grow up in a society where minorities are so violently marginalised-- since they grow up to be the next policy makers?

Michigan is mainstream. It's not radical. Radical is the idea that trans women are entitled to womanhood.

Not eschew. Prioritize. Select battles. If you're a Trans musician, then you have a REAL dog in that hunt and more power to you. I don't get it. Gay bathhouses are just as transphobic, but the solution is to have sex parties that suck less on your own. Let these people go up their own ass with the "should we allow male children" insanity. I'm much more worried about whether the bathroom at a roadside stopover is inclusive enough space that no one gets beaten up, than I am worried about whether separatist lesbians want to include us, call me naive. I don't think that there's as much to be gained by convincing a Mary Daly devotee that a mere biological penis is not the patriarchy incarnate. They're not listening. They're allowed to be as nutball as an Alex Jones listener, avoid.

I honestly believe that there are much more important things to worry about, and I can never believe when people resume the intersectivity of all things on the planet argument about things like Michigan when there are things like transwomen being murdered on the steps practically of a DC trans-friendly organization to deal with.

Feminists capital F movement Feminists argue that there's energy enough for every issue under the sun. I look around at a lot of failures, failures because consensus could not be built, failures because not enough people with money gave a shit, and I question this. A lot. As an individual, I am handed out limited "energy tokens" to deal with the world, and we're all made up of individuals.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Hi Stella,

Thanks for creating this thread!

My own involvement with feminism goes back to the emergence of Second Wave Feminism in the late 1960s. First Wave Feminism (if you're wondering) goes back to the suffragettes and anarchist women like Emma Goldman. Read Emma Goldman's "Living My Life"!

My first wife and I were both at university in those days and she was a very active feminist (as well as a submissive). I remember the consciousness raising sessions she used to organise with everyone sitting in a circle on the floor in our lounge.

Everyone didn't include me.

As a man I was excluded, and I remember feeling disappointed because I would have liked to take part in some of the interesting discussions I could overhear from the next room.

But anyway, regarding the feminism thing... back in the day there were all kinds of splinter groups such as the radical lesbians.

I later had a sub who'd spent several years with radical lesbian groups and from what she told me these rad lesbians treated their submissive women really badly.

I was quite surprised to learn this... it was a real eye opener to find that radical lesbians would not just be dominating (as expected) but actually quite nasty and brutal...

Worse than most men!

Stereotypical bullshit. You meet one woman, who by the way isn't a lesbian, lesbians don't do dicks or dickheads.

I'm a radical lesbian, personally I don't know any other kind.

Since I'm a lesbian, surely I never shave my legs, I wear men's clothes, I cut my hair boy styles, I always wear a harness with dildo attached because I wish I had a cock, I'm fat too and my wife brutalizes me every day.

By the way I'm not only a radical lesbian, I'm a radical feminist lesbian.

You wonder why you weren't included in a discussion with a group of feminist? Your ex-wife was protecting you and your stupidly from being brutalized.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stereotypical bullshit. You meet one woman, who by the way isn't a lesbian, lesbians don't do dicks or dickheads.

I'm a radical lesbian, personally I don't know any other kind.

Since I'm a lesbian, surely I never shave my legs, I wear men's clothes, I cut my hair boy styles, I always wear a harness with dildo attached because I wish I had a cock, I'm fat too and my wife brutalizes me every day.

By the way I'm not only a radical lesbian, I'm a radical feminist lesbian.

You wonder why you weren't included in a discussion with a group of feminist? Your ex-wife was protecting you and your stupidly from being brutalized.

You have some terrible debating habits, my darling-- like, reacting to trolls by saying exactly what they might hope you would say, as opposed to what they hope you wouldn't say.

 

[visviva2]

NOT trolling!

Ahem, I'm not a troll!

I simply made an observation about the conduct of a certain group someone I knew quite well talked to me about at considerable length (based on her extensive experience). It was not a throwaway line or an ignorant comment - whether you agree or not.

Stella correctly pointed out that not all radical lesbians or "radical feminist lesbians" are the same, and that in fact there are myriad such groups with a wide range of attitudes.

I don't doubt this at all, and I should have qualified my previous comments accordingly. Sorry I didn't make this crystal clear in order to avoid being misunderstood.

Actually, I was referring to a specific group that my sub friend had been involved with... It was not my intention to offend anyone or provoke any specific type of response.

I have many lesbian friends, and I know very well that one self-described "radical" group does not represent anyone except themselves. I'm certainly not attributing the attitudes of one extremist group to any other wider group at all.

However, the response I got from Dyslexicea for even daring to comment on this issue reminds me of the aggressive and intolerant responses I often received when I tried to debate with SOME people who described themselves as "radical feminist lesbians" back in the 1970s...

I really don't know why Stella referred to me as a "troll" as I'm not out provoke any particular kind of response. If anyone wants to make a worthwhile comment on my posts they're welcome to do so either by agreeing or disagreeing.

I don't see anything "troll-like" in simply joining in the normal discussions on the board, or in creating a thread in which people can discuss a topic (or not) as they choose.

I would have thought this was what the Lit discussion boards are for.

Anyway, the response to my post by Dyslexicea clearly demonstrate that the brutish behaviour by SOME radical lesbians I mentioned is not an unjustified observation... Thanks for proving my point Dyslexicea!

But let make it clear that I am NOT saying that all radical lesbians are like this. Obviously most groups of any kind include a wide spectrum of attitudes, and I know that people like this are very much a minority.

I don't have any respect for people who set out to provoke a response with personal attacks. When someone deliberately tries to insult you by using words like "stereotypical bullshit", "dickhead" and "stupidity" they are only demonstrating that they lack the ability to conduct a rational debate...

This type of response totally fails. I'm certainly not intimidated by anyone who can't even think rationally. If you can't act with basic courtesy, why should I give a fuck what you think?

Stella already responded to my earlier post, and even though in some ways she misrepresented what I was saying, I didn't respond because I don't think she was being deliberately unfair or nasty.

I'm only responding now because I wanted to set the record straight. Having done so, I'm not going to make any further reply to what Dyslexicea said --- even if she makes further attempts to provoke me.

When SOME people respond to any critical comment by hurling abuse this clearly demonstrates that their views are worth taking seriously.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Umm... Okay. I'm glad that you came back to show that you understand what your problem is.

However, you really DID sound like you were attacking each and every leatherwoman -- even though you say that wasn't your intention, it seemed like a little passive agressive dig to me. I kind of had to work a little bit extra hard to come up with a response that was halfway civil, and the only reason I tried was to prove to myself that I could.

As far as I'm concerned, your comments about Dyslexica are null and void and you don't get no cookie, sorry. Some women have personal and immediate reasons for hating male guts, and who are you to tell them how to frame their anger-- especially after you've painted such a clear target? Next time try harder not to be a trigger, okay?

 

[visviva2]

Umm... Okay. I'm glad that you came back to show that you understand what your problem is.

However, you really DID sound like you were attacking each and every leatherwoman -- even though you say that wasn't your intention, it seemed like a little passive agressive dig to me. I kind of had to work a little bit extra hard to come up with a response that was halfway civil, and the only reason I tried was to prove to myself that I could.

As far as I'm concerned, your comments about Dyslexica are null and void and you don't get no cookie, sorry. Some women have personal and immediate reasons for hating male guts, and who are you to tell them how to frame their anger-- especially after you've painted such a clear target? Next time try harder not to be a trigger, okay?

I did not come back to show that I understand what my problem is. I don't have a problem...

I just felt that it would be appropriate to respond to some clearly angry and abusive comments that had been directed at me... and to try and clarify what I had said previously.

What I did say that it was unfortunate I didn't make it specifically crystal clear that I was not attacking every leatherwoman. But in fact it should already have been quite clear that I was doing no such thing.

I was talking about ONE specific group of "radical lesbians". This is not the same thing as saying ALL radical lesbians (or whoever) are like this.

Perhaps I didn't fully comprehend the sensitivities involved, but I'm (relatively) new around here. I'm still learning what it's like to post regularly on Lit as over the past several years I have posted maybe once or twice a year at most.

It really is a very different experience dealing with what seems to be an extremely oversensitive bunch of people... Wait a minute. I'll rephrase that --- otherwise I'll be accused of attacking every Lit poster. What I mean is that SOME people on Lit seem to me to be oversensitive.

Just my opinion.

Obviously not everyone will agree. and why should they?

I certainly don't think that everything I say is a universal truth. It's just an opinion...

Stella, please believe me when I say I'm not the passive aggressive type. I'm very typically Australian -- and we are famous for being very direct. I'm also a dom and my approach is to put it out there and deal with any questions, objections, concerns, etc. by discussion in which all points of view are heard.

I say what I think. I do NOT make passive aggressive digs about anything or anyone.

Let me add that I appreciated that you were trying to respond as positively as you could, even though you were obviously unhappy that I had said something negative about a group you identify with. I've admired your posts for several years. Not necessarily agreed with all of them, but I think you have a good heart.

Please do not jump to conclusions about me based on a few words here and there. I think simple logic should have shown you that I was not talking about *your* group of radical lesbians because (as you said) they are very nice sensitive people. I'm quite sure that's true.

Since the group I was talking about were NOT nice sensitive people they were obviously NOT the same group at all. By definition your group was excluded. Therefore I was not attacking EVERY leatherwoman. Simple and unambiguous (I thought).

Apparently not. Even if I could have made it even clearer, I don't believe it's fair to claim I was having a passive agressive dig or any other kind of dig at EVERY leatherwoman. I'm really surprised that any comment that mentions one small part of any group is taken to be a comment on the WHOLE group.

As far as the man hater's go... Well, I don't agree it's ok for them to vent their anger in an aggressive and abusive way. To anyone or for any reason. This conduct is simply not acceptable IMO. And I don't have to put up with it.

I think it's also stretching things to say that if I object to being called a "dickhead", etc. that I'm telling anyone what to do or what not to do. I am saying that I won't accept it.

That would my response to any similar attack by anyone. Whether they were radical lesbians, religious fundamentalists, or a group of nuns doesn't matter. It is not about the group. It's about the way they choose to conduct themselves.

I'm not attacking anyone by saying I don't like to be abused. It's just MY opinion. It's also just water off a duck's back. I'm not really that bothered about what they think about me or anything else.

Of course they may well not care about my opinion, any more than I care about theirs. That's ok.

But I don't see why I should accept that someone has the right to abuse me just because I'm male or because I express an opinion they don't like -- Anymore than anyone has the right to abuse a woman just because she's female or expresses an opinion, etc.

As far as being a target goes. I'm not really minded to keep a low profile and watch what I say in case someone might not like it. That doesn't mean that I want to offend anyone. I would never go out of my way to do that. And as I said previously, that was not my intention.

Notice I'm not calling anyone names. I'm not saying that all or part of any group should not be allowed to do whatever (as long as it doesn't negatively impact others). I'm not saying no has the right to say anything I don't like.

I'm just saying abuse should be OUT on the Lit discussion board.

Why is this not perfectly understandable and acceptable?

It's very difficult to say what you mean and never offend anyone... Especially someone who is going to see you as a target almost regardless of what you say or actually mean.

Sigh... It's been my first week posting regularly on Lit.

Not that much really, but a lot more than I ever have before.

So far my first thread was somewhat derailed by Stella who started a debate about feminism and masochism which was tangential to my topic. But she did take it here (and some of those who would have otherwise contributed to my thread went with her).

Then someone else started another thread on the emotional aspects of bdsm -- which is really what I was trying to get a discussion going about. A lot of potential posters to my thread went there instead.

Now I'm being accused of being a passive agressive troll (among other things)... and told I should be careful what I say, or even dare to mention, in case someone gets angry...

There has not been one word of welcome or support.

So much for the make-the-world-a-better-place humanism that was being talked about so much earlier in this thread.

Is this really what the Lit community is like?

It (I mean SOME people) seem very ready to label someone a troll if they dislike what someone says.

It's rather like calling someone a witch. They can then be safely attacked and no one will dare lift a finger to intervene or they'll also be labelled a witch as well.

I'm waiting for the mass hysteria to start building...

Let the burning begin!

 

[Keroin]

feminism won..it's over.

Not sure whether to laugh or cry. Not sure where to start, either.

There's this, of course. You may not want my anecdotal evidence but perhaps from thousands of other women it might make you take notice?

And not long ago I wrote this because I, too, had the same delusion that maybe we didn't need feminism any more.

 

[Netzach]

Anyone who uses a phrase like "how radical lesbians treat their submissive women" and then goes on to insist they mean individuals and aren't talking about a group as a whole is either pulling your leg or thinks you're too stupid to notice.

Also, exactly what did these "extremists" (his word) do? Hurt some people's feelings? Made a straight girl cry? That definitely deserves massive social shaming and worry versus you know, blowing up a few buildings in the name of fetuses or a million plus rapes or something. Aw.

Yeah, I wasn't there in the late 70's and 80's but almost all the feminism at my school was taught by the people who were, so the climate was VERY second wave still. I didn't fit in. I needed a waaaaahmbulence badly, BADLY - then the one prof who was on the wrong side of the porn wars handed me a copy of "Leatherfolk" and I felt better. No one died either way. This was hardly what represented more than a bit of 22 year old angst in my life. I now realize that while I was going to be scarlet lettered by a lot of these people (many of whom de-radicalized years later married men and had babies, whereas I - sorta didn't) as much as we didn't have in common we still have common *interests*. Whether we like one another or not. Whether I'm welcome to the soirees or not. Whether they're welcome at my soirees or not.

I'm not ready to throw them under the bus when BDSM people want to blame all censorship there and all things bad. I'm not going to throw them under the bus because they made submissive femmes feel challenged and uncomfortable about being submissive femmes. I should make a T shirt - I survived Mom's disapproval and so can you!

Since when does the world owe everyone unquestioning validation, since when does the struggle to claim your real self come with NO cost? Only the most privileged of people are floored when they're not handed a blue ribbon for their me-ness.

If you need validation and mirroring of pretty hetero female submissiveness, it's everywhere you turn. EVERYWHERE. Just because you don't see a collar on her neck doesn't mean it's not validated. Like objectification from a man? You can pretty much go outside and breathe. If you think the presence of a cartoon dominatrix in an ad means that somehow female dominance is being validated, here's more kool aid. Now, if your stance is "this validation sucks" or "I don't feel at home in either of these worlds and here's why" that's a valid critique. I've only seen smart femsubs go after the feminist side of the equation, usually - it's starts "I'm a feminist but..." and then shows nothing but feminist critique of feminism. Not feminist critique of you know - the mountains of bullshit. Never ever anything that implicates Master who is always Master MyNigel.

If you as a cisdude have a problem with ONE radfem or something maybe you just need to learn to take a deep breath and get on with your life and miss a meeting and accept that people might want to do something without you, and start your own damn rock band and it's gonna be the best band ever, you'll see!

Trust me, I learned to do this myself, you're not missing anything you'll regret and you could maybe spend that energy on something that needs your attention, buy a woman across the world a goat if you want to help.

 

[KoPilot]

Someone started a GSM thread on our forums (on the general board) and there were more people whining there about the OP being divisive and exclusionary and being bad for the community than there were GSM people posting.

It's a macabre fascination of mine to watch privileged people flip the fuck out whenever they discover that they can't waltz into every space that ever existed, or say something and have it be relevant to everyone. They literally cannot comprehend the idea that something on this earth isn't for them. (Afterwards I get grossly depressed.)

--

Slightly related: I was "friends" with someone on tumblr for several months once. They were the social justice warrior type, raging against cartoons and the like with more zeal than I'd ever have the energy or patience for. They were constantly telling me that they had a great deal of respect for me and my opinions. Then came the day that we publicly disagreed on something, and poof, they broke all contact with me, saying how disappointed they were (even though we actually came to a reasonable understanding in the end).

And it got me thinking how meaningless "I have a lot of respect for your opinions" is when that only counts for the times that they agree with you.

 

[Dyslexicea]

You have some terrible debating habits, my darling-- like, reacting to trolls by saying exactly what they might hope you would say, as opposed to what they hope you wouldn't say.

Let me point out Stella that I was not looking for a debate and yes sometimes I attack when I shouldn't, this was not one of those times.

My post was in response to visviva2 post, which was offensive. Not only was it offensive, it had nothing to do with feminism. Basically it was a post all about him until he brought up lesbians, which in the context he used had nothing to do with feminism, although he said, I quote "regarding the feminism thing", even that statement is, at least to me, somewhat offensive.

Regarding the woman who told him all about this, again I quote "radical lesbian group" I merely pointed out that she wasn't a lesbian, lesbians don't do dicks. My statement that "lesbians don't do dicks" is not uncommon in one form or another among those of us who happen to be lesbian. I admit I did add dickheads but if that is the worst thing this poor defenseless little man has ever been called he's a very lucky man. I assure him and all of you I've been called much worse just because my relationship/sexual preference does not include men, by not only men but women also.

The truth is it's not uncommon to hear statements like this, I quote " dominating (as expected) but actually quite nasty and brutal... Worse than most men!", from men who happen to be homophobic. It's also not uncommon when you call a man on similar statements that they all contend, I quote, " I have many lesbian friends". From reading his first post along with his next two, in my humble opinion, I seriously doubt he has any lesbian friends.

Stella I know you already know this but to set the record straight for everyone else, I am not a man hating lesbian, although there are times I wonder why.

I do not regret what I did post, my only regret is that I made any post at all because it has moved this thread from its intended purpose.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

http://www.comedycentral.com/video-...umer-uncensored---gang-bang?xrs=share_twitter

Feminist Amy, in an attempt to prove that women aren't objects, wants to get gang banged by a bunch of guys.

 

[LazyAssReader]

Let me point out Stella that I was not looking for a debate and yes sometimes I attack when I shouldn't, this was not one of those times.

My post was in response to visviva2 post, which was offensive. Not only was it offensive, it had nothing to do with feminism. Basically it was a post all about him until he brought up lesbians, which in the context he used had nothing to do with feminism, although he said, I quote "regarding the feminism thing", even that statement is, at least to me, somewhat offensive.

Regarding the woman who told him all about this, again I quote "radical lesbian group" I merely pointed out that she wasn't a lesbian, lesbians don't do dicks. My statement that "lesbians don't do dicks" is not uncommon in one form or another among those of us who happen to be lesbian. I admit I did add dickheads but if that is the worst thing this poor defenseless little man has ever been called he's a very lucky man. I assure him and all of you I've been called much worse just because my relationship/sexual preference does not include men, by not only men but women also.

The truth is it's not uncommon to hear statements like this, I quote " dominating (as expected) but actually quite nasty and brutal... Worse than most men!", from men who happen to be homophobic. It's also not uncommon when you call a man on similar statements that they all contend, I quote, " I have many lesbian friends". From reading his first post along with his next two, in my humble opinion, I seriously doubt he has any lesbian friends.

Stella I know you already know this but to set the record straight for everyone else, I am not a man hating lesbian, although there are times I wonder why.

I do not regret what I did post, my only regret is that I made any post at all because it has moved this thread from its intended purpose.

WHAT THE FUCK

How did you get all that from his post. He said he had a sub who spent time with radical lesbian s,and SHE TOLD HIM. How does that lead to homophobic?

Did you really read his post and if you did that's what you got from it. Really!

Hi Stella,

Thanks for creating this thread!

My own involvement with feminism goes back to the emergence of Second Wave Feminism in the late 1960s. First Wave Feminism (if you're wondering) goes back to the suffragettes and anarchist women like Emma Goldman. Read Emma Goldman's "Living My Life"!

My first wife and I were both at university in those days and she was a very active feminist (as well as a submissive). I remember the consciousness raising sessions she used to organise with everyone sitting in a circle on the floor in our lounge.

Everyone didn't include me.

As a man I was excluded, and I remember feeling disappointed because I would have liked to take part in some of the interesting discussions I could overhear from the next room.

But anyway, regarding the feminism thing... back in the day there were all kinds of splinter groups such as the radical lesbians.

I later had a sub who'd spent several years with radical lesbian groups and from what she told me these rad lesbians treated their submissive women really badly.

I was quite surprised to learn this... it was a real eye opener to find that radical lesbians would not just be dominating (as expected) but actually quite nasty and brutal...

Worse than most men!

Oh, and by the way they're tons of threads on LGBT forums going years back with Bi women complaining about some lesbians being worse than men. I wonder what you would call those women.

Can't believe I read you are a lawyer/

 

[Stella_Omega]

Let me point out Stella that I was not looking for a debate and yes sometimes I attack when I shouldn't, this was not one of those times.

My post was in response to visviva2 post, which was offensive. Not only was it offensive, it had nothing to do with feminism. Basically it was a post all about him until he brought up lesbians, which in the context he used had nothing to do with feminism, although he said, I quote "regarding the feminism thing", even that statement is, at least to me, somewhat offensive.

Regarding the woman who told him all about this, again I quote "radical lesbian group" I merely pointed out that she wasn't a lesbian, lesbians don't do dicks. My statement that "lesbians don't do dicks" is not uncommon in one form or another among those of us who happen to be lesbian. I admit I did add dickheads but if that is the worst thing this poor defenseless little man has ever been called he's a very lucky man. I assure him and all of you I've been called much worse just because my relationship/sexual preference does not include men, by not only men but women also.

The truth is it's not uncommon to hear statements like this, I quote " dominating (as expected) but actually quite nasty and brutal... Worse than most men!", from men who happen to be homophobic. It's also not uncommon when you call a man on similar statements that they all contend, I quote, " I have many lesbian friends". From reading his first post along with his next two, in my humble opinion, I seriously doubt he has any lesbian friends.

Stella I know you already know this but to set the record straight for everyone else, I am not a man hating lesbian, although there are times I wonder why.

I do not regret what I did post, my only regret is that I made any post at all because it has moved this thread from its intended purpose.

I totally agree with everything you've said here, only that you could have just pointed out that what he was saying had nothing to do with feminism, and was a godawful stretch of logic. All the rest of it was troll fodder, inviting him to be butthurt and talk about himself... I say this as someone who has fallen into that trap many times, and for some strange reason am avoiding that trap at the moment-- not because I am smarter than you in any way

 

[Dyslexicea]

I totally agree with everything you've said here, only that you could have just pointed out that what he was saying had nothing to do with feminism, and was a godawful stretch of logic. All the rest of it was troll fodder, inviting him to be butthurt and talk about himself... I say this as someone who has fallen into that trap many times, and for some strange reason am avoiding that trap at the moment-- not because I am smarter than you in any way

I do see your point. And now my last post has become troll fodder for an even bigger troll.

Perhaps you just need to remind me from time to time.

 

[Allyourbase]

Ah, feminism, the f-word - always good for some toe curling stuff... I mean, I can get that visviva2's generalisation about leatherwomen is triggering, but the real gem is this post by query, of course. Isn't it? "Can't we just all get along????" Gotta love that. Entertainment, seriously.

Here's my story: I studied women's studies, for personal reasons. Which is not always a good idea. Anyways, I tried to figure out what was up with me, why I didn't feel like I belonged between women. Needless to say, I didn't figure out anything about myself there. It was fascinating material, I learned a lot, but it was seriously lacking in anything concerning gender variance. Even queer theory, the way it was treated in class, was more about sexual orientation than gender identity. The closest we got, for me personally, was a class about the construction of masculinity.

In my mind, back then, I had a hard time not getting stuck in some ideas, even though they didn't fit my life. I dated a straight white middle class cis dude, even wanted to submit to him, had a thing for sexual violence, these where things I struggled with a lot. Now, I can't see why it would be problematic, as a personal choice. Feminism has started to mean something less dogmatic and constricted for me, fortunately.

I do remember reading my first BDSM-story there, actually. Yes. As study material for a course about politics of the erotic. I looked it up recently, because I was curious. It was a leather dyke story by Pat Califia. I like some of Pat's stuff. But this one was pretty harsh. Right now, I'm someone who's seen a couple of things in the kinky department, and it's still outside my comfort zone. Back then, it was way too much.

Study material. Who would've thought. Don't tell my parents!

 

[Allyourbase]

Doublepost. Internet hickup. And here is a picture of a

 

[Allyourbase]

Also, I might be too easy on people, but I don't get why visviva2's post is still topic of conversation. I get why some of us are offended. (Personally, I gave the leatherwomen comment the benefit of the doubt, had some more issues with the 'let me tell you what first wave feminism is'-thing.) He jumped in, stepped on some toes, o.k. I'm... more interested in the original topic, honestly.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Which Califia story was it? Doc and Fluff?

 

[KoPilot]

Also, I might be too easy on people, but I don't get why visviva2's post is still topic of conversation. I get why some of us are offended. (Personally, I gave the leatherwomen comment the benefit of the doubt, had some more issues with the 'let me tell you what first wave feminism is'-thing.) He jumped in, stepped on some toes, o.k. I'm... more interested in the original topic, honestly.

Yeah same :V

Here, have some Cliff Pervocracy:

http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-meanings-of-bdsm.html

 

[Stella_Omega]

I bet it was Doc And Fluff-- that shit's both bleak and Second Wave as hell.

It also includes some F/F brutality, along with every other brand of brutality-- all in fairly small doses, mind you.

 

[visviva2]

Witch burning postponed

Glad to see the thread has moved on...

However, I'm going to continue on just a little about a few things.

Since it's Stella's thread and she still insists my original post was nothing to do with feminism and was instead just "troll fodder" I have to say that I feel I have every right to make a few observations about feminist related issues since I was heavily involved in the Second Wave feminist movement back in the late 60s and early 70s.

My comments did not offer any great insights, but I never claimed they did.

That's no reason to attack me and label my post "troll fodder"...

I was interested to read Dyslexicea's most recent post. Don't worry, I'm not so obsessive or self absorbed that I'm going to go into a long boring forensic analysis of what she said.

Of course, we obviously still disagree almost totally, and there are plenty of misrepresentations or questionable statements. It's simply not worthwhile going into all that in any detail. I'm sure I would not change anyone's mind about anything.

But I will say it was a revelation to read a post by her that was coherent and quite different in tone to her previous post.

Still there were the continued attempts to be insulting by calling me "a poor defenseless little man" and so on... Ho hum.

It's the same tactic used in her previous post when she claimed that my comment about being disappointed I could not join in discussions in a women's consciousness raising group my then wife had organised by saying "Your ex-wife was protecting you and your stupidly from being brutalized." I never said my ex-wife did not want me to participate. No one said I couldn't join in. The fact is I excluded myself. Quite obviously the purpose of the group was to allow women to talk in a situation where men would not dominate the discussion as usual. I understood this and accepted it.

I was still disappointed.

But so what? It's not such a big deal to make a small personal observation about my involvement in the feminist movement back then. And YES, I was actively involved - not just a passive supporter.

I could have made some further more interesting comments, but I no longer feel inclined to bother... Why should I take the time to contribue to a thread when the OP would obviously rather I just went away?

More concerning is the claim by Dyslexicea that I am homophobic. This is simply not the case. Apparently ANY criticism of any gay or lesbian activity of any kind means you're "homophobic"...

It's this kind of blatant twisting of facts and the attempt to label someone as the "enemy" if they disagree with you or say something you disapprove of that I really object to.

In reality, my support for and involvement in the Women's Lib movement (as we called it back then) was motivated by a belief that women should have the right to be whatever they wanted to be. Whether that was lesbian, submissive, Dominant, or anything else. I have ALWAYS supported gay and lesbian rights, but that doesn't mean I think that gay and lesbian people are more perfect than anyone else and are beyond criticism.

There are issues in all groups and in every society. My mistake was thinking this forum was a welcoming place to discuss such things...

I can handle being called a "dickhead" or anything else by someone who I don't really have any respect for anyway. I still don't think it's the right way to conduct a debate or discussion on Lit, but hey not everyone is able to resist the easy option... Attack and abuse is so much easier than actually putting forward an argument.

The reason this thread exists is to discuss the aspects of feminism Stella has mentioned as OP and other related issues. Anyone should be able to have a say as long as they're not simply trying to cause trouble. It's also her role to encourage a positive debate, and by not objecting to me wrongly being labelled as homophobic and calling me a troll Stella has failed to maintain the kind of objective and open environment that makes any thread of ongoing value.

Whatever my failings as a Lit poster my be, this is a big FAIL for Stella who has so much experience in dealing with all manner of topics. I really expected better...

If a post like mine was not especially relevant or to the point it should simply have been ignored. Then the discussion would have moved on.... It was not my intention to cause offense to anyone.

For example, when I mentioned man-haters I was not referring to Dyslexicea. My comment was in reference to something Stella wrote in reply to one of my posts. Namely: "Some women have personal and immediate reasons for hating male guts, and who are you to tell them how to frame their anger..."

I was referring to the group of people mentioned by Stella or more accurately to any such group whoever they may be --- not to any specific group or person. Mainly I was disagreeing that such people had a right to "frame their anger" in abusive language. Deslexicea was only indirectly my target. I was really talking about ANY group who tried to use abuse and intimidation as a way of shutting down comment they didn't like or agree with,

Anyway, I think it's all a waste of time now. Stella has obviously decided she's not going to give me any oxygen or encourage any further posts from me. So this will be my last post to this thread.

I always thought of Stella as a champion of anyone's right to post and comment even if she did not agree with them entirely or at all. But I haven't seen any sign of that here. It really lowers the respect I used to have for her. Not that she will lose any sleep over that.

I hadn't intended to get so involved in posting to Lit as I really don't have the time. I'm supposed to be busy writing two books that are due for publication next year. These are academic style books on the history of cultural heritage, which is my area of expertise. Not works of fiction.

I thought the occasional post to Lit might be a nice way to have a break from trawling through my research notes as I put the book manuscripts together. Obviously I didn't think very carefully about what I was posting -- and I accept responsibility for whatever shortcomings my post had as a consequence.

If anyone saw my comments as questionable or had serious disagreements with what I said they were welcome to post accordingly. That's was what I expected and I'm always willing to be corrected or have any faulty thinking pointed out in a positive way.

What I was not expecting is that I would be attacked by other posters and effectively shut out by the OP. The result is that I no longer feel welcome here.

No, I don't expect anyone to care especially... and I'm certainly not intimidated or willing to be silenced. If I thought it was worthwhile I'd continue to post in this thread. But I don't feel that way...

My final suggestion here is that the "Free Speech" on the Lit masthead should be modified to read "Free Speech - as long as you only post what people want to hear". Edited to add: This doesn't mean I expect or want to be protected from dissenting views or contrary opinions. That's all totally fine. Even the insults don't really bother me, as mostly they're based on false or mistaken interpretations of what I actually said or think.

But it does seem that a few individuals or minority groups (NOT pointing at anyone in particular except those who are self-identified above) feel that they have the right to flame anyone who makes any comment they don't like or agree with that refers to them in even the most general way. I don't think this is a healthy attitude... but maybe it's just the way of the world.

 

[Keroin]

http://www.comedycentral.com/video-...umer-uncensored---gang-bang?xrs=share_twitter

This video is not available in Canada.

I am offended.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Dude. Duuuude. You are horribly offended, yep everyone understands that.

This is indeed a free speech site, but there is no rule that says you get a sparkly tiara every time you post here.